Why is Consciousness

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Why is Consciousness

Postby waechter418 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:13 pm

getting more and more discredited in Western civilization whose philosophers, artists, priests & poets held it, since the early Greeks, in high esteem.

Is it because modern western sciences pay little attention to consciousness, and if so, only to try to bind it into matter?

Or is it that people are increasingly captured by the material aspects of existence and thus become callous to consciousness?

What is the benefit of eliminating a concept that is accredited to have enriched Western cultures – and of course the grand civilizations of the East, who, by the way, keep its esprit since millennia well and alive.
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby Kriswest » Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:04 pm

You will note that both are following what they are told or taught to believe. Mass collective belief leaves little room for individuality. Does fear of the unknown control or actual truth? I go with fear and fear is no way to learn truth.
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby UrGod » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:31 pm

waechter418 wrote:getting more and more discredited in Western civilization whose philosophers, artists, priests & poets held it, since the early Greeks, in high esteem.

Is it because modern western sciences pay little attention to consciousness, and if so, only to try to bind it into matter?

Or is it that people are increasingly captured by the material aspects of existence and thus become callous to consciousness?

What is the benefit of eliminating a concept that is accredited to have enriched Western cultures – and of course the grand civilizations of the East, who, by the way, keep its esprit since millennia well and alive.


Western civilization began in the task of thinking, or rather to be more precise, in the task of what we call thinking. Certain poetic or artistic feats flowed out of that primary task as a kind of healthy excess of it.

Today, thinking is de-valued and ridiculed, where it isn't outright banned (such as at your job, for example, or in the church). Since art proper is a natural excess of thought, art now becomes more of a periphery "niche" sort of thing, an individual preference, or mostly a capitalist endeavor designed to co-opt values and thoughts/thinking to a given capital-arrangement. Art still exists today but it isn't what it once was; where it used to be a societal-level, truly cultural undertaking and power now it is mostly "individual" where it hasn't already been subsumed within larger capital networks.

Anyway, you can easily diagnose a culture's consciousness and thinking through its art. Hence how differences appear even within things like religions; some religion is a womb for slowly gestating thought and new more dynamic powers of consciousness, even if at face value the religion is nothing like that or even seems the exact opposite, while other religion is basically devoid of consciousness altogether and has no womb to speak of.

Luther-ism was perhaps the last time when a religious subjectivity obtained womb-like.

As for consciousness itself, it is simply a complex means of responding to certain ranges of reality. Consciousness is a point of contact from which emanate responses. The famous dualism between material and immaterial with respect to the question of consciousness is, really, a largely unconscious expression of the fact that consciousness is a certain kind of material structuring capable of recognizing and responding to immaterials (to facts, or to meaning, directly).
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:33 pm

How do you know most of these Westerners are even sentient? They could be pzombies.
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby UrGod » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:55 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:How do you know most of these Westerners are even sentient? They could be pzombies.


^ Saying things like this isn't thinking, it's anti-thinking.

Somehow you've been convinced that what you're doing is philosophy. It isn't. Probably you were convinced of this by other "philosophers" (charlatans, of which there are many today, mostly in academic philosophy departments).
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:56 pm

Wyld wrote:
Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:How do you know most of these Westerners are even sentient? They could be pzombies.


^ Saying things like this isn't thinking, it's anti-thinking.

Somehow you've been convinced that what you're doing is philosophy. It isn't. Probably you were convinced of this by other "philosophers" (charlatans, of which there are many today, mostly in academic philosophy departments).


Robotic and cliche response.
If you believe that every trillion of lifeform is sentient, if you believe that 100% of humans are sentient and 50% of animals are sentient, you better give an explanation about the paradox of exclusive information sets.
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby UrGod » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:06 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:
Wyld wrote:
Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:How do you know most of these Westerners are even sentient? They could be pzombies.


^ Saying things like this isn't thinking, it's anti-thinking.

Somehow you've been convinced that what you're doing is philosophy. It isn't. Probably you were convinced of this by other "philosophers" (charlatans, of which there are many today, mostly in academic philosophy departments).


Robotic and cliche response.
If you believe that every trillion of lifeform is sentient, if you believe that 100% of humans are sentient and 50% of animals are sentient, you better give an explanation about the paradox of exclusive information sets.


I don't think even you have any idea what you're saying. I would call you a troll, but you seem to have swallowed your own propaganda; which, incidentally, is one definite of "religion" that I ran into the other day while reading some science fiction...
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:39 am

Wyld wrote:
Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Robotic and cliche response.
If you believe that every trillion of lifeform is sentient, if you believe that 100% of humans are sentient and 50% of animals are sentient, you better give an explanation about the paradox of exclusive information sets.


I don't think even you have any idea what you're saying. I would call you a troll, but you seem to have swallowed your own propaganda; which, incidentally, is one definite of "religion" that I ran into the other day while reading some science fiction...


Its religion to believe that people who have cardboard personalities are sentient. Half the world's population acts like repetitive cardboard.
What do you think of my robot thread? Think that was a lie? Think again. For all we know we could live in a simulation. 60% of the science community agrees with me. I win. NPCS dont have sentience. Not even sure you have sentience.
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby waechter418 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:31 pm

"What do you think of my robot thread?"

A robot is to execute someones program - so do some people - but latter is nothing to boast with in a philosophical forum...
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:41 pm

90% of you act like robots...it's nothing to boast about.

Speech without fear is overrated...how many of you would spew the shit you'd spew if I actually lived in close proximity to you and there were no laws and rules giving me a conscience? I mean, everyone here pretty much posts drivel day in and day and out, and spits in the face of one the few people who tries to liven up this mental desert. I mean, how many of you act like automatons day in and day out? And who's lives will, eventually culiminate into a grand nothing but a gravestone with a pithy remark inscribed on it laying in the dirt? And who spits on the one who tries to change things and actually have an impact on anything beyond your own pitiful so-called minds?

Cardboard cut-out...wer-wer bebop do the robot:
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby encode_decode » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:46 am

waechter418 wrote:getting more and more discredited in Western civilization whose philosophers, artists, priests & poets held it, since the early Greeks, in high esteem.

Is it because modern western sciences pay little attention to consciousness, and if so, only to try to bind it into matter?

Or is it that people are increasingly captured by the material aspects of existence and thus become callous to consciousness?

What is the benefit of eliminating a concept that is accredited to have enriched Western cultures – and of course the grand civilizations of the East, who, by the way, keep its esprit since millennia well and alive.

I am not even sure that the science we have today could be considered "real science" despite some impressive results here and there. I think science has lost its own consciousness and is more like a swarm. I love how the latest science so easily convinces itself of what consciousness is when it appears that what science has is merely a theory - still! Or did I miss the memo that the theory of evolution has become a law. If I were to choose a theory it would be "string theory" or "m theory". But ineffective rhetoric aside - I myself sensed material captivation as a correlation to this lovely new science. Look at the world now - what is science really doing for it? I see that eliminating the concept of consciousness has had no actual benefit to any of us. More rhetoric and ineffective still and I apologize for that - but I felt the need to say something. Science seems promiscuous to me now and adulterous. That is all I have to say on the matter - I have no intention on debating my own rhetoric here.

:D

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But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:47 am

being a "slow learner" is not a bad thing!

"slowness" tends to facilitate penetration ... as in penetrating consciousness.

as the saying goes ... if the shoe fits ... and me thinks the "shoe" is like panty hose ... "one size fits all"
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:27 am

Like it or not folks Trixie is a genius! The complexity of her posts are often 4-5 layers higher ... as in more complex ... than the simplicity of the words and phrases she uses to deliver it. I don't know whether it is always his/her intention ... or by accident. Doesn't matter the "goodness" is there and the fountain is Trixie's genius.

Let me try to illustrate with his/her recent use of the word "robot" and the (un)known association(s) to humans he/she implied in his/her post.

Let me start with an anecdote involving my eldest daughter ... currently about age 43. She is not a philosopher by trade yet she is not an uneducated woman. She wears the moniker/badge PhD ... with some pride I might add. For me ... those who wear this moniker/badge have serious constipation in their individual consciousness.

On with my story ... a few years ago my daughter shared her philosophy of life ... paraphrasing ... like the tiger and the rabbit I get up in the morning and start running ... looking for food.

See the 'robotic' behavior here? ... we are taking directions/instructions from our stomach.

For tigers and rabbits ... that's what they do ... no more and no less. How many photos have you seen of tigers lazing around in the sun or in the shade.

OTH ... for people the word "food" has a much broader meaning ... education ... career ... stature/status in the community and so on.

See the 'robotic' behavior here? ... we take directions/instructions from our family/culture/ambition and so on.

In many many ways ... perhaps almost all ways ... people are robots.

Trixie ... you're a genius!!
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:54 am

Has anyone achieved individuation? ... anywhere? ... anytime?

Sure ... they're called:

1) freaks

2) degenerates

3) insert here

4) insert here
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:52 am

In the last few decades the entire world has more or less embraced the notion of Market Economy ... humanity has virtually no wiggle room ... all humanity is reduced to robotic behaviour.

The destructive strain(s) of such an economic model have been evident almost since it's inception ... first at a local level ... growing to a regional level and finally (currently) a global level.

The strain(s) will eventually result in a total collapse ... in ancient Chinese Philosophy ... known as "Reversion of Extremes".

In nature, this can be seen in a rose blossom ... just when the rose blossom finally reaches it's zenith ... the flower is open, beautiful and fragrant ... very quickly the next phase sets in ... the ugliness of death.

The death of the individual rose blossom is not the death of the rose plant ... likewise for humanity ... when the current economic model dies a new one ... better or worse ... will replace it.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby waechter418 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:00 pm

Civilisations change - and so do their sociopolitical- national- religious- economical setups* - but Homo remains the same.
Nothing wrong with it - we are what we are - but in times of trouble, or even danger of extinction, it is recommendable that we wake up from our self-complacent dreams.

* Yval Noah Harari calls them Myths - see his new (highly recommendable!) work: " Sapiens, A Brief History Of Humankind"
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby waechter418 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:36 pm

pilgrim_tom wrote:Has anyone achieved individuation? ... anywhere? ... anytime?

Everyone is subject to circumstances - and vice versa. Later aspect entails responsibility.
Since collectives have low and slow response-abilities - the individual (Lat: Undivided) might be the best guide through troubled waters (times)

P.S. I am sure Buddha, Socrates and Copernicus were called nuts and freaks too.
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:35 pm

waechter418 wrote:
pilgrim_tom wrote:Has anyone achieved individuation? ... anywhere? ... anytime?

Everyone is subject to circumstances - and vice versa. Later aspect entails responsibility.
Since collectives have low and slow response-abilities - the individual (Lat: Undivided) might be the best guide through troubled waters (times)

P.S. I am sure Buddha, Socrates and Copernicus were called nuts and freaks too.


waechter418 wrote:the individual (Lat: Undivided) might be the best guide through troubled waters (times)


empirical evidence (Confucius, Lao Tzu, Abraham) suggests the truly individuated individual (Lat:undivided) has been born into the human family at the appropriate time ... always.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby encode_decode » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:33 am

waechter418 wrote:P.S. I am sure Buddha, Socrates and Copernicus were called nuts and freaks too.

I am certain they would have been as I know I have been.

:D

I love your avatar - Salvador Dali if I am not mistaken.
- Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby waechter418 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:03 pm

Dali named it

"Geopoliticus son watching the birth of the new man"
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby waechter418 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:19 pm

waechter418 wrote:the individual (Lat: Undivided) might be the best guide through troubled waters (times)


empirical evidence (Confucius, Lao Tzu, Abraham) suggests the truly individuated individual (Lat:undivided) has been born into the human family at the appropriate time ... always.[/quote]

...their regular appearance suggests that consciousness has particular dynamics

"Another view of Consciousness" presents some respective ideas.
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:22 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Like it or not folks Trixie is a genius!

Most people do not like to admit I am a genius because it means that I am right 90% of the time...me being right 90% of the time challenges their delusions of how they view their lives and the world.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:She says things in simple ways which is genius

Sometimes to be a genius is all that is needed is to simply...pay attention. Mozart simply paid attention to music theory and nature, and created music that captured the beauty of nature. Newton simply payed attention to nature, and captured the physics of nature. All I do is simply pay attention to things.
A lot of people are too invested in their own dasein to agree with my theories. What I notice is obvious...that females are not generally inherently sexually attracted to males, which causes sexual stratification and a lot of problems in the world. But if I state the obvious, that females are generally not inherently sexually attracted to males...Noone wants to believe me.

But let's look at this from a logical perspective.
If females were inherently attracted to most males, males would not need to learn tactics and tricks of how to get women. They would have an adequate quantity of women at the ready to choose from. The amount of rich men would be very few, men seek power as a means to create families.

Trixie ... you're a genius!!

Thankyou, I am.

Once you start seeing things from my eyes you see the world as a bunch of carboard cutouts, almost stationary in time. Like you are a being 5000 years ahead of your time and not from this world.
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat May 13, 2017 6:05 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom

empirical evidence (Confucius, Lao Tzu, Abraham) suggests the truly individuated individual (Lat:undivided) has been born into the human family at the appropriate time ... always.


Are some born already as being "truly individuated individuals" at the appropriate time? Is this what you are saying?
I would think that this is actually a process which happens over time, wouldn't you say?
We are not born with the individual consciousness which we eventually attain to.
I would also say that it takes the meeting and relating with a great many others in order to form a human being in this way. We are not islands unto ourselves.

I may be wrong here but your statement suggests to me that you believe in fate ~~ that we all have our own human destiny. Is this your belief?
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby waechter418 » Mon May 15, 2017 4:20 am

Some individuals appear in the appropriate time while some take time to become a individual.

As the word indicates, an individual does not come about through "others". (except fashion "individuals")

Buddhists claim that there is an individual consciousness which can experience various births.
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Re: Why is Consciousness

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon May 15, 2017 2:57 pm

encode_decode

I am not even sure that the science we have today could be considered "real science" despite some impressive results here and there. I think science has lost its own consciousness and is more like a swarm. I love how the latest science so easily convinces itself of what consciousness is when it appears that what science has is merely a theory - still! Or did I miss the memo that the theory of evolution has become a law. If I were to choose a theory it would be "string theory" or "m theory". But ineffective rhetoric aside - I myself sensed material captivation as a correlation to this lovely new science. I see that eliminating the concept of consciousness has had no actual benefit to any of us. More rhetoric and ineffective still and I apologize for that - but I felt the need to say something. Science seems promiscuous to me now and adulterous. That is all I have to say on the matter - I have no intention on debating my own rhetoric here.

Smile is all I can really do - because "sleep" is not an option . . . open to interpretation . .
:D


I kind of think that most scientists and philosophers of mind would look on consciousness as still a theory or a hypothesis ~~ not the actual concept itself so much ~~ as what it really is.
Don't you think that science is still debating/investigating/discovering what it is?

It's as deep as the ocean with many many kinds of "fish" within it and as vast as deep space.
Let's not forget that the "science fiction" of yesterday eventually became the real science of today.

Look at the world now - what is science really doing for it?


Well, for one thing, hasn't it brought us to distant, distant stars? Hasn't it taught us about the human psyche, about what makes us tick, what makes us more or less fully human? Hasn't it warned us of global warming? Hasn't it shown us what we are doing to the different species' habitats and endangering these same species? Hasn't it admonished over and over about the dangers of smoking ~~ and yes, do we listen? There are different branches of science and they are all trying to fulfill their purpose. Rome wasn't built in a day.

You do not need to look with rose-colored glasses but you can at least put one lens in which is rose-colored while at the same time seeing the one which has no lens as of yet. The coin has two sides to it, within a 24 hour period is the both the light and the dark, there is both hot and cold, there is both the star which has been born and the star which is slowly dying out.

I see that eliminating the concept of consciousness has had no actual benefit to any of us

You may just have a point there in a sense. But you can still hold on to your consciousness and dive into it, seek it when and where you can. It may at times hide from us but do you remember when you were a child and played hide and seek? Were you one who was great at finding those others?
There are the Borg but then let's not forget that there are also those walking the corridors of the Star Ship Enterprise who daily seek out consciousness wherever in the galaxies they may explore. lol

So please go where no "non-conscious" man dares to go. Have no fear.

You could come up with a multitude of ways in which science has worked and has "been there" so to speak.

Why is sleep not an option?
You could also do this ~~ :-k
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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