a new understanding of today, time and space.

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:00 pm

I was thinking about the "human condition"...

this being "thrust" into the world... where we have various
groups indoctrinating us...family, the state, the church, the media,
culturally...….

also, our existence is transitory, temporary.....
and anything we do is also transitory, temporary.....

we are faced with existential questions right at birth, "what am I to do?"
"what should I believe in"? "What values should I hold"?.....

if one were to describe the modern world, part of that description
must have the word, technology, within that description......

human existence has always been intertwine with technology....
from our using rocks and sticks to hunt game to our modern use of
computers for example, the gamut of technology has run from
low tech like rocks and sticks to high tech..... but the effect
has been the same...… technology regardless of its being low or high tech,
has changed our lives in some fashion.... today, we cannot imagine life
without our technology.... I ride on a train to work, I use my "smartphone",
I am writing this on a computer being lit by electricity and cooled by a fan....
all sorts of technology going on within 5 feet of me...….

technology isn't inherently good or bad, we discover its "good" or "bad"
by its uses.. how much damage does a particular technology does will
show us its state of "goodness" or "evil"...….

for example, technology is being used to destroy the retail industry...
perhaps the single biggest industry that employs people....
as technology increases we drive people out of the retail industry....
for example, my company, a grocer company loves technology
and uses it to minimizes/limit the number of checkers the company
has to used...…every single self checkout machine reduces the number
of checkers our store uses...….. I am being made obsolete by
technology...……...and why this drive to use technology to replace
workers? Profits... nothing more, nothing less...….. thus we see
a possible use of technology that is "evil" because it reduces the number
of people working to increase profits of the company or business at large...…

the overall goal of my company is to make profits, and thus by reducing
the number of workers, and still maintain the profit margins, we find
machines doing my job..... and who benefits? certainly not me, and
I don't believe the consumers who shop in my store benefit from
this increase in technology to eliminate jobs...…

one of the things I see all the time is lonely people who shop
to engage with other people.... Many old people come into my store
because it might be the only contact with other humans they might
have that day...…..we are social creatures and we must have
contact with other people.... it is inherent within all human beings....
recall the worst punishment we give anybody is solitary confinement...
no contact with people...….so we see from this one example,
technology has separated us from each other... you don't have contact
with people at the self checkout machine...….technology can then be
dehumanizing, it can negate people.... technology can be nihilistic...…
if it separates people from other people...……that is a negative drawback
to technology...…. we have seen in the modern world, technology that
separates from each other......drive your car to work or to a shopping center
and see all the single drivers, with no contact with each other...
they have their radio's and cd players up loud to create some sort
of contact with other human beings.... ever drive without a radio
or a cd system?

Now some technology does bring people together... this method I
am using right now, where people from all over the world can read
and comment on what I have written, this form of connection between
social creatures... we aren't isolated if we can communicate with each other...
and the same is true of phones and we can text each other or e-mail each
other.... we can keep in contact with other beings through technology...…

communication technology unites us, whereas a lot of technology
divides us... atomizes us... separates us...…….

if we are to become human, fully human, we must come
to grips with technology and its influences on our lives.....

how does technology influences and change your life?
how does technology change who you are?
can you see yourself without technology?

what is the role of technology within the human condition?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7343
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:05 pm

how shall we define or understand the human condition?

humans are transitory/temporary... we exists for a short time and
are gone, individually at least... while society goes on, the human race goes
on, individually I will be gone...….and fairly soon, every single person I
know at this moment will be gone.... transitory/temporary is part of the
human condition...the next aspect of the human condition is our inability
to understand that everything that I do individually, is gone in a short time...
I can do nothing that will last beyond my death....
for example, whatever wealth I might create will not last very far
into the next generation... my daughter isn't getting much money/
if any at all....everything I have done or will do will disappear quickly...

I cannot build anything individually that will last very long...
I cannot build a house or a wall or grow a plant that will last
very long.... very few things that humans have done, has lasted
very long... the pyramids are one of the few things that lasted a long time.....
human being are always recycling...... we build up and tear down
things at an increadible rate...... how long is your dishwasher
going to last? perhaps, if you are lucky, 7 years....and your car?
maybe 12 or 15.... and your house? for many people, the house of
their childhood has already been torn down and rebuilt into something
else.... our lives is transitory, our materials from which we build
our lives is transitory.... I have a book or two from my childhood
and they are falling apart.. soon, they will simply cease to exists...
and that is true of everything we do as humans......
business, houses, couches, TV's, cars, stoves and books...
and yes, us.. we start to fall apart and then we cease to exist.....

what is another fact of the human condition?

that we are social creatures... evolution has made us social in nature...
we cannot exists without other human beings, physically, emotionally,
psychologically, mentally...and this might be the key fact
of the human condition..... we cannot exist without other human beings.....
that might be as close to a factual statement about human beings as
we can reach or get to..... we must engage with other human beings.....

and here lies the heart of the human condition....

we exists with other human beings.... so everything we do, we do
in relationship to or an engagement with other human beings....

so, if I engage with a private attempt to become a better person,
to discover who Kropotkin is, it is still done within the context
of my engagement with other human beings....
I cannot become or know if I become a "better" human being without
some engagement with other human beings....

the declaration of Independence begins with the often quoted
statement...

"when in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people"

when in the course of events, one people.... not one individual, but we
exists as a people.. not as one, or a few, or as a group, but as a people....
collectively...… when we think about society or the state or the tribe,
it is with the many, the masses, the multitude...…..

we engage with people, more then one, in games, politically,
scientifically, in bars and restaurants, we seek each other out..
walking the streets to see and be seen... the human condition is
one we share with others...…

that is an essential fact which we must, must factor in everything
we do and think about....

so when we think about bettering our selves, it is within the group context,
within our social behavior we must improve ourselves...….

we learn to better ourselves in a social context...… so, when I say,
I want to become a better person, it is within a group context,
socially, as part of the social construct of being part of a group
that I am bettering myself...….

our engagement with bettering ourselves comes within a social context....

to become a better person means to become a better person
within a social, group context.... to become a better human being requires
us to work within the many, not just the one, me...….

as our engagement with becoming human, all too human, requires
us to become better human beings within the social context
that is being human...… we don't exist alone, separate, apart
from other human beings... we must think in terms
of our engagement with other human beings, so every theory
and every fact and every understanding we have of who we are,
begins with the simple acknowledgment of this fact that we are social creatures....
and we can only understand ourselves within this social context.....

let us say, I am sent unto an island like Robinson Crusoe.. alone, separate,
apart.... the things that we humans engage with no longer apply to me....
alone I have no need of politics, morality, philosophy, history, ethics,
economics, psychology, sociology.... alone without love or hope or
possibilities..... there is no ambiguity because there is no possibilities
being alone like this...…. all human context, all of the human condition
exists within our engagement with other human beings...….

so when we work to better ourselves, it is done within a social context...
we are bettering ourselves to work better within that human context....
I am a better person because and only if, I better myself in regards to
the social nature that is being human.....

to become a better person means we function better within
our social structure.... our understanding of being human can only
exists within a social environment.. with others.....

so, if I were to become a better person, I would learn to
engage with others in a more cooperative manner...

said another way, those people who are difficult because
they are mean or nasty or greedy or self involved, they
need to become better human beings within the group context....
to be a mean person isn't being a better member of the human, social
ideal.... we must judge people in terms of how they exist with others,
how they are social with others, how they interact with others...

for me to become a better person, I must first become a more social person,
a person that is engaged with and part of a group, a society, a species ……

it is this engagement with others, being social that defines us as human beings....

so anti-social, mean, hateful, angry, bitter people are, by being anti-social
are not very good people... we define "good" and "better" within the context
of how do they exists as part of a group, how do they interact socially with others....

so we see technology within our engagement with other human beings...
so we see politics within our engagement with other human beings
and we see philosophy within our engagement with other human beings.....

the word philosophy and the word history both mean inquiry...
and the intent of the inquiry is to use history and philosophy to
discover how we are suppose to engage with other people...
morality is an inquiry into how we act with and interact with
and treat people...… ethics is just what it means to be human with others....

how we are to be social with others.. that is what ethics means..
our engagement in behavior with others...….

ethics has no meaning without other people...….
philosophy has no meaning without other people
history has no meaning without other people...…
morality has no meaning without other people.....

ethical behavior means we treat others with respect
and dignity and kindness..... we treat others the way we want
to be treated... not within nihilism which means we negate
and dehumanize people to achieve our own personal goals....

and that is the point of knowing what nihilism is, the negation
of human beings and their values... for that is not being social,
existing as part of a group....helping the group achieve its goals
for the group goals are more important then achieving individual goals....
why? because we are social creatures... and we exist within a group
or a social context with others......ethics, philosophy, moralities that
help us become better social creatures is of more value then
ethics, philosophy, moralities that doesn't create a social context within
us, about being part of a group...…

everything we do, must be in terms of us being social creatures...
every improvement we make individually, must be done in terms
of us being social creatures.... every act we make must be done in terms
of us being social creatures...so how does the individual as Kierkegaard
would think of it, exists within this group, this social context?

that is the question.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7343
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:34 pm

Good point!


But when push comes to shove , the idea and practice that comes about trying to be a better person, and one that society for it's supposed betterment are not synonymous.
The crowd mentality of terribly depraved populations will grab unto any hint of betterment, any scant and unreal promise.
They seek social inclusion in a wretchedly valueless society, where sharing some hair brained solution harangue by some authority, will clue in how to end personal alienation into sudden social commonality and brotherhood?
Some terrible leaders and monsters can configure from the least expected sources.
It doesent always bide well to escape alienation, for such can produce dire and contrary results to the one thinking promise of engagement for its own sake.
Of course well being depends on normal social intercourse, but not on trying to raise ethical solutions by quick fix ad hoc promoters , selling snake oil on lurid backstreets.
The individual, the realist, historically determined in reasonable expectations , with out excessive jubilance, can form well founded optimism, socializing patterned, onion like levels of realization, where the center is exposed , open , eliciting more tears.
The simile using Robinson Crusoe is fitting, he had to overcome good faith self appraisal, before and during his tenure on an island where Friday came late, as we who toil in a sea of projects, identifying some attributes, denying others vehemently, as if can not accept it singularly, without self blame.
Some people could not accept ship wreck, they'd be more useful on doomed ships, where had they been the captain, even on a titanicallt built , flawed plans, that may have changed the course of history.

The self worth of a humble adept is pre-required in an age of the perilous seas , the source of understood cradle all life had a beginning shot..

There are hero's among us, some bearing heavy loads, of not of their own, as Sysyphus was required, Camus sense of suicide could have been understood within the confines of those turbulent times. Nietzche was German and Camus French, the former romantic more controlled less prone to swings between exuberance and dejection.

Peter forgive the labyrinthine ejection, but needed that to express my overall feeling to sort out balance between belonging, and worn out phrases describing transgrations against the effects of nuisance.
Meno_
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5188
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:02 pm

Meno_ wrote:Good point!

But when push comes to shove , the idea and practice that comes about trying to be a better person, and one that society for it's supposed betterment are not synonymous.
The crowd mentality of terribly depraved populations will grab unto any hint of betterment, any scant and unreal promise.
They seek social inclusion in a wretchedly valueless society, where sharing some hair brained solution harangue by some authority, will clue in how to end personal alienation into sudden social commonality and brotherhood?
Some terrible leaders and monsters can configure from the least expected sources.
It doesent always bide well to escape alienation, for such can produce dire and contrary results to the one thinking promise of engagement for its own sake.
Of course well being depends on normal social intercourse, but not on trying to raise ethical solutions by quick fix ad hoc promoters , selling snake oil on lurid backstreets.
The individual, the realist, historically determined in reasonable expectations , with out excessive jubilance, can form well founded optimism, socializing patterned, onion like levels of realization, where the center is exposed , open , eliciting more tears.
The simile using Robinson Crusoe is fitting, he had to overcome good faith self appraisal, before and during his tenure on an island where Friday came late, as we who toil in a sea of projects, identifying some attributes, denying others vehemently, as if can not accept it singularly, without self blame.
Some people could not accept ship wreck, they'd be more useful on doomed ships, where had they been the captain, even on a titanicallt built , flawed plans, that may have changed the course of history.

The self worth of a humble adept is pre-required in an age of the perilous seas , the source of understood cradle all life had a beginning shot..

There are hero's among us, some bearing heavy loads, of not of their own, as Sysyphus was required, Camus sense of suicide could have been understood within the confines of those turbulent times. Nietzche was German and Camus French, the former romantic more controlled less prone to swings between exuberance and dejection.

Peter forgive the labyrinthine ejection, but needed that to express my overall feeling to sort out balance between belonging, and worn out phrases describing transgrations against the effects of nuisance.



K: no need for forgiveness....you said what you needed to say... that is enough....

as for your very first point, is the point I wish to address....

when push comes to shove, the idea that our attempt to be a better person,
within society should be synonymous..... but there is a caveat....
as we live don't live in a democracy, where the people rule, then
bettering ourselves doesn't matter....because it won't be for us....

recall, I have said that we are connected to all things and we are...

for us to achieve some betterment of ourselves, it must be done for
the betterment of a society that responds to us and is a part of us...
if government isn't of the people, for the people, by the people, it
has no interest in the welfare of the people outside of treating
people as cattle, as an means to something else... and we can still reach
the betterment of ourselves but it is done in our name, not in the societies
name and not in the government name... we must understand that
government is a tool and that tool must be in the hands of the people
whose lives are affected by that tool....... the power resides in the hands
of the people because it is the people who work, live and die within that
system..... this defense of democracy exists only because there hasn't
been a solid defense of democracy... the majority of the people....
that has been lacking... a solid, defensible argument for the rights of
the people to govern... not a monarchy, not representative democracy which
isn't either, and certainly not dictatorships or autocracy or an oligarchy....
or as I have called this government of America, an corporatocracy...….

I have no wish to engage with a government that doesn't care about me,
that doesn't listen to me, that doesn't invest in me or doesn't
obey me...………….

this concept of improving ourselves must come with a government of the
people, for the people, by the people...for why would we engage in our own
personal improvement if we don't benefit from it somehow?
and an indifferent government that only engages for it masters, be it
an oligarchy or an autocracy or a corporatocracy.....
has no interest for me and will not receive any consent from me.....

we engage in our own personal improvement if, if we can gain some benefit
from it, for we are social creatures....and government is a part of that
evolutionary social system...…. as is culture and society...and our improvement
of our social nature must come with a payoff and that payoff without a government
that represent us isn't much of a payoff...…

to create an example... as I work as a checker in a large grocery chain....
we are the highest paid employees because if you pay checkers shit,
they are far more likely to steal or rip you off..... they pay us well
from self preservation rather then some enlighten thinking...
anyway, we are treated so badly by this corporation, that any
help that we give to the corporation is done so reluctantly because if
we help the company make any extra money, we don't benefit in any way,
shape or form.... and it almost always in some fashion backfires on us...
I have help my store in some fashion several times and gotten screwed
every single time.... once getting written up for helping the store out....
if one is punished for helping, then people get very reluctant in helping out....

the same goes for helping out a government that will simply use that event
to screw you.... you get very reluctant to help out...………

that is the nature of people... pure, unadulterated acts of kindness
done because they are good is quite often punished in some fashion...

once I found a book in the library that had pornographic pictures in it,
I turned it in and was accused of being the pervert who put the pictures in the book
I did a good deed and was punished, I am sure you have similar stories of being
punished for doing a good deed....

that punishment makes one being reluctant to engage in practicing good deeds....

anyway, government of the people, for the people, by the people is
the form of government that is a social form of government that
I can take some form of pleasure helping because in the end, I will
benefit from my actions whereas in another form of government, I
won't be rewarded because that government isn't about the people...
it is about whomever controls it, be it monarchy or dictatorship or
autocracy..... we the people don't benefit from those forms of government....
and thus we should improve ourselves for a government that is about us
and that form is democracy.....pure democracy, of the people, for the people,
by the people...……..

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7343
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:15 pm

Ok, but I am much stymied by the very credible theory floated around that democracy will and has always developed into oligarchy.

Which means what? That we must factor this into any credible social theory and work our self through it, and negotiate with it, as the only credible structural efficacy?
Meno_
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5188
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:16 pm

Government of the people, for the people, by the people.....

that is the basic and fundamental idea behind democracy.....

but why democracy? why not monarchy or dictatorship or oligarchy
or an corporatocracy? why should we favor rule by the majority instead
of rule of the group, the few or the one?

let us take corporatocracy for example.... as we have a corporatocracy
in America today, we can see the effects that has on America.....

as with any single issue ruling group, they focus on their agenda,
their religion as it were and the corporatocracy agenda is twofold,
power and money.... they want their agenda to be put first...
where individuals are to be sacrificed to their agenda.... if I were to die at
my check stand, I would be written up for failing to do my job, kicked out of the
way and never, never mentioned again in that store....(we had had employees
die and at no point did management ever acknowledge them being dead.. they may
as well not have existed for all of the notice management gave them)

individual are simply cannon fodder to do their job of making profits,
any other use or value of employees is forbidden.... we have no other value
outside of making the corporation money/profits and if we fail to make profits,
we are discarded like yesterdays newspaper......

that is the agenda of the corporation... to make profits and any other
possibility is negated, denied...….and individuals are sacrifices upon the
alter of profits... and that is the failure of corporatocracy....any other value
outside of profits is forbidden/negated..... values like justice or love or hope
or happiness or joy or honesty or even negative values like anger, hate,
lust are denied because those values interfere with the primary, indeed the
only goal of corporations, which is profits.... and from profits, the accumulation
of money, corporations buy power.... they put congressmen on the payroll and
congressmen get bribes of millions to follow the agenda of the corporation,
thus we have our corporatocracy.... government of the corporation....
fueled by the profits created upon the work of the workers....

thus we can see the reason we cannot have single issue political systems...
we cannot have a corporatocracy because their single issue, that of profits,
that of putting their agenda ahead of all other issues.... with every problem,
they measure the solution in terms of profits, how much money will it cost them...
instead of seeking a solution that makes sense or is the right solution, the
single issue political system see's everything in terms of their particular
agenda, that of profits for the corporation/corporatocracy... all issues
solutions are seen in terms of profits and losses.....

we see that in most cases, the corporatocracy and other such systems view
every issue in terms of their own particular agenda... for example,
a dictatorship see's every issue in terms of that dictatorship being able
to hold, keep, maintain power in whatever fashion necessary.....
that is the agenda of a dictatorship, to keep and hold power as long
as possible....every single issue is seen in term of holding
and maintaining power..... single issue politics just like
the corporatocracy, and most political systems engage in single
issue agenda's.... oligarchy, communism as practice by Lenin and Stalin
which was really just about a dictatorship and not communism....

theocracy which is government of the religious, for the religious, by
the religious and the agenda is very similar to that of communism...
by which the religious use religion to hold power and to keep power
but, the real agenda is holding power, not the religious aspect, but
holding power... theocracies are about power, not about religions...
and that is their agenda, power, holding it, maintaining it...…

as with most political systems, the objective is usually about keeping
and maintaining power.. an autocracy is the same as is totalitarianism
as is authoritarianism as is the absolute monarch... to hold and keep power...
that is the political objective of those political systems.. so any issue is seen
in terms of how to hold and keep power, not in terms of solving that
problem with an eye to helping people... the single issue political system
only concern is with their agenda, not a solution that benefits people
and that is the reason why we cannot have those systems to be
our political systems..... …..

so off the bat we reject those single issue political systems such
as autocracy or totalitarianism, military dictatorships and plain old
dictatorships and absolute monarchies....and of course we reject
corporatocracy and theocracy and oligarchy as being single issue political systems....

so by process of elimination, we find ourselves with only a handful of
possibilities in political systems, one of which is communism as practice
as communism, not as Stalin used communism to keep his dictatorship...
and we have democracy.. parliamentary democracy and constitutional
monarchy...along with representative democracy and direct democracy
as well as a republic...now let us begin with the trickiest one,
the republic....in the readings I have done said, "in theory, a
republic is a political system in which he government remains "mostly"
subject to those governed" in theory.... I would rather have facts
in this matter then "in theory"... the United States is often considered to
be a "republic".... I think the word is rather vague and doesn't really tell
us anything about the political system in question....so we reject
the word republic because it doesn't seem to mean anything....

so we are left with just a few choices, mostly with the word democracy
in the title....we have seen how with money corporations have corrupted
representative democracies... America is no longer a representative
democracy because our representatives no longer work for their
constituents, those who voted for them. The representatives work for
the highest bidder for their votes... if a congressman gets bribes of 10 million,
called campaign donations, they no longer work for their constituents,
they are employees of that company that has paid them 10 million dollars...

and we can eliminate various types of government that has any type
of representatives because the representatives can be bribed and thus
no longer work for those who voted for them.....

thus we are left with very few choices....

constitutional monarchy and direct democracy seems to be left....

we cannot trust any type of political system that has voting being
a requirement because we cannot trust or depend upon those we vote
for to actually work on our behalf because they can and often are
corrupted by money to work on behalf of special interests and the
wealthy/corporations......and not work for those who voted for
and paid for the representative to work for us, the citizen....
and given the last election, we can see how outside interest
interfere with our election, giving us the most corrupt
and inadequate, ineffective administration we have ever had
in America...…...

and we are left with democracy...
and here I must take a break...

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7343
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:46 pm

after some trial and tribulations, I am back....

this question of what political system must first start with
an understanding of human beings.....

we are social creatures... we must engage with each other in some
fashion... we cannot exist alone or apart or separate...….
either socially, emotionally or politically.....

we need each other.... so our understanding of politics begins there..

so we eliminate such political theories as anarchism and libertarianism...
as they don't answer the social aspect in a way that human beings needs....

we are also human beings which means we engage in our possibilities,
possibilities such as given in freedom and choice....
so our political system must have choice as a central
component of it... thus such systems as in totalitariansims or
authoritarism or dictatorship, any systems that don't have
freedom of choice a a central component is not going to work....
which also leaves out such political systems as in oligarchy
and corporatocracy and autocracy and absolute monarchy...
these political systems don't have choice or freedom as
their central basis......

in such political systems as in theocracy, choice is also not allowed
and thus is not going to work for human beings....

we also note that part of justice is equality and in most of these political
systems, equality isn't part of their systems and thus we cannot accept
them.....so we have as a working defination of a political system
that we can accept must include being able to explore our possibilties
which means freedom of choice and being social creatures, this means
we must engage with each other socially and politically....choices
must be made with all of us involved, not just the few.....
because in any social system, we must include everyone or
what happens is the modern disease which is alienation and
disconnection from society... we must include everybody
or people become alienated from themselves and society....
we don't have to force people to participate but we must
allow them the choice to participate without any
prior conditions.....this limits us to basically democracy..
or what we might call representative democracy which as I
have explained isn't representative nor is it democracy...

we have seen representative democracy be hijacked by outside forces like
special interest and corporations that by bribes has placed
our representatives as employees of the corporation....
when representatives are given millions in bribes in the form
of campaign contributions, that is basically buying the representatives....
work for us and get millions of dollars or work for the people who elected you
and get a paltry 180,000 dollars a year...…. ummm, tough choice...

no, the only possibility to recover our country from those forces who
are attempting to steal it is by direct democracy.... we can no longer
trust elections as several elections have been stolen in my lifetime....
1960 and 1968 as well as 2000 and most likely 2004 as well as 2016....
we cannot afford to allows elections to be stolen because that
doesn't allow the people a choice, a free and open choice to
pick the person who they want to guide them..... we cannot
trust elections because they can be hacked and overwhelmed
by special interest and corporations and outside interest like
Russia....now we must depend upon our own choices and our
own decisions to keep within our given parameters of choice,
freedom, social groups and abilities.....

we are left with direct democracy because every other choice
leaves us without certain possibilities that we as human beings
must engage with, to be human beings....

to be continued...

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7343
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:35 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:

"if it separates people from other people...……that is a negative drawback
to technology...…. we have"


There was a drive to reboot grassroots involvement, I think it was a president's wife, Ms. Bush, but it didn't pan out , but that kind of participation could be a key.
Meno_
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5188
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:01 am

one of the founding fathers big issues was with what they
called the "mob" which is a wealthy person issue...
only those with money, power would be afraid of the masses,
the "mob"...…because they were afraid of the "uneducated, illiterate,
mass of people who didn't look like them or vote like them or
had the same beliefs as the white, property owning, or had different
religious beliefs then the men that wrote the constitution....

it was fear that drove a good deal of what is in the constitution...
fear of others that are different and thus we have the bias against
majority voting.. .which is why we have the worst idea in American political
history, the electoral collage...this was to prevent the "masses" from having
total power... it keep power in the hands of the powerful and wealthy of
america..........

we can see the danger from this in the fact that two of the worst presidents
in American history didn't win the popular vote, IQ45 lost the popular vote
by almost 3 million votes and most likely bush Jr lost the popular vote....

one of the arguments against direct voting for the president is the argument
that the masses, the people, isn't educated enough, isn't aware enough, is
to aliented from the political process to allow them to vote....
but I say that people can know what is in their best interest even
without an collage degree and people are aliented, disconnected from
the political process because the people believe, correctly,
that their vote doesn't count because of stolen elections and because
of the fact that the people they vote for, work for the highest bidder...

we are alienated, disconnected from the political process because we
don't have a say in what is happening... the courts decide our fate without
any say from those who are directly affected and everyone from president
down just simply ignores what the masses, what the people want
to answer to their true masters, those special interest and wealthy/corporations
that have bought them...…….. we can answer this by taking the power back...
we can eliminating the electoral collage and making the president directly
answerable to us.. this also means we must be able to recall an president
and, and members of congress that disregard our wishes....

now some think that we aren't smart enough or wise enough to make
our own choices, we are simply, the masses, with all connotations that,
the masses, imply..... but the fact is all we need to do is to become aware
of our world... we must reject our own personal self involvement which is
the standard operating process of most American's and become aware,
involved with the choices that affect us collectively..... we must have a
say what happens collectively as much as we have choices personally....

now one might say, the peasants that is the masses, will make mistakes,
as if everyone else doesn't make mistakes...… the mistake of
the most inept, incompetent and corrupt administration in American history lies
with the fact that the 2016 election was stolen and if we had been more
aware of that possibility, it might not have happened...…..it is because of the
electoral collage that we got stuck with the disaster that is IQ45...….
and because of the fact we cannot affect what dangerous and unprecedented
reaching of dictatorship we have ever seen in America and there isn't a dam
thing we can do about it.... and that is wrong..... if it affects us, we should
have a say about it, we do personally and we should politically, collectively.....

this rise of the dictatorship that is IQ45 is due to both the complete
buying of the American congress by special interest and corporations
which prevent congress from doing their duties as specified in the constitution...
and the inability of the American people to create any change because of
the political system as is.... we can only temper a president with
congress and if congress is bought to ignore a president crimes,
not only impeachable crimes but criminal crimes which demands
he to be brought to justice... a president is not above the law..
if I am held accountable for actions taken, then the president must
held accountable for actions taken... justice is the demand for
equality...everyone is treated equally in the eyes of justice..
for if some are treated unequally because of title or wealth or
position, then we don't have justice in this country.. simple as that....

so, if we are to remake America to be something special and a true
city on the hill, we must get people to have a say, a direct and vocal
say in matter that directly affect them.....we must remove the electoral
collage and elect the president strictly upon the majority number of votes...

if we are to get people reengaged in the political process, we must
return their voice, we must return the power to the people...
that is the only possibility we have to become something that is truly
democratic...

now many will have and make many arguments against this direct
democracy... but I say unto you... if we don't trust in people
being able to make judgements about their own personal involvement
in the political system, then we don't trust ourselves.....

I for one, am willing to trust the wisdom of the people over any other
type of system because every other political system has such serious flaws as
to be worthless...


let us truly trust people to make their own judgements about what is
best for them... let us let people make their own judgements...

now one may argue that the people may decide to vote for
authoritarnism and dictatorships... yes, yes they may, but if we
give people the authority to correct their mistakes by such acts
as recalling both the president and congress, we can correct such
mistakes......

people will make mistakes but if we can give them to tools to correct
their mistakes and make the right choice, then democracy becomes the
right choice for us as a people, as a species.....

to have a say in what affect you is the very definition of what it
means to be human....let us give that say to the people, the masses....

let us fight for something that gives you direct control over what
affects you politically and economically and socially... our current system
doesn't allow you choice in any of those, politically, economically or socially...

let us take control over our lives by making our political system directly
accountable to us by eliminating representative democracy and making a direct
democracy....


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7343
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby iambiguous » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:43 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
ethics has no meaning without other people...….
philosophy has no meaning without other people
history has no meaning without other people...…
morality has no meaning without other people.....


All I can do when confronted with "general descriptions" such as this is to ask, "what people, in what set of circumstances defending what behaviors...as either ethical or unethical?"

How do we determine what all of these words must mean when it comes down to actually judging the behaviors of others?

Is there one meaning that ranks higher than all the rest?

Peter Kropotkin wrote:and that is the point of knowing what nihilism is, the negation
of human beings and their values...


Sure, there are nihilists who think like this. But other nihilists [like me] are certainly not attempting to negate human beings and their values. Really, what on earth does this even mean...that human beings and values cease to exist?

Instead, nihilists of my ilk suggests that "human beings" can only be understood as particular men and women -- individuals -- acquiring a set of values in a particular historical, cultural and experiential context.

And, then, depending on the actual experiences that they have, these values will be shaped and molded [historically, culturally, interpersonally] into conflicting goods. And that philosophers [deontologists or otherwise] seem unable to confront these opposing value judgments and determine once and for all that which all rational and virtuous folks are obligated to believe.

Acknowledging in turn however that philosophers may well in fact some day accomplish this. And then challenging those who insist that -- objectively -- they already have accomplished it. Challenging them to bring their so-called objective values out into the world of particular contexts most will be familiar with.

Then sraight back up into the intellectual stratosphere...the world of words awash in "general descriptions":

Peter Kropotkin wrote:for that is not being social,
existing as part of a group....helping the group achieve its goals
for the group goals are more important then achieving individual goals....
why? because we are social creatures... and we exist within a group
or a social context with others......ethics, philosophy, moralities that
help us become better social creatures is of more value then
ethics, philosophy, moralities that doesn't create a social context within
us, about being part of a group...…


What group? The group that supports Trump's immigration policies? Or the group that opposes them? A group of liberals or a group of conservatives? A group of capitalists or a group of socialists? A group that places the emphasis on "we" or a group that places the emphasis on "I"?

And what specific goals aimed at accomplishing what specific vision of the future? Employing what specific political prejudices and engaging what specific means?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
User avatar
iambiguous
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 31861
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:41 am

because of the ugly work schedule of the last two days, my
day off today was about as unproductive as a day can be....

I tried to write this morning and got nothing, so I tried to
read some books I have been reading and I just couldn't focus...I
was far too tired to even be able to focus on the books....

so, I got down a book I read on occasion when I am unable to
focus... "The Creators" by Daniel Boorstin.... is it some in depth
book? nah, just light weight reading about those who created,
from the Hindus to when the book was written in 1992....

it is about those who are creators of music and painting and statues
and buildings.....those who can create has always obsess me...

my mom said that as a child, I had the least amount of artistic talent
of any of her kids..and she had 5....

it is a loss I quite often regret.... if I could, making music would
be the art I would take up.....I have always been fancinated by the piano....
that would have been my instrument of choice.....

in my life, that is the possibility I most regret.... we have lots of
possibilities, lots of choices... some of our choices are choices we, for
some reason, are unable to fullfill as mine being a police officer because
of my hearing loss or the military.....those possibilities were weren't available
to me... but others have different choices, different possibilities because of
their background and opportunities available to them....
children of wealthy parents have different opportunities available to
them then children of poor parents....

and all of this lead us to one goal or meaning for human beings

the point of, the meaning of being human is to examine, explore,
discover the varied possibilities available to us......

finding and exploring our possibilities in which we can become human

that in a nutshell is the mission statement of being human.....

finding and exploring our possibilities.....

what possibilities do you regret?

what possibilities are you exploring?

what choices have you made today?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7343
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:31 am

when people ask, what do you do on your time off?

and I reply, I study philosophy....

there is a pause and then the next question always is...

"what is the meaning of life"?

we are driven by that question and that is the question that haunts
our nights and fills our bars and is our greatest fear......

"what is the meaning of life?"

to finally to have an answer...

seek out what is your possibilities.... seek out what your choices are
and then act upon them.... the choices, the possibilities are there for the taking...
if we only were able to act upon them.....

ask yourself, I am meant to be.....

and answer that by finding out if that is possible for you....

seek the possibilities inherent in your life...

that is the meaning of life...

and my meaning is to seek the possibilities inherent in my life....

as my possibilities are different then your possibilities, we have
different goals, we make different choices, we can become different
possibilities.... that is the meaning of life.....

seek out that which is possible for you....
and make a choice to gain that which is possible for you....
don't be a victim of circumstances where you have no choice, no
possibilities... even if you are in prison, in solitary confinement which
is the greatest punishment ever created by man... you still have the
choice, the possibility of death... you always have choices... the question
becomes, are you brave enough to live with your choice?

I have on purposely isolated myself, I have made choices...
I am on the hunt to discover the possibilities of finding out, through these
writings, to discover who I am...and what is possible for me...

I have paid the price for my search with loneness and that cost is worth it
to me to engage with myself to discover what is possible for me...…..

I am willing to pay the cost for finding my possibilities...…

are you willing to pay the price for discovering your possibilities?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7343
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby promethean75 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:36 pm

pete, i'm down the street in the science forum trying to figure out this infinity shit. you know anything about this stuff? i could really use a good, lengthy peter monologue on the subject of infinity if you have the time.
promethean75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:10 pm

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:17 pm

promethean75 wrote:pete, i'm down the street in the science forum trying to figure out this infinity shit. you know anything about this stuff? i could really use a good, lengthy peter monologue on the subject of infinity if you have the time.



K: infinity = time.... glad to help.... :lol:

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7343
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:33 pm

…. when the last blade of grass is gone...
and the tree's no longer give us shade....
and all the national parks are turned into amusements parks....
and we have turned the entire world into an unremitting
collage of strip malls and condo's and apartments and office buildings.....
when there is nothing left to house the animals or feed the fish
and there is nothing left of nature anywhere on planet earth....
and as they finally build the last building over vacant land....
those who are standing there will have drowned the earth in metal and steel....

and as they admire their work.....

one of them will wonder...

what can we build over...

what nature can we bury 6 feet under....

and when they realize that there is nothing left...

they gives themselves high fives and applause all around....

"For we have done it. We have buried the world under roads and housing
and office building and shopping malls. There is no nature anywhere.....
we have done it".

indeed, they have done it......

and after all the profits and money has been extracted out of the ground
and all the money taken from the ocean and the sky is empty of birds....

they have done it....

and one of them asks, "Now what?"....

and indeed, after depleting the world of all its resources.. Now what?

what is left to do?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7343
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:24 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:…. when the last blade of grass is gone...
and the tree's no longer give us shade....
and all the national parks are turned into amusements parks....
and we have turned the entire world into an unremitting
collage of strip malls and condo's and apartments and office buildings.....
when there is nothing left to house the animals or feed the fish
and there is nothing left of nature anywhere on planet earth....
and as they finally build the last building over vacant land....
those who are standing there will have drowned the earth in metal and steel....

and as they admire their work.....

one of them will wonder...

what can we build over...

what nature can we bury 6 feet under....

and when they realize that there is nothing left...

they gives themselves high fives and applause all around....

"For we have done it. We have buried the world under roads and housing
and office building and shopping malls. There is no nature anywhere.....
we have done it".

indeed, they have done it......

and after all the profits and money has been extracted out of the ground
and all the money taken from the ocean and the sky is empty of birds....

they have done it....

and one of them asks, "Now what?"....

and indeed, after depleting the world of all its resources.. Now what?

what is left to do?

Kropotkin




Grow up and go into outer space to start up new colonies and so it all over again, until they can do it to the whole universe, except......yes.... except....the universe is too large , it is in -fi- ni-te!

Now what?
Meno_
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5188
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:49 pm

Meno_ wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:…. when the last blade of grass is gone...
and the tree's no longer give us shade....
and all the national parks are turned into amusements parks....
and we have turned the entire world into an unremitting
collage of strip malls and condo's and apartments and office buildings.....
when there is nothing left to house the animals or feed the fish
and there is nothing left of nature anywhere on planet earth....
and as they finally build the last building over vacant land....
those who are standing there will have drowned the earth in metal and steel....

and as they admire their work.....

one of them will wonder...

what can we build over...

what nature can we bury 6 feet under....

and when they realize that there is nothing left...

they gives themselves high fives and applause all around....

"For we have done it. We have buried the world under roads and housing
and office building and shopping malls. There is no nature anywhere.....
we have done it".

indeed, they have done it......

and after all the profits and money has been extracted out of the ground
and all the money taken from the ocean and the sky is empty of birds....

they have done it....

and one of them asks, "Now what?"....

and indeed, after depleting the world of all its resources.. Now what?

what is left to do?

Kropotkin




Grow up and go into outer space to start up new colonies and so it all over again, until they can do it to the whole universe, except......yes.... except....the universe is too large , it is in -fi- ni-te!

Now what?


K: you have engage with the usual answer people give which is magical thinking....
instead of engaging with the problem, you hoped to be saved by some external
forces like god, science, technology, religion, or flying into outer space.....

that is not facing the problem, that is hoping we will be saved by Deus ex machina,
which means, "god from the machine" a unsolvable plot devise out of nowhere that
somehow resolved magically our situation.... instead of our solving the problem
of our destroying planet earth, somehow we will be saved magically, deus ex machina......

my entire point of possibilities is to engage us in intentionally... which is the
act of us making conscious decisions to engage on purpose....we humans react
far to passively to our fate.....instead of making conscious decisions about
our possibilities....we must actively engage in our possibilities....

in my search for my possibilities, I must engage actively with those possibilities...
I must intentionally engage with who I am and what is possible for me.....

so instead of waiting for the future to somehow magically save us from
destroying the planet, we engage consciously in our attempts to save us
from destroying planet earth.....

but how do we know what actions we should make?

the answer lies in historical thinking.... we don't make
choices in the here and now, we think about past, present
and future.....we are accountable to the future...
we don't think so because of our magical thinking,
but we are.....just as my parents are accountable for their
actions in making my future possible, we are accountable
to our actions to make our children future better.....

now most people deny this, but why?

people don't want to be held accountable...
they want to act without consequences, without accountability...
they want to be able to have their actions without being held
accountable for those actions.....

but we are judged by the future.. either for our actions or
for our inactions..... a good example of this is

dang gotta leave for a few minutes...

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7343
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby promethean75 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:12 pm

dang Pete you just gonna bail like that?

You tell them they can wait. This is more important.
promethean75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:10 pm

Previous

Return to Philosophy



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users