Atheists should shut up!

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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby James S Saint » Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:46 am

Faust wrote:James - Take "being", for instance. Waste of time. As soon as you contemplate it, you lapse into error. What is "being"? It's nothing. No investigation into "being" has ever, so far as I know, born fruit. You'd do better to contemplate your navel. At least your navel exists.

Aren't all endeavors fruitless until someone finally succeeds? How many times did Edison have to try?

And on that particular issue, I found it fruitful to realize that "to be" or "to exist" means to have affect. If any proposed entity is certain to have absolutely no affect, then it certainly doesn't exist. And that realization leads to some very serious after thoughts in every field of endeavor; Science, Religion, Philosophy, Art, Language,.... And from that thought I created "Affectance Ontology" (an ontology based upon the necessary behavior of affectance and covering literally all fields of study - even military). So I couldn't call it a "waste".
Last edited by James S Saint on Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Dan~ » Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:49 am

Faust wrote:Dan~ I would love a helpful, handy god. Who wouldn't?

The only problem is that there isn't one.
At least not a visible interactive one.

It's not like all atheists hate God.
It's that they have to live without it.
See, it's like making a burger at A&W,
but using oats and carrots and crap for the meat patty.
It tastes wrong. There is no meat.
So from there, we can be called an aemeatist.
We see and taste no meat, therefor dont believe it is a meaty burger.

Other people though, they feel they have to call it meat.
And they dont even call it meat, they call it god beef or something.

Oxygenism is a lot more substantial.
We breath the air. Therefor the air exists.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Arminius » Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:59 pm

Faust wrote: I'll complain about metaphysics all day long.

Don't you have something better to do than complaining all day long? :)
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Moreno » Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:38 pm

Dan~ wrote:
Faust wrote:Dan~ I would love a helpful, handy god. Who wouldn't?

The only problem is that there isn't one.
At least not a visible interactive one.

It's not like all atheists hate God.
It's that they have to live without it.
See, it's like making a burger at A&W,
but using oats and carrots and crap for the meat patty.
It tastes wrong. There is no meat.
So from there, we can be called an aemeatist.
We see and taste no meat, therefor dont believe it is a meaty burger.

Other people though, they feel they have to call it meat.
And they dont even call it meat, they call it god beef or something.

Oxygenism is a lot more substantial.
We breath the air. Therefor the air exists.
Maybe they are experiencing something you are not. Or some of them are.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Moreno » Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:40 pm

Artimas wrote:
Kriswest wrote:Religion and gods are not for everyone. Some of us are left handed, some right handed, some crave something that makes another puke. We have similarities and identicals but, we all have differences. Some need gods some do not. All should respect each other's needs.


Need for what? Fear?

IARe you saying people believe in God because they need fear?
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Kriswest » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:56 pm

:) :) LOL hey people watch horror flicks . But, I do not think need fear is what was meant,,,,, maybe,, I dunno people can be wierd :)
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby matty » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:15 pm

Faust wrote:it means that no matter how much atheist propaganda I read, and it's been a lot, it never goes anywhere.

I'd certainly agree with that, the likes of Dawkins just seem shrill and as moralistic as any preacher. That's the way with propaganda.

Faust wrote:I don't think my atheism is radical at all.

Perhaps the choice of word wasn't ideal, it came more from your statement about being as atheist as it's possible to be. It sort of is radical in that it is striped down, though. It certainly wasn't meant as a pejorative description.

Faust wrote:Theism is just a particular case of metaphysics.

I'm still not clear whether you think this is something that needs to be addressed, philosophically, or just assumed. It seems (note caveat) important to you to address these types of errors, but I don't know whether it's important to you whether anyone agrees or not.

Faust wrote:Religion is politics. Politics is necessary. But it's not philosophy. Fighting over whether or not there is a god is almost always (I'll add that qualifier, sure) politics. It's just not philosophy. Or usually very interesting.

I think it can be entertaining, but obviously not philosophical for that. I feel like there's a way in which that issue can be used to demonstrate philosophical and non-philosophical ways of thinking, but I guess you'd say there are much better ways of doing that.

As for the point about politics, do you mean that religion is about taking sides?

Faust wrote:Take "being", for instance. Waste of time. As soon as you contemplate it, you lapse into error.

Being is a question of language, though, isn't it? It's important for how we talk about things.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Artimas » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:54 pm

Moreno wrote:
Artimas wrote:
Kriswest wrote:Religion and gods are not for everyone. Some of us are left handed, some right handed, some crave something that makes another puke. We have similarities and identicals but, we all have differences. Some need gods some do not. All should respect each other's needs.


Need for what? Fear?

IARe you saying people believe in God because they need fear?


No, because they do fear and also fear god. It is both ignorance and coercion.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

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"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Faust » Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:54 am

Arminius wrote:
Faust wrote: I'll complain about metaphysics all day long.

Don't you have something better to do than complaining all day long? :)
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Philosophy without metaphysics is like science without physics. This would mean the beginning of the end - in both cases.


If I had anything better to do, I would be doing it. Philosophy is, in the end, an art and not a science.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Arminius » Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:50 am

Faust wrote:
Arminius wrote:
Faust wrote: I'll complain about metaphysics all day long.

Don't you have something better to do than complaining all day long? :)
_______________________________________________________________

Philosophy without metaphysics is like science without physics. This would mean the beginning of the end - in both cases.


If I had anything better to do, I would be doing it. Philosophy is, in the end, an art and not a science.

I am not saying that philosophy is science, although it partly is of course (duh!), but I am saying that "philosophy without metaphysics is like science without physics". For this comparison it is absolutely irrelevant whether philosophy is science or not.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Faust » Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:15 am

I disagree, Army. The Arts without Abstract Expressionism would still be The Arts. And in the main, better for it. Comedy would still be comedy without Tim Allen. And it would certainly be funnier.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Faust » Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:19 am

matty - That religion is a particular case of metaphysics - it's just obvious at first glance, is it not? Does anyone indeed disagree? I do not think this is even a little bit controversial. Perhaps I'm wrong.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Meno_ » Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:49 am

Metaphysics is a study in reference to the beyond, the beyond of nature.

Religion is practices and dogma in reference to higher powers. There may be a perceived overlap, as when
the higher powers are not understood or perceived to be co-incidental to nature, but generally they are distinguished by the later's subscription to reliance,
whereas the former only ascribe to the study beyond
nature, including conscious, human endeavors and thoughts.

Although early metaphysics did not concern itself with religion, the broader philosophy, did, as can be seen with the preoccupation with the pagan gods.
Metaphysical questions relating to ontic issues such as universals, and causation, did indirectly influence the anthropomorphic behavior of those gods, but that just about sums up the relationship.

Only much later did philosophy of religion become more central to philosophic thought, especially after Kant sealed up metaphysics, inviting religion to fill the void.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Meno_ » Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:00 am

Faust, You are not wrong, only your concepts are unwarranted stretched toward and through an impassible derivation of the sameness of religion and metaphysics.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby matty » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:38 am

Faust, I think you were on much stronger terms when you said that theism is metaphysics. Unless you're claiming that any metaphysical elements are fatally corrupting to everything they touch then I'd say there is more to religion than that - ethical and social features that are still of value to us.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby James S Saint » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:16 am

A religion is a particular philosophy from a particular ontological construct (metaphysical construct) being put into social practice. Every ontology is a conceptual model of reality based upon someone's conjecture. Modern "physics" (formerly known as "natural philosophy") is no different. In each era and in each social region, one particular ontological construct gains more dominant belief as "The Truth" than others, hence separate religions.

Science became the most recent means to establish firm belief and built a particular ontological construct that is considered "The Truth" in this era and region. Despite empirical success, its ontology has been proven to be less than perfect (aka "not truth"). But that hasn't stopped Science from becoming the latest religion with all of the same trappings; dogma, ostracizing, blessings, condemnations, garbs, prophets, worshipful followers, priests, preachers, pastures, evangelists, churches, temples,.... Science is merely the religion of "technology" (hence all of the math) with the names changed so as to help in the effort for wealthy men to become gods ... that never ending wet dream that perverts everything Man ever does.

"Metaphysics" merely refers to the principles behind the physics. There is nothing magical about it but in the past, before the method of science, metaphysics was cursed with an enormity of speculative and "superstitious" ontology. Names of conceptual entities were freely invented so as to fill the gaps of ignorance (exactly like modern day quantum physics, fairy-tale physics). And thus a great many people today have a loathing attached to the word "metaphysics". In reality, every theory in science is metaphysics. But they don't dare call it that.

Theism is the use of theory, although the word is used more specifically to target prior religions that involved a supreme "god" - a "Grand Unified Theory" for everything. The atheist arguing against a "God" is actually arguing against Science as well, merely ignorant of it due to the change in names. The religion of Science demands that other religions be seen as entirely bad, evil, and wrong while itself is promoted as the new Truth and savior of Mankind via the new sword called "technology" ("Worship no god before ME"). Anyone speaking against technology is black-marked as "extremist" (aka "devil") and if in any way a potential threat, a "terrorist" (aka "demon").

Only the names have changed. The people are the same power lusting maniacs as always, using the exact same methods as always other than better ensuring their success via the weapon known as the "scientific method".

It has always been:
1) Metaphysics (ontological construct)
2) Philosophy (a recommended manner of thinking and behaving)
3) Religion (a required way of thinking and behaving)

And always driven by power lust and jealousy:
"Nothing new under the Sun" .. except for the tic of the tech and the tech of the tic.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Faust » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:42 am

jerkey - I'm not going to argue about your reading comprehension abilities, but thanks for weighing in.

matty - I am very much claiming that metaphysics corrupts everything it touches. I did mention in an earlier post that religion is also politics. None of the ways in which I would slander either religion nor metaphysics is exhaustive by itself. As I said, I could complain about either all day. However, religion is by no means entirely objectionable.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Arminius » Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:42 pm

Faust wrote:The Arts without Abstract Expressionism would still be The Arts. And in the main, better for it. Comedy would still be comedy without Tim Allen. And it would certainly be funnier.

You are slightly off-topic, Fausty.

Again:
Arminius wrote:Philosophy without metaphysics is like science without physics. This would mean the beginning of the end - in both cases.
Arminius wrote:I am saying that "philosophy without metaphysics is like science without physics". For this comparison it is absolutely irrelevant whether philosophy is science or not.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Pembrew » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Kriswest wrote:
Artimas wrote:
Kriswest wrote:
Need for what? Fear?

IARe you saying people believe in God because they need fear?


No, because they do fear and also fear god. It is both ignorance and coercion.


It's also true for atheists. The drive behind most atheism is the fear of someone other than yourself as judge over your actions. Atheism vs religion, that battle is always gonna go down to morality wars. Atheism morals will always be dictated by the majority or the powerful, whilst religious nuts will base it of their god(s).
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Faust » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:42 pm

Army - snappy comeback.
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:16 pm

Yes, forbid anybody from questioning the religious fairy tales of others. :lol:
Civilization is a ship of fools headed to a one way destination of catastrophe and annihilation, its many captains populated by asshole-idiots that all agree it is unsinkable.

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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:34 pm

CelineK wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:Religious people believe in magic.


sure Life came out of NOTHING.... how magical is that? :mrgreen:


The cosmic universe has always existed in some form or another.

If anything the big bang theory was created to satisfy a religious public consumption.
Civilization is a ship of fools headed to a one way destination of catastrophe and annihilation, its many captains populated by asshole-idiots that all agree it is unsinkable.

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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Arminius » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:44 pm

Faust wrote:Army - snappy comeback.

Off-topic again.

Do you know the Lord and Mephistopheles? :)

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe wrote:Der Herr: Kennst du den Faust?
Mephistopheles: Den Doktor?
Der Herr: Meinen Knecht!
Mephistopheles: Fürwahr! er dient Euch auf besondre Weise.
Nicht irdisch ist des Toren Trank noch Speise.
....
Translation:
The Lord: Do you know Faust?
Mephistopheles: The doctor?
The Lord: My servant.
Mephistopheles: Ah, he serves you well, indeed!
He scorns earth's fare and drinks celestial mead.
....
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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Arminius » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:47 pm

Reference: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=190138&p=2600387#p2600385 .

Source: Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Faust, Prolog im Himmel (Prologue in Heaven).
________________________________

Another one:

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe wrote:Der Herr: ....
Es irrt der Mensch, so lang er strebt.
Translation:
The Lord: ....
Man errs, till he has ceased to strive.

Source: Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Faust, Prolog im Himmel (Prologue in Heaven).

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Re: Atheists should shut up!

Postby Kriswest » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:09 am

Pembrew wrote:
Kriswest wrote:
Artimas wrote:IARe you saying people believe in God because they need fear?


No, because they do fear and also fear god. It is both ignorance and coercion.


It's also true for atheists. The drive behind most atheism is the fear of someone other than yourself as judge over your actions. Atheism vs religion, that battle is always gonna go down to morality wars. Atheism morals will always be dictated by the majority or the powerful, whilst religious nuts will base it of their god(s).

Dude you got your quotes wrong
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