a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:16 am

so in my last post, I posited a thought that
much of life is the drama between the conflict that
occurs between people, people and groups, individuals
and society/state... and these conflicts occur because of the
conflicting needs, desires, wants, motivations, agenda's, drivers,
between individuals and individuals and groups/state/society/cultures....

so perhaps, perhaps we can really see that life and its
meaning can be thought of as conflict resolution....

how do we resolve our various conflicts we have both individually
and collectively?

how would I go about solving a conflict with the state about
how my needs conflict with the needs, desires, agenda, and motivations
of the state?

perhaps the various ism's and ideologies we have are simply
suggestions to conflict resolutions?

how do we solve the conflict between our need for goods and
companies need for money?

and then our desire to feed ourselves, which is one of the bottom
line basics of being human with society needs and desires and
agenda's?

perhaps we can reduce life to being simply a means/ways
to create conflict resolution between the various players
in life?

so finding meaning isn't just about finding a meaning/purpose
but also about finding a means to resolve our daily conflicts we
have both individually and collectively?

just a thought...

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:45 am

think of the million years spent going from animal to being
animal/human...…

think of the small tribes and family groups that made up human
existence for over a million years.... think of that small tribe
of say, 40 or 50 people...….

the driving force of that small tribe would be to achieve
the basics which is to feed, clothe, house, educate,
the tribe.... seeing how the entire tribe was dedicated toward
one goal, that there would be less conflict to deal with...…
conflict within a small number of people can easily destroy
or damage that small number of people....

you have to, at all cost, avoid conflicts within a small group or tribe.....

tribes live and die with the cooperation of every tribe member...
a few members who don't give their full cooperation can
destroy or end a tribe.....

so some possible answers to maintaining tribal unity
is through religion, tribal pride, uh...creating stability
through such institutions as marriage and the family structure...…
and such rules as we now know as the 10 commandments...
thou shall not...…….

that is one such way to help maintain control and stability within
the tribe...…

and we can count morality/ethics as another attempt to
maintain and hold stability...…

if we have set of rules by which to avoid conflicts, we
can improve our chances of survival... individually and
collectively...…

so think of morality/ethics not as some grand command from
god, but as a means to reduce and lower possible conflicts between
individuals and individuals and from individuals and the community.....

conflict resolution is really the point of morality and ethics.....

if everyone is following the same rules, then you are probably
going to have less conflicts.. probably.....

but as with anything, nothing is guaranteed.....
even following the rules, thou shall not covet thy
neighbor's wife, will prevent conflict between people.....

and so to help reduce conflicts we come up with some
idea's that help with conflict resolution....

we come up with punishment.....

you obey the rules or we punish you...…

to help reduce conflict which can destroy tribes.....

so to think about it, we have morality/ethics which
are as old as humanity and serve the same purpose...

to hold down the amount of conflict within a society....

but as we have progressed from tribes of small number of people
to huge number of individuals.. the complexity of the human
situation has increased..... has our conflict resolution
also increased in complexity to match our greater numbers?

today we have prisons and jails and police and judges
and laws, to maintain society... to reduce the amount
of conflicts within society...….

and this increase in complexity must be reflected within
our rules and laws that we engage in.....

and that is the basic fact of nature... it goes from simple to complex...
we humans are far more complex then animals and animals are far
more complex then grass and grass is far more complex the single cell
creatures.....and if you reverse that course, you get the basis and structure
of evolution....going from simple to complex...….

but grass doesn't need rules or laws because there is no conflict
between sticks of grass and we don't need conflict resolution
between tree's and we don't need conflict resolution between
ants of the same family...…

but animals, they do conflict.... as they need to achieve their
basic needs of food and water... lions and deer have been in
a long struggle, a long conflict between lions and deer....
in which the only solution is the extinction of one or the other...….

how do we engage in conflict resolution between lions and deer?

you can't.....

but we humans, we are more complicated then lions and more
complicated then deer's………

we are social creatures that must exist with each other,
so conflict resolution becomes priority between human
and other humans and their tribe/city/state/ country.....

so as an understanding of the meaning and purpose of
human beings, we must include conflict resolution....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:57 am

so we can think about the state/society as a
means/method of conflict resolution.....

how do we reduce or eliminate conflict between
individuals and other individual and between
the state/society and particular individuals?

so chaos and anarchy isn't about conflict resolution....
it is about playing out that conflict publicly.....

the court system and the laws are about reducing
and limiting the conflicts.....

democracy is conflict resolution that is spread across
the entire society....

within a dictatorship, conflicts are resolved by one person...

and it doesn't matter if that conflict isn't resolved to anyone
satisfaction..... and that leads to further conflicts.....

unresolved conflicts leads to further conflicts.....

history is full of unresolved conflicts which lead to
a great deal of chaos and conflict later...…

a war between two neighboring states is often
the result of some unresolved conflict of the past.....

the issue was not taken care of and it lingered and festered
and then became something that the normal rules and laws
can't deal or handle with.....

I suspect that both World War one and World War two
were both because of unresolved issues that lingered
and festered and then went out of control...…

resolving conflicts is really one of the major priorities
of any state/society/culture...….

how do we make that fact clear and understandable?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:12 pm

we understand how conflict resolution is a key
factor in human existence... we do conflict resolution
every single day of our life.....husband and wife,
brothers and sister, parent and child, neighbor to neighbor,
in the grocery store....

one could say one of the constants of human existence
is conflicts...

so, let us say we take conflict resolution as a
major aspect of human existence... now what?

we resolve conflicts and then what?

one of the things, among many, is the conflict in
which future we should engage with?

do we engage in the positive liberal future or the
negative conservative future?

the future is made by every single decision we make today...…

If I made the decision to quit my job, that will immediately
impact what future I have..... I decide to become a monk,
that will impact my future...

if we, as a nation, choose to spend our money, time, effort on
the military instead of domestic issues, that decision impacts
our collective future....

so what kind of future do you want to see?

what should we do to invest in our future?

you make your choice as to what kind of future you want,
and I make my choice and by conflict resolution, we
find some middle ground and we agree to a collective
future...

the problem that exists today is there is no vision or
idea of what kind of future we should engage in...…

we are still fighting the civil war.... and how can we as a people
advance to some future if we are still fighting some long ago war.....

the weapons of the future isn't the bomb or the gun, but
the future is about technology and communication
and connection...…

the fact is we cannot afford to have a war or a conflict today...…

as we see from the world wide pandemic, our society is paper thin
in its connections and supply lines and infrastructure

the ties that bind human beings are thin...
and we cannot allow that to happen....

we must tie, commit ourselves to a unified
and collective future... for that is the only way
our future happens...… we connect/unite collectively
or we exists individually....

and we know, know from evolution, that we are social creatures...

we can only exists together, in unison, working together...…

I cannot feed myself individually and I cannot house or
clothe or meet any of my basic needs without a lot of help
from a lot of people.....

that is fact.....

I cannot exist as a human being without the help of lot
of other human beings...…..

and our connections can only deepen as we go into the future.....

for the nature of things is to go from simple to complex...
and as our society grows, our society/our state/ our culture goes
from simple to complex... the sheer number of people we have on
planet earth tells us that we must go from simple to complex in
our government, our society, our culture, the state....

what was good for our parents and grandparents isn't useful for
us because of the very number of people in the states or country
or the world is growing... and that very growth of people forces us
into ever more complex modes of existence...……

and complexity by its very nature, demands conflict resolution
at every step.... for conflicts grow in number and intensity with
complexity....

so we have all these millions of people living in a complex society,
complex state, and a complex culture and now what?

what are we going to do as a complex society?

what future lies ahead of us within a complex society/state?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:52 pm

I was watching the final "Star Wars" movie last night.....
and I noticed something I have never seen/realized before.....

all the ships, private and collective, big and small, all have weapons....

what does that say about the situation within this particular galaxy?

it is violent, separated, brutal..... everyone carries around personal
weapons.... what does this say about this particular society and time?

this is so blatant and obvious that people miss this....

but what does it say about a society that has a need for
all these weapons?

so think about those who demand a gun in every hand in America?

what does it say about their understanding of America and the world?

if we want to change the world, a la Marx, then we must begin to
go down to the basement of what it means to be human.....

we must see things for what they are..... our gun society denote
a unstable, insecure, uncertain, irrational society.. just as it does
within the Star Wars universe....

what else do we take for granted that shines a light upon the human condition?

what values or beliefs or actions shed light upon what it means to
be human..... in this time and place?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:57 pm

The ships have weapons!?!?!

EVERY Jedi has a light saber (weapon)

All the “good” people have weapons!

Also about Star Wars ! It’s eugenic Nazi-ism: the most powerful people only come from eternal bloodlines. Everyone else is less than.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:39 pm

let us take Nietzsche seriously and
think about our health, our spiritual health...…

is there such a thing as spiritual health?

individually and collectively...…

how would we find out?

in the last presidential election, we elected a clown/fool/idiot
as president....

what does it say about our spiritual health when we follow
presidential greatness of Lincoln and Roosevelt (pick one)
and Washington and Jefferson with a useless entity like IQ45....

some might disagree, but all one has to do is look out the window..
I see riots and everyone wearing masks with people who haven't worked
in months...…

just the very number of crisis suggest that this man is the most
inept, incompetent president in American history.....

a man who is without doubt, the worst president in U.S history.....

ask if there is proof that we are suffering from a spiritual
crisis and IQ45 is the proof...…

so, now what?

how do we escape from the current nightmare in the White House?

we begin by admitting we have a problem... all solutions
must begin with an acknowledgement that there is a problem....

if we continue to deny and lie to ourselves, we cannot
begin to find our way out of this spiritual crisis we are in right now....

or to understand it, we can use philosophical insight....

"the unexamined life isn't worth living"

so we examine our current situation...

we are in the middle of a worldwide pandemic,
we are also in the middle of a economic crisis
and, and we are experiencing nation wide protest...…

the answer to two of these crisis come from the exact same place...

holding ourselves and the individuals who allegedly serve us,
is to hold all of us accountable.... the protest in the streets stem
from the state and the police failing to hold themselves accountable....

so the pandemic can be reduced if we all wear mask and practice
social distancing but we are unable to follow even these basic
steps to reduce or end the pandemic because we are not
held accountable for our actions...…

I heard a churchman recently say, the root cause of all
our problems lie in the fact that we no longer read the bible,
no, the root cause is we don't hold ourselves accountable
and that includes our religious beliefs....

to those who won't wear mask...I say unto you that your refusal
to wear a mask is a big F U to everyone in our society
it says I am above you and superior to you... I don't have to follow
the rules meant to keep people and healthy....

FUCK YOU

Is the message of those who deny the need for a mask.....

and I can't be held accountable for the illness and possible
deaths I might cause....so what do I care?

and you ask if we are in the midst of a spiritual crisis?

those who believe themselves above rules and laws and
common sense are part of the spiritual crisis we are
suffering from right now.....

those who voted for IQ45 are part of the American spiritual crisis....

the very nature of the person you elected shows us we have no
values that we consider important.....

instead of reaching above and voting for a person who has
positive values, you voted into office someone who has
and wholly believes in negative values.... the values of hate
and lust and greed and anger and despair...… those are the values
that we voted into office....the 2016 election is proof,
proof that America is in the middle of a spiritual crisis.....

to those who cannot see, I cannot help you to see any clearer.....

if you cannot see this, you are suffering from a spiritual crisis.....

and what is the solution?

the first step, as always, to become aware.....

to know thyself...…. to examine your life with
honesty...….

most people lie to themselves..... are you another one?

J'accuse......you are suffering from a spiritual crisis....

J'accuse.....that you are afraid of looking into yourself honestly....

J'accuse…..you run and flee from the truth about who you are.....

J'accuse…..that America is in the midst of a spiritual crisis
and in the midst of a collapse... and you are accountable.....

I can hear it now... what me, I had nothing to do with the
clusterfuck that is America right now... run, hide and pretend
you had nothing to do with the current clusterfuck.....

your bad faith lingers... like the smell of raw sewage that lingers around
the air.....

your conscience cannot hide such a crime...….

what are you going to do?

accept accountability, responsibility
or try to run and hide from any such accountability?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:08 pm

Peter,

You took the bait!

Nobody has elected a president by votes from the US population in 32 years!

Ask me more about this!
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:37 pm

as noted before, I have been immersed in the writings
of Nietzsche... I finished "The Dawn" or "Daybreak" yesterday....
I am reading the books in order of being written....

so far, I am not impressed and had I done this method
the first time I read Nietzsche, I wouldn't have become
an Nietzschean...

by all accounts, the heart of Nietzsche works begin with
the "Gay science" and goes to the end...…

With "The Dawn", you can begin to see where he is starting to
go... but it is clear that his thought is changing, evolving with
every book... as it should.... philosophers should have ever changing
and evolving thinking to match their ever changing environment
and aging process.....

Because I am no longer 20 or 30 or even 40, my thoughts
are changing to match my age and my current situation.....

don't just think about what you believe in or hold to be true,
every so often wonder how you got there... what forces lead
you to believe in certain things.....

looking backwards every so often is just a valuable as looking
forward.....

to see where one has been can provide clues as to where one
is going.....

where have you been?

where are you going?

what do you hold true?

and are you engaged in "attack upon your convictions"
just as strongly as you engage in your strength of
convictions?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:38 pm

In following the course of the
"Modern" age spiritual crisis,
in thinking about it, it would seem that
our spiritual crisis began and has intensified as our
material wealth as increased...

the wealthier we have become as a society, the
barbarism of our time has increased...…

from the enlightenment to today, we have increased our
wealth, individually and collectively....

my own wealth today, and I am far, far from a wealthy man,
is the equivalent to a noble in the old days, the days before
the various revolutions, political, social, economic, cultural...…

I have no fear of starvation, no fear of the violence that racked
the lands of Europe before the revolutions, there are no imminent wars to
disrupt my life, I have all the gadgets of modern life and my life is good.....

and I am one of millions for which I am sitting pretty....
and yet I too suffer from a spiritual crisis.....

the illness that plagues modern man, this sickness,
has increased to the point where the vast majority of
people in the industrial countries suffer from it....

we are ill..... and yet we know not that we are ill....

the very words, spiritual crisis implies a religious context,
missing god and fire and brimstone.....

yet, I hold that our "Modern" illness, our modern
spiritual crisis has nothing to do with religion
or discovering the various books of salvation.....

the "modern" question of "how am I to be saved" is not
a religious question.....

it is a philosophical question.....

and it has risen because we do have such material wealth and
we don't know what it means to be human...….

what is the point of such material wealth?

it must serve some purpose other then just buying
another vacation home or another fancy car or moving up
to a 60 inch TV instead of a 54 inch TV set.....

those are empty values that fail to answer the questions of life....

for life itself, is a question..... it is not an answer.....

questions we refuse to engage with, hence we have a spiritual
crisis.....

what am I to do? what values should I hold? what should I hope for?

or "what are we to do? what values should we hold"? what should we hope for?"

these are just some of the questions we face as existing human beings....

But Kropotkin, why not use religion as a base for these eternal questions?

Because we no longer believe in god or heaven or hell or angels...…

Today, we human beings, we "moderns" have, rightfully,
declared that "God is dead" and we hold the instrument
of his death in our soul.... that instrument is simple
and clear.....we have lost faith...…

no different then what happen to the great gods of old,
of Thor and Apollo and Zeus and Ra and Anubis and Set
and Enlil and Enki and Sin and Nergal and Quetzalcoatl
and Huitzilopochtli and Quetzalcoatl..... Gods worship
and adored by Millions of people for thousands of years....

ask yourself, what was the fate of the gods of old?

and what spiritual crisis forced those gods to go quietly
into the good night?

no, no my friend....

our spiritual crisis has nothing to do with religion or being saved.....

I am old and I have had to change my beliefs to match my years....

as have you...you don't believe in Santa Claus or in the Easter Bunny
because such beliefs have no value as we grow older.....

our beliefs and values must, must change to match our ever
changing environment and situation...…

and too goes for the individual, goes for the collective, society.....

As the society/ collective changes and faces different environments,
the beliefs and assumptions of that society/collective must change
and adapt to the new reality... the new environment....

whereas Ra was one such means of understanding reality
and the environment, the belief in Ra could not explain
and understand the ever changing reality and environment
that the Egyptians faced...

that the Romans could believe in gods like Neptune and Juno
and Venus is because those gods were able to explain
and help Romans understand their reality/environment....

but what happened when their environment/ reality changed
and their belief in the gods were no longer able to explain
the new environment/reality?

you are faced with a spiritual crisis... and quite clearly Rome
faced a spiritual crisis that began during the change from
the Republic to the Empire...… Kinda like in Star Wars.....
the old Republic was in the throes of its final days...
the old ways, the Jedi was no longer an answer to
the questions of the old Republic because the old Republic
was changing into the Empire...…

answers to a set of questions change if the questions themselves
change.....religion is an answer to certain questions
and if the questions change, so does the answers....

just as today, our answers must change because the questions
have changed....

"the question of what does it mean to be human"
means something else if we live in age totally different
then was before the various revolutions...…

answers that made sense before the revolutions,
no longer make sense after the revolutions....
and we must change our answers...
and here we are...

in a spiritual crises because we are unable to create
answers that make sense of the new reality/environment of
the "modern" age....

the answer that fit the old ways no longer can answer such questions
as in, how do I find meaning working in a factory? or in a factory lite,
as I do?

what does it mean to be human given the old ways no longer exists....

can I have the same god when nothing else of my environment is
the same? in this environment, can I use a horse to get to work?
the vary logistical problems of having a horse preclude me
using a horse to get to work.... and yet, for thousands of years,
horses were the way we got around.... the environment/reality
has changed, horses that were human beings means of transportation
for thousands of years, no longer work in this reality/environment.....

I must change/adapt... as I must change and adapt beliefs
that were common and expected before the various
revolutions.....

people want to hold on to the old ways despite the fact that
the reality/environment has changed and our beliefs must
change and adapt to meet the new reality/environment....

so our "modern" spiritual crisis is really one of the fact that we
haven't, so far, been able to construct new beliefs to match
the new reality/environment....

one might say, we need to create new gods to match
our new environment....

I for one, am seeking a new way where we no longer
need or seek god or even salvation...…

so how do we adapt to the new reality/environment without
a recourse to gods or religion?

that was the question that faced Nietzsche...

if there are no gods, then what does our morality/ethics look like?

how are we to act if there are no religions or gods?

what does it mean to be moral, when it isn't based upon religion?

the law?

under the law, we have had slavery, the holocaust, World wars,
Jim Crow laws, women and blacks as private property.....

I don't believe our faith in the laws is warranted...…

so what else is there?

and so the search goes on.....

begun by Nietzsche and completed by...…..

what will be your contribution to the new values and beliefs?

or are you still held hostage by the old ways and values that
were demolished by the various revolutions?

we are living in the 21st century and our values should reflect that
fact.. our beliefs and religions and gods and our need for
salvation should reflect the fact we are now living in the 21th
century.....

why hold values and beliefs and religions that were created
over a thousand years ago?

why believe in capitalism and the old ways when our reality/
environment has already changed to make capitalism obsolete...….

come join us in the 21st century..
and BYOB.....

bring your own beliefs

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:54 pm

But Kropotkin, Kropotkin.....

I simply cannot keep up with the ever changing answers
and questions of the "modern"...…

you have thrown so much out and how can I make sense of all that?

I thrown so much out because we live in "modern" age, one
of complexity...our lives are no longer the simple, basic lives
of the farmer....

we live in complex times, with many moving parts
and vastly complicated systems...….

the old answers of Christianity no longer works in our "modern"
world.....

we cannot simply focus upon our own salvation and let the world
go to hell in a handbasket.. as the citizens of ancient Rome did for
200 years....

for we have a vested interest in preventing the next dark ages...

we can see the damage and destruction that will occur if we lose
this battle....

but Kropotkin, you are being unduly pessimistic... talk of a new dark age...
seriously? you are high...…

my friends, the future is not given, it must be fought for, worked for,
we must give our blood, sweat and tears to create a future worth living
for.... what have you done to create a better future?

for most of you, you have whined and complained about the injustice
you have faced...

the future that you want can only be built by you...…

and it must be built, not just individually, but collectively....

any answers that doesn't reflect our collective purpose
must be rejected....

it is no longer just about our individual selves...

think big or be part of the problem.....

what have you done to fight for the future?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:24 pm

Just before I went on this site right now, I paid
our cable bill....because of some extra money
came in from work... some bonus money due
to us from the signing of our new contract...…

and my wife and I have been talking about what to do with
that extra money...how do spend it?
we have spent some time on it and we have worked
out that we are going to pay some more bills and debts we have.....

you might ask, rightfully so, what in God's name does this have to
do with philosophy?

nothing and that is the point.....

we are so engaged in our paying off bills and seeking out new experiences
like going to the newest restaurant in town or planning that vacation you have
put off because of the worldwide pandemic

and that is the point... we are so engaged in our daily lives we "forget" to
engage in the questions of existence....

if I am busy paying bills or working or planning vacations, when do I have
time to think about the questions of existence....."who are we"?
"what are we to do?" "What are we to hope for?"

the sheer busyness of existence prevents me from engaging in
the real questions of what it means to be human...…

if I am too busy to think about the questions of existence, I
am no longer engaging in the quest to become human, all too human.

I am stuck in the animal side of existence.....

I have a mother and three sisters, a wife and a daughter.....

I have seen what women do when they are bored... they start doing
things like cleaning the house or they start doing laundry.....

they just can't sit still and just think.....

if they are doing something, they call it wasting time.....

If I am doing something other then just thinking about existence,
I am wasting time.....

that cleaning and washing clothes and moping the floor...
that busy work prevents me from doing the important work
of trying to make sense of my/ours existence.....

but one might argue, that without cleaning, the house will get dirty...

and frankly, I don't care..... it isn't important to me, it is busy work that
prevents me from thinking about this important thing we call life....

so what busyness keeps you from engaging in philosophical thought?

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:36 am

a crime has been committed.....

we must search for the nature of the crime.....

our evidence:

a confession.....

The madman:

"Have you not heard of that madman who lit a candle in the bright morning
hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: "I seek God! I seek God!-
as many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he
provoked much laughter. Has he gone lost? ask one. Did he lose his way like a child?
Ask another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage?
Immigrated? -Thus they yelled and laughed.

The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes.
Where is God? He cried, I will tell you. We have killed him-you and I.
All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this?".....


indeed, how did we do this foul act?

Just the same way that we murdered the previous gods of man....
Ra and Thor and Apollo and Anubis and Set and Enki among the many
Gods that have been slaughter in human history...

These Gods die because they no longer meet or fit our needs....
recall we have just as strong emotional, psychological needs
as we have physical needs.....

we must kill those gods that no longer meet our emotional needs...…

the Cristian faith is no longer meeting our needs, as an ism or an ideology,
and it has been murdered...…

what we the event that caused that murder?

the various revolutions, the scientific, political and philosophical
and the industrial revolutions.....those events have made it impossible
for people to have faith in the same God as the simple Shepard's of
the Middle East believed in...

the world and everything in the world is making a journey from
simple to complex... it is the nature of things.... and that complexity
has forced us to change, adapt to a new vision of reality/environment....

the old ways, the old gods no longer can meet our needs after
the various revolutions.....

we are seeking, but have we found?

and thus we are having a spiritual crisis...…

the time between gods... when the old gods leave
the land and before the new gods come to take over...…

you could replace the word "god" with the word "ism"
and have the exact same meaning...…

for belief in God is nothing more then a belief in ism's and ideologies...

there is discontentment in the land and that discontentment is caused
by the lack of an viable ism or ideology that we can turn to...…

democracy? we haven't failed democracy, democracy has failed us..
by being bought and sold like cheap linen...

we haven't failed our ism's, they have failed us...….
and we must seek new ism and ideologies that can't be
bought and sold to benefit others...…..

the new ism and ideologies must benefit us or they
have no value...…

and here lies the nature of our spiritual crisis...…
we have no ism or ideology that hasn't been spoiled
by cheap commerce of capitalism and nationalism
and other failed ism's and ideologies....

not only must we have our physical needs met, food, water, shelter,
education, health care, but we must have our emotional and psychological
needs met, love, belonging, safety/security, esteem...

but we have another psychological need that must be met.....

that need is a need to have working system of ism's and ideologies
that allow a person a compass or guidance to make their way in life...

we have no such working system of ism and ideology that allows
us to make sense of who we are and what is the point of life
and what are we to do?

we don't have that and thus we have a spiritual crisis...

the loss that prompted our current spiritual crisis is the loss
of god and the loss of the ism's and ideologies that keep people
engaged in what their life meant.....

the age old ism's and ideologies of the world that existed before
the various revolutions meant that man had a guide, a compass,
a means to understanding the world and their place in it.....

we no longer have those guides..... we are spiritual at loss because
we no longer have those old and familiar ism and ideologies that keep
human beings grounded and aware in the world...….

the old ism's and ideologies were destroyed during the various revolutions
and we no longer have a guide, a mission statement of what it means to be human....

I cannot whine or cry about something that happened many, many years ago...
my task now is to find us a new mission statement about what it means
to be human...…

we can end the modern spiritual crisis by a creation of a new mission
statement about what it means to be human and what is the goal of
being human...… what is it we are trying to do? and what will it take for
us to go from being animal/human to becoming fully human?

a new mission statement about what it means to be human...…

a new ism...….

to end the ongoing spiritual crisis that has engulfed the world.....

god is not the answer.... a new ism that tells us what it means to
be human is the answer.....

what is your mission statement?

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:37 am

ok, so let us think about this...…

we know that Nietzsche wrote about the "death of god"
which is also the "death of the ism's and ideologies" that
help human beings understand their place in the world.....

so Nietzsche wrote his "Gay science" in 1881.....
so, what was the result of the spiritual crisis that
was clearly going on...…

this is one area that confuses people... the loss of ism/ideologies/god
doesn't create an immediate impact... it takes time, years in fact....
we can see the impact with the increased tensions and problems that
occur after the turn of the century....1900.....

the spiritual crisis of the modern age impacts every major event
of the 20th century.... from World War One to the Great Depression
to the Second World War to the long war of the Cold war to
the 60's which was an attempt to solve the spiritual crisis....
the search, the seeking of the 60's is an clear attempt to answer
the questions left by the spiritual crisis....

and to this day, we are still suffering from this spiritual crisis
that is over a hundred years old...…

we can think of the Nazi's for example as an attempt to answer
the modern age spiritual crisis with Nazism being the answer
and we can see communism as being another attempt to
answer our spiritual crisis and we can see the busyness
and great effort of capitalism as being another attempt to
answer the questions left by our spiritual crisis.....

"We are we to believe in"

if we don't believe in the Christian god? what are we to believe in if we
don't hold to the old ism's of monarchy and the King and the absolutism
of the monarchy? What are we to believe in when science and the political
revolution took out the old beliefs that rules the world for a thousand years?

before the industrial revolution, 95% of all people on earth, lived
on the land, being farmers, the lives of most people were driven
by agriculture and its needs.....

that was lost and we don't have an answer to the answers
offered to us by the third revolution in our existence...…

from hunter-gatherer to the farmer/agriculture living
and today, we have a new way of life....

the hunter-gatherer existence lasted for a million years
the agriculture lifestyle lasted for 10,000 years
and then our new way of life which took over in less then
250 years..... notice the speed in which the new way of life
has taken over....have we human had enough time to process
our new way of life?

have we found our new isms that answer the questions that
exists because we are living a new way of life?

we have new experiences of existence, our modern, urban lifestyle...

our spiritual crisis comes because we haven't yet adapted to or
understood our new place in the universe....
and after 10,000 years of our agriculture life, we now engage in a new
form of existence.... have we adapted yet?

no, and we can see now how we have killed god....

because our new way of life, our new existence doesn't allow
room or space for a god based upon the old agriculture way of life...…

our existence is difference and so our ism's and ideologies and gods
must change and adapt to our new existence.. and thus we are suffering
from a spiritual crisis.....

the rise of fascism and Nazism and Trumpism and other dictatorships
answers to the questions rise because people have yet adapted to
or changed their isms and ideologies to meet the new reality/environment
that exists today....

the rise of IQ45 is a direct example of the spiritual crisis that fills
the land...…

if we had faith and belief in the old ism's and ideologies, we wouldn't
need to find our faith in Trumpism...…

it is the result of the loss of faith in the old ism's and ideologies
that created room for dictatorships that exists all over the world...…

our spiritual crisis has created the many world wide crisis of the last
120 years...….

as Mulder said, "I want to believe"

In what shall you believe in?

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:56 am

as I have noted before, one of the primary needs of
a human being is education....

now, we "moderns" have misunderstood exactly what it means
in terms of being educated.....

Our education begins the very day we are born...…

we begin to learn that very first day.....

we experience things, such as cold and soft and hard.....
but we don't have the words to label it as such...…

childhood is about labeling things....

this is hot, when referring to something hot...
this is cold, when referring to something cold,
this is hard and this is soft and this is mom and this is dad...…

education in our very early years is simply learning to name things....

this is a dog, this is a cat, this is a tree, this is a stove...stay away from
the stove because it is hot.....this is a TV.... this is the floor, this is a door....

our childhood is spend learning the names of things.....

another goal of education is to indoctrinate children....

as I have gone over time and again, we indoctrinate children
with our beliefs... America the great is an indoctrination....
going to church is an indoctrination....prayer is an indoctrination.....

the third goal of education in America is to train children to
become workers.....

we have removed some basic educational methods by
removing such educational ideals as Art, history, social science.....
we have kept that which a child can make a living from.....

in other words, if we train children to become factory lite workers
like me, they don't need to know art or history or social science...
factory lite workers only need to have a moderate understanding
of math and counting and enough social skills to keep customers
happy.....that's it... if monkeys could count out change, I would
be out of a job....

but I maintain that we fail our children when we only educate
them to become workers...…

we must education children to become human beings...….

what does it mean to be human? now the Arts and literature
and history become important.... to what end are we educating
children?

what is needed?

what we need is a new "Enlightenment"...
not one that tries to attack the old ways, the old isms
and ideologies....

no, that isn't what enlightenment means...

the very term of enlightenment means coming to a realization
of what it means to be human.....

it is a positive, coming to understand something, not to deny
something that was the original intention of the enlightenment of
Voltaire.....

the original enlightenment was about attacking the old forms
of oppression, the church and the state...…

but and this is important, the actual engagement of enlightenment
is about some understanding of what it means to be human.....

this new enlightenment is our understanding that we are in a journey
from animal, to animal/human to becoming, fully human.....

we can give children the tools they need to engage with enlightenment
but we cannot actually create any sort of enlightenment within them...
that process is within us, individual and separate, apart from other
engagements with what it means to be enlighten....

I can walk the horse to the water, but I can't make him drink....

and the same can be said about enlightenment....

we can walk the child all the way to the water (enlightenment)
but we can't make them drink.....

the new path of enlightenment is not about some agenda against
something but a path toward something....

the goal is no longer to train children to become workers...

but to lead children to become human beings...…

and the entire Raison d'etre of the modern world,

creating workers and consumers....

that is no longer is the reason/goal for what it means to be human...….

we are not meant to be workers, but we are meant to be human beings..

so let us act upon that goal..... how do we become human, fully human?

we must change the entire point/goal of education if we are to
achieve our goal of creating human beings, ones that are not
animal/human, but fully human...…

to become human, we must return to the Arts, to poetry, to
literature, to painting, to the many manner of creation that
exists....to path to becoming human lies in our act of creation...
of ART and the only way we can reach this new goal is to
create a new enlightenment.. in which we no longer hold
to the old paradigm that we find our true nature in work..
that work is uplifting and work is noble and work defines who
we are....the new enlightenment rejects these notions that work
is anything more then a means to lower us to animals.....

enlightenment means we discover the path to becoming.....

human... all too human....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:33 am

according to my handy, dandy dictionary....

Enlightenment: the action of enlightening or the
state of being enlightened:

the action or stat of attaining or having attained
spiritual knowledge or insight... in particular
(in Buddhism) that awareness which
frees a person from the cycle of rebirth.....

as I have noted, whatever an individual can experience,
is also communal/community experience.....

we can experience enlightenment both individually
and collectively...……

and because it is communal, collective, we can
discover what it means to be human, not just individually,
as workers or consumers but as human beings.....

we are social beings and an engagement with becoming
enlightened must also be in terms of being social
and communal.....

the original enlightenment motto was: Sapere aude….

Dare to think for yourself. Dare to know.....

but to know what?

and what was one going to do with any knowledge we might
attain?

the original enlightenment failed to include operating instructions
as to what to do once we have our knowledge..

"dare to think" in regards to what?

what was the point of our gaining new knowledge?

and what was the point as to "dare to think for yourself?"

we need to give people a reason to think, because on their own,
people will rather die then try to think...….

what is the incentive for people to attempt a personal
enlightenment? to become who they are?

and against something isn't enough, it has to be for something,
not just against something like the state or the church
or the culture or the society...….

what are we for? instead of what are we against?

we can be for the positive values of existence...

love, hope, peace, charity, justice, and a thousand other
positive values.... all we have to do is engage with those
positive values... enlightenment can just mean we become
aware of, and engaged with positive values instead of
engaging in negative values....

the path, the journey to becoming human lies with the
positive values of existence... and becoming enlightened
is one way of becoming aware of this.....

becoming enlightened means becoming aware of.....

and every step of becoming enlightened, leads to
another step along the way.....

take the first step and stop and think....

what does it mean to be human?

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:52 pm

this much I know to be true.....

that human beings are social creature...
we cannot exist alone...
every question I can ask, can be asked both
individually and collectively.....

that we human beings cannot avoid suffering....
it is a much a part of existence as breathing and eating..
so instead of trying to avoid suffering,
one should learn to accept it.....

that the point of existence is to discover and fulfill our
possibilities...to become who we are...…

that the ideologies and ism's that lasted for over a thousand years
are no longer viable....that the modern complexities of our urban,
industrial society with it vast number of people have overwhelmed
the pre-industrial ism's and ideologies...…the political ism's of monarchy
and nobles and the static state can no longer exists...that we cannot
hold onto outdated economic theories like capitalism..

that we are a people, culture that is in search of ism's and ideologies
that match our current situation... I hope that we become the first
culture that says no to gods and yes to people...….

that we finally engage in working toward a future that includes all of us....
the future doesn't happen by accident.. it must be worked for, fought for,
dreamt of and engaged with....every decision we make today, impacts and
helps create the future of tomorrow.....

that the only way we humans become who we are is by the simply step
of becoming aware.. know thyself....examine our lives.....examine our values.....

and one more truth: that that is no one, unifying truth that covers all....
the search for a single, unifying truth is doomed to failure.....
we have as many truths as we have human beings.....
I have my truths and you have yours....

these are some of my truths.... what are your truths?

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:25 pm

the question people ask are simple questions:

what is the meaning of life?
what is the point?

let us say that there is not point, no meaning to life...
many people will panic and decide that having no point in life,
nullifies and negate their lives...…

but I say unto you... the opposite happens....

without a fix and set meaning to life, where life has no point,
actually frees you, liberates you...…

because there is no set, fixed meaning to life, we can
make life be what we want it to be....

I can become who I want to be because there is not any meaning or
point to life...

I can become who I am when there is no meaning to life...…

instead of some artificial and false meaning to life, I can
work out what is my meaning to life and because it is mine,
I am, perhaps for the first time in my life, authentic and real.....

to find out there is no meaning or point to life isn't the end of life,
no, it is just the beginning of life.... we are free to become.... whatever....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:53 pm

Autonomous:
A. having the right or power of self-government.
B. untaken or carried on without outside control, self-contained
C. existing or capable of existing independently
D. responding, reacting, or developing independently of the whole.....

much of the original enlightenment worked around this idea
of being autonomous....especially Kant.....

to be an autonomous figure outside of the authorities of
the time, the church, the state, the society....

we have concerns being autonomous today because we
have more forces to worry about....
we can add the media and culture, work...……

in our time, we cannot be physically autonomous...…
we are so connected and interconnected that we can't even
if we tried, to become autonomous (outside) of society/state.....

but we can be autonomous in our mental/psychological/emotional
state....we can work on being mentally autonomous from the
modern state which is more and more turning into a police state...….

we can free ourselves from this by our emancipation from the
indoctrinations of our childhood... we can become free by
a mental emancipation from the myths, habits, prejudice, superstitions,
biases of our modern age..... these includes the myths of a god, of
America the great, of nationalism, of the prejudice against people
for their accidental traits of color, race, creed, sexual orientation...

I cannot be free of our modern society in terms of my physical needs,
to meet my need for food, water, shelter, health care, education..
I must engage with society and the state.....
I must engage with my fellow human beings to met
my needs of love, safety/security, belonging, esteem.....

but where does autonomy fit into this complex web of needs, both
physical and emotional/psychological?

By knowing that we must engage with society to met our primary physical
and emotional/psychological needs.... but we can also be in control of
who we are..... we can rise above our indoctrinations and that gives
us autonomous/independence from society/the state...…

by holding onto values and beliefs that I have worked through, not
given by society/state, I am in control of my values, I can live within
the values I choose, not live with values given to me by my family,
the state, the church, the media and society...….

my engagement with my values gives me independence or autonomy from
the forces wishing to dictate to me what I believe in....

I can become autonomous mentally, emotionally, psychological,
philosophically...…

I am autonomous when I engage with the values I have created or values
I hold to be the highest values regardless of the values the state/society/culture/church
wants me to hold....

my engagement with my values, not the states or the society or the church or
the media values, my values....and then I am being autonomous...…….

how do we reach this point?

once we begin our reevaluation of values which means we subject the values
we hold to testing and reevaluation and see if they are really our values or, or
if they are the values we were indoctrinated with in our childhood and within
our education....

"I hold these truths to be self-evident"

not the states values, not the society values, not the church values,
but my values, my truths...…

the new enlightenment requires, demands that we engage with what it means
to be human and what does it take to become human, who we are...…..

our current engagement with the state is all about us being workers and consumers,
that must end if we are to find out who we really are...…

is being autonomous the highest possibility for us humans?

no, it is just another step along the way....

so what is the next step? who knows, I for one have no idea.....
but we can find out by our engagement with what it means to be human....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Dan~ » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:24 pm

One of my plans was to provide a reduced dependence on humanity.
Through non-rent / reduced-rent.
Then all you'd need is food and drink.
We can try to make those things on our own also.

Freedom-to, and freedom-from.

The problem, it seems,
is that few people are ready for this.
So it would be difficult.

However, thank you for your post.
You seem to be reviewing ideas that i have also tried to review in my own way.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby iambiguous » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:34 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:the question people ask are simple questions:

what is the meaning of life?
what is the point?

let us say that there is not point, no meaning to life...
many people will panic and decide that having no point in life,
nullifies and negate their lives...…

but I say unto you... the opposite happens....

without a fix and set meaning to life, where life has no point,
actually frees you, liberates you...…

because there is no set, fixed meaning to life, we can
make life be what we want it to be....

I can become who I want to be because there is not any meaning or
point to life...

I can become who I am when there is no meaning to life...…

instead of some artificial and false meaning to life, I can
work out what is my meaning to life and because it is mine,
I am, perhaps for the first time in my life, authentic and real.....

to find out there is no meaning or point to life isn't the end of life,
no, it is just the beginning of life.... we are free to become.... whatever....

Kropotkin


Well put.

I have my usual reservations of course but this encompasses a frame of mind that allows any particular individual considerably more options in their life. As opposed to those who insist that not only is there an overarching meaning to life but that they have come to embody it. Meaning that their options revolve solely around doing either the right or the wrong thing.

Of course in believing this it becomes the foundation upon which their comfort and consolation rests. No small thing. But their options are no less circumscribed [even circumvented] by subscribing to one or another rendition of The Way.

God or No God.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:36 pm

Peter, John-

How could we get to the point where we would avoid paying rent?

That is now up to 50% of the cost of living wages.

Another 15-20% goes for transportation

Leaving about 30% for food, medical, dental, insurances, retirement, entertainment, cosmetics and hair care, travel, and clothes' purchase and cleaning.

A lot of people would resent any help here, for they own their own homes, and pay only taxes and utilities.

Would free universal 'projects be the answer?

I
I have never thought about it in these terms, only with the memory of commune-all living, as in flashbacks and dreams that occasionally come through.

I must interject, inadvertently, since I believe now, more than ever, there are at this point in the American experience, some really great potential opportunities for tremendous societal changes.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Dan~ » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:40 pm

Meno_ wrote:How could we get to the point where we would avoid paying rent?

Ideally we could own something, then not have to pay as much rent for owning it.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:44 pm

Dan~ wrote:
Meno_ wrote:How could we get to the point where we would avoid paying rent?

Ideally we could own something, then not have to pay as much rent for owning it.




I was thinking more in line with reasonable universal reduction in rents, with rent control across the board.

Here in. Ca its called chapter 8.
Extremely hard to qualify for. And even after that there is a very long waiting list.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:15 pm

this thread is open to all.... feel free to offer up your possibilities.....

I shall continue on.....

I wonder why we don't honor or even have anything resembling
what the ancient Greeks called "Sages".. Wise men who educated us.....

now this isn't an expert.. that is something different...
we have expert on virtually everything under the sun....
but we don't have anything like a wise man or a Sage...…
or even someone we might call an educator...…

why is that????????

I have named my educators... Colin Wilson, Friedrich Nietzsche,
Walter Kaufman, William Barrett, Goethe, Kazantzakis, Pierre Hadot,
and they are my private educators, but do we have educators that
exist for all of us?

who stands as an educator, a teacher for us all?

I would submit that in America, we have a shortage of
educators for all of us.....

We might include Washington (I cannot tell a lie)
and then Lincoln (with malice toward none, with charity for all)
FDR (All we have to fear is fear itself)
MLK (Life's most persistent and urgent question is, "what are you doing for others"?)
and a second quote,
(injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere)
third quote (the ultimate measure of a man is not where he
stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands
at times of challenge and controversy)

what we need more of is public educators, sages, wise men...
those who guide us and advise us and educates us...…

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7934
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

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