Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby Wyld » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:25 am




Yeah, that is some seriously fucked up shit. And we are normalizing this now, which will only make more of it.
"Those who attach such importance to the ought of morality and fancy that morality is destroyed if the ought is not recognized as ultimate truth, and those too who, reasoning from the level of the understanding, derive a perpetual satisfaction from being able to confront everything there is with an ought, that is, with a 'knowing better' −− and for that very reason are just as loath to be robbed of the ought −− do not see that as regards the finitude of their sphere the ought receives full recognition. But in the world of actuality itself, Reason and Law are not in such a bad way that they only ought to be... The philosophy of Kant and Fichte sets up the ought as the highest point of the resolution of the contradictions of Reason; but the truth is that the ought is only the standpoint which clings to finitude and thus to contradiction." -Hegel, Science of Logic
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby fuse » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:23 am

Only_Humean wrote:
fuse wrote:
Only_Humean wrote:Given that criminalisation only applies to extreme incitement, it's fair to say that much of the discourse that's regulated by it is the sort of discourse that is already pretty impoverished, though, isn't it?

I've followed Peterson for some time now, and nothing I've seen him say can be construed as extreme incitement. Yet, he has come close to losing his job, still may yet, and, by the University's own account, he could be tried through the courts and Human Rights Tribunals. Shutting down a voice like Peterson's is exactly the sort of impoverishment of public discourse I'm talking about.


I'm talking about criminalisation; you can of course lose your job or face a tribunal over all sorts of non-criminal activity. If your colleague Tom decides he'd rather be called Tina and addressed as a female, why do you feel that as a burdensome legal obligation rather than a matter of courtesy?

Perhaps not criminalization (although I haven't thoroughly looked into all of the relevant legal code), but still a high price to pay for say having an academic disagreement about gender identity theory as it becomes enshrined in law. Look if at this point in our conversation you think this is simply about reserving the right to be an asshole to people, I don't know what I can say to complicate that view for you.
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby Only_Humean » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:28 pm

Wyld wrote:How about this:
You have a right to do what you want to your genitals, and I have a right to call you a fucking retard and psychotic weirdo for doing it.
I think we can all live with that.


That's pretty much the way things are, isn't it? And people have the right to call you a bigot if you do that, and everyone's happy and world understanding is advanced. It's a bit precious to claim your mind is being raped by the effort.

fuse wrote:Perhaps not criminalization (although I haven't thoroughly looked into all of the relevant legal code), but still a high price to pay for say having an academic disagreement about gender identity theory as it becomes enshrined in law. Look if at this point in our conversation you think this is simply about reserving the right to be an asshole to people, I don't know what I can say to complicate that view for you.


You could explain in what contexts beyond being an asshole (or making a point for the sake of it, which may or may not be the same thing) it's important to, say, keep calling a transgender colleague by their birth name and using their birth gender pronouns to refer to them. Or in what way it's burdensome to you not to do so.

For example: for a doctor, it may be important to know their biological sex in planning surgery or prescribing drugs. I am fairly sure the law doesn't prevent doctors from asking such questions.
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:06 pm

The world is insane.

40 years ago, they wouldnt hire transgenders and it was illegal to be transgender.

Nowadays, its illegal to bully or insult a transgender even on accident.

The world is fucking insane.

When will we just be reasonable and just hire people based on their ability to do a job?

I would even hire a woman or a nigger if she or the nigger could do the job right.
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby James S Saint » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:27 am

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:The world is fucking insane.

So maybe you're getting it?
Yet realize that you are a part of it all?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby Wyld » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:29 am

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:The world is insane.

40 years ago, they wouldnt hire transgenders and it was illegal to be transgender.

Nowadays, its illegal to bully or insult a transgender even on accident.

The world is fucking insane.

When will we just be reasonable and just hire people based on their ability to do a job?

I would even hire a woman or a nigger if she or the nigger could do the job right.



Yep.
"Those who attach such importance to the ought of morality and fancy that morality is destroyed if the ought is not recognized as ultimate truth, and those too who, reasoning from the level of the understanding, derive a perpetual satisfaction from being able to confront everything there is with an ought, that is, with a 'knowing better' −− and for that very reason are just as loath to be robbed of the ought −− do not see that as regards the finitude of their sphere the ought receives full recognition. But in the world of actuality itself, Reason and Law are not in such a bad way that they only ought to be... The philosophy of Kant and Fichte sets up the ought as the highest point of the resolution of the contradictions of Reason; but the truth is that the ought is only the standpoint which clings to finitude and thus to contradiction." -Hegel, Science of Logic
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby Wyld » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:29 am

Shock, the idea of hiring people based on merit??


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
"Those who attach such importance to the ought of morality and fancy that morality is destroyed if the ought is not recognized as ultimate truth, and those too who, reasoning from the level of the understanding, derive a perpetual satisfaction from being able to confront everything there is with an ought, that is, with a 'knowing better' −− and for that very reason are just as loath to be robbed of the ought −− do not see that as regards the finitude of their sphere the ought receives full recognition. But in the world of actuality itself, Reason and Law are not in such a bad way that they only ought to be... The philosophy of Kant and Fichte sets up the ought as the highest point of the resolution of the contradictions of Reason; but the truth is that the ought is only the standpoint which clings to finitude and thus to contradiction." -Hegel, Science of Logic
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby Wyld » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:30 am

then how would women and minority immigrants get jobs?????????????????????????



UNFAIR!
"Those who attach such importance to the ought of morality and fancy that morality is destroyed if the ought is not recognized as ultimate truth, and those too who, reasoning from the level of the understanding, derive a perpetual satisfaction from being able to confront everything there is with an ought, that is, with a 'knowing better' −− and for that very reason are just as loath to be robbed of the ought −− do not see that as regards the finitude of their sphere the ought receives full recognition. But in the world of actuality itself, Reason and Law are not in such a bad way that they only ought to be... The philosophy of Kant and Fichte sets up the ought as the highest point of the resolution of the contradictions of Reason; but the truth is that the ought is only the standpoint which clings to finitude and thus to contradiction." -Hegel, Science of Logic
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:20 pm

Ucci said i have to edit my post, but i dont see an edit button anywhere.
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:23 pm

Im not allowed to get a job because im transgender. Why are you hypocrits preaching to me about job equality? Youre all a bunch of bigots.
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:24 pm

Even other transgenders wont hire me. There all a bunch of bigots and fascists. Everyone is a bigot and fascist. They are all meat eaters and evil. The whole world is evil. It's all a giant conspiracy against good.
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby Wyld » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:17 am

"Those who attach such importance to the ought of morality and fancy that morality is destroyed if the ought is not recognized as ultimate truth, and those too who, reasoning from the level of the understanding, derive a perpetual satisfaction from being able to confront everything there is with an ought, that is, with a 'knowing better' −− and for that very reason are just as loath to be robbed of the ought −− do not see that as regards the finitude of their sphere the ought receives full recognition. But in the world of actuality itself, Reason and Law are not in such a bad way that they only ought to be... The philosophy of Kant and Fichte sets up the ought as the highest point of the resolution of the contradictions of Reason; but the truth is that the ought is only the standpoint which clings to finitude and thus to contradiction." -Hegel, Science of Logic
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby Wyld » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:18 am

I would never hire someone who chopped off their genitals because they thought themselves to be a different sex than they really are.

No way. No job for that insanity.
"Those who attach such importance to the ought of morality and fancy that morality is destroyed if the ought is not recognized as ultimate truth, and those too who, reasoning from the level of the understanding, derive a perpetual satisfaction from being able to confront everything there is with an ought, that is, with a 'knowing better' −− and for that very reason are just as loath to be robbed of the ought −− do not see that as regards the finitude of their sphere the ought receives full recognition. But in the world of actuality itself, Reason and Law are not in such a bad way that they only ought to be... The philosophy of Kant and Fichte sets up the ought as the highest point of the resolution of the contradictions of Reason; but the truth is that the ought is only the standpoint which clings to finitude and thus to contradiction." -Hegel, Science of Logic
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby Wyld » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:19 am

Stand up against insanity. Vote for truth.


Just say No to trans.


LGBT: Let's Get Behind Trump
"Those who attach such importance to the ought of morality and fancy that morality is destroyed if the ought is not recognized as ultimate truth, and those too who, reasoning from the level of the understanding, derive a perpetual satisfaction from being able to confront everything there is with an ought, that is, with a 'knowing better' −− and for that very reason are just as loath to be robbed of the ought −− do not see that as regards the finitude of their sphere the ought receives full recognition. But in the world of actuality itself, Reason and Law are not in such a bad way that they only ought to be... The philosophy of Kant and Fichte sets up the ought as the highest point of the resolution of the contradictions of Reason; but the truth is that the ought is only the standpoint which clings to finitude and thus to contradiction." -Hegel, Science of Logic
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby Only_Humean » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:55 am

Keep the political trolling out of Phil, please.
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby fuse » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:53 am

Only_Humean wrote:
fuse wrote:Perhaps not criminalization (although I haven't thoroughly looked into all of the relevant legal code), but still a high price to pay for say having an academic disagreement about gender identity theory as it becomes enshrined in law. Look if at this point in our conversation you think this is simply about reserving the right to be an asshole to people, I don't know what I can say to complicate that view for you.

You could explain in what contexts beyond being an asshole (or making a point for the sake of it, which may or may not be the same thing) it's important to, say, keep calling a transgender colleague by their birth name and using their birth gender pronouns to refer to them. Or in what way it's burdensome to you not to do so.

I can describe a little of my experience. At least two people in my wider circle of friends are trans, and I've been in a classroom environment where I sat next to a male-to-female trans person who took the female pronouns and new chosen first name. I've respected their desires to be called "she." I did slip up with my classmate in the beginning -- accidentally saying "he" and realizing it immediately -- because the way she looked and behaved to me was so typically male that that gendered impression was stuck pretty rigid in my head and furthermore persisted despite the fact that I altered the way I addressed the person.

Exercising common decency doesn't require the adoption of a particular identity theory. But when you legislate the use of pronouns, including completely made up words, as a reflection of a particular theory of identity, this enforces certain beliefs about gender that to my knowledge are not settled. For his part, Dr. Peterson believes these embedded beliefs about gender to be unhealthy and harmful.
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:09 am

What is common decency nowadays?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!


Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby fuse » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:30 pm

WendyDarling wrote:What is common decency nowadays?

Well my transgender classmate happened to be somewhat obnoxious and off socially. She would pound on her laptop keyboard in class to the point that no one could focus and ask questions to show off what she knew. But I got to know her since she sat next me. One time she was writing a paper for another class and she made some comment about having a great argument but getting marked down for her writing. I had been a writing tutor/consultant off and on so I offered to look at her essay and give her feedback. So we stayed after one day and it was cool.
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Re: Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris on Truth

Postby Wyld » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:09 am

"Transgender" is a serious mental illness. We need to be helping these very confused people, not pretending it is some kind of 'right' or 'courage' to be that way.
"Those who attach such importance to the ought of morality and fancy that morality is destroyed if the ought is not recognized as ultimate truth, and those too who, reasoning from the level of the understanding, derive a perpetual satisfaction from being able to confront everything there is with an ought, that is, with a 'knowing better' −− and for that very reason are just as loath to be robbed of the ought −− do not see that as regards the finitude of their sphere the ought receives full recognition. But in the world of actuality itself, Reason and Law are not in such a bad way that they only ought to be... The philosophy of Kant and Fichte sets up the ought as the highest point of the resolution of the contradictions of Reason; but the truth is that the ought is only the standpoint which clings to finitude and thus to contradiction." -Hegel, Science of Logic
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