Power

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Re: Power

Postby surreptitious57 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:23 pm

In physics energy is defined as the ability to perform work. That ability reduces over time
as entropy increases. In a system with maximum entropy no work at all can be performed
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: Power

Postby James S Saint » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:32 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:In a system with maximum entropy no work at all can be performed

I agree that is what is said and taught, but it happens to not be true. The "Second Law of Thermodynamics" is merely a commonality, not a law.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Power

Postby surreptitious57 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:04 pm

The Second Law Of Thermodynamics states that entropy will not decrease over time so
some equilibrium can be maintained in specific cases but in most cases it does increase
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: Power

Postby James S Saint » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:09 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:.. in most cases it does increase

True (close to where ever life grows).

Although universally, it increases in exactly one half of the cases.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 24517
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Power

Postby Magnus Anderson » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:44 pm

Pandora wrote:
Magnus Anderson wrote:Power is the ability to change.
That's very broad. Everywhere I'd look I would see power because change is happening everywhere. (Maybe transfer of energy would be a better description).


Whenever you see one object changing another object -- change must be caused -- that would be a manifestation of power i.e. the ability to change. That, however, does not mean that every object has the same ability to change, in terms of both quality (kind of change) and quantity (degree of change), as every other object.

It is useful to define what ability is.

Ability means being able to do something.

Ability to do something means that you can do that action. That means nothing other than that you will perform that action when you're expected to do so.

Ability is an interpretation not a fact.
Facts refer to memories of what was.
Interpretations refer to predictions of what will be or would have been.

A child, for example, is expected to be successful each time it tries to lift a lighter object and unsuccessful each time it tries to lift a heavier object. These expectations, of course, are limited to its early childhood.

When it grows up, say when it reaches adulthood, he is expected to be successful with both lighter and heavier objects.

Because we predict that an adult can physically perform everything a child can and then some more, we say that the adult is physically stronger than the child.
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Re: Power

Postby Pandora » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:39 am

James S Saint wrote:"The ability to cause change" is "potential energy". The changing itself is "energy". And then "power" is how much change is caused within an amount of time (usually conflated with "potential power").

In physics, power is energy over time = how much changing (the "work") is done within a specified amount of time (the rate of energy transfer or the rate of changing of the changing).
Right.

James wrote:Although universally, it increases in exactly one half of the cases.
Well, I can only speak on that which I can observe and that which makes sense to me. I cannot, in honesty, really speak as to what's going on elsewhere in the universe. How would I (or anyone) know anyway?


Magnus wrote:Whenever you see one object changing another object -- change must be caused -- that would be a manifestation of power i.e. the ability to change. That, however, does not mean that every object has the same ability to change, in terms of both quality (kind of change) and quantity (degree of change), as every other object.
It is useful to define what ability is.

Ability means being able to do something.

Ability to do something means that you can do that action. That means nothing other than that you will perform that action when you're expected to do so.
Yes, and in physics, as James noted, that ability to change would be considered potential energy. In physics, there would also be additional variables considered for power, such as speed of such change. You can do the same quality and quantity of change but doing it faster would be considered more powerful (in physics anyway), so, as an example, blasting a large hole in the mountain with dynamite in 2 seconds vs. digging it out by hand for 15 yrs vs. natural water erosion by rain water for 2 million yrs. Same result, different pace. (the first example of work would be considered more powerful on the account of speed) But then, in energy transfers, and work done, isn't there also an efficiency factor involved, or the amount of energy used up for work. Which of the three would be most efficient? I'm thinking the third example. Sport vehicles, for example, maybe powerful and faster but would not be considered efficient, as they also consume a lot of fuel in the process. Maybe this does not specifically have anything to do with power per se, but if you're talking change and energy transfers these elements start coming into play as well. It seems to me that the efficiency factor may actually exist independently of power factor. So far, I've identified four variables in energy transfer dynamics: potential energy (ability), power (rate), work (amount of change or the amount of energy transferred by force), and efficiency (energy lost/conserved in the process). Perhaps it can be debated whether power should be further differentiated to include rate and not just work (as it seems to be usually understood).

(Well, so much for me attempting to geek this thread out. :lol: )
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Re: Power

Postby James S Saint » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:01 am

Pandora wrote: I cannot, in honesty, really speak as to what's going on elsewhere in the universe. How would I (or anyone) know anyway?

Logical necessity tells you of what must be, regardless of where it is.

Pandora wrote:(Well, so much for me attempting to geek this thread out. :lol: )

You did pretty good .. for a Geekette. 8)
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 24517
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Power

Postby Pandora » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:09 am

I was trying to see it in terms of physics alone but that requires a certain kind of looking at things that I am not used to. I mean, don't physicists see the physical world in terms of interplay of different forces? Perhaps they cannot capture all of it, especially when it comes to human behavior, but we must also act within the laws of physics or natural world, as we are just part of it. So language use and labels become problematic sometimes if you try to change the framing.
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Re: Power

Postby James S Saint » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:37 am

Pandora wrote:I was trying to see it in terms of physics alone but that requires a certain kind of looking at things that I am not used to. I mean, don't physicists see the physical world in terms of interplay of different forces? Perhaps they cannot capture all of it, especially when it comes to human behavior, but we must also act within the laws of physics or natural world, as we are just part of it. So language use and labels become problematic sometimes if you try to change the framing.

As an engineer, I certainly thought in terms of forces. And such is still a strong temptation, especially when talking to others. But more recently, I discovered that those "forces" don't actually exist at all, so these days, I hold to a different perspective - no forces, merely a migratory reconstructive bustling with the ambience (swaying in the wind and waves).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 24517
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Power

Postby AutSider » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:54 pm

The ability to preserve one's identity and resist change while everything around you is changing and attempting to change you is a power as well, so power being "the ability to change" doesn't always apply.
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Re: Power

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:06 pm

I would say that power is the ability to change and nothing more than that. It does not matter what you're doing with it.

Beside that, in order to protect something (e.g. identity) from being destroyed you need to change something in your environment (e.g. redirect the threat, destroy the threat, evade the threat, etc.) In other words, successful protection of whatever you want to protect requires power and its proper use (which is where intelligence comes in, note that intelligence is not power, i.e. ability to change, but merely ability of a different kind.)
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