The Grand Scheme

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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:15 am

Phyllo (happy Thanksgiving) - what did you make of this thread
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=175698&hilit=ontological+tyranny
It influenced me gigantically, I acquired a great focus on Nietzsche's notion of science as prejudice.
Indeed science is qua method at bottom empirical, but that method is the result still of something; we select the line of empirical inquiry based on non-universal criteria; e.g. convenience, proximity, use, etc. What Sauwelios describes as common sense perhaps, what I might cynically call opportunism - basically it is the human, all too human that is the standard to the knowledge that science is designed to acquire.
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby iambiguous » Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:20 pm

phyllo wrote:
Exactly. How on earth would philosophers ever be able to actually establish that incest is necessarily immoral? How would one's own attitude about it not be embedded existentially in dasein, in conflicting goods -- http://debatepedia.idebate.org/en/index ... ult_incest -- and [ultimately] in politics?
"On earth" one could bring up birth-defects, pressure that would be brought onto the young and the weak to engage in relationships that they don't want and the Westermarck effect.


Sure, those in opposition to incest can bring that up. But how does bringing it up make the arguments of those not opposed to incest go away?

And while it is biologically factual that incestuous sex can result in birth defects, it is also biologically factual that sex between sisters, sex between brothers, sex between family members that preclude the possibilty of pregnancy, obviate that factor.

So, where is the argument -- the philosophical argument -- able to establish that incest is necessarily irrational and lacking in virtue?

And how might this speculation [and the "Westermarck effect"] be made applicable to the Grand Scheme: To 'problematize' "value".

And, in particular, how that might relate to the point I raised above:

Okay, how is to 'problematize' "value" different from to problematize value? And how is that different from to not problematize value?

Let's focus in on behaviors that do come to clash over conflicting value judgments relating to issues like incest, homosexuality and abortion.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby iambiguous » Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:38 pm

Sauwelios wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Sauwelios wrote: Common sense is the thing that might well burn people at the stake for teaching that the earth revolves around the sun...


Yes, but here common sense is able to be examined, explored and tested by science. It can be shown that in fact the earth does revolve around the sun.


No. Science ultimately rests on common sense. Therefore, examining, exploring and testing common sense by science is ultimately circular.


Once again I will acknowledge this: that, as a serious philosopher, you may well be making an extremely important point here that I am simply not able to -- or subconsciously willing to -- understand and accept.

To argue that science ultimately rests on common sense is merely to note the obvious: that common sense here is in sync with the laws of matter, the laws of nature.

In fact, I have always been curious as to why so many folks back then thought the earth was flat. After all, if you looked up into the sky, the moon and the sun were clearly round. Why should the earth be any different?

Instead, I recall that, as a child, "common sense" then revolved more around wondering how the folks "down under" didn't fall off the earth. It seemed we were on the "top" part, and they weren't.

"Common sense" here clashing with the laws of gravity.

And I await patiently your reaction to all of the other points I raised above.

In particular, the part where the Grand Scheme becomes applicable to is/ought conflagrations.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby iambiguous » Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:06 pm

turtle wrote:would you give current examples of ontological tyranny......also an example of really real.....


without-music wrote:That there is an objective reality "out there" to be gotten at, that it can be accessed through rigorous application of the proper method, regardless of person and context, and that the fruit of such a labour is the Truth, a truth transcending historical context, a metaphysical reality, is nothing more than the ontological tyranny at work in science. The Really Real is Lloyd's term for the object of metaphysical realism: a fact transcending knower, method, horizon (in the Gadamerian sense) and context.


And that's before we get to Hume driving a stake between correlation and cause and effect; or Descartes pondering if in fact ontological reality might be attributed to some demon that has but "dreamed" us into existence!

Or dreamed up God to dream up us.

As for who or what dreamed up the demon...

I'm sorry but here we are back again to this:

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

And that we are still grappling with this pertaining to the world of "either/or" speaks volumes regarding the extent to which the moral objectivists claim to have, in turn, grappled with the world of "is/ought".

Naturally, for example. :wink:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby phyllo » Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:16 pm

Sure, those in opposition to incest can bring that up. But how does bringing it up make the arguments of those not opposed to incest go away?
That is one of your strangest expectations ... that an argument should make another argument go away. At least a half dozen posters have told you that arguments don't work that way , including posters that you supposedly respect like OH and Faust. And still you repeat it.
And while it is biologically factual that incestuous sex can result in birth defects, it is also biologically factual that sex between sisters, sex between brothers, sex between family members that preclude the possibilty of pregnancy, obviate that factor.
Then one could present the argument that making homosexual incest acceptable and heterosexual incest unacceptable would be discrimination based on sexual orientation. Thus the preferred solution is to make all incest immoral.
(And in homosexual situations, the young and weak may be pressured into relationships that they don't want.)
So, where is the argument -- the philosophical argument -- able to establish that incest is necessarily irrational and lacking in virtue?
I just said that by bringing up specific consequences, philosophers can bring it down to earth.
Are you saying that referring to aspects such as birth defects and biological aversion as shown by the Westermarck effect are not part of a philosophical argument?
Then what is a legitimate philosophical argument?
And how might this speculation [and the "Westermarck effect"] be made applicable to the Grand Scheme: To 'problematize' "value".
It has nothing to do with the Grand Scheme or value. You asked how philosophers would establish something "on earth" and I responded directly to that.
And, in particular, how that might relate to the point I raised above:

Okay, how is to 'problematize' "value" different from to problematize value? And how is that different from to not problematize value?
I quoted you and replied to the content of the quote.
Let's focus in on behaviors that do come to clash over conflicting value judgments relating to issues like incest, homosexuality and abortion.
I just attempted to focus on incest and the consequences and natural aversions. Immediately your tried to shift to the abstractions of value and the Grand Scheme. :confusion-shrug:
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby phyllo » Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:42 pm

It influenced me gigantically, I acquired a great focus on Nietzsche's notion of science as prejudice.
Indeed science is qua method at bottom empirical, but that method is the result still of something; we select the line of empirical inquiry based on non-universal criteria; e.g. convenience, proximity, use, etc. What Sauwelios describes as common sense perhaps, what I might cynically call opportunism - basically it is the human, all too human that is the standard to the knowledge that science is designed to acquire.
I don't doubt that scientists pursue particular inquiries because of subjective, personal and biased reasons. However, the results of the research have to be objective and unbiased in order to be valid. Biased results will not be repeatable or useful except to people of the same bias.
Science attempts to remove subjective factors by emphasizing quantitative results, predictability and repeatability.
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby phyllo » Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:52 pm

And that's before we get to Hume driving a stake between correlation and cause and effect; or Descartes pondering if in fact ontological reality might be attributed to some demon that has but "dreamed" us into existence!
Which affected science , how?

Which scientists were concerned about "a demon that dreamed us into existence"?

People who do science and engineering don't think in these ways. If you went into a university science or engineering classroom, and presented these ideas, they would laugh at the ridiculousness of it.
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:58 pm

phyllo wrote:
It influenced me gigantically, I acquired a great focus on Nietzsche's notion of science as prejudice.
Indeed science is qua method at bottom empirical, but that method is the result still of something; we select the line of empirical inquiry based on non-universal criteria; e.g. convenience, proximity, use, etc. What Sauwelios describes as common sense perhaps, what I might cynically call opportunism - basically it is the human, all too human that is the standard to the knowledge that science is designed to acquire.
I don't doubt that scientists pursue particular inquiries because of subjective, personal and biased reasons. However, the results of the research have to be objective and unbiased in order to be valid. Biased results will not be repeatable or useful except to people of the same bias.
Science attempts to remove subjective factors by emphasizing quantitative results, predictability and repeatability.


True - there is a deeper point to it though, which is exactly what you formulate, and this is what I took from it and developed, for it to 'influence me gigantically' - namely that the very criteria of " quantitative results, predictability and repeatability" are prejudices, specifically concerning the type of results one accepts as "result", and thus about the phenomena that are eligible to produce scientific knowledge about them - and thus ultimately, about which phenomena "really exist".


Under these criteria:
" quantitative results, predictability and repeatability"

the overriding quality of a valid object of observation becomes that it is capable of being isolated from its context without losing its qualia...
which would exclude life. Thus, reasoning one step further, what science is capable of disclosing and developing then, is something fundamentally other than life....

Hence, the Grandness of the Scheme - the sheer consequences of the mere thought, that puts science in perspective, stretch out beyond all horizons of precedent and cognition.
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby iambiguous » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:41 pm

phyllo wrote:
Sure, those in opposition to incest can bring that up. But how does bringing it up make the arguments of those not opposed to incest go away?
That is one of your strangest expectations ... that an argument should make another argument go away. At least a half dozen posters have told you that arguments don't work that way , including posters that you supposedly respect like OH and Faust. And still you repeat it.


Huh?

John says incest can lead to birth defects. This is a biological fact. Nothing those who argue in favor of incest say can make that go away.

But:

Jane argues that, while this may be true, she is having a sexual relationship with her sister. They love each other dearly and have freely chosen to expand that love to include a physical intimacy. A sexual relationship that precludes the possibility of pregnancy.

That is also a fact.

So both sides express facts about incest that are true, pertaining to their own particular context. Facts the other side cannot make go away.

In other words, each particular sexual context involves any number of facts that can be twisted into either a pro-incest or an anti-incest moral narrative.

So how do philosophers, taking all of this into account, come up with an argument that establishes the optimal [most reasonable/rational] frame of mind? An argument that encompasses the moral obligation of all reasonable/rational men and women in regard to incest.

Where are the arguments from OH or Faust or others that make this go away?

In fact, regarding any moral conflict that we are familiar with there are similar sets of facts that can be configured into a pro or con political agenda.

And while it is biologically factual that incestuous sex can result in birth defects, it is also biologically factual that sex between sisters, sex between brothers, sex between family members that preclude the possibility of pregnancy, obviate that factor.

phyllo wrote: Then one could present the argument that making homosexual incest acceptable and heterosexual incest unacceptable would be discrimination based on sexual orientation. Thus the preferred solution is to make all incest immoral.


Sure they can. Homosexuality is but one more example of facts on the ground that can be twisted into a political prejudice rooted subjectively in dasein and conflicting goods.

But: How does any so-called "preferred solution" not come down to subjective political prejudices rather than to one or another deontological "philosophical" argument in which one is obligated to interpret the facts as consistent with one or another rendition of this:

1] I am rational
2] I am rational because I have access to the ideal
3] I have access to the ideal because I grasp the one true nature of the objective world
4] I grasp the one true nature of the objective world because I am rational


Are not Jacob and Sauwelios and James Saint and all the other objectivists cut from the same cloth here? They might argue for different Kingdoms of Ends, but they all seem convinced that as "serious philosophers" these can in fact be derived in using the tools at their disposal.

In other words, they all hold particular personal opinions about particular behaviors and they try to stuff them into one or another scholastic analysis. Some with God, some without. But it always comes down to one or another set of so-called "natural" or "ideal" behaviors.

You may claim to have demonstrated "how philosophers would establish something 'on earth'" here, but you and I are talking about two very different kinds of demonstrations.

Let's focus in on behaviors that do come to clash over conflicting value judgments relating to issues like incest, homosexuality and abortion.


phyllo wrote: I just attempted to focus on incest and the consequences and natural aversions. Immediately your tried to shift to the abstractions of value and the Grand Scheme. :confusion-shrug:


Natural aversions? Says who? Both John and Jane above argue that it is "natural" to think about incest the way they do.

And "consequences" construed from what point of view regarding what particular context?

Again and again and again:

What I am looking for from moral objectivists [either sacred or secular] is something analogous to this:

1] I was raised in the belly of the working class beast. My family/community were very conservative. Abortion was a sin. Both in and out of church.
2] I was drafted into the Army and while on my "tour of duty" in Vietnam I happened upon politically radical folks who reconfigured my thinking about abortion. And God and lots of other things.
3] after I left the Army, I enrolled in college and became further involved in left wing politics. It was all the rage back then. I became a feminist. I married a feminist. I wholeheartedly embraced a woman's right to choose.
4] then came the calamity with Mary and John. I loved them both but their engagement was foundering on the rocks that was Mary's choice to abort their unborn baby.
5] back and forth we all went. I supported Mary but I could understand the points that John was making. I could understand the arguments being made on both sides. John was right from his side and Mary was right from hers.
6] I read William Barrett's Irrational Man and came upon his conjectures regarding "rival goods".
7] Then, over time, I abandoned an objectivist frame of mind that revolved around Marxism/feminism. Instead, I became more and more embedded in existentialism. And then as more years passed I became an advocate for moral nihilism.


Thus when someone asks me to encompass my point of view regarding abortion as a moral issue, as a value judgment, I can situate my actual changing perspective over time: existentially, for all practical purposes.

And I can note how this particular trajectory culminates in my dilemma above.

But: What if someone asks you? You are either willing [and able] to do the same or you are not.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby phyllo » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:19 pm

Where are the arguments from OH or Faust or others that make this go away?
Either ironic or stupid based on what I posted:
" That is one of your strangest expectations ... that an argument should make another argument go away. At least a half dozen posters have told you that arguments don't work that way , including posters that you supposedly respect like OH and Faust. And still you repeat it."
You may claim to have demonstrated "how philosophers would establish something 'on earth'" here, but you and I are talking about two very different kinds of demonstrations.
As I said, your concept of demonstration is purely subjective and therefore nobody can demonstrate anything to you unless they completely agree with what you are saying.
Natural aversions? Says who?
Westermarck. But since you choose to completely ignore his research, then you can say that there is no natural aversion to incest. Except for the fact that it is a common aversion.
And "consequences" construed from what point of view regarding what particular context?
Got it. There is no way to define consequences. No wonder "the kids" have a field day with you.
Again and again and again:
Sure, post the same stuff over and over.
But: What if someone asks you? You are either willing [and able] to do the same or you are not.
No, I refuse to post the same crap as you.
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby iambiguous » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:13 pm

phyllo wrote:
Where are the arguments from OH or Faust or others that make this go away?
Either ironic or stupid based on what I posted:
" That is one of your strangest expectations ... that an argument should make another argument go away. At least a half dozen posters have told you that arguments don't work that way , including posters that you supposedly respect like OH and Faust. And still you repeat it."
You may claim to have demonstrated "how philosophers would establish something 'on earth'" here, but you and I are talking about two very different kinds of demonstrations.
As I said, your concept of demonstration is purely subjective and therefore nobody can demonstrate anything to you unless they completely agree with what you are saying.
Natural aversions? Says who?
Westermarck. But since you choose to completely ignore his research, then you can say that there is no natural aversion to incest. Except for the fact that it is a common aversion.
And "consequences" construed from what point of view regarding what particular context?
Got it. There is no way to define consequences. No wonder "the kids" have a field day with you.
Again and again and again:
Sure, post the same stuff over and over.
But: What if someone asks you? You are either willing [and able] to do the same or you are not.
No, I refuse to post the same crap as you.


That you allow yourself to be reduced down to intellectual drivel like this does not bode well for the future of our exchanges.

After all, this is the philosophy forum.

Best perhaps to take the route that Turd, Jacob and Satyr have chosen: Ignore the bastard!! :wink:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby phyllo » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:40 pm

That you allow yourself to be reduced down to intellectual drivel like this does not bode well for the future of our exchanges.

I tell you that OH and Faust already told you that arguments don't make other arguments go away and you respond with this:
"Where are the arguments from OH or Faust or others that make this go away?"

Do you even read the posts? Do you understand anything that people write?
FFS

My previous two posts were full of content and you were confused and responded with that kind of nonsense and your usual cut and paste GROOT. Then you have the gall to characterize my posts as drivel. No wonder that everyone is sick and tired of interacting with you.
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby iambiguous » Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:12 pm

phyllo wrote:
That you allow yourself to be reduced down to intellectual drivel like this does not bode well for the future of our exchanges.

I tell you that OH and Faust already told you that arguments don't make other arguments go away and you respond with this:
"Where are the arguments from OH or Faust or others that make this go away?"


You stated that, "[a]t least a half dozen posters have told you that arguments don't work that way." I took that to mean something entirely different. This: that arguments revolving around conflicting goods don't work the way that I construe them: reasonable given a particular set of assumptions.

After all, if arguments can be said to be reasonable given conflicting sets of initial assumptions then we arrive at this:

John says incest can lead to birth defects. This is a biological fact. Nothing those who argue in favor of incest say can make that go away.

But:

Jane argues that, while this may be true, she is having a sexual relationship with her sister. They love each other dearly and have freely chosen to expand that love to include a physical intimacy. A sexual relationship that precludes the possibility of pregnancy.

That is also a fact.

So both sides express facts about incest that are true, pertaining to their own particular context. Facts the other side cannot make go away.


How then do you [or them] respond to that?

Or, regarding abortion, where is the philosophical argument the makes the "good" revolving around the birth of the baby, or the "good" revolving around a pregnant woman's right to kill it go away? We can't live in a world where both goods prevail, right? Thus neither side's agenda succeeds in making the arguments of the other side less true. It merely revolves around a different set of initial assumptions regarding whose life/good ought to prevail.

Back again to William Barrett's "rival goods".

phyllo wrote: My previous two posts were full of content and you were confused and responded with that kind of nonsense and your usual cut and paste GROOT. Then you have the gall to characterize my posts as drivel. No wonder that everyone is sick and tired of interacting with you.


I will let others decide for themselves which of us is inclined to respond more substantively to the points that we raise in our exchanges.

Indeed, perhaps even zinnat himself might be inclined to comment on that. I could at least always count on him to be substantive.

Well, up to a point.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby Sauwelios » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:51 am

Fixed Cross wrote:the very criteria of " quantitative results, predictability and repeatability" are prejudices, specifically concerning the type of results one accepts as "result", and thus about the phenomena that are eligible to produce scientific knowledge about them - and thus ultimately, about which phenomena "really exist".


This. Compare https://books.google.nl/books?id=ob5KBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=%22leo+strauss%22+%22common+sense%22&source=bl&ots=EFwSmGbAj6&sig=2RQE223v1pae7CXX0gWomRGafiE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixqbDt9NLPAhUDcBoKHUHOAZEQ6AEIMTAE#v=onepage&q=%22leo%20strauss%22%20%22common%20sense%22&f=false


iambiguous wrote:To argue that science ultimately rests on common sense is merely to note the obvious: that common sense here is in sync with the laws of matter, the laws of nature.


No. The whole concept of "laws of matter" or "laws of nature" is already a common-sense induction...
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:24 pm

Maniacal Mongoose wrote:The strong suffer what they must just so the weak can do.



So, are you equating inner strength with a form of masochism?
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Sit in a cage and sing?”
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“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:27 pm

Wyld wrote:Yes it does collapse together like that, since freedom and necessity are ultimately the same thing.



In what way are freedom and necessity the same thing? :-k
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:43 pm

shellytrokan wrote:Value and knowledge are the problem of reality. Knowledge can't be first, but value being first means no knowledge.


I don't quite know what you mean by "knowledge can't be first" BUT as for


value being first means no knowledge.


Don't we ultimately base our sense of "value[s]" on what we have observed and experienced both in the positive and the negative - so value can stem from "empirical" knowledge as long as it stems from right and true vision.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:38 am

Sauwelios wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:the very criteria of " quantitative results, predictability and repeatability" are prejudices, specifically concerning the type of results one accepts as "result", and thus about the phenomena that are eligible to produce scientific knowledge about them - and thus ultimately, about which phenomena "really exist".


This. Compare https://books.google.nl/books?id=ob5KBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=%22leo+strauss%22+%22common+sense%22&source=bl&ots=EFwSmGbAj6&sig=2RQE223v1pae7CXX0gWomRGafiE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixqbDt9NLPAhUDcBoKHUHOAZEQ6AEIMTAE#v=onepage&q=%22leo%20strauss%22%20%22common%20sense%22&f=false



Yes.
And what srill went wrong with Husserl is that he still sough for a primordial intelligence, or sense, whereas all that too is first of all a result of a taste.
no one really managed to pick that up from Nietzsche in an Analytic context. Understandable, as it causes the whole Analytic paradigm to evaporate; "A" now doesn't equal itself, as it has no itself; "A" = q? - that is to say it asks a question beyond analysis; it questions man into the world. No longer is the question "does this exist objectively?" but "is this good enough to be recognized into the world?" And this is the question science always already answers before it offers space to think about it.

Nothing is important anymore except the power to attribute importance; Kingmakers are higher than Kings.



Do your questions place you deeper into the world, or do they make you stand outside of it, looking in - or trying - through a glass darkly perhaps?

Rhetorical question.
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby iambiguous » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:08 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:No longer is the question "does this exist objectively?" but "is this good enough to be recognized into the world?" And this is the question science always already answers before it offers space to think about it.


It just seems obvious to me:

What particular question in what particular context pertaining to what particular world: historically, culturally, experientially.

Deeper compared to what? And from what particular point of view?

Is it a point of view able to be demonstrated as in sync with that which all reasonable men and women are obligated to share?

I merely shift the focus here to that which is of interest to me: conflicting human behaviors derived from conflicting value judgments derived from the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein.

Fixed Cross wrote: ...or do they make you stand outside of it, looking in - or trying - through a glass darkly perhaps?

Rhetorical question.


What on earth does this mean? And what does it portend regarding any particular experience that you have had?

Also, as this relates to the Grand Scheme -- To 'problematize' "value" -- what does it mean [existentially, to you] to embody this frame of mind?

Can you relate it all to a particular experience of yours?
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby barbarianhorde » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:32 am

Fixed asks if you dont experience your valuing? Rhetorical question also I hope, otherwise I have more running to do.
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby Meno_ » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:46 am

This is why I have always thought in some cases it is illegitimate to call reading backwards from the last post with only cursory glance into the substance of it - trolling. This last post explaining Cross's comment is right on the money, the outside-inside predicament is
at the crux of all the portensions of identity, power and conflicting value, because that position is the last de-ontological stand, from which there is no escape.


You're out that's it, were it not for the will's inescapable urge to have a scintilla of a view through the darkness. That is, the grace which saves Plato and Nietzche, the point of invaluable touching, if by a mere point. That point, even if superfluous, or vanished, into supposed nothingness, still exists, in the grand view of things.

That point, really, includes the whole universe, proving the simplicity and negative consequence into whose absurdity, total reduction can deliver. Here the identity is resolved totally, and only the grand design of which can ever glimpse into. Reality is an objective pointilistic absurdum, where the absolute power dissolves into the most subtlest of hints.

Nothing to prove, or disprove, sorrily nothing to argue about, either.
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:27 pm

jerkey wrote:This is why I have always thought in some cases it is illegitimate to call reading backwards from the last post with only cursory glance into the substance of it - trolling. This last post explaining Cross's comment is right on the money, the outside-inside predicament is
at the crux of all the portensions of identity, power and conflicting value, because that position is the last de-ontological stand, from which there is no escape.


You're out that's it, were it not for the will's inescapable urge to have a scintilla of a view through the darkness. That is, the grace which saves Plato and Nietzche, the point of invaluable touching, if by a mere point. That point, even if superfluous, or vanished, into supposed nothingness, still exists, in the grand view of things.

That point, really, includes the whole universe, proving the simplicity and negative consequence into whose absurdity, total reduction can deliver. Here the identity is resolved totally, and only the grand design of which can ever glimpse into. Reality is an objective pointilistic absurdum, where the absolute power dissolves into the most subtlest of hints.

Nothing to prove, or disprove, sorrily nothing to argue about, either.


I saw Fixed nodding solemnly when he read this. He muttered also "but there is structure, it is just asymmetrical".


Unfortunately i am here to deliver a less lofty package.


"It is my belief that the left has degenerated so far and modern/radical islam is just leftism, that it would not be productive now to reason wth them; the best thing is to demonstrate oneself. The best outcome is for the left to go to war with itself. The mass import of medieval people into recently liberated lands acts on a chemical level, it reduces the structural integrity of most entities in that continent. It is like emptying a sewage tank over a bed of sleeping children. Its going to condition for the worse the generation now growing up, and philosophy will eventually have to be re invented there, and rebuilt from the ground up.

Its been a while now that "quality papers", equivalents of the NY Times and Washington Post, have been hiring from these new pools of islamized/socialized education, resulting in a constant stream of grammatical errors. So you'll be reading about the racism of those that try to fight against islamization in the language of a person who has apparently not gone to grade school. For all the depravity of the new york times now, it still has plenty of intellectual savvy, it is a paper run by people that can appreciate a sentence. One the one hand this would seem to make it more dangerous - on the other, the debilitating effect of actual morons running the Intelligentsia-sphere is almost absolute.

So what we have in Europe is a couple of hundred millions of cows grazing on increasingly poisonous ground, and stampeding upon anyone who tries to improve that ground.

By far the best prospects are for a phase of nationalist-conservative parties to be elected into command - Geert Wilders can not lead in in the Netherlands, he is no Trump and he is even more hated, but LePen might pull it off in France. That would cause despair among the establishment and imams (i really do think Saudi Arabia is consciously taking over: they would be 'infidels' if they didnt) even beyond what we see in the US now. Far beyond. It would likely result in a lot of armed conflict. But that would in turn lead to islam being revealed for what it is. And that is the aim. Just like it was the major aim of the Trumpen to reveal the inhumanity of the media, and thus cure the US of its most dreadful disease, an aim for Europe would always have to involve exposing the vileness at the core of the religious beliefs that now claim decency."
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby iambiguous » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:16 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:Fixed asks if you dont experience your valuing? Rhetorical question also I hope, otherwise I have more running to do.
\
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Hell, if he ever chooses to come down out of the clouds, we can discuss this ourselves. :wink:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:35 pm

Fixed Cross say he appreciates the reference to Aristophanes. ALso he say you are welcome on his place but just abide the rules and dont get impatient, guys are writing theirs ass off for many hours a day there, had a hand in Trump victory though meming on all sort sof plaforms, reddit, all very serious.
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Re: The Grand Scheme

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:45 pm

My knight barbarianhorde has been banished from here, in his words for repeating moderators words verbatim. I assume that isnt the only issue.

In any case, I, Fixed Cross, come back here now, to say that I pull Barbarianhorde from ILP. He is like Pezer, trying his best to take every single nazi and troll seriously. He also thinks turd ferguson wants me to drop a turd in his mouth as a sexual favor. Wherever that comes from it must be from here, no good, so Im pulling bbhorde.

I'll see about sending another ambassador here, maybe a woman.
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