Paradox of vu

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Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:29 am

Paradox of vu - so named with poetic license.

Underlying/Overlying themes:
    1. Déjà vu, Jamais vu and Presque vu
    2. Déjà entendu and Déjà vécu.

I am deeply troubled by most of the explanations I have heard for Déjà vu in particular especially when I start considering things like intuition. I will not mention the offending disciplines here as I am more interested in a reasonable but general discussion on the topic of Déjà vu.

Despite the previous paragraph the main topic is "Paradox of the sensed" but I am also interested in everyone's thoughts on the subconscious and the conscious. Some people believe the subconscious does not exist. I don't mind if we do not get to talk about "Paradox of the sensed" as that statement might not even make sense to some people - however Déjà vu, conscious and subconscious are things I am sure most of us have heard of.

I would suggest that Déjà vu is some sort of paradoxical effect.

Déjà vu gives us intuition into the mind-body problem and I imagine is related somehow to consciousness. Déjà vu may even be some paradox between the conscious and the brain.

I would lastly like to add that despite the offending disciplines offering what they believe to be rock solid explanations of Déjà vu - the human brain and conscious persist as marvelous enigmas.

:-k
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:54 pm

I would also like to say Deja Vu is not the case of forgotten memory. I specifically know the case of remembering a forgotten memory, and it does not produce the feeling of deja vu.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Gloominary » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:26 am

Sometimes it might come from dreaming about something happening, and then a similar event coincidentally happening.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:42 am

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:I would also like to say Deja Vu is not the case of forgotten memory. I specifically know the case of remembering a forgotten memory, and it does not produce the feeling of deja vu.

I find this very interesting. I too believe that déjà vu is not the case of forgotten memory. I believe you are correct when you say that the case of remembering a forgotten memory does not produce the feeling of déjà vu. I say this because when I remember a forgotten memory the feeling I get from that is more like relief or just a flat emotionless feeling; sometimes I feel disappointed at the memory retrieval. Déjà vu on the other hand is more like a feeling of familiarity. I don't feel like I have a feeling of recollection.

I guess what I am trying to express here, is that to me:
    1. déjà vu seems like a feeling.
    2. the end result of recollection either produces a feeling or it doesn't.

The produced feelings of recollection for me are:
    1. relief
    2. disappointment
Sometimes recollection does not even produce a feeling.

Just to reiterate: I don't feel like I have a feeling of recollection.

:-k
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:04 am

Gloominary wrote:Sometimes it might come from dreaming about something happening, and then a similar event coincidentally happening.

I know what you mean - I will say however that I have had this experience and I did not get déjà vu from it. That is not to say that it is not plausible especially when I consider that I have had dreams that I do not remember.

I would like to add here that the brains chemistry is different when we are asleep compared to when we are awake.

It has been a long time since I have had déjà vu and I am not too sure I remember the exact feeling. Do you get déjà vu very often?

:D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby James S Saint » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:10 am

Déjà vu is a biochemical hiccup in the brain. The sense of familiarity can be manufactured and is at times, inadvertently formed due to improper chemical balance or tone. Getting good solid dream sleep helps prevent the sensation as the brain more successfully attempts to find a better biochemical balance while dreaming.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:31 am

James S Saint wrote:Déjà vu is a biochemical hiccup in the brain. The sense of familiarity can be manufactured and is at times, inadvertently formed due to improper chemical balance or tone. Getting good solid dream sleep helps prevent the sensation as the brain more successfully attempts to find a better biochemical balance while dreaming.

It makes sense at the body level except for one thing; neural transmission can be chemical or electrical. I totally agree that getting good solid dream sleep allows the brain to find a better biochemical balance. I have no doubt the sense of familiarity can be manufactured. Do you think maybe that we manufacture time too? I know it is off topic but I would be interested to know what you think.

:D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby James S Saint » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:56 pm

encode_decode wrote:neural transmission can be chemical or electrical.

I don't see the relevance. Neurons are bioelectric. They CAN BE triggered by EMR, pressure, or chemical balance. In today's polluted and disrupted diseased, chemical soup environment, chemical imbalance is the far more common affecter. You don't hear much about "mind-altering EMR" (excluding governing and military use) or "mind-altering pressure", but you hear a great deal about "mind-altering drugs" and "neurotoxins". There is a reason for that being the case.

encode_decode wrote:Do you think maybe that we manufacture time too? I know it is off topic but I would be interested to know what you think.

Again, I'm uncertain of the question. Do you mean, "do we manufacture our sense of time"? Time is merely the measure of relative change, how much one thing is changing relative to others. Our sense of time is certainly "manufactured" by our neurology and can be altered pretty easily by anything that disturbs our neurology. Sleeping is a process of strongly altering our neurology, largely by shutting down major portions of process activity. During those moments, our sense of time is certainly altered. To keep accurate time, one must be constantly relating one activity to others and that requires consciousness.

On a personal note, I have experienced periods in my life wherein I would awaken myself within seconds of the exact time I had previously decided to wake up. In one case, I woke up, eyes still closed, raise my hand up over the alarm clock and started to push the snooze button just at the very same moment that the alarm triggered. I am still amazed that any part of my mind could have kept that degree of time accuracy throughout my hours of sleep. But then, I am amazed by many miraculous things the mind can do.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:09 am

James S Saint wrote:I don't see the relevance. Neurons are bioelectric. They CAN BE triggered by EMR, pressure, or chemical balance. In today's polluted and disrupted diseased, chemical soup environment, chemical imbalance is the far more common affecter. You don't hear much about "mind-altering EMR" (excluding governing and military use) or "mind-altering pressure", but you hear a great deal about "mind-altering drugs" and "neurotoxins". There is a reason for that being the case.

Fair enough. I think there is relevance because the electrical synapse I imagine would be prone to malfunction. I am however inclined to agree when you say chemical imbalance is the more common factor.

James S Saint wrote:Again, I'm uncertain of the question. Do you mean, "do we manufacture our sense of time"? Time is merely the measure of relative change, how much one thing is changing relative to others. Our sense of time is certainly "manufactured" by our neurology and can be altered pretty easily by anything that disturbs our neurology. Sleeping is a process of strongly altering our neurology, largely by shutting down major portions of process activity. During those moments, our sense of time is certainly altered. To keep accurate time, one must be constantly relating one activity to others and that requires consciousness.

You may have been uncertain of the question however I think your answer is great. I appreciate your willingness to go off topic with me for a moment and provide an answer. Thanks for that James.

James S Saint wrote:On a personal note, I have experienced periods in my life wherein I would awaken myself within seconds of the exact time I had previously decided to wake up. In one case, I woke up, eyes still closed, raise my hand up over the alarm clock and started to push the snooze button just at the very same moment that the alarm triggered. I am still amazed that any part of my mind could have kept that degree of time accuracy throughout my hours of sleep. But then, I am amazed by many miraculous things the mind can do.

I too am amazed by the mind, and your experiences here illustrate just how amazing the mind can be. I can appreciate this anecdote and I found it very interesting. I also find it interesting how the mind can adjust to different tasks in different ways - Myself for instance can store a lot of temporary information for quick recall when I am writing program code - at times I find myself performing actions automatically based on this temporary information - yet when I do other things in life I can be hopeless at storing temporary information, for instance trying to store ten items of a shopping list in my head - you can be sure that when I walk out of the shop I will either have seven things or things I didn't even plan on getting.
:D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Amorphos » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:01 pm

Déjà vu is in my experience, the remembering of something not from memory as if another life. An example; a friend of mine was traveling to the coast, and to a part and on a road he had [allegedly] not gone before. Upon reaching near the top of a steep hill he said to the others in the car, ‘there is a small castle just over the hill’, and a few seconds later one was revealed in the valley below. Easily explained away of course, but I wont be doing that here because I am going to take it as real such to explore it meaning. If I say it isn’t true I don’t think I’d be doing it justice.
If true then…

We could say that in another life he had travelled to said region or lived there, and thus the experience [I think that it is an experience and not merely information is important] was somehow remembered. In hypnotic regression people remember past lives and I doubt everyone has been a king or someone famous, but mostly people seem to get visions of well known characters [though often not too]. at a guess if we looked into all such cases, we would probably find multiple instances of the same people, kings and whathaveyou, being ‘remembered’ as if to be a past life. So I’ll skip straight past that one too; what we are left with in short, is a zone of memories and lives, something akin to the akashik book of records [history] in hinduism.
Thing is, to know what anything means it must be experienced and that experience must be personal. Otherwise we’d just be talking about information, and yet no amount of info will tell us what and who we are, nor what an experience of said knowledge is.

Ergo, to read from ‘the book’, one has to be taken to or given the experience, or otherwise you cannot know what any of that means. It may or may not be an illusion e.g. if it is not your memory, but to read from the book you have to go into the experience such to know what it means.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:10 am

Amorphos wrote:Déjà vu is in my experience, the remembering of something not from memory as if another life. An example; a friend of mine was traveling to the coast, and to a part and on a road he had [allegedly] not gone before. Upon reaching near the top of a steep hill he said to the others in the car, ‘there is a small castle just over the hill’, and a few seconds later one was revealed in the valley below. Easily explained away of course, but I wont be doing that here because I am going to take it as real such to explore it meaning. If I say it isn’t true I don’t think I’d be doing it justice.
If true then…

I love the anecdote. I know some people seem to think that it can be easily explained away but they are the ones who have settled for one possibility. Justice is key here I think and I will retain the open mind when contemplating your discourse.

Amorphos wrote:We could say that in another life he had travelled to said region or lived there, and thus the experience [I think that it is an experience and not merely information is important] was somehow remembered. In hypnotic regression people remember past lives and I doubt everyone has been a king or someone famous, but mostly people seem to get visions of well known characters [though often not too]. at a guess if we looked into all such cases, we would probably find multiple instances of the same people, kings and whathaveyou, being ‘remembered’ as if to be a past life. So I’ll skip straight past that one too; what we are left with in short, is a zone of memories and lives, something akin to the akashik book of records [history] in hinduism.
Thing is, to know what anything means it must be experienced and that experience must be personal. Otherwise we’d just be talking about information, and yet no amount of info will tell us what and who we are, nor what an experience of said knowledge is.

I have not read {akashik book of records [history] in hinduism} - maybe one day I will get the privilege. I do however like this concept of zones of memories - for me it is like things that escape the butterfly effect. Even when we die we have left behind our impression - our impacts - our legacy and what ever else. We imprint ourselves and this does not go away after we die - it could just become diluted over time, nevertheless our impression on life remains.

Amorphos wrote:Ergo, to read from ‘the book’, one has to be taken to or given the experience, or otherwise you cannot know what any of that means. It may or may not be an illusion e.g. if it is not your memory, but to read from the book you have to go into the experience such to know what it means.

Agreed.

:D

There are many paradoxes in life especially with humans and animals and even when we find answers we should still keep and open mind to things that may prove to be better truth than that which came before.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Gloominary » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:16 am

encode_decode wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Sometimes it might come from dreaming about something happening, and then a similar event coincidentally happening.

I know what you mean - I will say however that I have had this experience and I did not get déjà vu from it. That is not to say that it is not plausible especially when I consider that I have had dreams that I do not remember.

I would like to add here that the brains chemistry is different when we are asleep compared to when we are awake.

It has been a long time since I have had déjà vu and I am not too sure I remember the exact feeling. Do you get déjà vu very often?

:D

I don't get deja vu anymore, now that I stopped remembering my dreams because of a sinus condition.

Yea every brain is different, some people might've never had the sensation of deja vu, and different things might inspire it in different people.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:22 am

Gloominary wrote:
encode_decode wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Sometimes it might come from dreaming about something happening, and then a similar event coincidentally happening.

I know what you mean - I will say however that I have had this experience and I did not get déjà vu from it. That is not to say that it is not plausible especially when I consider that I have had dreams that I do not remember.

I would like to add here that the brains chemistry is different when we are asleep compared to when we are awake.

It has been a long time since I have had déjà vu and I am not too sure I remember the exact feeling. Do you get déjà vu very often?

:D

I don't get deja vu anymore, now that I stopped remembering my dreams because of a sinus condition.

Yea every brain is different, some people might've never had the sensation of deja vu, and different things might inspire it in different people.

I am sorry to here about your sinus condition - I hope at least you find some relief of its burden. I totally agree that every brain is different - very true that different things might inspire deja vu in different people - even brain chemistry and electricity remain possibilities. In the end I think there will be some sort of convergence to an answer.

:D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:20 am

This is from David Copperfield, simply described by Dickens

We have all some experience of a feeling, that comes over us occasionally, of what we are saying and doing having been said and done before, in a remote time - of our having been surrounded, dim ages ago, by the same faces, objects, and circumstances - of our knowing perfectly what will be said next, as if we suddenly remember it!
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:50 am

A Shieldmaiden wrote:This is from David Copperfield, simply described by Dickens

We have all some experience of a feeling, that comes over us occasionally, of what we are saying and doing having been said and done before, in a remote time - of our having been surrounded, dim ages ago, by the same faces, objects, and circumstances - of our knowing perfectly what will be said next, as if we suddenly remember it!

That is quite well written - it makes me want to go and read a whole bunch of Charles Dickens now. Thank you A Shieldmaiden, I consider that a gift.

:D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:08 am

Thank you A Shieldmaiden, I consider that a gift.


me too :D

seems to validate the posts I just made in Peter K's thread
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:20 am

morph suggests unconscious involvement in a natural growth cycle.


the word "unconscious" in the above statement is obviously not absolute.

seems throughout the history of our species individuals in every generation caught a glimpse(s) of what I labelled the metamorphosis of our species.

Some expressed their glimpse in prose ... some in poetry ... some in religious sentiment ... some in philosophical sentiment ... perhaps some even in scientific theory.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:10 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:seems throughout the history of our species individuals in every generation caught a glimpse(s) of what I labelled the metamorphosis of our species.

Some expressed their glimpse in prose ... some in poetry ... some in religious sentiment ... some in philosophical sentiment ... perhaps some even in scientific theory.

I believe the idea of metamorphosis to be quite possible just from the idea of cause and effect - I say this more as a bodily statement in that I imagine it possible to come back as a butterfly. To the spirit then - I would imagine it also possible that the spirit is able to morph. The spirit has to be something special; imagine that the spirit grows but then attaches to a butterfly. Who knows some of the creatures out there might be more special than we believe.

Keep in mind though: I am not entirely sure what I a writing here - just that it was inspired by what you wrote pilgrim-seeker_tom.

:D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:36 am

encode_decode wrote:Keep in mind though: I am not entirely sure what I a writing here - just that it was inspired by what you wrote pilgrim-seeker_tom. :D


I rarely do! ... know that is ... what I am writing ... if you read my posts you will know what I mean. Often enough ... when I read my posts a day or so later I think to myself ... whoa! where did those thoughts come from? :D

Seems they emanate from an "other" ... someone else's post.

Suppose the well thought out posts and the spontaneous ... uncensored free fall ... posts both have their place though.

Personally I favour the spontaneous style ... the results are often quite surprising.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:37 am

Xunzian ... a respected ... long term ... member of ILP wrote recently ...

A central question of my philosophy, one I struggle with on a daily basis is "Am I reading the text or is the text reading me?"


Yeah ... he uses the word "reading" ... yet ... is he expressing the same/similar phenomenon?
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:44 am

These last few posts ... your posts included ... remind me of William Jame's term "Stream of Consciousness".

Jame's thoughts were perhaps a giant step forward ... yet ... constrained to the individual ... ergo: Jame's confined his theory to the individual ... ergo: he placed it in a 'box' ... he placed boundaries around the concept ... an electric fence so to speak ... that one dare not attempt to pass through.

I'm confident there have been attempts at a "stream of consciousness" beyond the individual ... ergo: among two or more people ... I even attempted it here on ILP some time ago. The hurdle/obstacle that inevitably dampens success is the dominance of ego and virtual absence of empathy.

Perhaps persistent effort will one day pay dividends ... perhaps it already is in the arena of "Collective Wisdom".
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:10 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Xunzian ... a respected ... long term ... member of ILP wrote recently ...

A central question of my philosophy, one I struggle with on a daily basis is "Am I reading the text or is the text reading me?"


Yeah ... he uses the word "reading" ... yet ... is he expressing the same/similar phenomenon?

Actually that is quite interesting. In another post I make I mention the Ouroboros - the dragon that eats its own tail - in this sense "reading" text being recreated in the "readers mind" and the "readers mind text" being recreated on the medium(paper or screen) for eternity. This is what constitutes the text.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:22 am

Ouroboros is an interesting topic ... in the context of Kundalini ... let me stick with the current topic for the moment.

Perhaps collective stream of consciousness obeys the same natural laws of speaking ... St Augustine taught these laws to me ... paraphrasing ... the syllable we utter must first die to make room for the birth of the next syllable ... otherwise speaking would be limited to one long ... very long ... monosyllable.

A personal experience here in the community where I live ... I communicate on occasion with a middle aged Chinese woman who was born deaf and never learned any sophisticated sign language. She speaks in guttural tones ... nonetheless she still uses pitch, tone and volume to differentiate her thoughts ... really quite interesting. She is the only Chinese person I can communicate with. :D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:45 am

I like your posts pilgrim-seeker_tom
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Perhaps collective stream of consciousness obeys the same natural laws of speaking ... St Augustine taught these laws to me ... paraphrasing ... the syllable we utter must first die to make room for the birth of the next syllable ... otherwise speaking would be limited to one long ... very long ... monosyllable.

Actually when you take the "Stream of Consciousness" into account then the Ouroboros is very applicable and so is yin yang for that matter.

On the ouroboros
Wikipedia wrote:It also represents the infinite cycle of nature's endless creation and destruction, life and death and despair.[5]


On yin yang
Wikipedia wrote:In Chinese philosophy, yin and yang (also yin-yang or yin yang, 陰陽 yīnyáng "dark—bright") describe how seemingly opposite or contrary forces may actually be complementary, interconnected, and interdependent in the natural world, and how they may give rise to each other as they interrelate to one another.


Each moment of consciousness has to die to give birth to the next.

:D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:04 am

encode_decode wrote:Each moment of consciousness has to die to give birth to the next.

:D


'moment' may be a rather long interval of time :-) ... though I'm inclined to believe the theory of 'discrete' frames of consciousness ... death and birth in a rhythmic dance with each other.

encode_decode ... perhaps our e-exchanges have achieved ... albeit temporary I'm sure ... a convergence ... or at least a partial convergence ... of two independent consciousness(s) ... perhaps. :D

speaking of Yin Yang ... have you read this short article on the topic ... http://chinesefortunecalendar.com/YinYang.htm

Personally I believe members of the Western Psyche are naturally inclined to 'see' Yin Yang through the prism of Western thought.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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pilgrim-seeker_tom
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