a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:35 am

I’ve heard this argument a million times.

It’s a moral nihilist saying: “none of us chose our lives so how are we guilty of anything?”

Seems populist eh?

Doesn’t work that way. You’re basically writing a huge sign that says “please send me to hell!, I’ll always forgive you!”

Peter, you shouldn’t be expected to understand the spirit world ...

But even outside the spirit world, to say consent violation is just a religion....

Oh man! You’re fucked!
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:46 pm

These last few days, I have been haunted by this idea...

and trying to find a solution....

it has always been assumed that our human existence, has meaning....

that we human beings, that we have some sort of meaning to our existence.....

but that is an assumption....

do we have any evidence that our existence has meaning?

no....

I look about the room I am writing in, the dining room, which connects
to the living room and the kitchen...the room where we cook our meals,
the room we eat our meals and the room where we have a couch and a TV set.....

these are just activities....eating, preparing and watching TV.....

there is no meaning in any of these rooms....

one would think that something as important as the meaning of life,
we would have it near us in some fashion...

now for many, work provides them with meaning...but that is, once again,
an assumption....I have worked for over 40 years and I haven't seen work as
offering me meaning...... and why?

Because work cannot offer us meaning because work deals with unimportant
matters like money/profits, titles, status and in some cases, fame......

there is nothing in work that provides us with meaning...

now I can hear some, shouting, how can you say that? work does provide us
with meaning......how, how can work provide you or anyone with meaning when
work is about the mundane, the banal of existence.....for example, my factory lite
job... where I weigh and scan produce and cans of corn and I stand in one place
for 8 hours... there is no dignity or excellence in my job, a monkey could do it if they could
only count out change....

for most people, there is no dignity or excellence in doing their job.....

most people's job is boring, monotonous, repetitive, dull and dreary......

so how can we say the work, our job provides us with meaning?

so we seek meaning in other aspects of our lives....

as millions of people have done, within religion or within such fantasies
as in some sort of spirt realm or with booze and drugs and sex....our rock
and roll fantasies.....

in fact, I would suggest that this search for meaning is what has driven
people in our "modern" age... and this would suggest that somehow we
lost or perhaps never notice that we didn't have, any sort of meaning in our
lives.....

our "modern" question of existence is quite simply this,
what is the meaning of our lives? both individually and collectively.....

for everything that is true of us individually, is also true of us collectively....

we spend our lives searching for meaning........

both individually and collectively....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:52 pm

Peter, the native Americans have a quote you may find interesting....

“What people sing and talk about is what they lack, and Americans always sing about love”

The implication being that Americans lack love.

So... you’re thinking about meaning. Maybe it’s appropriate to say that we lack meaning.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:33 pm

we have clothes that are "one size fits all".....

which means a piece of clothing can fit anyone..
it doesn't matter what size we might be, we can find some
clothes that will fit us....or we can even narrow that down a
bit by clothes that are more limited... for example, a pair of pants
for men that might be 36 32.... which means a 36 waist and a 32 inch
long inseam....but even that doesn't really get to what a person might
look like...a person might be only 5ft tall and thus rather heavy or perhaps
the person is really tall in the body which means they have short legs.....

the sizing, 36 by 32, doesn't really take into account what a person might look like....

we have the "one size fits all" in morality.... "thou shall not kill"
but we might have a situation where "killing" is not only appropriate but warranted......

but we also have one size fits all in the meaning of life.....

we see in the meaning of life, god, heaven, hell, angels and the like
being a "one size fits all" meaning of life....and we can see other
"meanings" to be one size fits all.... how do we understand the meaning of life
given we might have many, diverse understandings of what it the goal/meaning o
of life?

to say the "meaning of life" is..... is to marginalize anyone whose vision or understanding
of the meaning of life is different then yours....

but to suggest that the meaning of life is individual, is to miss that the meaning of
life must also be collective... it must include everyone and I don't see how one
or two suggestions of the "meaning of life" can include everyone.. or even the vast
majority of people....

for example, the questions of existence, the Kantian questions, "what am I to do"
"what are we to do" or the question of "what am I to believe in?" to be
"what are we to believe in?" can be only one or two possibilities.....

just the diversity of life suggest that the answer to the question of the
"meaning of life" has many diverse, different answers....one size cannot fit
all in regards this question of "what is the meaning/goal of life?"

think about Darwin's answer to the question, "what is the meaning of life?"....

that there doesn't seem to be a biological answer to the question, "what is the
meaning of life?"

if Darwin is correct, and we have no reason to suspect that he is wrong,
then we have no biological possibility to answer the question,
"what is the meaning/goal of life?"

if life is the result of random evolutionary effects, then how can we even think
that life has some possibility of having meaning/or a goal?

one could say that the history of human beings after the French revolution,
is one of trying to find the "meaning of life" both individually and collectively....

let us think about the ism's and ideologies of the 20th century...
let us think about two of them, Fascism in the guise of Nazism,
and communism....

both ism's were attempts to answer the question, "what is the meaning of life?"

we can say the exact same thing about capitalism and the quest for meaning in
the guise of democracy and dictatorships.....

each ism is an attempt to answer the question, "what is the meaning of life?"

or one size fits all... in capitalism or in communism or in democracy or in
dictatorships....

we have given the answer to the question "what is the meaning in life?" in terms
of capitalism or democracy or communism.. in the last century and each answer has
failed because it has been so limited and narrow....it does not and cannot
answer either the individual or the collective answer as to "what is the meaning of
life?"

one size does not and cannot fit all.... either in clothing nor in finding our
answers to the questions of existence....

what does this tell me?

that we have not searched in the right direction.....

quite often the answer to difficult questions are found in
a different direction then we think it might be......

so, let us discard the normal answers to the question of
"what is the meaning of life?"....

let us discard god or heaven and hell as part of the normal answers to
the questions of existence.....

let us discard answers like political answers like dictatorships and monarchies
and democracies... let us discard economic answers like capitalism
and communism.....and let us discard religious answers like Buddhism
and Catholicism...........

and what is left?

that is the problem... we have so limited our answers to just the political
and economic and religious that we have narrowed our search into
very limited possibilities.......

and why? why would we want to limit our answers to such narrow and
limited possibilities...

because it allows us to escape a real search for what it means to be human....

if we limit what is possible to a few possibilities, then we don't have any
real responsibility to find what is truly "our" possibility in life....

we can simply escape a real search for what is possible by making our
answers fit into a limited scope of the possibilities....

democracy, communism, religion, the political... economic,
each of these limited answers are ways we use to escape real
accountability to our understanding of "what is the meaning of life?"...

we use the old, time tested answers to what is "the meaning of life?" instead
of a real, honest investigation into "what is the meaning of life?"

we use old answers that did work before the various revolutions,
the political revolution like the the "French revolution" and the
"Industrial revolution" and even the much older, "scientific revolution"....

we answer our questions of existence as if these revolutions never
occurred....

we have failed to understand where exactly we stand in this midst of
our history.... we act as if the "political revolutions" never occurred..
and we try to spot our place in the universe based on this...
and it cannot be so because the various revolutions have occurred
and we must come to grips with them.....and we haven't...

we haven't come to grips with what Darwin and evolution has
told us about our nature and our place in the universe....

if Darwin is right, then we have no readily available answer
to the question, "what is the meaning of life?"

if we can find our "meaning of life" before we destroy ourselves,
then we have a shot, a possibility of real answers and real possibilities
to the question "what is the meaning of life?"..............

perhaps the sole question in our "modern" world is simply this,

"what is the meaning/goal of life?"

and the answer will dictate where we go from here....

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:44 pm

Peter,

The meaning/purpose of life is to eradicate consent violation. Every being in existence agrees with this.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:03 pm

we can think about every single ism and culture as being
another attempt to create meaning and possibilities in our lives....

we have, among other possibilities, the Cancel culture,
the incel culture, political correctness, MAGA culture,
nationalism (white power) culture, BLM, blue lives matter,
neo-nazi culture, the capitalism culture,

in fact, every single attempt to create a "culture" is another
attempt to create meaning and purpose in our lives...
and the very number of these attempts show us how we don't have
meaning or a goal/purpose in life........ because if we did have real meaning/
purpose in life, we wouldn't need these various substitutes for a real
meaning and purpose in life.....

and that is exactly what these various "cultures" are, a substitute for
a "true" or a "real" meaning of life or purpose to life.......

we have no purpose or meaning in life, so we substitute such cultures
as BLM or "white power" in an attempt to create meaning/purpose in our lives....

if there is one thing and one thing only, I can say about "modern" life it is this,
we "moderns" are empty vessels without meaning and purpose in our existence....

so it is a "bad" thing that we "moderns" don't have meaning or purpose in
our lives? It is only bad if we don't use this emptiness to engage in some
sort of search for meaning or purpose in our lives......

but we hide, we pretend and we fail to see how our emptiness is preventing us
from seeing the truth about our lives....we are without meaning and purpose....
but we hide from that by the techniques I have listed, drugs, sex, meaningless
attempts to create meaning and purpose with empty possibilities like
nationalism and neo-nazi and BLM......

now such possibilities as "white power" is an attempt to create meaning and purpose...

but these ism's are failures because they don't reach the heart of what it means
to be human......

they concentrate on one aspect or another aspect of human existence, without
engaging in the whole or entire aspect of being human.... we are more then
just racists or enlightened or tolerant.... these are just aspects of what it means to
be human......important aspects to be sure, but simply aspects/parts of what it
means to be human.....

we engage in possibilities like nationalism and neo-nazi because they are
such narrow and limited possibilities of being human.....we engage in
seeing the tree's and we miss the forest of what it means to be human.....

and within every possibility that is individual, we must also engage
in those possibilities, collectively... and that is what fails in our
limited pursuit of possibilities... we narrow our search down to
our individual self, but we fail to see that any possibility for
individual engagement must also be an engagement collectively....

I can only see what is possible for me individually, when I must see my
possibilities as both individual possibilities and, and collective possibilities....

we must see both the individual tree's and the forest at large......

and we haven't learned to do this yet.....

perhaps that is what is next, learning to see ourselves as
both as individuals and as part of the collective....

increasing our vision to include us individually and to see ourselves
as part of a collective.....

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:34 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Peter,

The meaning/purpose of life is to eradicate consent violation. Every being in existence agrees with this.



K: my, you are the gift that keeps on giving.....

Your faith in your religion of "consent violation" is secured...
but by doing so, you have the faith that a Christian has in
Jesus and god and the faith a Buddhist has in the Buddha
and the "truth" that all is suffering and the point of this
existence is to eradicate suffering....
and the faith that the followers of Marx has in communism
and the faith of the followers of capitalism have in capitalism.....

all it is, is faith....

and it would never occur to you, that you might be wrong,
just as it would never occur to a follow of Marx, that he was wrong
or a follower of Christianity to think that Jesus was wrong or that
god was wrong......

you have fixated upon the tree and missing the forest...
a common issue with those who have fixated upon certain
issues of faith such as nationalism (white power) and fixated
upon BLM and political correctness and any other fixation upon
some ism or ideology meant to give one meaning or purpose in life.....

your fixation upon "consent violation" is meant to give you meaning
and purpose in life...but what if you are wrong? Because of your
inability to see other possibilities in life as giving us humans,
meaning and purpose in our life.. you can only see "consent violation" as
being the only game in town....the only possibility for meaning
and purpose in a human being life, as being "consent violation"...

but I reject that.... because we can have any number of
possibilities being the "meaning and purpose/goal of life".....

is "consent violation" a possibility for meaning and purpose,
as long as it is connected with other possibilities.... because
we have tried for our human existence, to connect meaning/purpose
as being with god or with faith, or with some other ism or ideology......

this attempt has clearly failed.. because we still argue and debate
over what is the meaning and purpose/goal of life.....

no one answer has been the solution to the question of "what is the meaning/purpose
of life?".....

and as this question has bedeviled human beings since the beginning of time,
we must at least acknowledge that either we have the wrong question or
we haven't see our way clear to an answer that would seem to apply to
everyone..... because if the meaning/purpose of life is in "one size fits all"
proposition, then we would have already found the answer and have acted
upon it......

so the answer to the question, "what is the meaning/purpose of life"
is only applicable to individuals, and only certain individuals at that,
then there is no universal answer to the question of "what is the meaning/purpose
of life".....and frankly, we can stop looking if the answer is only applicable to
one individual and one individual only.....every man for himself/herself in regards
to the meaning/ purpose of life.....

so, do we engage in the pursuit of the meaning of life as an individual pursuit
or is it both a individual and collective pursuit?

Camus once wrote that the only question of human existence was suicide,
I would suggest that the real question of existence is this question of
the meaning/purpose of existence.... if we are unable to find any meaning
or purpose in life, then and only then would suicide become a viable solution.....

as Camus thought... he thought existence had no meaning or purpose.....

so, we have another modern person thinking that existence is pointless
and without meaning or purpose....

did a person before the various revolutions, say a Voltaire, would he
have thought that human existence was meaningless or without purpose?

and having read Voltaire, I can say that he took the meaning and purpose
of human existence as a given proposition... it didn't needed to be stated
because it was patently obvious, to Voltaire at least, that human existence did have
a meaning/purpose.......

and it was obvious to anyone before the various revolutions, scientific, political,
economic, industrial... that human existence did have a meaning/purpose and that
was so obvious that it didn't even needed to be stated out loud...

it was an given assumption that human existence did have meaning and
purpose..... and the modern revolutions such as evolution and the
scientific understanding of the sun being the center of the universe,
that lead human beings to think/believe/hold that there is no
meaning or purpose to human existence......it is the "modern"
experience that made our understanding of the meaning and purpose
of human existence being without any meaning or purpose...

is there any way to recover this quaint notion that human existence
does have meaning or purpose?

that is the question, isn't it?

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:07 pm

Peter, railing against what you call “IQ 45” almost every post shows that consent violation occurs for you and you don’t like it. You’re not alone. Nobody likes it.

Stop calling it a religion. It’s a definition.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:49 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Peter, railing against what you call “IQ 45” almost every post shows that consent violation occurs for you and you don’t like it. You’re not alone. Nobody likes it.

Stop calling it a religion. It’s a definition.


K: if you hold something regardless of proof that it doesn't exists, by faith,
it is a religion.. as does a Christian holds to their position of faith regardless
of the proof that there is no god... in fact, what matters to those who hold
such dubious values is the faith in which one holds the matter of faith.....

and I would contend that most people hold their matters of faith, in god,
in religion, America being the number one country, in the faith one holds in
capitalism, as being matters of indoctrinations as a child.....

most people hold their matters of faith, whatever ism or ideology that
they hold as their faith, as gotten in their childhood... within their
indoctrinations by their family or the state, or by their religion/church,
or the media....

look at IQ45.... he still holds to the values/indoctrinations of his childhood,
of the greatness of capitalism and the greatness of America even though
the evidence of either being great is nonexistent........

to be great.. one must work without pause to be great every single day....
greatness isn't created by past glories or by sitting on one's couch and saying so,
as any athlete will tell you, becoming great comes with a incredible work ethic
and ever ongoing work to be great...... the champions don't become champions
by talking how great they are, they must work and work and work some more
to achieve greatness.... what have we done, what have you done to make
America great?

what effort have you made to make America great?

not a single one of IQ45 attempts to make America great has succeeded....
because he or us hasn't make any effort to work out our greatness....

what effort has this country done to make itself great?

in fact, we have gone backwards and retreated from greatness by
IQ45 efforts... putting 2 conservative on the Supreme court for example,
isn't greatness, it has been a disaster for America.... we can only achieve
greatness as a country by moving forward, by reaching for greatness in
achieving events that are above us..... for example, want to reach greatness,
try to achieve the impossible... try to end poverty for everyone... to try that
is to try to reach greatness... for the GOP, all they want is to increase poverty
so that only the wealthy, the 1% has all the wealth and the rest of us, we are
impoverished and everyone is working minimum wage jobs with no benefits
and government assistance at all...... why, because that ensures the wealth of
America remains in the wealthy hands, not in our hands.....

we have a government of the wealthy, a plutocracy... government of the
wealthy, for the wealthy, by the wealthy....

so how would I find greatness... by reaching for what is impossible right now...
ending this government of the wealthy.. reaching for the stars....

and that means work, working every single day with every single tool I have....
and I can reach greatness because I have set a goal that is above me and I
must reach for.... I cannot find greatness if I sit on my couch and watch TV
or if I don't put any work into it..... to achieve greatness requires a incredible
amount of work and MAGA's types are people with no work ethic.....

Greatness is something you strive for, it isn't handed to you........

so how are you going to achieve greatness?

what religion are you fighting against?

to achieve our goal is to reach something worth reaching for and is above us.....

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:58 pm

IQ 45 is a moral nihilist which is why you hate him so much; you hate your reflection in the mirror.

That’s actually a good sign! It means you have a conscience somewhere!
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:14 pm

I could have written excellence/arete when I wrote
greatness..... what excellence have you tried for??

Standing up for such ism's as nationalism (white power) or standing up
for the nonsense purity of race or standing up for the greatness of America isn't
excellence...for these idea's, ism of nationalism for example, is a step down,
a major step down from excellence....exclusion is not greatness......

look at the historical figures we admire and make statues of, MLK and
Gandhi and Lincoln... every major historical figure we put on money and
every major historical figure worth studying is about inclusion, including
people into whatever struggle the historical figure is fighting about.....

Take MLK for example, he was all about inclusion.... every speech he made
was about the inclusion of people into civil rights... and he offered people a
chance to join him, regardless of who they were and what their accidental
traits were.....

now take someone who was about exclusion... take the KKK for example,
they are all about exclusion... excluding anyone who wasn't white or "Christian"....

I notice we don't build statues to those who exclude others......

I haven't seen a lot of statues to Hitler or to those who oppose people based upon
those accidental traits of birth, color, sex, sexual orientation, religion.......

there is a reason we don't celebrate those who exclude people.......

they don't advance the greatness of individuals or of the society or of
the culture.....exclusion denies the possibility of greatness.......

for greatness/excellence is about raising people to a higher level,
to become better then they were and exclusion denies that...
only inclusion allows people to become better then they were....

think about Gandhi... he didn't exclude... he was fighting for all India,
not just the Hindu or the Muslim people of India, but all people...
his message was of inclusion of all India including the untouchables...
that was his message.... inclusion is the answer to what troubles India....
because Inclusion is the answer to what troubles America.....
we are troubled because we try to exclude.....listen to the GOP
and we should exclude democrats and liberals and anyone who supports them
like minorities.. hence the war on voting rights in America... the suppression of
voting is an attack upon the inclusion of people to make the
exact same choice I can make....we exclude people from voting based on
race or being a minority.... that is wrong because the basic message of
America has been inclusion...we include everyone who comes to America

that has been the message of America for its entire history.....

come to America and be included... own land which you cannot do in your home
land and be able to vote which is a right excluded by a lot of countries...
come to America and become part of the great experiment that is democracy...

exclusion denies the very message that America sent out for over 300 years......

the very selling point of America is its political message of democracy....
so what happens if we no longer practice democracy?

we begin to exclude people... which is exactly what is happening today....

do we really hold to democracy today?

for if we practice exclusion, exclusion of people in regards to voting,
exclusion to people in regards to the execution of justice in America...
which means justice isn't dispense based upon one's wealth or titles or
status or job... justice to be justice, must be about equality... everyone is
treated the same regardless of their wealth or title or status or job....
and we can see that we exclude once again... we must distribute justice equally,
to everyone equally.. or we have practice exclusion......we exclude those from
justice because they aren't wealthy enough to afford justice......a judicial system
which operates with exclusions of people based on wealth or color or religion..
isn't a judicial system at all... for justice must be, must dispensed equally
and without regards to the accidental traits of existence......

this is an example of how we must engage with inclusion...
we must engage with inclusion because it helps create
greatness... inclusion helps create excellence......

America is great because we practiced as a country, inclusion...

did we always succeed, no... no, we didn't.....but the idea of
inclusion has always existed and was a symbol of excellence to be
achieved in America....

now does inclusion benefit me personally, probably not...
but I cannot always be about me individually....

we are social creatures that, at time, must take the collective
side in matters even if it hurts me personally.....

and the question of inclusion must be taken first even if it hurts
me personally, individually.....

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:22 pm

how do we communicate?

if I were to say, I have the day off and I will be mostly spending it
writing..... that is a story.. what philosophers call a narrative.....

the way human beings communicate is by stories....

I went to work yesterday at 9:45 and I was off at 4:45..
I worked 6 hours.....that is a story about my working day....

everything we communicate is in story form.....

philosophy is a story as is history.....

the story of World War two begins with the ending of
the First World War... We have a country, Germany, that wasn't
invaded but was defeated....this is a story.....

quite often we can use buzz words to make a story....

for example, I can say, I was an anarchist when I younger.....

we use the word "anarchist" as a shorthand for a story.....

an anarchist is someone who doesn't believe in a government.....

that is a story....and we have plenty of shorthand words we use to
tell a story... he was an Atheist, he was a Buddhist, she is a mother.....
atheist, Buddhist, mother.. are all words we shorthand as words
that tell a story....

philosophy tells a story..

epistemology: that tell the story of knowledge..it is a story of the
methods, validity and scope of knowledge..."what can we know?" is
one such story...

Political philosophy also tells us a story...the story of the relationship
between people and government and the story of the relationship
between government and other governments....

to succinctly tell the story of political philosophy: who makes the decisions
and who pays for those decisions.. who makes the decisions, if it is one person,
that can be a dictatorship or a monarchy, two or a few people can be an oligarchy,
or an autocracy or a plutocracy.... if who makes the decisions is all the people, then
that can be communism or perhaps a democracy......

my current political affiliation is democrat.. I have had quite a few political
affiliations during my life...... my story has change more then once, both
politically and philosophically....

the indoctrinations of my childhood, from parents and schools and church
and state and the media, were modified because I engaged in a
reevaluation of values during my teen and young adult years.. which is
quite a common time for one's story to change....

I no longer saw the world through the indoctrinations of my childhood...
I saw the world through the values and idea's discovered during my
reevaluations..........

we see our life in terms of our story and in terms of the story we want others to see.....

recall, we are social creatures, we exists within the story of others and they
exists within our story....

yesterday I went to work... where I worked with dozens of other people...
they are in my story of my day at work and I am in their story of their day at
work.....

so what about certain idea's like for instance, death.....

is death the end of the story or is death the beginning of the story?

depends on who you ask, now doesn't it?

and in regards to philosophy, we have different types of philosophical
stories.... for example, we have analytic philosophy... which is just another
story about how we view the world, which story we hold to is how we
titled our story.... I am an existentialist... I hold to that story and I don't
hold to the story of analytical philosophy...

that in itself tells you a great many things about me......

for me, every story revolved around people, both individually
and collectively.......

collectively, what is my relationship to other people?

how does my choice of "what am I to do?" influence
the story I tell?

am I going to work for my entire adult life and have nothing to show for it...

Is that going to be my story? "what am I to do" reflects the story I want
to tell myself and that I want to tell others?

if we lie, the lie is about the story we tell about ourselves and the stories
we tell others about who we are......

I want to seem to be brave and bold and so my stories about myself,
the stories I will be telling you, will be about me being brave and bold....
because that is the story I want you to believe about me... it doesn't matter
if it is true or not.. it is the story my ego wants you to believe about me.....

and that is the truth about our stories.. they quite often come about
because of our ego and the stories we want others to believe about us.....

quite often, the stories I tell about myself will involve me being the hero
in some fashion because I want to be the hero of my story... as most
of us want to be the hero of our own story.....

as I have gotten older, my stories have changed because I have changed....
my own stories have gotten closer to the truth of who I am and less
about who I want to appear as..... I have much less ego as I have grown
older and so my stories have become far more truthful because I just don't
care what you think about me... I can be honest because I don't give a shit
what you think about me....aging has a way of doing that to one.....

so the story you tell? is that story about you wanting to be a hero?
is that story about your brilliance really about me or is it about you
wanting to shine on your ego?

as I have gotten older, I am no longer anywhere near as smart as
I was when I was younger because my ego doesn't need to be stroked
as it once did.....

so, what is your story?

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:41 pm

the interesting thing about our telling stories is that we can
have the exact same information and wind up telling vastly
different stories..... a British historian might tell the story of
the "battle of Britain 1940" in a different manner then
an American historian using the exact same facts.....

we have the right to our own story even if, even if it doesn't mesh
with anyone else's story....the stories I tell of my childhood about
me and my family is quite different then the stories that my family,
my brother and sisters and mother tell about the exact same event.....

so when people write history books, they are telling a story from some
given position the writer has.... the whole point of writing history is
to remove or to at least limit the fictional nature of the history to match
some viewpoint.... to make history independent of personal stories and to
to tell stories that are "objective" ... stories without any bias or prejudice
for or against the events, participants or leaders of that story.....

but it is known and recognized that no matter how hard we try,
we tell stories about people, including us.. especially us, events,
participants and the leadership of any given story with a great deal of
bias and favoritism of some sort........

the point of history, philosophy, science, economics, social studies,
psychology to create stories of people and events and participants
and the leadership without any bias or prejudice or bigotry.....

the best way to understand a story, either fiction or nonfiction, is
to spot the bias and prejudice and bigotry the writer has... is he
arguing for something or against something and why?

so the questions I have been asking, who are we? "what does it mean
to be human?" are questions that have a story... "what does it mean to
be human" is a story about us as human beings.....

and what about our possibilities? what about what is possible for us
as human beings? that is our story that talks about what is possible for
us as human beings.....

you want to be a philosopher? then tell us a story.....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:29 pm

ok, we have philosophy as being a story of existence......

but does philosophy answer the singular question of our "modern" times,
that of meaning/purpose of existence... for that is what we have lost.....

now some might argue that we have never had a meaning or purpose to
existence, but look at the stories of human beings, both in history
and in fiction.....look at the writings of those like Shakespeare for example,
Hamlet...... what does Hamlet tell us about meaning or purpose?

Hamlet is told by his father's ghost to avenge him by killing
Claudius..... is that really the goal/purpose of an individual?

does killing fit into increasing the energy of a system like
the court system of Denmark or does it decrease the energy system
within a system like Denmark?

within any system, be it political or economic or social,
we cannot have this type of revenge killing going on because
it does disrupt the political and/or economic/social system of
a city/state... let us say, we transport the story of Hamlet into
our modern world of say, Canada....we have Ottawa instead of
Elsinore.....but the story itself remains.... we can see the damage
a private feud which is pushed by revenge, would cause to a country....

and yet, we have a private request from Hamlet's father to revenge him....

we have a conflict between the individual need of revenge and the social/society
need for stability......

which need takes priority?

the modern state has determined that individuals must shape their individual
needs for the greater good.........

we must bow down to the needs of society over our own needs......

and if we fail to do this? remember the greatest crime in modern life,
insubordination.... this is the crime which got Adam and Eve thrown out
of Eden and is the greatest crime in the bible.....and the greatest crime
today... in my well protected union job, I can only be fired for two things,
for stealing and yep, insubordination.....

so if we understand the story of Hamlet, he is conflicted to do what his
father has told him to do.. avenge him.....so what is the "greater good" in
Hamlet's eyes? Revenge or keeping the society at peace, which is the
continuation of energy into the system.....

and how does this fit into my question of meaning and purpose?

if Hamlet can decide upon what is the meaning or purpose of
existence, he can then make a decision about whither or not
to kill his step-father.....

finding a goal or meaning to existence can answer Hamlet's question about
whither he should avenge his father......

what is the goal or meaning of Hamlet's life? what is his purpose?

and look at all the chaos and destruction Hamlet causes when he acts...
his entire family is wiped out and the very thing he was trying to prevent,
which is the takeover of Denmark by the son of the dead king of Norway,
Prince Fortinbras....Hamlet actions allowed his country to be taken over
by a foreign power...... does this seem like a satisfactory result of his actions?

so once again, we see how private actions do really affect the overall
actions of our society/state.......we have an individual actions and we
have collective actions and quite often the two clash into each other area's.....

so what was Hamlet's meaning or purpose?

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:17 pm

listen closely....

do you hear the story of "modern" philosophy?

what is it telling us about what it means to be human?

what is "modern" philosophy telling us about what is our
meaning/purpose in existence?

what does Husserl's story tell us about our meaning or purpose?

what does Sartre tell us about our meaning or purpose?

what story does Heidegger tell us about who we are?

those who have studied "modern" philosophy, the
of the ism's and ideologies of "modern" philosophy...such as structuralism or
post-Modernism or within phenomenology or analytic philosophy.. what has
been noted as being the meaning or purpose of existence?

I would suggest that our "modern" philosophies have abandon any search
for meaning or purpose of existence.......

we need/want philosophy to return to the basics of philosophy..
which is to return to the meaning or purpose of existence.....

what does existing mean? I exist, what does this mean to me?

what is the point of existence?

does existence have an individual meaning or does it have a collective
meaning/purpose or, or does existence have both an individual and a
collective purpose/meaning?

do I exist to achieve my individual purpose/meaning like Hamlet
when I engage in some private act of revenge?

or do I achieve meaning/purpose when I engage in some
collective action with my fellow human beings?

any discussion of my private actions must also engage with a
discussion of any collective meaning or purpose....

what is the story of my existence?

and do I decide it or does society decide it for me?

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:58 pm

Nietzsche once wrote that, he wanted to be an "autonomous, rational
human being"....

and at first read, it makes sense... however once you think about it,
then it is not so obvious....

for example, the word "Autonomous" not subject to outside control, independent,
acting according to one's moral duty rather than one's desires.....

but as we have noted before, morality isn't about one person..
it is a collective take on how everyone is to act in accordance
to the rules.....you cannot have a single person morality.....

morality by its very definition, is two or more people engaging
in how we should act and interact with people within our society....

but to be autonomous, means you are engaging in your own rules of
morality.... so to be autonomous is not to engage in morality because
autonomous means one person and morality means more then one person.....

how does a person be autonomous and still be able to engage in
morality? if we are engaging in morality, then we are engaged with
two or more people about how we are to act with each other......

and the word autonomous is about the one person being independent,
holding to your own values and rules....

to hold to both concepts equally and with conviction, means
that you are in conflict with the state when you act
autonomously.....

because seriously, how often will my autonomous self be in harmony and unanimity
with the goals and needs of the state where the concept of morality holds
for two or more people......

the fact is, that my autonomous self will be in conflict with the society
morality.....

how do we resolve this conflict between being autonomous
and being moral within a society?

if you adjust your autonomous self to be in sync with society
then you are no longer being independent and autonomous....

and one certainly cannot expect society to adjust itself or
sync itself to one human being, it cannot make morality
to fit one specific individual....

morality seems to be, to me at least, to be an all or nothing
proposition.....you cannot choose which moral precepts
you will abide by and which one's you will ignore....

I will abide all the rules of society and be a moral person,
except the rule about killing people.. if I am to be an
autonomous person, I must be able to kill people....

you can see the conflict.....

let us expand this concept of being autonomous to, well everyone.....
everyone is an autonomous being who act upon their own idea's
and understanding of what it means to be human......
we are free and independent to act upon our own values
as we see fit....

now everyone is in an completely autonomous society, which is the ideal society
of the anarchist, BTW........well that makes no sense, a completely
autonomous society.... you can have one, autonomous or you can have the
other, society, but how do you connect the two?

so, is the goal of everyone being autonomous really the best goal we could
try to achieve, given that we would no longer have any type of collective
morality in doing so?

and then we have our second word, after autonomous, rational......

given the fact that much of human understanding of the world comes from
the emotional, feeling side of existence.... is being rational, the best chance
we have of understanding the universe given we have such things as instincts
which is the way we override reason and rationality...

much of human existence is engage in both instincts and emotions/feelings.....

David Hume for example once wrote:

"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of passions,
and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and
obey them"

in other words, Hume had rationality and reason to serve
instincts and emotions and feelings and passions...

I for one, don't believe that is the true and proper role of rationality
and reason...to be slaves of, servants to instincts, emotions, feelings
and passions....

so, the problem still exists, we can attempt to be autonomous
and be outside of morality which can only exists in two or more people......

how do we resolve this conflict between being autonomous
and being moral?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:22 pm

this conflict between being an "autonomous" person, acting
independently or having the freedom to do so
and the morality of the state... Morality is the
rules of conduct between two or more people....

I cannot go around hitting people for example, that
is in violation of the rules/laws/ morality of the society/state....

but my own private personal rules, my autonomous self,
my own personal conduct can be, I am able to hit anyone who displeases me......

and to be autonomous, I must hold to my own personal rules of conduct....
to be independent....

there must be some line in the sand where I can be autonomous to
a point, then I must engage in morality......one's engagement with
my own conduct with myself, for that is all being autonomous can really
mean, and my engagement with, my conduct with two or more people.....

Morality is a collective agreement to act in an specific manner while
engaging in specific behavior....

I have already touched upon the fact that there is a difference between
morality and the law.... the law, at one time, held that slavery was
legal and that women were the property of men... but my own independent,
autonomous self, denied those laws of slavery and men owning women....

we can have separate morality and laws....the enactment of laws doesn't
make those laws "moral"...because morality is concerned with the principles,
the distinction between right and wrong.. whereas the law isn't concerned
with right and wrong, as such....the law is about maintaining order within
a society/state... not about right or wrong.. and this is the clear difference
between morality and the laws......the state frankly doesn't give a shit
about right or wrong... it only cares about keeping the peace and maintaining
order within the state.....

so you have one. being autonomous... two. being moral
and three. the laws....

so we have three different possibilities..... which one is the "right"
one?

do we pursue being autonomous? or do we pursue being moral?
or do we pursue the law? is there a fourth possibility?

is there something outside of, or past those three,
being autonomous, morality or the law?

do we pursue the idea of right and wrong, given the fact
that to the law, right or wrong is irrelevant.. do we
pursue being autonomous, even though that means we
are outside of, separate from morality which is the
rules of conduct between two or more people?

or do we engage with the law? which denies both morality
and being autonomous.....

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:38 pm

as I have noted before, we, in our "modern" times,
don't seem to have any sort of meaning or purpose or goal to
our lives, to our existence.. and this is what it means to be
a "modern" person....the concept of meaning or purpose tends to
have a "one size fits all" approach and that cannot work......

but why Kropotkin?

for example, the idea that "everyone" purpose/meaning in our existence,
is about our death and the idea that meaning and purpose is found within
the Christian idea of contemplating god in heaven forever......

I for one, think that is the very concept of hell... contemplating god
for ever? Yikes.... I would rather spend eternity in Hell where
at least we can spice up our pain with a little diversity....

but as a concept of "one size fits all" spending it in heaven,
contemplating god forever isn't really, "one size fits all"

for example, the Buddhist think that our meaning/purpose is to
end the cycle of birth and rebirth... to end the reincarnation of
human beings... which has nothing whatsoever to do with
the contemplation of god forever in heaven....

but the Buddhist idea of escaping the cycle of rebirth and reincarnation,
is still just a "one size fits all" concept....

in fact, most visions of the meaning and purpose of existence is just
variations of the "one size fits all" concept of existence.....

we exists to ......and no other choice is possible....

my meaning and purpose is, and ought to be, different then yours.....

I don't see how we can accept any one possible vision of
the meaning and purpose of human existence......because
no matter what vision you put forward as the "one size fits all"
understanding of what is our meaning/purpose as human beings,
will simple not get people to agree with you.....

for some, the point of, the meaning of existence is to become our
possibilities and for some it is to become who you are and for some,
the meaning/purpose of existence is to explore.. both yourself and
the world surrounding you.....

there is no one vision of the meaning and purpose of human existence
that will get people to agree with...

"one size fits all" doesn't work in relationship with the meaning
and purpose of human existence....

in fact, I would suggest that if you ask 100 people, what is the
meaning and purpose of human existence, you might get 125 answers.....

how can we turn those 125 answers into a "one size fits all" understanding of
the meaning/purpose of existence?

so, what is the "solution" to this problem of what is "the meaning/purpose of
human existence?"

do we have individual answers to the question or do we have any type of
a collective answer to the question, "what is the meaning/purpose/goal of
human existence?"

so, what is the point of, the meaning of, the purpose of, the goal of
human existence?

if you tell me, then we will both know.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:44 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:as I have noted before, we, in our "modern" times,
don't seem to have any sort of meaning or purpose or goal to
our lives, to our existence.. and this is what it means to be
a "modern" person....the concept of meaning or purpose tends to
have a "one size fits all" approach and that cannot work......

but why Kropotkin?

for example, the idea that "everyone" purpose/meaning in our existence,
is about our death and the idea that meaning and purpose is found within
the Christian idea of contemplating god in heaven forever......

I for one, think that is the very concept of hell... contemplating god
for ever? Yikes.... I would rather spend eternity in Hell where
at least we can spice up our pain with a little diversity....

but as a concept of "one size fits all" spending it in heaven,
contemplating god forever isn't really, "one size fits all"

for example, the Buddhist think that our meaning/purpose is to
end the cycle of birth and rebirth... to end the reincarnation of
human beings... which has nothing whatsoever to do with
the contemplation of god forever in heaven....

but the Buddhist idea of escaping the cycle of rebirth and reincarnation,
is still just a "one size fits all" concept....

in fact, most visions of the meaning and purpose of existence is just
variations of the "one size fits all" concept of existence.....

we exists to ......and no other choice is possible....

my meaning and purpose is, and ought to be, different then yours.....

I don't see how we can accept any one possible vision of
the meaning and purpose of human existence......because
no matter what vision you put forward as the "one size fits all"
understanding of what is our meaning/purpose as human beings,
will simple not get people to agree with you.....

for some, the point of, the meaning of existence is to become our
possibilities and for some it is to become who you are and for some,
the meaning/purpose of existence is to explore.. both yourself and
the world surrounding you.....

there is no one vision of the meaning and purpose of human existence
that will get people to agree with...

"one size fits all" doesn't work in relationship with the meaning
and purpose of human existence....

in fact, I would suggest that if you ask 100 people, what is the
meaning and purpose of human existence, you might get 125 answers.....

how can we turn those 125 answers into a "one size fits all" understanding of
the meaning/purpose of existence?

so, what is the "solution" to this problem of what is "the meaning/purpose of
human existence?"

do we have individual answers to the question or do we have any type of
a collective answer to the question, "what is the meaning/purpose/goal of
human existence?"

so, what is the point of, the meaning of, the purpose of, the goal of
human existence?

if you tell me, then we will both know.....

Kropotkin



And if I don't or can't tell You, then it is uncertain which one of us knows, or even if any one of us does?
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:04 pm

How many things do we "moderns" seek?

let us count them.......

we seek fame, money, titles, knowledge (if it is knowledge that leads to
fame or money or titles) and we seek the material goods... cars, houses,
large screen TV's, couches, exercise equipment.. crap that fills the house.....

but I am not a good American.. I don't seek these fluff things that simply
waste my time and energy... I seek something else.....

Now some might seek less material things.. they might seek god or
salvation or simply seek a good time.... the highlight of their day is to
party with all the essentials of a party, music, booze, drugs, dancing.....

the word philosophy means "love of wisdom" and philosopher means
"lover of wisdom".....

now most people who study philosophy are not studying wisdom..
they are studying knowledge.. what did Kant think of Plato's
theory of the state as shown by Kant's understanding of Plato's republic......

that is seeking knowledge...what did some philosopher think of X, Y and Z....

What was Nietzsche idea of the state?

What did Hume think about the self?

research like this isn't seeking wisdom, it is seeking knowledge about
a specific philosopher....

when one is researching knowledge like this, it isn't doing philosophy.....
because philosophy is the seeking/loving wisdom.....

and what is the difference between wisdom and knowledge?

Wisdom involves the act of perspective and the ability to make sound
judgments about a subject whereas knowledge is simply knowing..
Anyone can become knowledgeable about a subject by reading,
research and memorizing facts....

wisdom: the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good
judgment; the quality of being wise...

the soundness of an action or decision with regards to the application
of experience, knowledge and good judgment.....

the act of wisdom seems to be involved in the application of good judgement
by using such factors as experience and knowledge........

I have gained wisdom over the years by experience.. I now know better then to
get in between a couple who are fighting... I have learned from the past....

I have learned that in regards to my wife, that I couldn't have pick
anyone else who matches me better... I don't even look... to me,
I have gained the wisdom to know that I can't do any better in regards
to a spouse....I don't just have knowledge, I have wisdom....

so most of you, because you are reading and writing in a philosophy
website, are seeking knowledge..... but are you seeking wisdom?

and that is what is lost today...... we seek all kinds of things, but I believe
that we are seeking the wrong things... we seek money and power and sex
and new cars and knowledge that will make us money, power, sex and new cars.....

I actively run away from money and fame and power...... none of these
things will make me wise and as for knowledge? I have plenty of knowledge,
but frankly most of it won't do me a bit of good... I have the knowledge that
the earth is 93 million miles from the sun... that and a couple of bucks will buy
me a coffee....

so why are you studying philosophy? is it to gain knowledge about how
certain philosophers felt about love? or what they might have thought about
the meaning of life? or perhaps what they might think about god?

that is the search for knowledge....

what are you doing to search for wisdom?

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:14 pm

let us take this example..... what is the point of seeking ART?

is it to gain the experience... for example, a few years ago, I was
in Paris and I was able to see the Mona Lisa... very small picture, by the way,

so I can say, I saw the Mona Lisa.. and now what?

what did I gain by actually seeing the Mona Lisa in person?

Just another item off the bucket list?

Like saying, I skydived a few years ago.. as a another bucket item list....

just to gain some experiences that I can later brag about... I was in Paris...

but did I gain anything outside of bragging rights when I saw Paris?

did I learn something while I was there?

did I gain any "wisdom"?

what is the point of going to Paris if I don't gain any wisdom?

what is your experience versus your wisdom?

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:16 pm

so let us continue to explore this.........

Is the idea of BLM... is that wisdom or, or is that knowledge?

Black lives matter and they do, but is that knowledge or is that
wisdom gained from experience?

Now for me, I don't separate out black lives from other lives.....

all lives matter to me... but that begs the question,
why is it that all life matter?

because I have gained the experience to know that life, all life
is something of value.....

but we haven't grown enough in experience, to know that we human beings,
we are part of life... that all life has the same value as human life.......

it is the growth of human beings to go from animal to animal/human and then
if we gain in wisdom, we will go to becoming human, fully human....

and in that growth, we have gone from being concerned with only our
tribe/family to the larger tribe to the city to the city/state to a nation....

with each new understanding we include, include more people...

we now include those that our ancient tribe mentality wouldn't have
accepted, people who don't look like us, people who pray to a different god,
people who, by the accidents of birth, have a different color then us
and love different types of people then we do, and people who hope for
different things then we do.....

in the beginning, we only valued and respected those who were directly
related to us... today, we can value those who look, pray, feel and love
differently then we do.....

that is the progression of the human experience.....

from the one, to the few, to many to all......

I see all human life as being equal.. regardless of who you are, who
you pray to, who you love and what your accidental traits are.....

experience has taught me that we have the same needs, wants
and desires because we are life, because we are human beings.....

we all need food, water, shelter, education, health care, warmth,
and love.....those are basic human biological necessities.....
and every single human has those requirements and that is the first,
the first step to wisdom... the second step is to grant animals the
exact same rights of food, water, shelter, warmth and love as we grant
to human beings.... we are equal.....

and then we can grant to all life.... ALL LIFE the exact same
rights as we grant human beings and animals.....

the path of human existence is to include... from the one, me, to
the few, my family, the many... my tribe and my city, to all....
my country and then to the real all, which is all human beings regardless
of their accidental traits of birth.....

and then we include all living things...... from one to few to many to all.....

the path of inclusion is the path to real wisdom... where we see life
as being the same....... regardless of what it looks like.....

are you searching for knowledge or are you searching for wisdom?

that answer tells you everything you need to know.......

for the path of knowledge, anyone can travel this path....

the earth is 93 million miles away from the sun.....
the declaration of independence was signed on July 4th, 1776....
the human body deprived of water or food or air... will die......

these are facts, knowledge which anyone can read about or know.....

but what is wisdom?

wisdom is knowing from experience and good judgement, that all life,
all life is equal.....and deserves as it right, food, water, shelter,
warmth, education and love.......

that is the basic right of all existence....

no matter what your existence looks like, no matter what it might feel like,
you, as life, deserves food, water, shelter, warmth, education and love.....

and that there is no exclusion to this matter of wisdom......

all life has value.......

so, what is your wisdom?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:46 pm

let us think about what "truths" we hold to be "self-evident"......

that the "black man is inferior" to the white man.....

that "the Jews control the world"

that "women should be the property of men"......

that there are people out there who believe these things is true.....

is it from experience or from knowledge that they learn these
"truths"?

neither... they learn these things from their indoctrinations from childhood.......

they haven't the wisdom to understand the growth of the human experience....

from one to a few to many to all.....

how do we get from such nonsense as "black men are inferior to white men"
to the wisdom that all men are created equal?

we gain wisdom from experience and from the use of good judgement....

it is good judgment that "all men are created equal".....

but Kropotkin, isn't that bias and superstition?

no, because all human beings, all human beings have the same needs,
desires, wants and urges.....

we have the exact same need for food, water, shelter, education, health care
and these needs are what make us equal... it isn't about talent or alleged
superiority of one group or another that makes us unequal.... it is about
having needs and wants that are equal....that makes us equal......

I might be smarter then you, but that doesn't make me superior to you...

and you might have math skills that I don't have but that doesn't make you
superior to me......

it is in our needs and wants and desires that make us equal....

we see alleged superiority in matters that doesn't give us superiority....

for example, many see wealth as making one superior to another.....

but wealth isn't what makes one superior to another.....

for wealth can be gained by any number of ways... none of which implies
superiority....... I might become wealthy from winning the lottery...
does that imply superiority? I don't see how.....

I might be white and you might be black.... I don't see how this
accidental trait of birth might make you or me, superior or inferior....

but I can see how we both need food and water and shelter and warmth
and love and health care and education... I can see how that makes us
equal....not superior or inferior, but equal......

"all human beings are created equal".....

I hold this truth to be self-evident because we
have the same needs and desires and urges and wants
as every other person has......

we are equal.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8066
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:00 am

so, how do we find meaning, purpose of life chasing
the knowledge found in Kant's theory of the Analytic-synthetic
judgement?

like how do we find wisdom in the knowledge that
the earth is 93 million miles from the Sun?

if we are really philosophers, then we should be engaged
with the pursuit of wisdom and not the pursuit of knowledge?

when I ask, what is the meaning, purpose of life? am I asking
about knowledge or am I asking about wisdom?

am I a philosopher, a lover of wisdom,
or am I a philosopher, a lover of knowledge?

by tying my shoes, I show knowledge...
by putting on my pants, I show knowledge...
by turning on the TV set, I show knowledge.....

but have I shown any wisdom?

among the philosophers, who has shown us how to live a life
worth living?

most philosophers have been men who have lied and cheat
and one pushed a women down a flight of stairs injuring her....

Which modern philosopher has been a pillar of the community?
you mean outside of Spinoza? None.....

philosophers have all kinds of information about the knowledge of
other philosophers, but do philosophers have the wisdom enough
for us to be able to follow their lives? In other words, do they live
lives that we should emulate?

No, for the most part, no.....outside of Spinoza.. most philosophers
were just men who didn't take their philosophy out into the real world...
it was all theoretical, not practical.........

even Nietzsche didn't live his philosophy out in the real world.....

so, if we were to find the meaning/purpose of life, could we actually
practice it out in the real world? or is it just more theoretical writings?

what is the point of chasing wisdom if we don't practice it out in
the real world? I can see the use of knowledge, for with knowledge
we can build bigger and better bombs for us to use on others...... but do
we have the wisdom not to? what is the practical application of
our actions in the world? and why don't we use wisdom to
see the practical applications of our actions in the world?

we always seem to use standards of, was it successful?
or was it effective? but what about the standard of,
what actions should we take, regardless of how effective they
were or how successful they were? just because we can do something,
doesn't mean we should do something... I hope we have the wisdom
to see that one day........

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8066
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:07 pm

on a reading note, I finished "Beyond Good and evil" yesterday
and I am going to start Nietzsche's "on the Genealogy of Morals"
today.....I am in the home stretch of reading all of Nietzsche's work....

so let us understand the concept of meaning and purpose in terms
of what they actually mean and the idea of "one size fits all"....

we have various religions that hold to certain idea's.....

we have the Buddhist for example who believe that life is suffering
and we must end the cycle of suffering by the process of becoming
enlightened.....

Life for a Buddhist is one of ever ongoing cycles of birth, suffering and death...

how do we end this cycle of rebirth and suffering?

the problem with the Buddhist ideology is this notion of life being
one of suffering....I don't see life as being full of suffering......

I see the "suffering" of our becoming, becoming old, having disease
and finally dying as being part of the gig of being human....

suffering sucks, but it isn't the decisive driver of life the Buddhists make
it out to be.....

I see suffering as being just another aspect of life, like the stages of life
that all of us go through, puberty, menopause, growing older and finally the
last stage of our life which is death...

is death suffering? no, death is just another step along the way....
if you are born, you are going to die and we should be ok with that....

but we are not because we have such religions as the Christian religion which
offers us a bribe to believe, if you believe, you shall live forever.......

as if living forever is some sort of paradise, no...... I would rather die
a thousand deaths before I could live forever...

but religions "one size fits all" mentality won't allow any other choice
beside the choice of the Christian nightmare of living forever....

and see the difference between the Buddhist thinking about
living forever and the Christian thinking about eternity.....

life is something to escape from the Buddhist thinking, and in the
Christian thinking the goal is to live forever in heaven....

two different religions, two different approaches to life....
and who is right?

the "one size fits all" mentality of religions is a major problem for
religions.... life isn't something we try to escape from.....

it is what we make of it.... for some, some, life is beauty and love
and peace and all the other positive aspects of life.....

and for some, some, life is anger and hate and ugliness and roughness.....
the negative aspects of life..... but once again, we see two distinct
different aspects or possibilities of life.....

is life full of beauty and love and peace? yes and is life full of anger
and hatred and ugliness? yes.......

but which possibility am I going to work for?

I have made my answer clear........

so, in a "one size fits all" understanding of the universe.....
we can see the differences between beliefs and we can see
how one belief can lead one toward beauty and love and peace
another belief leads toward hate, anger and ugliness.....

but a "one size all fitting universe" doesn't allow for choice
and possibilities.....

we have but one choice in a "one size fits all" universe and what if that
choice isn't your choice?

I don't believe in a heaven where we stand around and wonder at the
magnificence of god... forever.... what a nightmare......

a "one size fits all" heaven certainly doesn't work for me, but
what other choice am I giving by Christianity?

so, I am not a Christian because we have but one choice in
our death... believe or face eternity in hell... that is not
a choice in my mind.....

and for the Buddhist's, I don't think living our lives is suffering....
because we do have such things as beauty and love and peace
and hope to keep us company while we live out our lives......

a "one size fits all life" isn't worth holding to because it negates
our possibilities as human beings...... we are simple put,
beings full of possibilities and the point of life is to explore
and seek out those possibilities.....a "one size fits all" universe
misses the many possibilities that await a human being if we only
looked.....

work, that is not about making money to put food on the table.....

no, work is to explore our possibilities... to see what we are capable of....

this idea that work, working all our lives is an "one size fits all" endeavor
to simply put food on our table..... misses the point about seeking
and finding our possibilities.......

to find my possibilities isn't predicated upon me working my whole life......

work simply exists to help me find and explore my possibilities........

a "one size fits all" understanding of the world, misses the enormous
possibilities that exists for us as human beings....

"what am I to do" as a Kantian proposition isn't about what job should I hold, but
"what am I to do" is about seeking the possibilities that exists within me and
discovering those possibilities within some actions such as work or perhaps
continue to seek our possibilities outside of the business environment....

to say, life is about going to heaven and contemplating the wonders of god
for eternity is to entirely miss the vastness of the human possibilities that exists.....

the point of existence isn't, isn't about living life via "one size fits all" mentality
of understanding.....

the point of existence is to seek and explore the possibilities of human existence.....

what is possible for me as a human being?

I can be a musician or a leader or a researcher or a teacher or
a worker or philosopher or a......... the point of existence
is to seek out what is possible for us......

"what am I to do"? isn't about me becoming a worker or a producer,
but about what it means to be human in seeking out our possibilities
that exists as human beings....

the meaning and purpose of the universe isn't to find a job for which we
work at for 40 years... no, the point of existence is to find a job that
helps us explore what it means to be human, for us......

the kind of human being's we are is far more important then finding
out what sort of job we might have....

part of the human exploration of the possibilities is to explore
our true nature of being human....

if I were to explore the beauty of the universe, that would be
of greater value to both me and the human race, and far more valuable
then any addition to the GDP that I might contribute to....

we are so limited in vision and scope of what is possible that we forget that
the point of existence isn't to contribute to the GDP, and in fact contributing
to the GDP might lead human beings to avoid seeking the possibilities
that exists for all, all human beings....

our one track mind in believing in "one size fits all" is part, part of the
problem we face in our "modern" times....if we expand our vision to
exclude the "one size fits all" understanding of what it means to be human
and to understand what is the meaning and purpose of human existence is really
an engagement with the true understanding of what it means to be human...

which is to seek out and explore our possibilities as human beings.....

as human beings, are we about love and peace and anger and hate
and charity and hope and all those other values which we human beings
have inside of us? yes, we are all of these and more..... but we cannot know
what our possibilities are until we seek them out, until we explore all, ALL,
our possible values as human beings...

the possibilities of values includes such values as adventure and authenticity
and balance and compassion and community and curiosity and fairness
and justice and faith and fun and kindness and learning and poise and respect
and trustworthiness and wisdom, to name a few values which we should
be seeking and exploring instead of wasting our lives boosting the
GDP......

it is those values listed above that give our lives meaning, not work,
not putting our nose to the grindstone, not slaving away for 40 years to
end up with nothing of value in our lives....

"what am I to do?" is about seeking the possibilities of existence that is the
the point, the real point, of existence for me....our existence isn't about
this false and phony idea of "one size fits all" but our existence is about
discovering the values that give my life its point, meaning,
purpose.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8066
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

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