Philosophy and Art

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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:36 pm

Faust wrote:Ummmm.... philosophy is an art.

The fact is that philosophy and art are not the same, regardless whether one of them is subordianted or superordinated to the other.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Faust » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:49 pm

Category error.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:24 pm

You are wrong.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:36 pm

Philosophy and art are not the same. Faust, you are wrong.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:50 pm

let us think about this.....

philosophy can be art, it just isn't right now....

for example, we consider works of fiction, words put together,
as art, so philosophy as words put together can be art, at least
theoretically....

why philosophy hasn't been art is because philosophers have followed
such bad writers as Kant and Hegel and haven't followed such
good writers as Nietzsche or Camus... both of whom have written
"philosophical" works of art.......

it is both the language used and format used that has prevented philosophy
from being art.....both of which comes from not trying to turn philosophy
into art..... if we follow Kant or Hegel we can never have philosophy
as art....

Philosophy should sing and dance as Nietzsche thought it should, but that
comes with an understanding that philosophy is not about creating systems
or logic chopping or following Spinoza in creating a book with axioms and
corollaries and this follows this.....philosophy can be art if it is about
who we are and what is possible for the human to be or to become...
we can be or we can work on becoming.....I believe it is more important
that we strive to becoming and not just to be......and our philosophy should
reflect that and thus becomes art....."Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance"
is art as is the book, "Sophie's world"

Philosophy can be and ought to be Art.. as we know art..... it just
takes some effort and imagination for it to do so.....

Edit: another philosophical book is "The Razor's Edge"


Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:40 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:let us think about this.....

philosophy can be art, it just isn't right now....

for example, we consider works of fiction, words put together,
as art, so philosophy as words put together can be art, at least
theoretically....

why philosophy hasn't been art is because philosophers have followed
such bad writers as Kant and Hegel and haven't followed such
good writers as Nietzsche or Camus... both of whom have written
"philosophical" works of art.......

Philosophers are bad artists, artists are bad philosophers. Is that what you mean actually?

Kant and Hegel were good philosophers, if not the best philosophers of all times, whereas Nietzsche and Camus were bad philosophers, especially Camus, but good philosophic artists.

If that is what you mean, then I agree.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby phyllo » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:49 pm

Camus was alive. As alive as Sisyphus. Philosophy was alive in him.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:54 pm

Arminius wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:let us think about this.....

philosophy can be art, it just isn't right now....

for example, we consider works of fiction, words put together,
as art, so philosophy as words put together can be art, at least
theoretically....

why philosophy hasn't been art is because philosophers have followed
such bad writers as Kant and Hegel and haven't followed such
good writers as Nietzsche or Camus... both of whom have written
"philosophical" works of art.......

Philosophers are bad artists, artists are bad philosophers. Is that what you mean actually?

Kant and Hegel were good philosophers, if not the best philosophers of all times, whereas Nietzsche and Camus were bad philosophers, especially Camus, but good philosophic artists.

If that is what you mean, then I agree.


K: have you actually read Kant or Hegel, they are both terrible artists AND
terrible philosophers.... whereas I believe both Nietzsche and Camus were
better artist AND better philosophers..... both Kant and Hegel wrote crap
disguised as philosophy and no one could tell because of the language
they both used which hid their crap under unending deluge of meaningless
words like spirit......

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:28 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:Philosophy can be and ought to be Art.

Philosphy does not ought to be art.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:28 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
Arminius wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:let us think about this.....

philosophy can be art, it just isn't right now....

for example, we consider works of fiction, words put together,
as art, so philosophy as words put together can be art, at least
theoretically....

why philosophy hasn't been art is because philosophers have followed
such bad writers as Kant and Hegel and haven't followed such
good writers as Nietzsche or Camus... both of whom have written
"philosophical" works of art.......

Philosophers are bad artists, artists are bad philosophers. Is that what you mean actually?

Kant and Hegel were good philosophers, if not the best philosophers of all times, whereas Nietzsche and Camus were bad philosophers, especially Camus, but good philosophic artists.

If that is what you mean, then I agree.


K: have you actually read Kant or Hegel - they are both terrible artists AND
terrible philosophers

I have read Kant and Hegel more intensively than you, because I have read them in their original language German. Yes, it is sometimes difficult to read them, especially Hegel, but that just does not make them "terrible philosophers". That is just what a philosopher does not need to be: an artist. And an artist does not need to be a philosopher. That is just what I am saying.

If you want to read art, then read art.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:I believe both Nietzsche and Camus were
better artist AND better philosophers..... both Kant and Hegel wrote crap
disguised as philosophy and no one could tell because of the language

You do not know their original language.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:they both used which hid their crap under unending deluge of meaningless
words like spirit Kropotkin

You are writing nonsense.

Have you not read what I replied?

Arminius wrote:Philosophers are bad artists, artists are bad philosophers.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:36 pm

If you prefer art, then be honest and just say it.

By the way:
Have you ever read mathematics books?
Have you ever read logic books?
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Alf » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:24 am

Isn't it basically the same discussion about a pseudo dualistic problem here on ILP: "Logic versus Ethics", "Rationality versus Irrationality", "Kant or Hegel versus Schopenhauer or Nietzsche" ... and so on and so forth? To me, these dualisms are pseudo dualisms, not like real dualisms, for instance: "Ideality versus Reality", "Subjectivity versus Objectivity".
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:31 am

And a further example: "Spirit versus Nature".
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Alf » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:39 pm

Couldn't we subsume the both dualisms "Spirit versus Nature" and "Ideality versus Reality" under one dualism?
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:59 pm

I would not.

And if I did, I would subsume both under the dualism "Subjectivity versus Objectivity".
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:22 pm

Arminius wrote:

Philosophers are bad artists, artists are bad philosophers.


Are you speaking exclusively of painted canvases and sculptures when you use the term *artists*?

Would you also include writers and poets within Art? Theirs is also Art.


Philosophers might make bad artists insofar as an artist's canvas or sculpture goes since it does take a lot of talent to do what a good or great artist does ...some might not even be able to color within the lines...

BUT I might suggest that the artist himself; namely, the one who is also the writer or poet, along with the painter of canvases, might also be a good philosopher.

Would you agree that an artist is one who does or tries to show the reality of life in both the concrete and the abstract?
The one who reaches below the surface of things to reveal what nature is and does and defines truth and meaning.
The one who shows us, gives us another interpretation or perception insofar as how we can look at something?

Isn't this ALSO what the philosopher does, Arminius?
But perhaps some are just not capable of seeing how both can flow through and harmonize with each other.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:33 pm

As I have already said, writers and poets are artists too.

Artists do not always and/or not entirely show the reality (think of certain surrealists for exxample), but they actually should.

Philosophers and artists have similarities, as I have already said too, but they are not the same.
Last edited by Arminius on Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Alf » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:58 pm

Salvador Dali himself said once that his art only shows how expensive it is. :wink:

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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:41 am

What Salvador Dali also said is this: "Surrealim is destructive, but it destroys only what it considers to be shackles limiting our vision."

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But the posterior destructivism destroys more than the previous surrealism did.

Architecture for example:

Arminius wrote:A deconstructivist architect is not somebody who dismantles buildings, but somebody who localizes inherent "problems" to the buildings. The deconstructivist architect treats the pure forms of the architectural tradition like a "psychiatrist" his "patients" – he ascertains the "symptoms of a suppressed impurity", as Philip Johnson und Mark Wigley wrote in 1988 (cf. "Deconstructivist Architecture", p. 11). It is just the same old megalomaniac architecture.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Lump » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:50 am

Arminius wrote:The similarities between philosophy and art are not caused by an accident.

What do you think about the similarities, the analogies?
Not at all. Philosophy means "love of wisdom" so things has to make sense, and serve a potential/purpose. Art doesn't have to be useful or sever any purpose, that is an unwise conclusion.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:08 am

Lump wrote:
Arminius wrote:The similarities between philosophy and art are not caused by an accident.

What do you think about the similarities, the analogies?
Not at all.

:?:

Lump wrote:Philosophy means "love of wisdom" so things has to make sense, and serve a potential/purpose. Art doesn't have to be useful or sever any purpose ....

That is what I am saying. 8)
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Alf » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:26 am

Philosophy must be very spiritual, since it has almost only to do with thinking, which means: logic.
Art is different from that.
So both are not the same, but have similarities.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:18 pm

Alf wrote:Philosophy must be very spiritual, since it has almost only to do with thinking, which means: logic.
Art is different from that.
So both are not the same, but have similarities.


Mathematical thinking and I would say Science, which include Math Th. will mean logic.

I would suggest that Philosophy does not necessarily have to include logic but I may be wrong here but that is my intuition.

Yes, Philosophy is about thinking, a search for truth wisdom and meaning of things of reality. That path does not always include logic though it would be a good, necessary thing if logical, analytical cognitive thinking was a part of that.

You do not see the spiritual as also being part of feelings and emotions? Do those things play no role in philosophy to you?
What is a human being? A computer, a robot?
Doesn't spirit/spiritual also have to do with the way in which we use our Energy, how we perceive and observe things?
Where does the spiritual come from?
We are more than just a rational side.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Alf » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:27 pm

Food for thought or for illustration.

Do you think that a picture can be thought?
Do you think that a thought can be illustrated?

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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:03 pm

Alf wrote,


Food for thought or for illustration.

Do you think that a picture can be thought?


I think that you have probably heard the expression: A picture is worth a thousand words.

It is quite obvious that a picture can come from thought or as you worded it - can be thought. An artist views something and at some point his imagination and thinking brings it to fruition as some art form.


But here is definitely a picture, though it is actually a sculpture, which portrays thought or is thought. One does not need to know what he is thinking but there is thought there.

Thought.jpg
Thought.jpg (5.88 KiB) Viewed 87 times


I happen to love Scott Mutter's work. Yes, it is surrealism or surrational.


Picture as Thought.jpg
Picture as Thought.jpg (76 KiB) Viewed 87 times


My favorite for some reason.

A lyric I wrote isn't meant to define this image but to speak to it and at the same time to introduce a truism of human nature:

I'm a pilgrim on the edge,
on the edge of my perception
We are travelers at the edge,
we are always at the edge of our perceptions.
--Scott Mutter, Surrational Image


A more perfect world.jpg
A more perfect world.jpg (57.93 KiB) Viewed 87 times


...This translocation of imagery emphasizes the extreme degree to which we are operating in a geometric, linear, rectangular pattern of existence in the systems and environment we've built around us. What else is there or could there be?"

--Scott Mutter, Surrational Images


https://www.photographymuseum.com/mutter/escalator.html

These pictures can be said to BE thought as they were derived from thought.


Do you think that a thought can be illustrated?


See above.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


I learn as I write!
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