Truth is

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Truth is

Postby Some Guy in History » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:54 pm

Truth is extremely devious.

No it isnt, it's Simple!

Truth is subjective.

No it isn't, it's Objective!





Take out the 'no it isn'ts' and replace with 'truth is also'.

Not a single lie has been spoken, not a single contradiction uttered.

No lie has been told in eternity.

Every lie has been told.

The truth has never been told.

The truth has been told in full.


Still, no lie has been spoken or typed, or introduced to your eyes or ears.

I refuse to explain this concept, is more truthful than any other truths in this post. Not that I can not, but that I 'refuse'.

The 'I' is entirely debatable. Which 'I'. This is a distraction from my refusal to explain the concept of this thread. Have fun.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Along The Way » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:07 pm

Everything is truthful, but some things are more truthful than others.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Some Guy in History » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:12 pm

Along The Way wrote:Everything is truthful, but some things are more truthful than others.


That's like saying that evil is taught more openly than good.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Along The Way » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:16 pm

Random Factor wrote:
Along The Way wrote:Everything is truthful, but some things are more truthful than others.


That's like saying that evil is taught more openly than good.


I'm not following.

Can you flesh out a bit what you're getting at?
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Re: Truth is

Postby Some Guy in History » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:22 pm

Along The Way wrote:
Random Factor wrote:
Along The Way wrote:Everything is truthful, but some things are more truthful than others.


That's like saying that evil is taught more openly than good.


I'm not following.

Can you flesh out a bit what you're getting at?


I can, yes.
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Re: Truth is

Postby gib » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:24 pm

Oh Random, you're such a tease.

Truth is, all truth is relative. Things are true relative to a certain point of view, according to a certain source, to a certain person. In that case, sure truth is subjective and at the same time objective. It is subjective relative to a subjectivist and objective relative to an objectivist.

Also, reality is under no obligation to conform to the human rules of logic--that doesn't mean it doesn't conform, just that reality is not determined by our logic and rationalizations. Rather, it is the other way around.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Meno_ » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:47 pm

Gib, How can truth be both objective and subjective, since, once truth becomes objective, it becomes the same with it's subject, loosing it's difference with it, thereby loosing its subjectivity? Will a subjective objectivity makes sense then? -Not the idea or thought of it, but as an expression of it?
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Re: Truth is

Postby gib » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:53 pm

jerkey wrote:Gib, How can truth be both objective and subjective...


With relativism.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Meno_ » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:12 pm

gib wrote:
jerkey wrote:Gib, How can truth be both objective and subjective...


With relativism.







It may not be correct to say that an objective

subjectivism , or a subjective objectivism are relative terms

Is , not to say that relativism does not imply such.



If some truth is relative to some fact, that fact
qualifies it away from that truth or, toward that truth.





That qualification becomes a kind of movement, not
an absolute, in that regard.





It
doesn't become both, it merely demonstrates a

capacity to be used with either more or less


objectivity. The distinction between defining truth,
and qualifying it's value within differing context,

emerges or elicits differing points of view, as you
point out.



But the relative value of truth does not objectively seal up its difference with differing points of view.


When one says about truth that it is relative, a contingency arises, prompting the question, relative to what. Wouldn't the 'what' create a contingency,
without which, that particular truth could not be
potentially truthful? In that point of view, relative truth would remain just that, a possibility.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Meno_ » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:24 pm

Excuse me, Gib, the exaggerated spaces are the products of the weakness with my ability to correct grammar.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Some Guy in History » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:55 pm

See? Lying about truth is so much easier than trying to explain it, thus evil is taught more openly than good and good is far more deceptive than evil, with good and evil being the difference between ignorance and understanding, at the same time as being the difference between negativity and positivity; energy conversion being proven to convert both ways; and the difference between intent and the subtle nuances of each action themselves based on a variety of factors nor likely to be made known to everyone even if it were possible, at the same time as being the difference between insanity and sanity, that by definition alone, evil was set up to lose by being given all the losing edges and began winning by taking all the winning, whereupon it became good faster than the long term good returned to being good. It's also the difference between being inept and being competent. It's all this at the same time as also being out of whack in others, arrayed and stacked differently to varying degrees of purposeful, random and trace amounts of free will, mak8ng even the inverse and reverse possible through impossibility to find the only possible route to coexistence out of mere self preservation sans ability to reason and rationalize and still functioning through chaos and order jumbled together causing thoughts to be had erratically and inconsistently while allowing outward communication to flow logically and straightforward, concise and accurate, the difference between conscious and subconscious activity and the interaction between them, now delegated to spirits that can possess a body, the body itself and any entity powerful enough to utilize and use spirit energy to interact with others in physicality with its massive subtle force.

The underlying truth is that eternity is fucked and scarred, whored and raped and abused and twisted beyond belief. The underlying truth is that something entirely sane, rational, self-healing in spirit, is moving through it all unafraid and helping the rest of it to heal and deal with its scars and wounds and the underlying truth of that is that is far more intimidating than the usual things that go bump in the night, far scarier when you realize that they largely leave him alone and terrify so many others.

The underlying truth is that truth is preferential, truth is biased and plays favorites and the underlying truth of that is some entity somewhere anthropomorphosized with everything, giving personality and characteristics to every concept. The underlying truth is that too many reinforced it.

The underlying truth of sentience is far more important of a factor than other truths for the only way something can truly be random, is to be sentient. The underlying truth is that everything has claimed to be God. Only one thing was 100% telling the truth.

That's a lot of things blamed and credited for inspiration given, by merit of what God truly is. The underlying truth is, 'by your dumbass powers combined...'

The underlying truth of all of this is the eternal cycle and pattern breaker and reinforced by creating a new pattern and cycle of breaking patterns and cycles only to create a new pattern and cycle of both breaking and purposefully creating new ones and the underlying truth of that is that is proof that conversion, full conversion of energy, is possible on all levels and in all ways. The underlying truth is that it breaks all fates, destinies and notions of free will in the process of establishing truth from lie, reason from unreasonable, the rational from the irrational, so on and so forth.

The underlying truth of this is that it is entirely possible to take reality apart completely from within it, put it back together and not have it break and fall apart. The underlying truth is that it was still very shaken up when I did it for not even believing that it was possible until someone did it perfectly and flawlessly and that's what threw it off more than all other attempts and successes.

The underlying truth of all of this is that, at times, truth is largely useless. It takes too long and it gets reduced to shorthand styles of thought and speak that proves that in ages and eras past, humans have been much smarter than today's breed.

The underlying truth is that this shorthand style has been perfected to make all of their lies too convincing and they've been experiencing a lot of bad shit and nobody who knows feels any sympathy for them whatsoever. The underlying truth is that until unintentional met intentional and lost to intentional in terms of accepted force changing the very nature of reality, the underlying truth being that what is good, when it got the upper hand, left a lot of that idiocy in and worked around it to render it largely ineffective, and then worked to conceal that work so people believed themselves to death until they learned, walked away and never once worried about having to watch it's back or look over its shoulder.

This is all relative, sure. The underlying truth is that the overlaying truths still come into play, too. Weaving our reality constantly.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:56 pm

gib wrote:Oh Random, you're such a tease.

Truth is, all truth is relative. Things are true relative to a certain point of view, according to a certain source, to a certain person. In that case, sure truth is subjective and at the same time objective. It is subjective relative to a subjectivist and objective relative to an objectivist.

Also, reality is under no obligation to conform to the human rules of logic--that doesn't mean it doesn't conform, just that reality is not determined by our logic and rationalizations. Rather, it is the other way around.


Truth that is relative is subjective. It is not objective and logically it cannot be (due to violation of the law of non-contradiction.) Subjectivism and objectivism are OPPOSITES so they cannot both be true.

In the case of "objectivists", truth is objective but only subjectively.

Subjective objectivism =/= objectivism

The former is a type of subjectivism. Objectivism is subordinated to it. It's not real objectivism.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Some Guy in History » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:11 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:Subjectivism and objectivism are OPPOSITES so they cannot both be true.


False. They are not opposites.
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Re: Truth is

Postby James S Saint » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:16 pm

Objective truth contains subjective perspectives. There is no "subjective truth" (e.g. "the sky is green", "apples are tasty"), although there are "relative truths" (e.g. "A is large", "Mike is nice.").
Last edited by James S Saint on Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:16 pm

@RF

They are. By definition. Unless you define them in a different way. In which case you're dealing with different concepts. Such as subjectivism and subjective objectivism. These are not opposites. They are in a parent-child relationship. Subjectivism is the parent category. Subjective objectivism is its child category.

The problem is created when you confuse subjective objectivism with objectivism proper and then proceed to conclude that objectivism proper is not opposite to subjectivism.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Some Guy in History » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:31 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:@RF

They are. By definition. Unless you define them in a different way. In which case you're dealing with different concepts. Such as subjectivism and subjective objectivism. These are not opposites. They are in a parent-child relationship. Subjectivism is the parent category. Subjective objectivism is its child category.

The problem is created when you confuse subjective objectivism with objectivism proper and then proceed to conclude that objectivism proper is not opposite to subjectivism.


They problem is when you refuse to set aside the definition as false in light of truth that proves the definition as false. You want to tell me I'm wrong and then further say that if I'm right, it's defined the way you then defined it. I'm saying that that is a very convincing falsity, but still a falsity.
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Re: Truth is

Postby gib » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:27 am

jerkey wrote:It
doesn't become both, it merely demonstrates a

capacity to be used with either more or less


objectivity.


Relativism doesn't say that truth can be both one thing and its opposite at the same time, it says that which thing it is depends on what we are considering it relative to.

jerkey wrote:When one says about truth that it is relative, a contingency arises, prompting the question, relative to what. Wouldn't the 'what' create a contingency,
without which, that particular truth could not be
potentially truthful? In that point of view, relative truth would remain just that, a possibility.


When the 'what' is a person, it meets with actuality, not just possibility--actuality for that person.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Some Guy in History » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:06 pm

The truth is, in this sense, that our definitions as they stand are true, but not always true for everything.

I heard a salesman preacher in a homeless shelter the other night pitching his salespitch for his false God talking about consistency. I got pissed because he was doing the devils work in a house of the lord, no matter my reservations and distaste for such houses of religion or my belief that they themselves are a slap in the face to god, they are still designated as belonging to God. His pitch went along the lines of, 'tired of things being inconsistent, want something that is consistent and doesn't change, God, God, God.' I eventually got tired of his shit and said something in response about God being a murderer and going to Hell the same as everyone else and we'd all wind up in the same spot anyway.

The problem is when our definitions fall flat, the times when they're not true and no matter how much we want our version of consistency, it does not exist and that in itself is consistency of change and situational nuances, ethics and morals.

The truth in that sense is that our be-all-end-all definitions need to be revised, refined, etc and we are hesitant to do so just because of how much would then need defining, explaining. Much easier to push our world and our reality to accepting just one facet of a multi-faceted thing until it breaks than to do what is so difficult. And, what makes it the most difficult? All the heel-draggers, whiners and bitchers and complainers that fight against, whine, cry, make a huge fuss instead of helping clean up the mess. They avidly get in the way of those of us who are trying to clean it up, once clean, they hurricane hit the cleanliness with a new mess, making our work seemingly meaningless, more comfortable are they in their slop and their filth.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:49 pm

Truth refers to a value exceeding 1. A second layer density. Consciousness.

a value of 1 would not exist, 2 or more is needed for Contrast and Consciousness.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:30 pm

Along The Way wrote:Everything is truthful, but some things are more truthful than others.


How are you defining the word "truthful here?
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If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

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Re: Truth is

Postby Some Guy in History » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:37 pm

Truth is simply unimportant quite a lot and the lies are seemingly far more important for various reasons that will lead you on a merry dance around and around chasing distractions here, then there; all to lead you somewhere they know not where with lies and the truth of lies scattered like so many unneeded items along the way, left for those who have the nose to follow the trail of discarded clothes as we change suits and costumes along the way.

If it were any other than what it was, then it wouldn't be and for all the truths that must account for the lies, so; too; must the lies account for the truths and what they do, for how else would we ever be able to say truthfully with any lie that the lies are what made us, make us more than any truth and the truth is what breaks us down to nothing again. Until the lies break us down, then the truth builds us again. Dare to call me a truth-teller?
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Re: Truth is

Postby gib » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:30 pm

Nice avatar, history boy.
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Re: Truth is

Postby Degueulasse » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:31 pm

I am the truth. That's all that matters to me. I got me. Mr logic committed suicide long ago. I burned his books with him.
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