Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:53 pm

The movement of matter isn't dependent on an observer. The observation of the movement of matter is.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:01 am

Mind is a compendium of processes, formed from the flow of physical matter. And as the processes of the mind flow, the matter changes situation which in turn changes the mind.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:33 am

James, I don't see why you make the distinction between mind and matter while simultaneously, seemingly, stating that mind is matter.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:48 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:James, I don't see why you make the distinction between mind and matter while simultaneously, seemingly, stating that mind is matter.

In a computer the "software" is the processing and made of the flow of physical substance (e-fields, electrons). The software is still material substance even though not the harder molecular substance. The organic mind is similar in that the mind, although still not the "wetware" harder substance, is in fact made of the subtle processing, the softer physical substance flowing throughout the wetware (the bioelectronic neurology).

All physical materials are actually made of one type of processing or another, even those relatively hard molecules. There are no physical "rigid bodies". It is the changing, the inner subtle motion that forms the hard clusters we call matter. The harder matter is merely harder because it is internally changing so fast that additional changes from outside cannot be easily made, hence inherently resisting against force = "hard".

The only parts that are not physical are the concepts involved in the designs. The design itself is not physical, material, or matter. Although designs get updated, they are not made of the changing and thus are not physical. The human is materially physical in every respect except for the conceptual designs involved, the "soul".

By definition, if anything has physical affect, it is physical. As it turns out, as the mind is doing its processing thing, it causes more permanent physical alterations such as memory engrams, the "firmware". And then because of those changes, the mind functions slightly differently than before, thus it "learns". Simply because it has physical affect, there is no option but to call the mind physical. And that is all any physical substance is - "that which has physical affect".

And asking if mind and mater are independent is like asking if the water is independent of the waves and vsvrsa.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25046
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:13 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:Dude. A scent is a particle of matter than enters and stimulates your nostrils. A scent is totally matter. Jesus.



Odor is neither matter nor non matter. Odor is a sensation - a physiological response to a chemical stimulus (chemicals being matter), in which volatile chemicals bind to scent receptors inside the nose, leading to the stimulation of specific neurons leading to the brain, giving rise to the sensation of "odor".

http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_odor_matter ... r?#slide=2


Not all things that cannot be observed are considered non-matter. Certain objects, such as the air or the scent emanated by perfume, are invisible to the naked eye [color=#000080]but are made up of matter as their existence can be verified using either smell or taste. [/color]Another example of non-observable matter are atoms, which can only be seen under microscopes by bouncing light off them.


https://www.reference.com/science/non-m ... 7eddf7cdd2


For some reason, I could not copy and paste the text from the below hyperlink. The last paragraph is a bit ambiguous.
But then again, couldn't one say that a "sensation" or an emotional experience sans its catylyst could qualify as reality, thereby putting sensation into the realm of "matter" as it is reality in some form. Did that make any sense?
http://www.ivyroses.com/Chemistry/GCSE/ ... matter.php

I may take the stand that IT IS BOTH.


Do NOT call me dude. You may call me dudette if you wish. :evilfun:
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


I learn as I write!
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:17 pm

You're telling me that answers.com says that because the particles of matter are so small that you can't observe them, that they're not matter, because you have to observe them with your nose?

Dude.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:21 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:You're telling me that answers.com says that because the particles of matter are so small that you can't observe them, that they're not matter, because you have to observe them with your nose?

Dude.

No. The dudette is telling you that what we call odor is a sensation, regardless of whatever material/s might or might not be involved.
Last edited by James S Saint on Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25046
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:24 pm

So we're back to talking about language instead of objects? I though I said that already like right when I joined this conversation. Someone else did the same thing.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:37 pm

If you scramble the language, you scramble the mind.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25046
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby barbarianhorde » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:46 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
barbarianhorde wrote:All we can know is, matter is a mental concept.

We dunno if it exists out of the mind.

We thinks the mind is the brain and we think the brain is matter. So we think our mind is matter and we know matter from our mind.

We have a word for each of them and these arent interchangeable so they are distinct.


Ideas are mental concepts.
Matter is physical reality albeit how we "see" it, how our minds and eyes see it, isn't necessarily how it is.

Scientists and neurosurgeons touch the brain. It is matter.
I personally do not think of my mind as matter. It is like the scent (mind) of the rose is to the rose I(matter).

Yes, they are distinct.


"matter" is an idea.

Period.

Right?

or is it not an idea?

Yes, of course, it is.

So: without mind, no matter. Logic.


Mr R - try to smell without being conscious. "particle" "nostrils" "enters"
-
now think these things existences without using your mind


Yall well underneath level 101.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:15 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:The movement of matter isn't dependent on an observer. The observation of the movement of matter is.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:19 pm

barbarianhorde


"matter" is an idea.


Inventors have "ideas" or thoughts/reflections in their minds. Are their inventions considered to be a part of matter or matter BEFORE they are created in physical form, before they come to fruition?
What you just said, for me, is like putting the cart before the horse.


or is it not an idea?

You became matter at conception. Before that time, you were simply an "idea" or a non-idea. lol

Yes, of course, it is.

This actually might go back to the scent of the rose ~~ matter or non matter.
Ideas "rise up" from the mind like the scent of the rose rises up. I think that one can even equate an idea to a scent - can one say that an idea is like a sensation or a scent given off by the mind? It is the brain's or the mind's achievement before becoming physical reality of some sort.



So: without mind, no matter. Logic.


Yes, what you say is logical BUT you can just as well say: Without mind, sometime in the future without the utilization of mind, there will be no matter.
Michelangelo looked at the block of marble and saw an "idea" within it. That idea later formed the matter or material from which David sprung in a matter of speaking.
But what he saw was the immaterial or idea within the material.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


I learn as I write!
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:20 pm

James S Saint wrote:If you scramble the language, you scramble the mind.



So stop doing it. If smelling something is a result of matter stimulating your nostrils by moving into them, then why make that metaphor in defense of mind body duality?
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:32 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:
James S Saint wrote:If you scramble the language, you scramble the mind.



So stop doing it. If smelling something is a result of matter stimulating your nostrils by moving into them, then why make that metaphor in defense of mind body duality?

Perhaps if you start by learning what a metaphor is. Then perhaps one day you'll discover who was scrambling and who was straightening .. and the use and limits of metaphor.

... none of which has to do with the point that odor is not a molecule (over-materialization).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25046
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:34 pm

So you've resorted to telling me that I need to understand a metaphor? James, don't let your ego ruin this conversation.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:36 pm

There are better arguments for your position than the ones you're giving. Do you want to swap and you be the one reducing mind to matter and I'll take the opposite stance?
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:06 pm

So you've resorted to telling me that I need to understand a metaphor? James, don't let your ego ruin this conversation.[/quote]
Your ego had already beat me to it.
Mr Reasonable wrote:There are better arguments for your position than the ones you're giving.

No there are not. You are simply not following.

Mr Reasonable wrote:Do you want to swap and you be the one reducing mind to matter and I'll take the opposite stance?

What do you think the "opposite stance" is? And what makes you are in opposition to me?

... like I said .. just not following.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25046
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:05 pm

James, your ego. Please.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:07 pm

If you think that one side or the other in the mind/body debate can defeat the other, then you're not understanding the nature of the problem or the means by which it must be addressed.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:09 pm

To play this game, you can't actually believe that the problem can be resolved. It's an exercise in critical thinking and constructing arguments. Ad homs are evidence of poor arguments.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:11 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:If you think that one side or the other in the mind/body debate can defeat the other, or the means by which it must be addressed.

And if you think that an ingrained drugged up perspective gives you an edge, "then you're not understanding the nature of the problem".

I'll tell you once more, You are not following the conversation.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25046
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:26 pm

So you're sticking with your attack the man strategy here? Very disappointed James. If you're better than that, then act like it.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:28 pm

I mean, just how much ego does it take to presume that you've solved the mind/body problem? Really.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:34 am

You're typing in your sleep.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25046
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:34 am

I see. Your argument is very persuasive. You've just officially solved the mind/body problem. Good work buddy. I'm proud of you.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
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Posts: 24442
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

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