The Reasonable Standard

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Re: The Reasonable Standard

Postby Meno_ » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:10 pm

Sorry for the inadvertent duplication, but not for the unintended duplicity.
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Re: The Reasonable Standard

Postby iambiguous » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:05 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:Like no one in this thread is claiming that there is an objective morality that dictates what the right decisions are for any given situation. But that's what he's talking about...how there isn't one in his view. That's fine. He can think that. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong. That's not the point. The point is that the thread isn't about that and he's not going to stop until it either is, or until the thread is just dead.


Again, let's go back to the OP:

Fixed Cross wrote:An answer to a challenge made in jestful jest by Iambiguous.

http://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2630835

I claim that mr Reasonable is a philosopher, and that his standard is as follows:

Life is good and you need to be powerful to handle that.


So, others might ask, how do we go about examining the gap between Fixed Cross's assessment of Mr Reasonable's subjective standard for living and that which an objectivist might take issue with?

Out in a particular world revolving around a particular context.

Given that, in FC's view, Mr Reasonable is a philosopher.

What then does that make those who don't share this standard?

As for Fixed Cross, I am curious to understand how, as someone who is not arguing for an objective morality [as Mr. R suggests], he squares this with the idea of "value ontology"

How does that actually work given his own conflicts with others pertaining to moral and political values?

My focus is always on reconfiguring general descriptions like...

Life is good and you need to be powerful to handle that

...by situating it out in the world of actual human interactions. What of those who share Mr Reasonable's philosophical standard but insist that the pursuit of "money and hos and clothes" is not a reflection of the "good life" at all?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: The Reasonable Standard

Postby Mr Reasonable » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:41 am

It's a standard, not the standard. So a discussion about whether there's an ultimate objective standard is off topic.
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Re: The Reasonable Standard

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:07 pm

The whole point of this and any such standard is that it is better than average. An average person won't be able to live with such freedom, much less a subaverage person.

Envy is natural before such a standard and as the slaves of ancient times did then, the modern slave does now - lie to himself about the nature of this standard.

So let me be clear: this Reasonable standard is not for just anyone. It is perfectly partial, exclusive, privileged; yet not obscenely so. Reasonably so.

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This R-standard is a standard for the more lion like. To demand such freedom of the ox-like is not something that would occur to me.
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Re: The Reasonable Standard

Postby iambiguous » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:43 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:It's a standard, not the standard. So a discussion about whether there's an ultimate objective standard is off topic.


Well, if that's that case, why bring me into it at all?

Sure, he could have noted that, as a philosopher, you have arrived at a standard for living that revolves around your own personal assumption that "life is good and you need to be powerful to handle that."

Bringing me into it however invites my reaction.

And he certainly knows that my reaction will revolve around bringing that assumption down out of the clouds of abstraction.

Again: any number of philosophers might argree with that standard. But any number of philosophers might balk at the suggestion that the good life revolves around the pursuit of "money and hos and clothes".
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: The Reasonable Standard

Postby iambiguous » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:28 pm

Fixed Cross wrote: The whole point of this and any such standard is that it is better than average. An average person won't be able to live with such freedom, much less a subaverage person.


Okay, how, in a philosophy forum, can one make such a claim and then not expect others to react to it?

Do we or do we not need to connect the dots here between that claim and the life that Mr. Reasonable actually lives?

How philosophically do the choices that he makes actually come to reflect a "better than average" set of behaviors? And what if the freedom that he elects to embody comes into conflict with the freedom that others might choose instead to, say, "occupy Wall Street"?

Clearly you see Herr Nietzsche's uberman mentality here as a noble pursuit.

Though not as clearly perhaps as, say, Satyr?

On the other hand, I see it as just one more existential contraption rooted historically and culturally in dasein. And in conflicting goods. And in political economy.

And that will always be a numbingly complex entanglement of genes and memes.

Besides, would not philosophers be naturally inclined to probe the meaning of such a standard?

Fixed Cross wrote: Envy is natural before such a standard and as the slaves of ancient times did then, the modern slave does now - lie to himself about the nature of this standard.


Again, the assumption that the pursuit of "money, hos and clothes" will "naturally" engender envy in the weaker males. The effeminate slaves?

The irony here being that if you and Satyr and Mr. Reasonable were to explore the actual existential parameters of this standard you'd no doubt be pummelling each other with contempt.

You all embrace the same standard, sure. But it had better be understood in the right way. The way that only the truly rational and virtuous manly-men would embrace it.

Fixed Cross wrote: "One law for ox and lion is oppression"
-Blake

This R-standard is a standard for the more lion like. To demand such freedom of the ox-like is not something that would occur to me.



Yeah, Satyr likes to bring in the lions too. Only he prefers chimps to oxen.

But, in my view, it's the same existential contraption clothed in the garb of the noble savage.

Meanwhile out in the real world it is still the "show me the money" nihilists that own and operate the global economy that makes the world go around.

At least in his own teeny-tiny way Mr. Reasonable can make the claim to be one of them.

But what about you? How on earth is this standard defended as the embodiment of a "value ontology"?

That in particular is what I would like to explore with you.

A new thread perhaps?

No huffing and puffing, just a straight up exchange of philosophical speculations, brought out into the world of actual conflicting goods.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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