Power

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Power

Postby AutSider » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:10 am

The primary type of power is physical power, which is to say the power to affect physical interactions in the objective world, which consists of concrete things. All other types of power are based on it and therefore its subtypes.

Drawing from my own experience, I have 2 dogs, and by the time I've gotten the second one as a puppy the first one was already grown. The first dog asserted itself over the second dog while the latter was still young and physically weaker. Later on, even when the second dog grew to be physically stronger, it was still submissive to the first dog. The type of power the 1st dog exerts over the 2nd is psychological power, the secondary main type of power. It is initially dependent upon physical power to establish itself, but almost becomes a power in and of itself afterwards, possibly independent of further proof of physical superiority.

A type of psychological power is social power, it involves at least 2 organisms and works only on other living beings with the ability to, to some extent, perceive patterns and store them as memory. This is one of the reasons it is inferior to raw physical power - it is more dependent and thus applies in a fewer number of scenarios (only in interactions with other organisms, not the non-organic world). Aside from that, raw physical power is always guaranteed to work, while the psychological may not. An intelligent organism that is psychologically dominated but physically superior , may eventually become aware of the physical weakness of the one psychologically dominating them, and realize that they do not have to be dominated at all. For example, if the 2nd dog I have realized it was stronger than the 1st, it could easily physically dominate it. But typically only more intelligent organisms - humans, can break free from psychological domination. And then, only the more intelligent of humans.

Political, economic, religious, etc. powers are all types of social power and appeal to different parts of the human psyche, so some are more inclined to be persuaded by political, others by economic, others again by religious power.

By the way, when I speak of raw physical power, I don't necessarily mean only bodily strength. Neanderthal A may be less strong than neanderthal B, but if A is intelligent enough to realize that picking up a club increases its power, and B is not, then A may end up being physically more powerful despite having less bodily strength. So intelligence is also a type of power.

I consider intelligence to be the core psychological power. It can be applied in social contexts too, but it is also useful outside of social contexts, which differentiates it from social power.
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Re: Power

Postby AutSider » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:10 am

The physical realm is where all power necessarily must manifest. Intelligence, psychological power, social power, economic power, etc... all ultimately based on their ability to affect the physical realm. Politicians are politically (socially) powerful because they have police and military backing them by fulfilling the role of mercenaries, of physical enforcers. In addition to physical power, politicians, as well as other authorities, also use psychological power (brainwashing, indoctrination), but it is less reliable, and generally only possible on those who have already been physically submitted, or the weak-minded. Intelligence too is only useful if it ultimately improves the performance of an organism concerning its interactions in physical reality. If one specimen is stronger and the other more intelligent, then the more intelligent one must find alternate ways of dealing with and overcoming the sheer bodily strength of the former. Perhaps it will use its superior intelligence to find/construct a weapon, or to form social bonds with other organisms and find power in numbers (social power), or it will simply strive to improve other aspects of its physicality, such as learning martial arts to counter strength with technique. All then use their strengths and weaknesses and participate in natural selection, which determines which types of power are more powerful, and which ones less so.

All forms of power are therefore ultimately tested in their ability to affect the physical. I do not consider this as reducing and diminishing the value of intelligence and other forms of power, rather, that all powers must manifest in the physical serves to connect and ground them firmly to the earth by providing a way to objectively measure such powers. It prevents the abstractions from floating away and becoming "skyhooks" and by doing that it also prevents every imbecile from just calling themselves "intelligent" and "powerful" without having anything to show for it, and it discredits their excuse of "it's all subjective".

And if I am not mistaken, it is also consistent with my idea of Objectivism, and with the scientific principle of bottom/earth->up/sky reasoning, which is to say, empiricism, and with evolution.
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Re: Power

Postby Destiny » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:14 am

Flower = Power
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Re: Power

Postby Along The Way » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:06 pm

I don't think humans have triumphed as much as we have because of physical power. Spiritual/Psychological power is far greater. The ability to command speech, command body language, and command ones glare can move whole nations.

Our material bodies are nothing compared to the depths of our soul. Our bodies are very useful instruments, but they're just that, instruments.
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Re: Power

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:22 pm

Psychic power is still physical power.

Words are also physical power, reprogramming a robot is physical power. The words are physical, sound waves or visual waves.
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Re: Power

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:07 pm

Physical power is the only real kind of genuine power. Social or psychological power can't exist on its own like physical power can without some kind of manipulative deception propping itself up. Social or psychological powers to me are lesser forms of power overall.
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Re: Power

Postby Along The Way » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:34 pm

HaHaHa wrote:Physical power is the only real kind of genuine power. Social or psychological power can't exist on its own like physical power can without some kind of manipulative deception propping itself up. Social or psychological powers to me are lesser forms of power overall.


How do you know this? How do you know that physical power can exist without psychological power? We are aware beings. We can only know that physical power is real because we have the power of awareness. There is no proof that without awareness there is objective reality.
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Re: Power

Postby James S Saint » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:59 pm

Along The Way wrote:
HaHaHa wrote:Physical power is the only real kind of genuine power. Social or psychological power can't exist on its own like physical power can without some kind of manipulative deception propping itself up. Social or psychological powers to me are lesser forms of power overall.


How do you know this? How do you know that physical power can exist without psychological power? We are aware beings. We can only know that physical power is real because we have the power of awareness. There is no proof that without awareness there is objective reality.

To be physical is to affect. To affect is to express power. Power cannot exist without inherently being physical. And if anything expresses power, it is inherently physical. Being physical is being with power. They are the same thing.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Power

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:02 am

JSS,

Are psychic abilities physical?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Power

Postby James S Saint » Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:52 am

Maniacal Mongoose wrote:JSS,

Are psychic abilities physical?

Only the ones that have physical affect. 8)
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Power

Postby WendyDarling » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:44 am

Mmm-hmm, now define physical for yours truly 8) JSS. Where are emotions felt? Might as well specify that while you're at it.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Power

Postby James S Saint » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:31 pm

Maniacal Mongoose wrote:Mmm-hmm, now define physical for yours truly 8) JSS.

The physical is that which is changing.

Maniacal Mongoose wrote: Where are emotions felt? Might as well specify that while you're at it.

They are "felt" just at and beneath the surface of the conscious.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Power

Postby WendyDarling » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:52 am

JSS,

:evil:
James S Saint wrote:
Maniacal Mongoose wrote:Mmm-hmm, now define physical for yours truly 8) JSS.

The physical is that which is changing.

Maniacal Mongoose wrote: Where are emotions felt? Might as well specify that while you're at it.

They are "felt" just at and beneath the surface of the conscious.


Go ahead and play your reindeer games, 'tis the season. No serious specifics.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Power

Postby James S Saint » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:04 am

To You ..
.. the "specifics" are boring .. not worth typing.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25612
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Power

Postby Arminius » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:20 am

HaHaHa wrote:Physical power is the only real kind of genuine power. Social or psychological power can't exist on its own like physical power can without some kind of manipulative deception propping itself up. Social or psychological powers to me are lesser forms of power overall.

Yes. Instead of "lesser forms of power“ one could also use the wording "hierarchically more determined by those that are less determined", or the wording "carried or borne by more strata or levels".

According to Nicolai Hartmann there are four main strata or levels of being or reality:

| _____ (4) Geistiges _____ |

| _______ (3) Seelisches _______|

| _________ (2) Organisches _________|

| ____________ (1) Anorganisches ____________ |


Schichtenlehre lt. N. Hartmann.

This four levels of reality are characterized by the fact that the respective higher (and lighter) level/s are carried or borne by the respective lower (and heavier) level/s and "free" towards the respective lower (and heavier) level/s - insofar as their "freedom" is not restricted by the fact that they are carreid or borne -, especially because they show new properties or characteristics against the respective lower level/s.

The (1) first, lowest, haeviest one is the inorganic level; the (2) second, second-lowest (and third highest), second-haeviest (and third-lightest) one is the organic level; the (3) third, third-lowest (and second-highest), third-heaviest (and second-lightest) one is the level of "Seelisches", which means properties or characteristics of soul, psyche, emotion; the (4) fourth, highest, lightest one is the level of "Geistiges", which means properties or characteristics of spirit, thinking, intellectuality, imagery.

So, for example, the inorganic level (1) is carried or borne by no other level, whereas the level of "Geistiges" (4) is carried or borne by all other levels.

Inorganic beings (1) do not need an organic body (2), do not need "Seelisches" (3), do not need "Geistiges" (4), whereas even the highest spirit of all times (4) needs "Seelisches" (3), needs an organic body (2), needs inorganic beings (1).

The fourth level is not capable of existing without the other three levels, because it is carried or borne by them. The third level is not capable of existing without the second and the first level, because it is carried or borne by them. The second level is not capable of existing without the first level, because it is carried or borne by it. Only the first level is capable of existing without the other three levels, because it is not carried or borne by them. The first level is unfree because of its type of determination: causality. The second level is relatively free in the sense that it is categorially free towards the first level. The third level is relatively free in the sense that it is categorially free towards the second and the first level. The fourth level is relatively free in the sense that it is most categorially free (but not 100% free), which means categorially free towards the three other levels.

100%-freedom is not possible: the fact that the lower and heavier levels carry the higher and lighter levels means that the higher and lighter levels depend on the lower and heavier levels, although the higher and lighter levels are relatively free towards the lower and heavier levels; and the lowest and heaviest level (1) is not free because of its type of determination: causality. Note: "relatively free" means here "categorially free"; each level has its own categories.

Hartmann postulated four laws that apply to the levels of reality:

- The law of recurrence: Lower categories recur in the higher levels as a subaspect of higher categories, but never vice versa.
- The law of modification: The categorial elements modify in their recurrence in the higher levels (they are shaped by the characteristics of the higher levels).
- The law of the novum: The higher category is composed of a diversity of lower elements, but it is a specific novum that is not included in the lower levels.
- The law of distance between levels: Since the different levels do not develop continuously but in leaps, they can be clearly distinguished.

The first and the second level are spatial, the third and the fourth level are not spatial.

The first level (which is pretty similar to what you called "physical power") is in fact the most powerful one, has in fact the strongest power in the sense that the other three levels are carried or borne by the first level and that the categories of the first level recur in the higher levels (and never vice versa) as a subaspect of higher categories.

An example:

You hit a man and this hit causes something physically (=> (1) matter, causality). Maybe you hit that man bcause he has threatened you; so you just want to save your own life (=> (2) life, urge). Maybe you groundlessly hate that man and therefore you hit him (=> (3) Seele, motif). Maybe your hate is not reasonless, and you hit that man because of a reason (=> (4) Geist, reason).

| LEVEL | CATEGORY | TYPE OF DETERMINATION |
| _ (4) _| __ Geist __| _______ Reason _______ |
| _ (3) _| __ Seele __| ________ Motif ________|
| _ (2) _| ___ Life __ | ________ Urge ________|
| _ (1) _| _ Matter _ | _______ Causality ______|

If one looks at the connection of levels and categories, many world views contain for Hartmann the basic mistake of the fundamental one-sidedness.
- The materialism tries to derive organic (2), emotional (3) and spiritual (4) phenomena from physical processes (1) and overlooks the more complicated structures at the respective higher level.
- Alike the biologism tries to found emotional (3) and spiritual (4) phenomena on the life (2) principles and overlooks the laws of the novelty and the freedom.
- The vitalism tries an explanation of life (2) with the principle of the finality, although this is a category of the Geistiges (4).
- In the idealism occurs an explanation of the world (1 and 2) in the principle of the subject, although the subject is to be assigned to the level of the Geistiges (4).

Nicolai Hartmann:
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Re: Power

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:04 am

James S Saint wrote:To You ..
.. the "specifics" are boring .. not worth typing.


More like ..the "specifics" are wrong..
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Power

Postby AutSider » Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:44 am

Along the Way, I don't think you've read my 2 posts. All powers are necessarily physical, for the measurement of how powerful they are is ultimately their ability to affect the physical realm (reality). Physical power =/= bodily strength, I pointed this out in my OP, and this also applies to HaHaHa's post as well.

There are 2 additional divisions of power -

1) Genuine, independent power. This power flows from self and does not depend, or depends less on otherness to be effective.
2) Empowerment, dependent power. This power is based to some extent on self, but in order to be realized it is dependent on the presence of some otherness. This is why it is sometimes considered inferior, although it can overpower 1) in certain contexts, but not in the long run. All types of social power belong in this category.

Arminius, I can't say I agree entirely but this Hartmann sounds like he's worth reading.
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Re: Power

Postby Arminius » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:02 am

Nicolai Hartmann is worth reading - in any case -, yes.
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Re: Power

Postby surreptitious57 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:46 am

Maniacal Mongoose wrote:
Are psychic abilities physical

Well they would not be called psychic if they were although I tend not to
accept something as true unless it can actually be demonstrated to be so
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Re: Power

Postby Pandora » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:57 pm

So what of an example of a delusional cult leader (like Heaven's Gate for example) who believes he's a prophet or messiah, or whatever, and whose delusions eventually lead to mass suicides? Let's assume he's truly insane too, and really believes what he's saying, himself (no conscious manipulation involved). That would be an example of fantasy ("non-physical") affecting events in physical world. Or what about suicide bombers who think they're just earning a place in the afterlife by blowing themselves up and causing damage in physical world? Let's say people are not even targets of insane visions. It could be animals or natural landscapes. Power or force is manifested in the physical world, but it comes from a mental delusion.
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Re: Power

Postby AutSider » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:18 am

Psychological power. The ability to exploit a person by appealing to their emotions and feeding into their deepest desires.

You will notice that all religions and other methods of psychological manipulation feed into some fundamental human weakness/need. The God is the ultimate father figure, feeds into the human desire to be cared for and guided, makes one feel safe and gives a sense of purpose, absolving the individual of the responsibility of constructing their own purpose. Heaven promises eternal happiness for eternity - it doesn't get much more obvious than that, appealing to the satisfaction of all of a person's needs. And hell, its opposite - eternal punishment, appealing to fear of pain and suffering.

Those who are deluded themselves perhaps even make the best leaders because they are convincing, they don't have to consciously switch between their private beliefs (what they actually believe) and public beliefs (what they sell to the masses), for they are one and the same.

But those who are aware that they are just manipulating others have the advantage of not being manipulated themselves by the same bullshit, Jews are the example of this - they sell all kinds of ideological bullshit to others, whilst of course rejecting it themselves. The downside is that others may perceive and point out this hypocrisy, which opens them up for criticism.

Even fantasy is physical in that it is constructed and contained by a physical brain, and representations of these connections in the brain can be expressed using written and spoken language.
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Re: Power

Postby Pandora » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:02 am

The problem I'm having with the concept of power or force (which has been bugging me lately) is that it's such a broadly used term, if you think about it, that it's almost easier to think of it in terms of just physics if you're trying to isolate it's essence. Surely, force or power is something that has existed in nature before humans came along, and even before life itself appeared on earth. We talk about earth being created by cosmic forces, and later by geological forces and weather systems, which later created the environment conductive to life. Then life appeared, which could be considered a force of its own kind (negative entropy) which is driven by self replication/survival. Then, increasing complexity, either through assimilations or random mutations (how does force or power play into that?). It's easy to use human or political examples of use of power, but what can we say of it's essence? Is it determined by its function, or consequence/result, or its source, or is it a term that we use arbitrarily when you look at a bigger picture which does not even consider humans or animals as an exclusive source in power/force plays that may actually exist. Perhaps the problem lies in the language use, but then what would it be without linguistic definition?
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Re: Power

Postby Magnus Anderson » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:54 am

Power is the ability to change.

An alternative definition would be that power is the ability to posit a goal and then achieve it but this excludes everything that does not have a goal (e.g. tornadoes) or is said to have an "unconscious" goal which is something that is rarely observed and often merely postulated (e.g. any human action that is not preceded by a conscious idea of a goal.)

A physically strong man is powerful because physical strength allows him to manipulate heavy objects by changing their physical position and shape.

A liar is powerful because he can change people's thoughts.

An intelligent person is powerful because he can better anticipate events.

And so on and so forth.
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Re: Power

Postby Pandora » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:46 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:Power is the ability to change.
That's very broad. Everywhere I'd look I would see power because change is happening everywhere. (Maybe transfer of energy would be a better description).

An alternative definition would be that power is the ability to posit a goal and then achieve it but this excludes everything that does not have a goal (e.g. tornadoes) or is said to have an "unconscious" goal which is something that is rarely observed and often merely postulated (e.g. any human action that is not preceded by a conscious idea of a goal.)
You would still see transference (dissipation) of energy in tornadoes, from combination of ordered warm/cold fronts to their dispersal and dissipation(from non-equilibrium to equilibrium). It would not follow the goal per se, but it would follow a natural law, this is why we can predict the possibility of formation of tornadoes or hurricanes beforehand.

A physically strong man is powerful because physical strength allows him to manipulate heavy objects by changing their physical position and shape.
I think in physics that would technically be how much work is done. In physics, power (rating) would be how long it would take to do work (power=rate at which work is done). In people, we would also call this an efficiency factor, that is, an efficient person would do the same (or greater) amount of work in less time (and with less wasted energy)
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Re: Power

Postby James S Saint » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:05 pm

"The ability to cause change" is "potential energy". The changing itself is "energy". And then "power" is how much change is caused within an amount of time (usually conflated with "potential power").

In physics, power is energy over time = how much changing (the "work") is done within a specified amount of time (the rate of energy transfer or the rate of changing of the changing).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25612
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

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