a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:15 pm

Tolstoy once wrote:

Every man bears within himself the germs of every human quality.
and if you are honest, you will think better of evil men, because
you are their brother, and worse of your own goodness, which
is stained with so much patent or repressed evil. That inner inspection,
(or reevaluation of values that every great teacher has called for)
ends all complacency, all self-righteousness" that we hold....

I have walked away from everyone... I stay home and read and write,
only going out to work.. I disconnected myself from my fellow human beings...
friends and family to work out my "inner inspection"...to revaluate my values.....

what I am writing is my report of what I have found....

if you want to explore what it means to be human and what are
your values, then you too must disconnect from your daily
activities... you must explore what it means to be human, in
the quiet of your own thoughts...…. true revaluation requires silence
and quiet, peace of mind, hours and hours of just..... thinking...
no radio, no TV, no movies, no people... I listen to music, a lot...
and that helps me think and reevaluate.... my music is quiet
and peaceful.. new age music... just me and the quiet of the
piano or flute or guitar..... I think best with music...
quiet, thoughtful music...I have replaced my daily contact with
other human beings with music.. I hope to find that which makes me
human...

I too am human and thus I too have a disconnect between my words
and my actions..... I must connect what I say, with what I do....

who am I? what am I to do? What are my values?
upon what should I expend my energy on?
what can I know? what should I hope for?

Kantian/Kropotkin questions of existence....

questions you should be asking yourself in the quiet
of your thoughts....

If I am honest, and few are that honest, I too bear
the seeds of both evil and goodness...
I can choose, intentionality, to be good or to be evil.....
it is my choice.... and you too bear the seeds of
good or evil.... Machiavelli says that you cannot
change the seeds of whether you are good or evil....

I am not my 12 years self and thus proving that I too,
am capable of change...of becoming an adult...
of choosing good or evil...or choosing to have values....

and thus if you believe in free will, you believe in choice..
and by choice, we can become who we are.... we have the
freedom to act.. the freedom to pick our values and
become those values.....

Machiavelli preaches determinism...you have no choice....

I preach the values of freedom....

and what value do you choose?

freedom or determination?

pick and set yourself up to answer your questions
of existence...

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:33 pm

the way we understand things is wrong....

we think the path to becoming requires us to do something..
we must do something to become knowledgeable or to become
wise or to become who we are...….no, a thousand times, no....

we don't need to slay the dragon or journey as Luke Skywalker did
to become a Jedi.... we only need to go silent and quiet
and disconnect.... to hear our inner voice and see what it means
to become human in our own words and in our own values.....

you want world peace and the end of war and violence...

the path lies in the silence of you own mind.....

see the seeds of all that we are and then simply choose
the seeds that fit you... become your own seeds of values.....
you have the free will to become who you are.. who your seeds
say that your are...you only have to choose... in the silence that
is who we are.....becoming who you are isn't a tale told by an idiot,
full of sound and fury.. signifying nothing....

it is a quiet, peaceful almost imperceptible change from who you were to
to who you are...…. and change is like that.. not with a bang, but with
the whisper....and the silence that comes with knowledge, true knowledge
of who you are....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:48 pm

we seek answers and the means we seek them is by
efficiency... the best use of time.... time is money, right?

but we have overvalued money and devalued time.....

the path to becoming isn't on the time clock and it isn't
efficient and it isn't done by the proper technique...….

we become on our own clock and in our own time.....

the path to our happiness isn't defined by a clock or by time
or by becoming more efficient....

In fact, the chief obstacle to our becoming wise or knowledgeable
or becoming human is being efficient and time effective
and by bearing down on working harder....

keeping our nose to the grindstone is in fact, a hinderance to
our becoming wise and becoming who we are...

disconnect and then once you can see your own values,
then and only then can you reconnect to society....

the path to world peace isn't financial or becoming more efficient
or with laws or dictatorships.... it begins and ends within our own
understanding of the seeds that lie within us and which seeds
we then choose to become who we are....

you decide the future by which seed or value you decide to make your
own....

the path to a better world starts when we decide which values we choose to be....

it is by choice and not determination that decides the future...…

and what value will you choose?

and why?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:11 pm

those MAGA believers... they somehow believe that we can
make America great again by holding to values like hatred,
bigotry, anger, lust, greed, violence, the seven deadly sins....

have they even given a moment thought to what truly will make
America great? no, no they haven't... but Kropotkin, how do you know?

because those who hold lower values of hatred and violence
and anger and lust, have never given a moments thought to
what it means to hold those values.. because if they had,
they wouldn't actually hold those values because to hold to
those values mean they don't believe in freedom
and what it means to reach for god or reach for, become
who you are....

the seekers, the ones like Kazantzakis and Jesus and D.H Lawrence,
they hold to the search for values, not how efficient they are....
and not how fast they reach their values.....

seeking isn't about being efficient or the model use of time....

seeking is about seeking regardless of how long it takes...

to seek means you are no longer bound to the time constraint of
the modern world.... to punch the time clock.. to achieve
profits in the second quarter......to be a CEO by the time you are thirty...

irrelevant to the seekers.... so you want to become something....

then seek and isolate yourself and become...…

MAGA isn't about becoming something, it is about becoming which
happens on it owns time and place...

seek and ye shall find... is true only if you don't put a clock to your seeking....

MAGA is within us, not outside of us.....

and that is why those who defend MAGA haven't given it a moments thought..
as to what will make America great..... it is that which is within us that
makes America great.....not outside of us....

so it isn't the dow jones or the GDP or the allege greatness of America.....

it is about taking the time to find our own seed of being human.....

no time clock, no efficiency, no time is money crap.....

to seek is to put oneself outside of time and space.....

for seeking is that which is within us....
and we don't need time or space to find that which is within us....

we just need honesty.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:38 pm

a MAGA believer sees a painting...
is it beautiful, they are asked?

they don't know.....
for they lack the tools to see beauty.....

for to see beauty, to have one's breath taken away
by the sunset is to have love...…

for we can only be see beauty when we are held by love
and within love...…

can you be creative without love?

no, for the act of creation is the act of love....

that is why MAGA believers are not about beauty or the
sight of the sunset that takes away the breath of those who love.....

the MAGA believer only holds to hate and anger and greed
and thus they cannot see beauty.....

beauty can only exists to those who live within love...

and art and all that is involved in ART and the creation of art
is the act of love...…… and which is why a MAGA believer cannot
appreciate art or beauty..... they don't love and are unable to love...

IQ45 is unable to see the love in the world and is for all intents
and purpose, is impotent....unable too take effective action;
helpless or powerless....because he cannot love...…

his failure to appreciate art or beauty is prove of this.....

do you see the beauty of the sunset?

do you see the beauty of a picture?

do you love?

for love is the only means possible to see and understand ART
and beauty...

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Posts: 7835
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:57 am

a dialogue:

IQ45: I am the greatest Christian ever, including Jesus Christ....
(actual quote from the Donald)

K: you are nothing of the sort.. you aren't even a good human being.

IQ45: of course, I am a great human being. I am wealthy and
that automatically makes me great.

K: as if wealth makes one great... let us see some great human beings
in history and see if wealth makes one great. We can see from history,
from the biography of great human beings that wealth has nothing to do
with greatness... if that were so, we wouldn't have heard from the poor men,
like Jesus and Einstein and Newton and Socrates and St. Augustine and
Galileo or Da Vinci or Hawkins or Gandhi or MLK or any number of remarkable
individuals who created Art, science, history, math, economics.. to name a few...

wealth isn't what make an individual great... in fact, wealth is detrimental
to greatness... for those who were seekers of wealth, say, Rockefeller or
a Henry Ford.... they were not creative thinkers or intellectuals....
they weren't the great human beings like a Gandhi or a Da Vinci or Goethe....
they were in fact, small human beings... Ford for example was a racist,
anti-Semite, who in the 1920's emerged as a spokesperson for right-wing
extremism and religious prejudice who supported Hitler...

Ford suffered from the exact same problem you have, he and you lack
love and are unable to love.. you are impotent....unable to love....

IQ45: why that is nonsense. I see a beautiful women and I say outright,
what a beautiful women.

K: No, that isn't love, that is lust... you lust after her like a piece of meat....
You are not in love with women...your access Hollywood tonight comments
were clear proof that you can only lust, not love, but lust....a beautiful picture
to you only has value if you can sell it for some price...that is acceptable.....
that isn't love of beauty or of art....

and your followers follow that same feeling that they are unable to love
because if they could love, they wouldn't approve your insults because
insults are degrading and dehumanizing and are by their very nature,
nihilistic ……..and degrading people, dehumanizing people isn't love..
it is hate and fear and anger....

you are unable to love thus you are unable to create or picture
beauty.... to create is to love..... creativity comes from love....
hate and greed bring about destruction and chaos... both of which
you desire....you thrive on chaos and destruction and that isn't love....

love builds, love creates, love rises up, love makes us better people...

hate destroys, hate shatters, hate ruins, hate dismantle all that is good
in people....

look at all the great people in history, the ones we builds statues to,
to Einstein and Gandhi and MLK and Socrates... they could love
and thus they could build and create and appreciate beauty....

you cannot, because you hate and hold lust as your primary value...

beauty is something you cannot see or appreciate because your
vision is blinded by hate and lust....

as is your followers are blinded by hate and lust and greed....

they cannot see beauty or love or a sunset that makes one
go wow.....

IQ45: I have something better then love and better then beauty,
I have money and money can buy you anything....

K: that is the value of someone who thinks in the material world...
there is more then being able to buy goods like cars or houses or TV sets....

You cannot see the value of love because of the hate that fills your soul,
the hate and intolerance and bigotry that lines the pockets of your soul....

you hold empty values along with the empty promise of wealth...

as long as you seek wealth over love, you will wind up, perhaps with money,
but certainly without love and without love, you have nothing that gives
your life meaning or value or purpose...…

money cannot under any circumstance offer you peace or happiness or contentment....
nor love.....

peace of mind only comes from love...…

and you don't have any.....

thus your constant discontentment and anger.....
you lack even basic happiness.... and you will never find
happiness until you find love and love only comes to those
who put wealth after love...not before...…

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Posts: 7835
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:18 pm

I have harped upon factors which motivate us to act,
positively or negatively....

I have called them values....and we also have needs and
desires that motivate us to act.....and then we have another
factor which motivate us to act or not to act... emotional
aspects.... one of the great drivers of human beings is fear.....

this has been installed into us by evolution.... the fight or flight process
which is driven by fear..

now I must admit, I don't understand this emotion... I am not driven
by fear in my actions.... but I see my daughter is driven by fear.....
she is deathly afraid of getting the virus....and she is afraid of
so many things....

as for me, I am not afraid of death.. Actually, I am afraid of very little...
I do have a weakness and that is for many years, I had a fear of heights...
and to this day, I still don't like heights...

I can't tell you how I got to be afraid of heights... but it was clear by high school,
my senior prom was in hotel in San Francisco, on Union sq....the hotel had
these glass elevators and my date and friends of mine thought it would be
fun to ride these elevators... I was quite clearly, very disturbed by this...
and so, just for fun, they rode the elevator over and over and over again
to the top of the hotel.... I was practically sick by the end... and they
just laughed at me.....I spent the rest of the night by myself sitting at a table,
being bored out of my mind...….as I knew I was afraid of heights, I tried to
overcome that by taking up sports that forced me to overcome my fear...

I did pole vaulting in high school in an attempt to overcome and shortly
after high school, I engaged in rock climbing with a friend....

I didn't actually fly in an airplane until I was 19.. so that route was not really
a possibility...

so I understand the crippling fear that can occur to us from various sources....

so I see fear, which of a biological construction, I can see how fear can
can run our lives and control what we do.....

and I maintain, we in America is driven by fear....
we are afraid of our own shadow..... the right wing media
machine helped drive this fear as that is the only way the
GOP candidates can be elected, by fear...….

and they were helped by 9/11... a totally fear driven event....
our fear driven event was, by far, an overaction to what happened....
two wars and the patriot act which created our modern police state....

fear can drive one to commit actions that one would normally not
even consider...… and this current pandemic has driven people
to exhibit a great deal of fear... as with my daughter....

but part of overcoming is overcoming such things as fear...…

fear allows the false demarcation of us vs them....
it allows for nationalism and isolationism and
tribal thinking.... in this day and age, with our modern
technology, we cannot afford to have fear as our dominant
emotional response...

but why?

fear drives one to impulsive actions, to protect by
fight or flight.... and neither action is warranted by
our current situation....

again, let us think about events after 9/11....

we were in fear and so we attacked Iraq and Afghanistan...
even though they had nothing to do with 9/11 in any way, shape or form....

we are in fear and so we attack Asian citizens about the virus....

we are in fear and so we promote dumb theories about Jews....

the question isn't about eliminating fear, we can't....

it is hardwire into us......the question becomes
one of control... however we can control our fear
and be the master of our fears....

do you let your fears control you or do you control your fears?

that is the question...…

a few years ago, the wife and I went on vacation to Seattle....
and yes, I went to the top of the space needle... I was afraid,
but I controlled my fear.. enough to even look down at the street
below....

what is your fear? and how do you handle it?

do you allow your fear to control your actions or do you control the fear?

we can see many people on ILP being driven by fear...

every single rant about illegal aliens or the Jewish people or
nationalism or tribalism is a rant about how they are afraid....
and the object of their fear is their rants about nationalism or
aliens or Jews...

IQ45 rants against illegal aliens and minorities
and women.... why? because he is afraid... he is a very fearful
person... he has allowed his fears to dominate his entire viewpoint....

every action and word out of his mouth is driven by fear of something....

are you afraid?

it is ok to be afraid.... just don't let it control you....


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:09 pm

so, what other emotional responses do we react to?

love for example, much of what we seek is love.....

our response to love is different then our response to fear....

fear is much harder to control....

I have classified fear as a negative emotions
and love as a positive emotion....and it is....

and according to Maslow, love is one of the primary needs of human beings...
but fear isn't....

and that is true....fear keeps us from doing something stupid..
love is about filling a need...one emotion is toward something
and the other is away from something....

love is something that you can never have enough of....
it is limitless, without boundaries.... the more love you have,
the better you feel...that is why love is a positive emotion...
you can never get enough of it and if you do, that is even better...

and what does fear cause?

it has caused wars and famines and murder, both large and small.
it has caused people to invade other countries and to torture people....
look at the gun/violence culture in America.... we are afraid and
so to calm our fears, we turn to guns/the threat of violence.....

you can see the most afraid people, they are the ones who are
the loudest promoting guns as a solution to America's problems....

I would argue that guns create more problems then they solve...
but those in the midst of fear, they are so afraid that they cannot
see any other solution but guns.....

a gun culture driven by fear can only offer up solution of fear,
by using guns as a fear driven solution, we only offer up fear...
the very gun culture we have, creates more fear..it doesn't reduce
the fear in our culture, the presence of guns promotes the culture of fear...

if you advocate guns as a solution, then you are advocating fear as
a solution for fear....not much of a solution, is it?

the only solution for fear is to overcome it.....

FDR said this:

"So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to
fear is.... fear itself- nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which
paralyses needed effort to convert retreat into advance"

to convert retreat into advance..... yes, we must overcome our fears to
overcome the retreat of isolationism and nationalism and anti-Semitism....
and tribalism of us vs them..... to demonize illegal aliens
and minorities and women and homosexuals... to demonize because
we are afraid.. we hold fear and to continue that fear, we demonized
people who are different then us, in looks or sexual preference or different
religious preference or hold different political views.... that is why
the right demonizes the left, because the right is afraid...
the left doesn't demonize people because we aren't held hostage by fear....
as the right is, as the GOP is, as IQ45 is driven by fear.....

IQ45 base, that base is driven by fear.. fear of aliens and minorities
and women and gays among other fears....

they like IQ45 demonizing people because that is what the base does because
they are so fear driven...listen to conservative radio. listen to Rush and Hannity,
they are fear driven.... be afraid of everything is their message.....

they paint dire pictures of America... think of the message they often deliver,
the gay agenda, the left allowing the borders to be wide open,
to take your guns away, taking your rights away, these messages of fear
delivered by the right wing media...
and they messages of fear have no basis in fact, but fact is irrelevant
when fear is involved..... the right wing media drives the current fear in America
and feeds it lies and propaganda...…. why?

too hold power.... that is the basis of the drive to frighten everyone....
so the right wing can hold power... you quite often hear the right wing,
say the left is weak on crime or weak on defense... that is a fear based
argument... the only way you can protect yourself is by electing
right wing politicians because they aren't weak on crime or weak on
defense..... that is a message predicated upon fear....and that is the message of
the right wing and IQ45....a message of fear.....

if we were to overcome our fear, we would never elect another
right wing politician again... and they know it....so you have strong
fear based messages from the media, the state, the church, the family....

so, do you allow the fear to drive you or do you overcome your fear and
learn to control it?

that is the point.... the battle is not out there but inside of yourself....

so are you going to overcome fear?

if not, why not?

ask yourself, why am I so griped by fear?

and ask yourself, what can I gained if I overcome my fear?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:11 am

I have been thinking... about what our time is...

I can't help but to wonder what the future will make of all this,
the virus, IQ45, the number of deaths, the shutting down of virtually
every American business... the massive unemployment....all of it.....

what will future historians or future philosophers write about this
time we are living in.... this year of 2020, in April...…

they will say, unprecedented times, extraordinary times,
unparalleled times, a singular event...…

and they will all be right and they will all be wrong.....

are the times we are living in, are they similar to living in a play,
a tragedy like Romeo and Juliet, or perhaps Oedipus Rex or perhaps
Hamlet? if one looks up tragedy online, you get a lot of Greek plays
and some plays by Shakespeare... the only really modern play listed is
"Death of a Salesman" by Arthur Miller.....

have we lost the ability to understand or create a "tragic" play?

is our modern times so tragic that we cannot even produce a "tragic" play
because to do so would be to simply reproduce our modern headlines....

Could I even be able to compare a Greek play, say, Oedipus Rex, with
any sort of modern event which includes our great "tragedy" the pandemic?

can we compare any part of our modern age with the idea of Greek Tragedies or
any sort of modern tragic plays?

the problem lies with the numbers... We cry at the two deaths of Romeo
and Juliet and feel nothing when our modern death toll rises to over 60,000....
which means in three months, we had more deaths then the entire Vietnam war,
which lasted 11 years...but the problem then arises.... people who call 60,000 deaths,
a hoax, a fraud designed to deprived them of their civil rights....are we so
selfish that we see 60,000 deaths as some kind of attack upon our person?

it is a plot to take away my rights.... they say, but they do not say that they are sorry or
angry that 60,000 people died needlessly or what an injustice was done.....

no, they take the massive death toll as some vague attack on their own person.....

what will future historians make of this?

60,000 people died and all people could make of it was an personal attack upon
their rights!

that is practically delusional.... to turn the deaths of thousands into
a personal attack upon your rights...to say, being told to stay home to protect
lives is an attack upon your freedoms... what kind of selfish are you?

and what will historians make of this type of selfish behavior and words?

how is this even possible?

the deaths of 60,000 people and the only reaction people have is to complain about
their rights?

no wonder we cannot produce any type of tragedies today....
we are so lost and confused as to think that our rights being
curtailed is more important then the deaths of 60,000 people....

there cannot be a tragedy written about this.. only a caricature could
be written about a people who think that their rights have more validity then
the deaths of 60,000 people....and that the deaths of 60,000 is a hoax, a fraud,
designed to take away your liberties....

only a comedy could be written about such ignorance.....

I tried to see if Aristotle has some words about tragedies, that I might
create some words I could write today... but no.... I cannot create
a tragic play or novel on today's events because we can't even
feel remorse or pain or regret over the loss of 60,000 lives...

it is a hoax.....fake news...… a nothing burger...…

I can't even tell who I feel more sad about,
the 60,000 deaths or the fools who think their feelings
have more value then 60,000 deaths.

who can produce a decent tragedy when people think their
rights have more value then 60,000 deaths.....

I have been thinking... and it is pointless because people values are so screwed up
that they believe their rights preempt the deaths of thousands...

how can I write or explain tragedy when people cannot even be moved by
the deaths of 60,000 because it doesn't fit into their mode of understanding....
it is fake news and they can't believe anything else....

how are historians going to write about this?

what will history write about us?

that we cannot even grieve for 60,000 people because it might
interfered with our right to visit the solon or coffee shop?

what a sad commentary on the modern world

and a sad commentary about America...…

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Posts: 7835
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:27 am

and in the grand scheme of things...

to go out of control isn't that bad.... it is the equation that
must be kept...… in other words, the balance of our actions must
remain equal.... the equation must be kept....

so if we go hog wild and get drunk... that is fine,
as long as the life equation is kept going...

it is not about the one or two night of drinking oneself silly that is
important... it is the many nights of balance that matters....

the overall balance must be kept....

we can forgive an occasional high or low...
it is the overall balance that must be maintained.....

one night of debauchery can be forgotten or forgiven....
if, if we hold the rest of our time in balance....

I have said this many different ways to impress upon you the importance
of one's balance in life.... the high's and lows are less important
then the = sign....

I am old and one night of drinking and I will suffer long for it...
the balance is automatically maintained...… I cannot go out of
the balance if I even wanted to because of the immediate
consequences that I will suffer from going too high or too low...

when I was young.. I didn't suffer immediate consequences from my actions,
which lead me to believe that I could act outside of the equation and not suffer from it...

but that is false... I still suffer I just missed it or I dismissed it as unimportant....

what happens if we go outside of the equation is referred to as
consequences... and those consequences are part of the laws of
thermodynamics..... for every action, there is an equal and opposite
reaction...…. we humans do not exists outside of the laws of physics....

we are not exempt from those laws....as those laws exists for us individually,
they also exists for us collectively.... if we go outside the bounds of
the collective equation, we will suffer.. we will face consequences....

if the government mistreats its citizens badly, maybe not today and maybe
not tomorrow, but at some point the government will suffer the consequences....
it will suffer... the basic laws of physics...

if you want to not suffer the laws of consequences of being evil,
then one must be good... the laws of physics demand that we
engage in both individual and collective behavior of treating people
with decency and respect......people respond to goodness with goodness....

and one might say, Kropotkin, you said equal and opposite reaction...
thus if you treat people good, they will treat you badly.. equal and opposite...
but have you tried to treat people with honesty and respect?

in my experience, people react much better to being treated good
then to be treated badly....

you get a better response from people if you treat them like they
are human beings, then if you treat them like crap....

and if they don't Kropotkin? what if I treat someone with respect
and they mistreat me? my, my why are we so worried about what other's
might think or do? the best you can do is treat people with decency and
respect.. if they don't equal that, that isn't your problem.....
you can feel good about your actions and what you did.....

the equation still remains if you treat people from and with goodness....

if they chose to break the equation, that isn't your problem....

you can hold your head high if you treat other's decently....

regardless of how they treat you back.....

the equation of treating people well, will still remain the same....

don't mistake maybe and might and could be with some sort of
reality that exists... maybe and might and could be simple
possible futures.....

and not known until you take some action...……

so hold to the equation... and treat people with respect and decency
and as human beings...

you will feel better about yourself for it....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:21 pm

X + 13 = 20

So what is X?

We know the answer to be 7

take the 13, move it to the other side, -13 so 20 - 13 = 7

this is your basic equation.....

the two sides are equal....

13 + 7 = 20

they say the same thing....

another equation is energy = mass or energy = matter....

the two sides are equal....

and this is true of all of life... the two sides must be equal.....

so we have another aspect....

we have individuals and we have the collective....

if we have individuals on one side and the collective on the other side,
then the two sides must be equal...

individual = the collective or the society if you will.....

so what does an equal society look like?

well, we know that to be equal, all parties must be treated equally....

for that is the essence of equality/justice.....

if some are treated unequally, either the wealthy are treated better
and/or the poor minorities are treated worse, then the equation is
off.... it is not equal...and thus we have inequality in our equation....

enough inequality within the system and the system itself collapses....

a math problem must be equal for it to be of use....

1 + 1 = 2... this can only be of use if it is equal....

1 + 1 = 4... is an unequal equation and thus worthless....

a society must be equal for it to survive.....
if it is unequal, then at some point, the society
will collapse...the weight on one side or the other,
will throw the system off balance....

if the society overwhelms the individuals, then the weight
of the society will throw the system off balance.. it will collapse....

or if the individuals overwhelm the society, then the systems collapses.....

so we must engage with keeping the system balanced as we must keep
the individuals within that system balanced.....

think about it... we struggle with the work/life balance all the time....

if too much time is spent at work, we lose our balance in life.....

if we don't drink enough water, we lose our inner balance that is maintained
by drinking enough water.....

if we need individual balance, we must replace that inequality with something
that will hold the balance in our lives...….

lacking nutrients, then we take a supplement to recover that balance.....

seeking individual balance is one of the task of modern life

and so should seeking balance between individuals and society is another
balance we must seek...…

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Posts: 7835
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby iambiguous » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:38 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: I am finally ready to answer you, but not a point by point discussion....

the fact is until a fetus is born, it is a clump of cells.. if it cannot survive on its
own, it is not a human being....



Okay, here's another fact: that not a single one of us here on earth was born without first having been that clump of cells. And a new born baby cannot survive on its own, right?

No, from my frame of mind, once conceived the unborn are just step by necessary step from being like all the rest of us.

Others, of course, use different demarcations here: beating heart, brain waves, viability outside the womb. And, if that works for them, then it becomes the bottom line. Besides, there is always the argument that men have no right to an opinion at all here because only women are confronted with the wrenching reality of actually dealing with an unwanted pregnancy.

But: how on earth would any of these positions be demonstrated as [objectively] reflecting the optimal or the only rational point of view? In a No God world.

Then comes the part that I describe as being "rooted in dasein":

Peter Kropotkin wrote:but the fact is I must, in all fairness,
my own understanding of abortion....as I was directly affected by the
abortion issue.....

my mom was pregnant with me in 1958, Minnesota.. when she was 4 months pregnant,
my older sister went to friends house who had the measles, against my mom direct orders....
she was infected.... the doctors told her that because of the measles, anything that was
being developed at the time would be damaged...I could have been born with no arms,
no legs, no mental abilities, severely damaged in countless ways.... they told her
to get an abortion.. in 1958.. because my family was upper class, it would have
been very easy to get an abortion and call it a "procedure"... she did not
and when I was born months later, because I had all my bodily limbs, the
doctor called it a success.. later they discovered my hearing loss and I have
limited finger dexterity... (which is why I took up typing in high school)
anyway... my life has been directly impacted by the abortion issue in ways
that most people have never had.... and yet, I still, to this day, approve
of women having abortions.. if my mom had, I wouldn't be here.. plain and
simple.... but Kropotkin, why do you approve of abortion if you would not
be here if your mom had an abortion?


This encompasses your own unique "story" as dasein. And [from my perspective] it's not a question of whether your mother did the right thing or the wrong thing. But that what she chose to do was in turn rooted in her own existential "I".

Today we have any number of contexts in which doctors are able to diagnose afflictions that the unborn will have if the mother chooses to give birth. To abort or not to abort? So, what can philosophers and ethicists agree about here in regard to each situation? How are these decisions not rooted existentially in the individual "I"?

That's always my point. And, in regard to abortion, my own "I" here is encompassed on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

And then from my own frame of mind -- no less an existential contraption rooted in dasein -- you go back up into the realm of the "general description intellectual contraptions":

Peter Kropotkin wrote:life is about the quality of life.. it doesn't matter if you live to be
100 if, if your quality of life is terrible... I would rather live to 70
and have a better quality of life, then live to 100 with a bad quality of life....

I believe that everyone, everyone, as part of the basic needs of existence,
need love and belonging....and if we cannot give all children that basic
and fundamental need of love and belonging, I don't think that they
have a good quality of life...and thus they shouldn't be born....

I had love and belonging as a child...my basic needs were met...
but for a whole lot of children being born, they lack love and belonging
along with the basic necessities like food and shelter and education
and health care.... why should we force children to
endure, yes endure a terrible quality of life just to satisfy some
need in us to hang on to life, no matter what?

life itself isn't the criteria we must use to justify life,
the quality of life must be the criteria we use to justify life....

a commitment to life is a full and complete commitment...
if we cannot commit completely and absolutely to children, then
we cannot allow children to lead lives without the basic necessities
of food, water, shelter and love and belonging.....


But: don't the conservatives have their own rendition of this? Only they start with the assumption that none of this can come about [given either a liberal or a conservative political agenda] if the babies are shredded and then flushed away.

The part which from their point of view you just completely ignore:

Peter Kropotkin wrote:but Kropotkin, you are asking for a firm, absolute commitment
about life and there is no such thing....

then I say, we must allow women to have abortions
even if they have the slightest doubt.. because life means to
much to commit to, unless we commit completely and absolutely
to it.....

if we cannot commit to children to having an excellent quality of
life, we cannot prevent abortions because we owe it to them for
every child to have a great quality of life....

it isn't about life but the quality of life that matters....

Kropotkin


If you can't even imagine how many conservatives would be appalled, aghast, outraged by an argument of this sort, then at least I suspect that they cannot even imagine how liberals would be appalled, aghast and outraged at their own arguments in turn.

But at least most liberals and conservatives are not "fractured and fragmented" when confronting abortion. At least they have the comfort and the consolation of knowing that they are on the right side of the issue.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:46 pm

so IQ45 and his followers seek hate and anger and lust,
the seven deadly sins, along with intolerance, bigotry to name a few more
negative instincts....

that is bringing society out of balance....

what can we do to bring society back into balance?

by holding to the values of tolerance and love and peace.....

if the GOP advocates violence and hatred, we must advocate
peace and love to maintain the balance of society.....

the American society has long been an advocate of martial values...
and what are martial values? hostility, aggressive, combative,
belligerence, war like.... who do we proclaim to be the hero's of society?

the troops, the soldiers... I see ads on TV all the time, thanking the troops
for their sacrifice and service...……. but we don't put ads thanking the
advocates of peace, the ones who want us to give peace a chance....

so, to hold the balance of the society, we must advocate peace, love,
non-violence...to keep our society, we must think in terms of the
equation that society needs to hold it together....

peace = war...

the two sides must be equal or the society collapses....

simple as that....

we must hold the balance between the various forces in life
and within society and within ourselves.....

we wonder about what happen in modern society?

we lost the balance that society held for thousands of years...

with the introduction of capitalism and the industrial age, we no longer
have the balance between the various forces in life....

that is why we are disconnected, alienated from life, society and each other.....

how do we recover the balance that we individually and collectively need?

see what life was before capitalism and before the industrial revolution....

we were a rural, agricultural based society..... and what was the focus of
that society? the slow movement of time based on the seasons and not
on the time clock..... part of the disconnection within society has been
the introduction of modern time within society.....

time is money... in our modern world, but time isn't money in the world
before the industrial revolution....

am I advocating a return to the world before the industrial revolution,
like Rousseau? no, not at all.... I am simply pointing out that we must return
to balance....and what is the new balance in our lives?

that is what we must discover...….

if our society is anti-peace and against art and beauty...
then to recover our balance, we must stand for peace
and art and beauty... to balance out the society.....

balance is the key...…

and maintaining the equation....

it is always about the equation....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7835
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun May 03, 2020 7:32 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: I am finally ready to answer you, but not a point by point discussion....

the fact is until a fetus is born, it is a clump of cells.. if it cannot survive on its
own, it is not a human being....



Okay, here's another fact: that not a single one of us here on earth was born without first having been that clump of cells. And a new born baby cannot survive on its own, right?

No, from my frame of mind, once conceived the unborn are just step by necessary step from being like all the rest of us.

Others, of course, use different demarcations here: beating heart, brain waves, viability outside the womb. And, if that works for them, then it becomes the bottom line. Besides, there is always the argument that men have no right to an opinion at all here because only women are confronted with the wrenching reality of actually dealing with an unwanted pregnancy.

But: how on earth would any of these positions be demonstrated as [objectively] reflecting the optimal or the only rational point of view? In a No God world.

Then comes the part that I describe as being "rooted in dasein":

Peter Kropotkin wrote:but the fact is I must, in all fairness,
my own understanding of abortion....as I was directly affected by the
abortion issue.....

my mom was pregnant with me in 1958, Minnesota.. when she was 4 months pregnant,
my older sister went to friends house who had the measles, against my mom direct orders....
she was infected.... the doctors told her that because of the measles, anything that was
being developed at the time would be damaged...I could have been born with no arms,
no legs, no mental abilities, severely damaged in countless ways.... they told her
to get an abortion.. in 1958.. because my family was upper class, it would have
been very easy to get an abortion and call it a "procedure"... she did not
and when I was born months later, because I had all my bodily limbs, the
doctor called it a success.. later they discovered my hearing loss and I have
limited finger dexterity... (which is why I took up typing in high school)
anyway... my life has been directly impacted by the abortion issue in ways
that most people have never had.... and yet, I still, to this day, approve
of women having abortions.. if my mom had, I wouldn't be here.. plain and
simple.... but Kropotkin, why do you approve of abortion if you would not
be here if your mom had an abortion?


This encompasses your own unique "story" as dasein. And [from my perspective] it's not a question of whether your mother did the right thing or the wrong thing. But that what she chose to do was in turn rooted in her own existential "I".

Today we have any number of contexts in which doctors are able to diagnose afflictions that the unborn will have if the mother chooses to give birth. To abort or not to abort? So, what can philosophers and ethicists agree about here in regard to each situation? How are these decisions not rooted existentially in the individual "I"?

That's always my point. And, in regard to abortion, my own "I" here is encompassed on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

And then from my own frame of mind -- no less an existential contraption rooted in dasein -- you go back up into the realm of the "general description intellectual contraptions":

Peter Kropotkin wrote:life is about the quality of life.. it doesn't matter if you live to be
100 if, if your quality of life is terrible... I would rather live to 70
and have a better quality of life, then live to 100 with a bad quality of life....

I believe that everyone, everyone, as part of the basic needs of existence,
need love and belonging....and if we cannot give all children that basic
and fundamental need of love and belonging, I don't think that they
have a good quality of life...and thus they shouldn't be born....

I had love and belonging as a child...my basic needs were met...
but for a whole lot of children being born, they lack love and belonging
along with the basic necessities like food and shelter and education
and health care.... why should we force children to
endure, yes endure a terrible quality of life just to satisfy some
need in us to hang on to life, no matter what?

life itself isn't the criteria we must use to justify life,
the quality of life must be the criteria we use to justify life....

a commitment to life is a full and complete commitment...
if we cannot commit completely and absolutely to children, then
we cannot allow children to lead lives without the basic necessities
of food, water, shelter and love and belonging.....


But: don't the conservatives have their own rendition of this? Only they start with the assumption that none of this can come about [given either a liberal or a conservative political agenda] if the babies are shredded and then flushed away.

The part which from their point of view you just completely ignore:

Peter Kropotkin wrote:but Kropotkin, you are asking for a firm, absolute commitment
about life and there is no such thing....

then I say, we must allow women to have abortions
even if they have the slightest doubt.. because life means to
much to commit to, unless we commit completely and absolutely
to it.....

if we cannot commit to children to having an excellent quality of
life, we cannot prevent abortions because we owe it to them for
every child to have a great quality of life....

it isn't about life but the quality of life that matters....

Kropotkin


If you can't even imagine how many conservatives would be appalled, aghast, outraged by an argument of this sort, then at least I suspect that they cannot even imagine how liberals would be appalled, aghast and outraged at their own arguments in turn.

But at least most liberals and conservatives are not "fractured and fragmented" when confronting abortion. At least they have the comfort and the consolation of knowing that they are on the right side of the issue.


K: as I am now working off of my
iPad because my computer died. So this isn't going
to be pretty, so hang in there.

The problem I see with your philosophy is
The inability to connect the individuals philosophy
with any type of collective philosophy. If everyone was as fractured as you, we couldn't even be
able to hold any type of collective discourse.
People would be so caught up in their own
individual "existential contraption" that collective
discourse would become impossible. Your
philosophy is a roadmap to solipsism.
And as much fun as that sounds, uh no.

The human question we face is as much a
individual one as a collective one. Whatever individual answer we find, must fit
Into the overall, collective answer we seek.

It is not about me, but about we. And in to
get to some collective understanding about who
we are, we have to sort out our individual
Questions.

I am a man, a liberal, philosopher, married,
American, heterosexual, Californian, atheist.

Each of these "labels" have an individual aspect
And a collective aspect.

And each to make sense, must have a collective
aspect along with the individual aspect.

This is why philosophies like Stirner failed.
As human beings, we are, for better or worse,
connected to each other. We cannot dismiss
a million years of biology and evolution to
turn away from each other. All philosophy at
some point must come to grasp with both
our individual self IN connection to
our collective self. What is your collective
answer to the human condition?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7835
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 04, 2020 12:47 am

iambiguous wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: I am finally ready to answer you, but not a point by point discussion....

the fact is until a fetus is born, it is a clump of cells.. if it cannot survive on its
own, it is not a human being....



Okay, here's another fact: that not a single one of us here on earth was born without first having been that clump of cells. And a new born baby cannot survive on its own, right?

No, from my frame of mind, once conceived the unborn are just step by necessary step from being like all the rest of us.

Others, of course, use different demarcations here: beating heart, brain waves, viability outside the womb. And, if that works for them, then it becomes the bottom line. Besides, there is always the argument that men have no right to an opinion at all here because only women are confronted with the wrenching reality of actually dealing with an unwanted pregnancy.

But: how on earth would any of these positions be demonstrated as [objectively] reflecting the optimal or the only rational point of view? In a No God world.

Then comes the part that I describe as being "rooted in dasein":

Peter Kropotkin wrote:but the fact is I must, in all fairness,
my own understanding of abortion....as I was directly affected by the
abortion issue.....

my mom was pregnant with me in 1958, Minnesota.. when she was 4 months pregnant,
my older sister went to friends house who had the measles, against my mom direct orders....
she was infected.... the doctors told her that because of the measles, anything that was
being developed at the time would be damaged...I could have been born with no arms,
no legs, no mental abilities, severely damaged in countless ways.... they told her
to get an abortion.. in 1958.. because my family was upper class, it would have
been very easy to get an abortion and call it a "procedure"... she did not
and when I was born months later, because I had all my bodily limbs, the
doctor called it a success.. later they discovered my hearing loss and I have
limited finger dexterity... (which is why I took up typing in high school)
anyway... my life has been directly impacted by the abortion issue in ways
that most people have never had.... and yet, I still, to this day, approve
of women having abortions.. if my mom had, I wouldn't be here.. plain and
simple.... but Kropotkin, why do you approve of abortion if you would not
be here if your mom had an abortion?


This encompasses your own unique "story" as dasein. And [from my perspective] it's not a question of whether your mother did the right thing or the wrong thing. But that what she chose to do was in turn rooted in her own existential "I".

Today we have any number of contexts in which doctors are able to diagnose afflictions that the unborn will have if the mother chooses to give birth. To abort or not to abort? So, what can philosophers and ethicists agree about here in regard to each situation? How are these decisions not rooted existentially in the individual "I"?

That's always my point. And, in regard to abortion, my own "I" here is encompassed on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

And then from my own frame of mind -- no less an existential contraption rooted in dasein -- you go back up into the realm of the "general description intellectual contraptions":

Peter Kropotkin wrote:life is about the quality of life.. it doesn't matter if you live to be
100 if, if your quality of life is terrible... I would rather live to 70
and have a better quality of life, then live to 100 with a bad quality of life....

I believe that everyone, everyone, as part of the basic needs of existence,
need love and belonging....and if we cannot give all children that basic
and fundamental need of love and belonging, I don't think that they
have a good quality of life...and thus they shouldn't be born....

I had love and belonging as a child...my basic needs were met...
but for a whole lot of children being born, they lack love and belonging
along with the basic necessities like food and shelter and education
and health care.... why should we force children to
endure, yes endure a terrible quality of life just to satisfy some
need in us to hang on to life, no matter what?

life itself isn't the criteria we must use to justify life,
the quality of life must be the criteria we use to justify life....

a commitment to life is a full and complete commitment...
if we cannot commit completely and absolutely to children, then
we cannot allow children to lead lives without the basic necessities
of food, water, shelter and love and belonging.....


But: don't the conservatives have their own rendition of this? Only they start with the assumption that none of this can come about [given either a liberal or a conservative political agenda] if the babies are shredded and then flushed away.

The part which from their point of view you just completely ignore:

Peter Kropotkin wrote:but Kropotkin, you are asking for a firm, absolute commitment
about life and there is no such thing....

then I say, we must allow women to have abortions
even if they have the slightest doubt.. because life means to
much to commit to, unless we commit completely and absolutely
to it.....

if we cannot commit to children to having an excellent quality of
life, we cannot prevent abortions because we owe it to them for
every child to have a great quality of life....

it isn't about life but the quality of life that matters....

Kropotkin


If you can't even imagine how many conservatives would be appalled, aghast, outraged by an argument of this sort, then at least I suspect that they cannot even imagine how liberals would be appalled, aghast and outraged at their own arguments in turn.

But at least most liberals and conservatives are not "fractured and fragmented" when confronting abortion. At least they have the comfort and the consolation of knowing that they are on the right side of the issue.


K: as I am now working off of my
iPad because my computer died. So this isn't going
to be pretty, so hang in there.

The problem I see with your philosophy is
The inability to connect the individuals philosophy
with any type of collective philosophy. If everyone was as fractured as you, we couldn't even be
able to hold any type of collective discourse.
People would be so caught up in their own
individual "existential contraption" that collective
discourse would become impossible. Your
philosophy is a roadmap to solipsism.
And as much fun as that sounds, uh no.

The human question we face is as much a
individual one as a collective one. Whatever individual answer we find, must fit
Into the overall, collective answer we seek.

It is not about me, but about we. And in to
get to some collective understanding about who
we are, we have to sort out our individual
Questions.

I am a man, a liberal, philosopher, married,
American, heterosexual, Californian, atheist.

Each of these "labels" have an individual aspect
And a collective aspect.

And each to make sense, must have a collective
aspect along with the individual aspect.

This is why philosophies like Stirner failed.
As human beings, we are, for better or worse,
connected to each other. We cannot dismiss
a million years of biology and evolution to
turn away from each other. All philosophy at
some point must come to grasp with both
our individual self IN connection to
our collective self. What is your collective
answer to the human condition?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7835
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 04, 2020 5:16 pm

Double post sorry
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7835
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 04, 2020 5:28 pm

double post
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7835
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 04, 2020 5:41 pm

Yah you know. Double post
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7835
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 04, 2020 7:37 pm

Still on iPad.

This question of an equation, is best found
during the years between 1850 and 1900.

You have the rise of capitalism and the industrial
Revolution. With this rise came another rise, the
rise of both anarchism and socialism. These
Two ideologies rose as part of the equal and opposite
reaction to the industrial revolution and capitalism.

Then again during the Great Depression, around the world,
both communism and socialism rose in response
to the clear and obvious failure of capitalism,
and the industrial revolution.

History is full of reactions to events, Equal and
opposite reactions. The British tried to get
the Americas to pay taxes and the end result
was the war of Independence. Much of history
is this push and pull of actions and responses
to these actions.
History properly understood is the understanding of actions and reactions to these actions.

Not only our collective history is actions and
reaction but individually. Much of our own
personal reactions to the world is reactions to
actions. Parents tell their children not to smoke or
not to steal or not to do drugs or have sex, and
the next thing we did was to do one or more of
these "forbidden" things, equal and opposite
reaction.

So among your actions and/or beliefs are the reactions to someone else actions or reactions?

What do you hold to be true as a response to
another's actions or reaction?

It could be argued that all human responses are
basically from us in reaction to someone or something else?

We can see that every action right now is
either in response to the virus or is response to the
political response to the virus.

So those protesting the political response to the
Virus, are reacting, the equal and opposite response
to the virus and the political response to the virus.

So how did you respond to the virus or the
political response to the virus?

Was your response an equal and opposite to
the current situation?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7835
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 04, 2020 10:20 pm

If we could discover a rational
moral principle, I.E a definitive
demand upon our Behavior made
by reason, not by our biological
or psychological impulses or
desires or urges, as noted by Kant.

Our morality and laws are designed to
curb our urges, desires, needs both physical
and psychology.

"Thou shall not" is aimed at those
urges and desires that plague us.

But we also have needs, and the law
also forbids us from meeting those which
keeps us alive. To eat when no other choice
is possible, we turn to a violation of morality
and the law. We steal bread. To meet a basic
biological need of ours or to feed our children.

So ask yourself, what is the greater crime,
For a person to steal bread from another or
for a person to starve in the midst of plenty?

If you say stealing, then you believe
in property before people's lives. Is property,
material goods really a higher priority before
peoples lives?

At this point I don't see how we can create
a completely rational morals principles.

Morality and the laws are designed to
protect property and to punish desires
and urges and even needs like hunger.

But our morality and laws are a failure
if they don't react or a person or a child
who is starving as against the laws or morality.

In other words, it is just as immoral for
a person to starve as it is to steal. Ours
laws and our morality must condemn
society that allows a starving person
As it does a thief.

If we don't meet the basic biological needs
of our citizens with as much codemnation
as we treat stealing, then property has more
value then a starving person. Is that a Christian
message we want to send?

If there are starving people, then we are
not "pro-life". For we must connect our words
with our actions. For this is the true meaning
morality. We hold to the basic premise that
meeting our basic physical needs of food,
water, shelter, education and health care,
meeting those needs is what being moral means.

Morality has a collective value of meeting the
needs of the society and the individual with
that society.

What moral action have you taken toward
your fellow human beings?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7835
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Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue May 05, 2020 7:52 pm

We have private, individual, morality, apart from
our collective, society morality. I have my
own private set of values that I will not
depart from.....I don't hit women or children,
I won't steal from someone, I don't commit acts
of violence, my base from which I start from
is peace..... I understand that other people
are like me... To commit violence or to
denigrate people is to devalue or dehumanize
other people. To act with the certainty that others
have the same rights and values as I do. They are
human too. Justice, to treat people with justice
is to engage with people with equality. We all exists
on the same plain, no higher or lower, equal.

We all have, because we are the same...human,
the same biological needs and the same desires,
and the goal of achieving our possibilities...
now my possibilities are different then your
possibilities. I do not have the possibilities as
you because I have different abilities and
talents and different education and bodily
differences like my hearing loss.
Our differences means our possibilities are
different.

But those differences don't make us any less
human, just different.

IQ45 has publicly said that "illegal aliens are
subhuman"

He is negating, dehumanizing others...
And that is wrong, immoral, because it
does negate, dehumanizing human beings.

He does so on the basis of an "us" versus "them",
ideology.... If you are not "us", then you are
less then me and my chosen group.
That is not equality nor is it justice.
That is the problem with an "us" vs "them"
understanding... In my own private values,
I reject an "us" vs "them" because it creates
an artificial divide between people and other
people, groups, nationalities, religions, genders,
and the color of one's skin.

I don't accept the concept of looking at people
via their differences. We should see people based
on their sameness, their similarities, their closeness
to who I am... My affinity to others lies in
our similar needs, our similar desires, our
similar goals of achieving our possibilities....

As long as we see other people as "other",
we cannot achieve our own goal.

For the bottom line of human existence is the
undeniable fact that because of biology and
evolution, we are social creatures, bound to
each other, for education, for meeting our
basic needs, for satisfying our desires, for
the goal of achieving our possibilities....

My own personal goals and values are tied up
into our collective goals and values.

I do not and cannot act individually for I am
bound to the collective, we call human beings.

And whatever values I deem to be mine, must
have an collective nature....

To be technically correct, there is no you or me,
there is only us.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7835
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue May 05, 2020 8:25 pm

You might say, I must achieve or meet my
needs. I must achieve the bottom, basic
needs of being human. I need food, water,
shelter, education, health care, to name some
of the bodily needs that all humans have.
But you cannot, cannot achieve these needs
by yourself. Without other people, we cannot
meet our basic needs. You might say, I desire love,
but love and those other basic needs of esteem
and security/safety, cannot happen without others.

Your desires can only be fulfilled in others,
as with esteem and safety/security and belonging.
Your needs, desires, urges can only be met
within a collective, not individually....

Only in others can your needs, desires, urges ever
get fulfilled. That is the legacy of our biology and
our evolution. We need others to meet our needs
and desires.

And here lies why we must treat others with
value and virtue. Because we need them.
We cannot reach who we are without their help.

Or to be blunt, why should I help you if you
are a dick to me?

And here lies the course of our laws and morality.

It is in our own self interest to seek justice being
done. It is within our own self interest to seek
equality because within equality, we can meet
our own needs and desires. If I am not treated
equally, what is my incentive to help you achieve
your needs and desires?

This new viewpoint requires us to rethink
our current values and reevaluate what it means
to be human.

Can you achieve your needs and desires without
others?

Good luck with that.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7835
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue May 05, 2020 9:34 pm

As a human being, I can only exist in
relation to others. As Kropotkin, I cannot
exist in isolation to others. Every single aspect
of my existence is determined by others.

I do not grow my own food and my electricity
is done by others and my education was
done in schools and I am protected by
both the police and fire departments....

I cannot be who I am without others...
that is simply a statement of fact.

So what does that mean politically?

What is true of us individually, that we cannot
exist without others, is true collectively...

In other words, the collective cannot survive
without me.....

Think of it this way, the Roman Empire fell
because the average individual was negated,
Dehumanized by the Roman state. This led
the average citizen to simply take their energy
away from the continuation of the state to the
promise of Christianity... Why engage in a state
that brings me no value? What is in it for me to
continue the Roman Empire? Truth be told,
there was no value for the average citizen
to hold to the Roman Empire. The empire didn't
meet any of the needs that an average
person had. The state couldn't protect or
feed or secure the rights of the average person
in the Roman Empire. In any state where it's
everyone for themselves, is a state that will
lose the allegiance of its citizens....

If the theory of rugged individualism were true,
there would no point to having a state...

So what should a state hold to?

What are the basic requirements of the state?

What values should the state hold?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7835
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue May 05, 2020 10:24 pm

A state must hold to certain ideas....

One: we are dependent on each other to
reach our needs and desires and urges.
I cannot achieve my needs of food, water,
shelter, education, health care by myself.
And I cannot reach my desires and urges by
myself. The desires of love and esteem and
security and belonging are achieved though
others.

If I want to achieve my needs and desires, I
need the help of others. And if you want
to reach your needs and desires, you
need my help. The current path of an
adversarial relationship between people and/or
the state, prevents me from achieving my needs
and desires and it prevents you from achieving
your needs and desires. It is only in the give and
take of relationships that will allow both of
us to reach our goals...if you support me in
my goal of going to school and being educated, and
I will support your goal of meeting your goals,
of having your needs met. This can work because
our goals and needs are different from each other.
My needs and goals at 61 are vastly different
then they were at 21 or 31 or 41....

The current conservative viewpoint of, I have
mine, fuck you and your attempts to meet
your needs and desires.. Cannot hold because
it devalues and negates your needs and desires...
Why should I engage if only your values and needs
are met?

What is my incentive to work with you?

Much of our current political and social
dysfunction is caused by our egotistical
belief that I have mine and so, fuck you.

And we will continue to be plague
by dysfunction until we learn to work with
each other in an honest attempt to achieve our
respective needs and goals, with each other.

So we begin by asking, what is the value/point
of government? We answer that by an honest
understanding of our own understanding of
what it means to be human?

We are social creatures, that can exist and
meet our needs and desires by working with
each other. I cannot achieve anything by
myself, I need you as you need me.

So government is the engagement of
people working together to met our
own needs and desires. You scratch my back,
and I scratch your back....this is what the real
meaning of the phrase: government of the
people, for the people and by the people, means.

A selfish person will in the end, wind up
without their needs being met because I see no reason to help or aid a person who won't
help or aid me. It is only by honest cooperation
that our needs and desires will be met.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7835
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed May 06, 2020 12:33 am

The question of equality is found in
a proper understanding of evolution....

It can be compared to the equailzation of
the earth due to the revolution caused by
the Copernican revolution....

Where is up and down in reference to
evolution? Can we say that this person
or that person is "superior" given the
implications of evolution?

I might have a talent you don't but you might
have an talent I don't have, and how do
we understand "superiority" given
talent is due to nothing more then random
acts of the mixing of cells that created you or
me. My parents had a modest bit of athleticism,
and I was the kid in my family who inherited it..
It was random who got the athleticism and
who didn't... I cannot make any claims of
superiority given the random nature of any
skills or talents I may have received.

Should I claim any type of superiority
given the randomness of evolution.

So given the equality of evolution, can we deny
equality as a primary facet of existence?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7835
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

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