Along The Way wrote:gib wrote:Along The Way wrote:One problem is that no one has ever, ever, ever, found consciousness in a body.
Why should they? Consciousness only exists as a first-person phenomenon--you can't find it by looking for a third-person phenomenon.Along The Way wrote:The second thing is that people have and can experience themselves as pure awareness, not located in any body or any other material "thing". From this perspective the body not only seems like one object among many, but also it seems like the body is contained inside the mind and not vice versa. Further, this experience feels far more real, pure, natural, etc. then the typical experience of the mind being somewhere in the head/body.
I find it dubious to speculate on what some esoteric experience feels like as evidence for the possibility of the mind leaving the body. The only thing that would really challenge a view like mine (that the human mind is irrevocably tied to the brain) is OBEs; so unless this experience of "pure awareness" (whatever that is) is like looking at your body from a remote location, I'd say: why can't the brain just produce such an experience?Along The Way wrote:Now I'm not going to outright say that there is not connection between consciousness and the body. Clearly there is. But I can't say for certain that consciousness is reducible to the body any more than I can say that I am reducible to my car.
For the record, I wouldn't say that either. I'd say the body, or the brain, is reducible to the mind--but I still maintain they are inseparable.
I believe they are inseparable as well. I made the mistake of confusing "inseparable" from "reducible".
We must conclude they are inseparable until someone shows that they can be separated. So far I've seen no such evidence or reasoned explanation that could account for the idea that they can be separated. That doesn't mean they can't be, just that as philosophers there is no reason to conclude that they can be.
I can explain consciousness and mind in clear philosophical terms that anyone could follow, anyone who honestly wants to think about it that is. I've talked to many people over the years who believe that consciousness or mind can be separated from the body, but not a single one of them has been able to explain how that can happen, or provide any evidence for it. Basically it comes down to a lot of wishful thinking and some confusions about strange experiences at the limits of our subjectivity, such as hallucinations for example.
Someone gets high or has near death experience and has a kind of subjectivity distortion, hallucination, and then claims "I had an out of body experience!" Really? Or did you just basically have a really weird dream as the brain chemistry in your head was all out of whack for a while?
I'm interested in why people default to believing in things for which there is no reason or evidence. If I dream of flying I don't wake up and say "I can fly!", but I bet 10,000 years ago people did just that.