Ecmandu wrote:Why should someone who's old, fat and ugly... Just give up on sexual feelings just to fit in with society?
I don't know. Why don't you ask them? Point is, it's a choice people make in real life, and presumably it makes them happy to do so (maybe it makes them feel closer to God, or something). It's a choice that doesn't hurt anybody, not even themselves.
Ecmandu wrote:Does giving up on a dream really make someone happier? What about the additional dream of not even being old, fat and ugly?? I think someone who has a choice, and still chooses old, fat and ugly, just likes to piss people off! To get a reaction (negative connotation) from people, revolsion.
Now you're presuming to know how people feel, the motives behind their choices.
I think you're barking up the wrong tree, you're making an argument you don't need to make (i.e. you're shooting yourself in the foot). I think all you really need to argue, if I understand your ultimate objective, is that this world sucks and that if we had the power to make any of our wishes immediately come true, with 0 effort, that would clearly be the right choice. I don't think you need to argue that literally every move we make ends up causing more harm than good, just that this world sucks in general
and it's never gonna be perfect, and that your efforts to create a zombie universe and, once successful, show us all how it's done will benefit us all. I think you'd be far
more likely to get support--at least on the point that this world sucks--if you just stuck to that in your argument... so it would benefit you
, not just me, to let go of this particular point about every single move we make causing more harm than good.
^ That is, at least if your goal is to argue that our best option is to try to create zombie universes, or at least to support you in your goal to do so. If you're really just angry at the world for how it's treated you, and your agenda is to cast it all as evil so as to feel justified in flipping it the finger and rejecting it, then I can understand why the general "this world sucks" approach doesn't work for you.
Ecmandu wrote:Well... For body cohabitors; some may like picking and eating nose stuff as one of their favorite activities in life... <-- Wow, that's gotta be a rare breed. So to use tissue or handkerchief pisses them off greatly! If you choose to appease them, you are pissed off... This is all called compromise - and not very acceptable when you think about it.
So now blowing my nose is evil? What if I do it in private?
Really, Ecmandu, let it go. ^ This kind of argument only makes you look foolish. Next you're gonna tell me breathing is evil because it oppresses anti-breathing victims.
Ecmandu wrote:As for your stance against everyone being guilty to be defined as evil who defends this type of world system, or doesn't realize this truth.
I think people who don't realize this truth are evil oriented. I mean, it's so obvious to the good. It's like a serial killer who doesn't understand why people are so mad at them!!! It cannot occur to them!! But they are still evil!!!
Listen to yourself--you're saying that those who don't know that creating zombie universes are possible are evil; that people who are trying to make a difference in the world, trying to make it a better place--make this
world a better place--are evil. I said before that this was all relative. Yes, if you had the option to choose between this world and a perfect world, choosing this world would be questionable (I think it would still depend on one's motives and reasons, etc.)--but we are
making choices every day that make this world better than it could be--for example, I used to sponsor a child in Africa until I started becoming strapped for cash; now I'm a bit more financially secure so I'm looking back into sponsoring a child (preferably the same one). Now according to you, this makes me evil because the money I'd be giving that child to go to school is money that 1) some other
child doesn't get, thereby harming him/her, and 2) money that I have to give up, thereby harming myself. Why is this evil? Well, Ecmandu says, in a perfect zombie universe, you could give everybody infinite dollars with the wave of a magic wand (in fact, since they're zombies, you wouldn't have to give them anything), and since I'm choosing to sponsor a child (just one) instead of looking into the art of zombie universe creating, I'm evil. But in all fairness, I think what you have to consider is: am I making the right choice relative to not sponsoring a child at all
?--i.e. chosing to make this world one in which at least this one child gets sponsored instead of a world in which he/she doesn't?
Ecmandu wrote:As far as dissatisfaction goes...
Maybe someone writes a philosophic zombie world for themselves that has elements of dissatisfaction because they enjoy it somehow. At least it doesn't become another's dissatisfaction who doesn't want that!!
Yes, that I can agree with.
Ecmandu wrote:As far as the ease of construction...
I work on it every day, but I'm just one person ...
I can guarantee you that if 7 billion people understood the problem and looked for escape, we'd figure it out really quick!
I've seen more amazing miracles (most of them hells!!) than I have fingers...
I know for a fact that if you get 7 billion people to say, "this is complete bullshit for this reason and completely unacceptable". That we will actually move to a new plane of existence.
Perhaps you're right--I'm not one to say--but I know that this demands convincing, and convincing demands evidence and demonstration. I'm guessing the reason most people reject you and your ideas is that it sounds like a bunch of hocus-pocus mumbo-jumbo, and we're biased towards rejecting and mocking that sort of stuff. But if you could show
the world how the creation of zombie universe is done, that would go a long way towards changing people's minds.
Ultimate Philosophie 1001 wrote:I said it before and I said it again, I dont want to die and be reborn a happy person who eat-meat, I want to be born a tofu vegetarian who is unhappy, can't stand happy people who torture animals. I want to blow off cruella devilles head with a 12 gauge shotgun then rape her dead corpse.
And you can do all of that in a philosophic zombie universe without bothering anyone else.
You can make every plant and animal a philosophic zombie... You can make all the reincarnation sequences philosophic zombies, you can make cosmic consciousness a philosophic zombie.
On this note, I have another question: in philosophy, a pzombie is typically defined as a person who's exactly physically identical--particle for particle--to a real conscious, sentient human being. That being said, one should expect exactly the same behavior from a pzombie as from a real person. If you shoot a pzombie in the head and rape their corpse, you'll still go to jail.
Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Why would I want to marry a p-zombie? Im sure there are others who want to be hot lesbians with me.
Yeah, good point. Part of the joy of making love to a girl is knowing that she's getting off with me. If all there was was just the physical act of moaning and screaming and writhing, I'd probably just get ear plugs. But in real life, that's a signal to me that she's actually experiencing extreme physical pleasure, extreme physical pleasure that I'm giving her with my (hugely massive) cock (I mean, it's massive
In a pzombie universe, that would be missing... and I'd miss it.
Which brings up another point: you're talking about all the harm and pain we cause to others, but there's no mention of the pleasure. It's true that in a zombie universe, we wouldn't have to worry about harming anyone, but we'd also be giving up pleasing others, making them happy. Isn't that sort of a loss?
Which bring up another
point--if we're so evil for not rejecting this world because it's theoretically possible to choose a zombie universe instead, then aren't you evil, Ecmandu, for not choosing a "pleasure" universe--i.e. a universe in which sentient beings experience only pleasure? And be sure to create a pleasure universe in which there an infinite beings who experience infinite pleasure for all eternity--otherwise you're evil (and then talk to James about orders of infinity).