a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:37 pm

So Kierkegaard saw three possibilities for human existence,
the aesthetic, the ethical and the religious....

these three ways of existence, of possibilities are K. way
of understanding what is possible for human beings...

in reality, we are a combination of all three and in other ways,
we are none of these possibilities.....

are there are other possibilities as example of being human?

yes, look at the night sky and count the stars....

and as many stars as you can count, lies the possibilities
for human engagement, for human possibilities of the ways
and means for human beings to engage in the world.......

and how do we decide between all these choices?

for some, we decide by the values we choose......

the values determine what possibilites exists for us......

so, what is possible for you?

your values decide your possibilities....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:11 pm

it is not enough to have the courage of our convictions,
we must have the courage for an attack upon our convictions..

Nietzsche....

LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP.....

SEND HER BACK, SEND HER BACK, SEND HER BACK...….

we must have the courage for an attack upon our conviction....

so, when they shout... SEND HER BACK, SEND HER BACK, SEND HER BACK....

where is the courage for an attack upon their convictions?

LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP.......

they don't even have the courage of their convictions......

for racism and sexism and homophobic remarks don't reveal
one's convictions.... they reveal one's prejudice and one's bias
and one's indoctrinations.... and they are not convictions....

they are the lower instincts of the human being, the animal part
of the human being......for racism and sexism and homophobia
are not convictions.. they are the lower levels of bias and prejudice...
where hate and anger and greed and lust resides.......

LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK, LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK......

they reveal nothing more then ignorance of what it means to be human...
and an inability to become more human because if all you hold true is
bias and prejudice and sexism... you aren't human...you are animal....

you have sunk to the lowest depths of what it means to be human if
all you can shout is.....

LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK, LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK...…

if all your focus is upon the lowest instincts of being human...

so far, you have failed in the basic level of being human....

because being human is compassion and being human is love
and being human is peace and being human is justice
and being human is charity and being human is choice...…

if all you can shout is....

LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK, LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK.....

that is childlike.. and so simple as to insult an 8 year old child.....

to shout....

LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK, LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK....

it isn't intelligent, it isn't Christian, it isn't Buddhist,
it isn't religious, it isn't American, it is the highest level of being an animal,
the lowest level of being human...….

it isn't even on level of having convictions.. convictions at least have
some adult level of understanding, but to shout one's prejudice
and superstitions isn't adult....

the real problem I have isn't the ignorance of these people, but
the silence that has followed......when listening to criticism of
these ignorant people, one only hears crickets...….

that bothers me more then actual fear and ignorance....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:02 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:it is not enough to have the courage of our convictions,
we must have the courage for an attack upon our convictions..

Nietzsche....

LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP.....

SEND HER BACK, SEND HER BACK, SEND HER BACK...….

we must have the courage for an attack upon our conviction....

so, when they shout... SEND HER BACK, SEND HER BACK, SEND HER BACK....

where is the courage for an attack upon their convictions?

LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP, LOCK HER UP.......

they don't even have the courage of their convictions......

for racism and sexism and homophobic remarks don't reveal
one's convictions.... they reveal one's prejudice and one's bias
and one's indoctrinations.... and they are not convictions....

they are the lower instincts of the human being, the animal part
of the human being......for racism and sexism and homophobia
are not convictions.. they are the lower levels of bias and prejudice...
where hate and anger and greed and lust resides.......

LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK, LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK......

they reveal nothing more then ignorance of what it means to be human...
and an inability to become more human because if all you hold true is
bias and prejudice and sexism... you aren't human...you are animal....

you have sunk to the lowest depths of what it means to be human if
all you can shout is.....

LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK, LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK...…

if all your focus is upon the lowest instincts of being human...

so far, you have failed in the basic level of being human....

because being human is compassion and being human is love
and being human is peace and being human is justice
and being human is charity and being human is choice...…

if all you can shout is....

LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK, LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK.....

that is childlike.. and so simple as to insult an 8 year old child.....

to shout....

LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK, LOCK HER UP, SEND HER BACK....

it isn't intelligent, it isn't Christian, it isn't Buddhist,
it isn't religious, it isn't American, it is the highest level of being an animal,
the lowest level of being human...….

it isn't even on level of having convictions.. convictions at least have
some adult level of understanding, but to shout one's prejudice
and superstitions isn't adult....

the real problem I have isn't the ignorance of these people, but
the silence that has followed......when listening to criticism of
these ignorant people, one only hears crickets...….

that bothers me more then actual fear and ignorance....

Kropotkin



and what does the above post have to do with the three
Kierkegaard spheres of life, the aesthetic, the ethical
and the religious?

why everything......

to shout LOCK HER UP and SEND HER BACK is a choice,
an ignorant choice, but nevertheless, a choice.....
a choice not to pursue the aesthestic or the ethical or
the religious, but a choice to pursue ignorance and
prejudice and bigotry...the instinctual level of human existence....

a choice to engage in the aesthestic or the ethical or
the religous means we reject such calls of prejudice those chants
display...

but one might argue that the chants reflect the will of the people
to follow the law.... a dubious argument at best....
because to proclaim the law as a sign of morality,
(and it is morality we are talking about, not the law)
if we use the law as morality, then we can say that legally,
legally, we can defend slavery and concentration camps, both
here and in Germany in the 1930's....if we mean legally, we
can defend Jim Crow laws and we can defend women as property,
and we can defend torture and we can defend the restriction of rights, property,
and freedom for white men only.....

the law is not the place to expect morality... it is simply
a tool to maintain property and power by those who can afford it....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:55 am

to be a witness unto religion is to bear witness to the
truth of the religion...…..

it is not unlike a witness in court who by their testimony,
give truth to a court case.....

I saw, bear witness, to the fact that John Doe shot
Soren Kierkegaard dead in the morning of July 19, 2019...

however to "witness" something I must have direct knowledge
of the act in question......I cannot bear witness to an action
to which I did not directly see, hear, taste, touch or smell.....

Thus I cannot bear witness to the death of JFK or MLK as
I didn't personally witness it...

now, the question exists in which how can people bear witness to
the acts of god/Jesus?

Many people attempt to be witnesses for god when in fact they haven't witness
any acts or actions of god...……

to bear witness means to become personally involved...….

I can bear witness to the conditions to which I personally can vouch for....

so, K. attempts to bear witness for Christianity which he can see, hear, touch,
taste or smell.... but he cannot, cannot bear witness for any type of being referred
to as god... as he hasn't any personal, bearing witness to god...…

for K. the question was simple, how to be a Christian in Christianity?

for K. Christianity had lost touch with what made it so appealing
and spiritual..... Christianity was one of the many mass movements
in which people were instructed how to be Christian......they were told
what it meant to be Christian and what was the proper response they
were to make when it became time to bear witness to Christianity...…

to be a modern man means one is classified, timed, weighed, measured,
numbered... turned into a commodity..... and K. saw that Christianity
was no different....the mass man, the modern man is force fed
with ism's and ideologies and biases and superstitions and habits,
or said another way, modern man was programed...…….

and it was no different in Christianity...….
and this is most notable where the state runs
the religion, imaginatively called, the state religion....

In Europe, it is quite common that the state runs religions
as part of the state organizations like the IRS. or the State Department....
and it is in Europe, where religions are dying... connection?

I would say yes, when the state runs the religion, it takes the faith
out of religion.... it is no longer about bearing witness and it is about
performing the state mandated functions of a church.....

mass produced faith no longer brings about mass produced faith....
faith is individual and personal and it bear witness to something.....

but, but what happens if there is no god that allows one to bear witness to?

what if there is no such thing as Jesus.... how do we bear witness to something
that doesn't exists?

and here is where modern religions has floundered for decades if not for centuries.....

we want to believe but what if there is nothing to believe in?

in our pursuit to create the mass produced man, we have left man without
anything to believe in...for what can you believe in if everything around you
is fake, mass produced, obsolete within months if not weeks or days...…

what can we believe in if we don't have anything to believe in?

some might say, believe in god/jesus… but that ship has sailed.....
and some might say, believe in ism's and ideologies like capitalism and
communism and Catholicism.. but those ships have sailed....
some might say, believe in man, but how can we believe if
we don't even know what exactly we are believing in?

what is this creature known as man?

can any of you say for certain, what is man?

and how can you believe in man if you don't even know
what man is?

so I ask you, what can you bear witness to?
what can you state is the truth about man?

what do you have direct knowledge of, to be able to bear witness to?

so, friend, what do you bear witness to?

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:14 pm

Peter, good analysis on the side of witnessing a drama or a tragic comedy of huge proportions.

In Christian terms . the life of Jesus sets a good example by which such went down two fold.

In his trial, the old forms of trials can still be recalled, the traditional witnesses for his defense and prosecution. It is written that power corrupts. What were the power a which did infringe on certain , even then existing eifjys by which both could testify to?

Now an innocent man , a good man, can stand on his own without witness, in fact , too many times, moat times , good man are poor in spirit, and can not claim any witnesses against procedural efforts to indict him.
He has long ago been abandoned for his poverty, his self constructed poverty, and it bore him down nevertheless, so that any possible witnesses he may have called upon, abandoned him out of fear. Among the disciples, the one moat loved, as well.

He had to , as now, the good man to St and upon the only witness he ever needs, that for which the devil himself , standing on a high hill to barter away his soul for any worldly values imaginable.
He could not. Ah yes the temptation was near unimaginably and overwhelmingly near impossible to deal with, the devil is a.clever bargainer, they are ones very hard not to deal with . pushed to the limit when legitimate bribes expire, come the volumes of ever increasing threats to demean the value of self sacrifice.

No Peter , You are right, the good man will, if ever be is able to overcome that force, which is invaluable, beyond the last vestiges of good and evil, to love even that which persecutes the supreme value that can not be ,
...on yes even that force at the last stand by the last man, try, This Man, to simulate in his desperate effort to buy IT from him like a commodity, and if IT can't be bought then it will be attempted to be stolen.


So who can bear witness?

Why anyone calling upon that which is it's own guarantee, who is who He is, and then the deal will defeat him who calls the debt, for a deal that was shady to begin with, a deal using the child in man, a child who attempted the task of David, a child against the goliathan evil of barbarous misgivings.

No this time though , who will know the day of his coming, he will work it differently, he will overcome those )who here with have abandoned him with misgivings.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:14 am

as I think about it... who among you has tried to lead an ethical life,
who among you has tried to lead an aesthetic life and who among you
has tried to lead an religious life?

now some foolish ones might jump up right now and say, yes, yes
I am trying to lead an religious life...…….

and you are lying to me and if you actually believe it, you are lying to
yourself...….

saying one is a Christian doesn't make one a Christian...…

have you actually acted as Jesus called for?

have you understood what the parable of the Good Samaritan actually means?

if you had understood it, truly understood it, then you wouldn't be
defending IQ45 and his assault upon Christian values...…

it doesn't matter if we are children of Mexico or children of
Spain or children of Syria.... according to Jesus, we are all children
of god... and if you are Christian, then you see all human beings as
children of god.. regardless of where they came from....

it doesn't matter if they broke the law entering this country and
and it doesn't matter if they love people you don't approve of
and it doesn't matter if they worship different gods then you do
and it doesn't matter if their skin color is different then yours...…

if you attack immigrants as law breakers, then you have missed the
entire point of what jesus said...…. you are not Christian.....
simple as that... lie to yourself as much as you want, but
the truth is plain to see.... if you hold being an American higher
then being a child of god, then you are not a Christian
and if you want to "SEND HER BACK", you are not a Christian,
you aren't even a good American...……

we must ask ourselves, what is our priority?

Do we stand with those who proclaim that "America is white"
and deny our humanity and our Christianity....

do you call those from Mexico as "subhuman" then you are not
a Christian and you deny the higher calling...…..

you must ask yourself, in what order do I live in?

for example, do you think of yourself as American first?
or do you think of yourself as white first?
or do you think of yourself as Jewish or Christian or Islamic first?

when I try to prioritize my own understanding of who I am, what do
I list first, American, white, Californian, male, heterosexual,
atheist, worker, consumer, honest, just, loving, SF giant fan,
baseball fan, a thinker, a reader, owner of 5000 books,
father, son, brother, husband, checker,

I can list hundreds if not thousands of ways to identify myself to others
and to myself... but which identity do I list first?
which of my many identities do I consider to my first, primary
identity?

for at various times, I am one or all of these roles. I can be
a husband and a checker at the same time, so what role, do
I prioritize as being my primary role, my primary role in life?

do I at any point think about myself as leading an aesthetic life?
or do I see myself leading an ethical life or perhaps a religious life?

no, for those aren't roles, they are a way of life, not just a role.....
and that is missing, I am not supposed to be my roles, I am supposed
to be involved in a way of life.. for I won't always be a store checker,
but I can lead an ethical life no matter what else happens...
to lead an ethical life means it doesn't matter if I am an American
or white or heterosexual or a father or a son... leading an ethical
life means leading an ethical life regardless of what roles I may
be playing at the time...…

if I am leading the religious life, then it doesn't matter that I am
American or white or heterosexual or a father or a son, I am devoting
my time to being the best Christian I can be, and that means not
treating people as an means, but treating people as a ends...
as god's children.. all people regardless of who they love and
where they come from and the color of their skin.... for if any of that
bothers you, the color of their skin or where they come from or if
they are immigrants, then you are not a true Christian, you are not
a follower of jesus…….

for jesus it doesn't matter what the color of our skin and it doesn't matter
where we come from and it doesn't matter if we are immigrants,
we are still children of god..... and so if you deny a person due
to such matters, you are not a Christian and you need to stop lying
to yourself that you are a follower of jesus…..

for jesus didn't care about the color of one's skin and he didn't care
about where you came from and it didn't matter if you are an immigrants....

they say, god's love is universal... so why isn't your love universal?

and so I say unto you, you are not a Christian unless your love is
universal...…….

so If you want to live the religious life, then do so, and if
you want to live the ethical life, please by all means do so,
and if you want to live the aesthetic life, do so....

now comes the $64,000 question, are there other options
do live beside the aesthetic, the ethical and the religious?

are we missing some other ways of life, we could be living,
that isn't just about playing the roles of our lives?

as we search into our lives, the lower level, the shallow level is
the roles we play, our being a checker or a husband or a father or a consumer,
but we can find on the next level, our living life ethically,
aesthetically, or religiously? the next step to take is to attempt
to live life by these ways of life...…

and then we reach the next level, which is what is the highest step of life?

we have our roles, then we have our way of life, be it ethical or aesthetic,
or religious, but is there a next possibility?

once we begin to understand our life as a way of life, is there a next step?

I have no proof of it, but I believe that yes, there is something beyond
living life as a way of life, just as I believe that living our life as a way of life,
is the next step beyond the role playing we do...…

living life as a possibility, not as a certainty.....

I do not have precognition into the next step of humanness....
but that is what we must begin to look for, the next step of
possibilities for human beings....beyond our roles and beyond our life
as a way of life, what is the next step?

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:04 pm

I am reading Kierkegaard "concluding unscientific postscript"
and I see a connection between what he says about Christianity
and what we have today in regards to "America"..
and our belief in America......

K. writes about faith and what it means to have faith in Christianity,
and I see us, Americans, having the same "faith" in America that
christians have in Christianity......

let us take christianity first, we see many followers of christ, for that
is what belonging to christianity means, being a follower of christ,
and I see how many proclaim themselves to be christians, follower of
christ, but when I see their actions or more correctly their inactions in
regards to say, the concentrations camps we have and the mistreatment of
illegals in this country, I see how the alleged followers of christ suddenly
abandon their religion, their Christianity, to support IQ45 and is immoral
and unchristian attack upon immigrants and people of color......

If you are a Christian, you are a Christian regardless of political
attacks or agenda going on.... one's Christianity should exist
past any political activity.....

in other words, crimes that violate Christian ethics, should be condemned...
we should be hearing from Christians about the crimes against humanity
committed by IQ45 and his followers from a Christian standpoint....
and we don't......yes, the pope has condemned IQ45 but has the Catholic
church in America followed the pope in condemning the unchristian
treatment of illegals in America..... No, I haven't heard the
catholic church in America as condemning IQ45 in the vocal way
the pope has condemned him...…

nor have I heard the average church goer condemned IQ45 for
his vile and unchristian assault on immigrants and their children.....

in other words, we have a disconnect between the proclaimed
beliefs of the catholic church for example, and the silence
from the church condemning IQ45.... it isn't enough for the pope
to condemned IQ45 but every single church goer must do the same if
they really, truly believe in the gospel as the word of god.....

now we lay this religious part down to attend to the political
aspect of belief...…

just as Americans profess believe in god/Christianity, they profess believe
in the American ideal and what America stands for...……
and yet, when push comes to shove, the average American has
been silent in the crimes against humanity committed by IQ45 and
his followers...… isn't the constitution enough basis for us to condemn
IQ45 just as the bible is enough basis to condemn this most unchristian
like person, IQ45...….

WE HOLD THESE TRUTHS TO BE SELF-EVIDENT THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL....

these words is the heart of the American experience, is the heart of
what it means to be an American and yet, in our dealings with
the immigrants and their children, we no longer believe this to be true....
we accuse the immigrants of crimes and thus give us an excuse to
mistreat and abuse them and create concentration camps...…

but what about the statement that we hold "all men as created equal"
oh, we don't really believe in that because these immigrants aren't
Americans and only Americans deserve to be "created equal"...…

suddenly we are face with the exact same situation that we face religiously
and we now face politically.... we pretend we believe the words, the word of
god and the word of our founding fathers but when push comes to shove,
we abdicate our both the religious and the political beliefs...….

we say we are religious but we certainly don't act religious
and we say we are Americans but we certainly don't act that way...…

our words and our actions no longer meet...…..

we claim to hold the ideals of America has being the highest
political ideals and yet we fail to exist on those ideals...

those vaunted political ideals are really just ideals that
we can take or leave as the situation, as we subjectively
decide upon...…..

you cannot be an American and refuse to believe in or accept the
ideals of what it means to be American....

"we hold this truth to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"

this is the foundation of everything it means to be American
and if we only hold this ideal when it is convenient, then
we are Americans in name only...…we pretend to be Americans....

just as the Christian who fails to act upon the Christian ideal
isn't really a Christian..... it is only by acting upon the ideals of
our faith can we say, "I am a Christian" or "I am an American"

we claim to be Christian and we claim to be American but
we don't act upon those values which define the
Christian or the American...…….

if we are silent during the confinement of human beings, regardless of their
nationality, then we are not Christians...….a confinement due to
bigotry and racism and intolerance..... if we do not condemn the
racism and bigotry and intolerance, we are not Christians
and we are not Americans...… for the words that are the centerpiece
of the American existence is quite clear,

"we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"

bleat all you want about how you are a Christian or bleat
about your patriotism, but if you fail to act Christian
or American, you aren't either...…

the words and the actions must match... and right now, the words of
the Christian/American fail to match the actions of the Christian/American.....

but most Christian and Americans are too smug and secure in their beliefs
to understand what I am saying.... they are convinced of their righteous
and their certainty of going to heaven, both religiously and politically.....

they have no doubt and that is the failure of both the modern Christian
and the modern American.... they have no doubt...…..

the world and America specifically, would be far better off if
we had doubts as to our moral and political positions in the world.....

we are so certain we are right, both religiously and politically...
and that certainty has lead to the crimes against humanity that
we are committing today...…………

is isn't enough to hold to the certainty of our convictions,
we must be strong enough for an attack upon our convictions....

Nietzsche...


Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:58 pm

if we don't practice what we preach, are we what we preach or
are we what we practice?

to be a Christian, one must practice Christian values
and to be a American, one must practice American values
and to be a philosopher, one must practice philosophical values
and to be an Buddhist, one must practice Buddhism values
and to be a …………, one must practice those values.....

if we preach ourselves to be "pro-life" then we must practice values
that are actually pro-life.. not just life until it is born and the all bets
are off..... no, if we are to preach something, we must live it..
we must act upon it, we must engage with what we proclaim ourselves to
be, be it Christian or American or philosophical or French or ………..

too many, far too many proclaim themselves to be of this value until
it is time to practice that value and then silence... no action to practice
that proclaimed value.....

it is this disconnect between our words and our actions that
lead many to proclaim our hypocrisy and if we don't back up our
words with relevant actions, then we are hypocrites....

and in America today, thy name of hypocrisy has a name, it is called
the GOP....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:22 pm

the question of what it means to be human revolves around
the question of human nature...…

what is our nature? we are animal, that much is clear
and we share much with our animal brethren, but
to be human, fully human means we can grow into something
else.....animals are relatively fixed in their possibilities...
a dog cannot act or be anything other then a dog...
a dog is limited by it nature to act only as a dog could...
bark, sniff other dogs buts, walk about in a circle before
crapping, a dog can only be a dog, nothing more....

and being human means we share many animal traits with dogs,
and cats and birds and fish and elephants and...…..

but our programing is far more open then animals are....
we don't see an end to the human possibilities of
what we can do..... we do see a limit to the possibilities
of dogs... dogs cannot rise above their programing and become
something more then a dog..... but we humans, we can rise
above our programing as our programing isn't as set as dogs
or animals programing is...……

we have no limits in our programing... and how is that programing
done? Evolution of course.... we have adapted to the environmental
conditions of the time and in doing so, we have been programed
by generations of human beings evolving into what we call human.....

to be technically correct, we are nature's fuck up..... for all other animals
have limited programing which forces other animals to be limited in
their possibilities.....a dog cannot be anything other then a dog
and a cat cannot be anything else and fish cannot be anything else but
a fish...…

but human beings, we don't have the limits imposed upon our human
nature that other animals have...…

yes, we can be animals and many human beings choose to do just that,
simple animals who stay within their limits...….these humans are concerned
with the simple matters of the lowest level of human existence...
the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy, which is the pursuit of food,
water, shelter, warmth, medical care and education...…

included in this pursuit of the lowest level of being human is the
pursuit of wealth and materialism..... for all these people are concerned
with is the accumulation of goods, wealth..... that is the bottom level
of Maslow hierarchy of goods... for the accumulation of goods cannot
be accounted for in any other level, the accumulation of wealth isn't
about safety/security although many claim it is......you can be safe
and secure without wealth or material goods, in fact, one could make
the argument that by the accumulation of wealth and material goods,
because of the greed and lower level/animal pursuit of goods, people
who accumulate wealth are often less safe and secure.. and they realize that
fact by securing themselves in well fortified mansions in isolated area's..
like Woodside or Atherton California...very wealthy area's near me.....

in fact, the primary concern of wealthy people is to protect their wealth,
keep their wealth safe and almost every action the wealthy take is done
in regards to this basic problem of protecting their wealth...….

one could say that wealth forces on to exist on the primary
level of human existence, which is the lower level of maslow's pyramid...…
one's wealth doesn't allow one to attempt to rise above the pyramid,
into the other facets of human possibilities....if you are so worried about
losing your wealth, how can you begin to rise to the other levels of
human existence? we have the lower two levels which are
physical needs of the lowest level and we have safety needs,
which are the two levels that the wealthy reside on....
the safety needs are personal security, employment,
resources, health and property... we can see how the wealthy
focus there time on the lowest two levels....which doesn't allow
time/energy to focus on the other, higher levels of human possibilities...

the love and belonging level, friendship, intimacy, family, sense of
connection is the third level of human needs...

the fourth level is the esteem level, respect, self-esteem, status, recognition,
strength, freedom....

Maslow considered these levels as deficiency needs, these needs come
from inborn human needs... from the negative needs, not the positive needs.

the fifth level is the first where we no longer operate from
needs and we operate from a place of power, of strength....
and that is the self-actualization level.... which is the desire to become
the most that one can be......

this is where we must go to, all humans must rise to this level, to
become human, fully human......and this level is no longer about us
being just humans/animals....this is the level where we become fully human
and that is why this is the hardest level to reach and why we must make this
level our goal, both personally and collectively...….

because this is the level where we discover what it means to have a "human" nature....

to reach this level means we have risen above our programing which was programed
by the millions of years of evolution...… and that is what it means to be human...
to rise above the animal nature within us and discover the human possibilities
that lie within us.....to rise above our programing and become more then just
human/animal...….

so what does it mean to have "human nature".... it means
we are not limited by our programing and we can rise above
it to become human, fully human....not just to be human/animal...
which is a very low goal to aim for.....

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:26 pm

in this piece, I use Wendy as an example.. an example
of what not to do...….

in another thread, I accused WendyDarling of being
a bad Christian and a terrible human being...

in her response, she responded with, my post confirmed,
the rightness of her cause and that it confirmed that
IQ45 will win in 2020...

so I accuse her of being a bad human being...
and she doesn't care...

I have thought about this for a day or two....

and several thoughts have come to mind...…

(in no particular order)

it never dawned on her that I might be right...
she is so convinced of her convictions, that nothing,
absolutely nothing will be able to convince her that she might be
wrong.... absolutely nothing... she has the strength of her convictions,
but she doesn't have the strength of an attack upon her convictions...
if one has certainty of conviction, by which they have the "TRUTH",
there is no need to search any longer... she has the "TRUTH".....
why entertain any other idea's about life, reality, civilization,
anything... when one holds the truth, there is no room for anything
else...without any doubt, she is convinced that reality is exactly as
she believes it to be... there is no point in thinking otherwise.. because
she has the "TRUTH"....and because of this certainty, this "TRUTH",
then anyone else who does not subscribe to this "TRUTH" is by definition,
wrong......and therein lies the rub...for what is the "TRUTH"?

For Wendy, the truth lies in whatever she thinks is true... there is no
room for dissent or compromise or choice, because there is only the
"TRUTH" and all other thoughts are wrong.....

she is an absolute authoritarian...because the only true thing in the universe
is the "TRUTH" in her head...…….

we see examples of this everyday....IQ45 only believes the "TRUTH" as he see's
it... there is no other "TRUTH"...otherwise known as "fake news"

when one holds the "TRUTH" as IQ45 and Wendy hold it, then it is easy
for them to approve the nihilism of our modern age, it is easy to
accept and in fact, instigate the nihilistic practices that haunt our
age...for if anyone who is an absolute authoritarian, it is a very small
step to concentration camps and Auschwitz and the torture of people
to "protect" America.... as long as the America being protected is
the one in the absolute authoritarian mind.... any deviation from the
"TRUTH" being held in the mind of the absolute authoritarian is
classified as Un-American and unpatriotic and subhuman...…

this mindset of the absolute authoritarian allows one to commit
atrocities against their fellow human being because there is only one
truth and one truth only, the "TRUTH" held in the mind
of the absolute authoritarian.... any other truth is wrong, dangerous,
un-American...…...

the next thought was about how I accused her of being a bad Christian
and a worse human being, didn't care because the confirmed her bias,
her "TRUTH" of herself.. which allowed her to declare victory in the next
election....as if the winning of the next election was the only thing that mattered,
not the idea of her being an bad Christian or a worse human being....

her convictions didn't allow her any room to doubt or to question if
she was in fact right, she had no doubt, no question in her mind
about the rightness of her convictions and thus she was certain
that meant victory in the next election...…

as if winning was the important thing and not the idea that she
might have been a bad Christian or a worse human being...
for her convictions keep that possibility at bay.. it isn't possible
for her to conceive that she might be a bad Christian
or a bad human being... that wasn't possible... and so it was ignored....

the only thing that matter to her, was the certainty of the reelection of
the village idiot.....in the mind of such a person, no growth is possible,
no chance of her learning something, no possibility to contemplate
failure or being wrong.....

now one might say, oh, I am better then her, but I ask, are you?

do you allow your convictions to decided that you have the "TRUTH,
and nothing but the "TRUTH" as a certainty that cannot be shaken?

it isn't that she is just wrong (and she is wrong for reasons to be
revealed soon) but that she is unable to even address the possibility
that she might be wrong....can you address the possibility that
you are wrong? are holding your convictions more important then
discovering the truth? for most people of the absolute authoritarian
mindset, holding the convictions, holding the faith, is more
important then discovering the truth... would you rather hold to
your convictions or do you really, really want to discover the truth?

and what of her convictions of the greatness of IQ45?

what has IQ45 done exactly?

has he done anything positive, or constructive, or has he built
anything? no, what he has done is dismantling, destroying,
negation of fellow human beings, he is nihilism personified...
he hasn't built or created anything positive in his entire presidency...
for to build something, to be creative means you must have idea's,
patience, understanding, and awareness and IQ45 and his followers
lack all of these positive, higher level traits... they live for
the lower, negative traits of human/animal... they exists on
greed, anger, fear, hate, lust and those are the ideals they promote...
nothing that can be built upon and certainly nothing that would contribute
to the well being of individuals or the collective... for destruction is
the only accomplishment of IQ45 and the only possible reason for existence....
and that is why Wendy is wrong.... she actively works for and supports
nihilism which is the negation of human beings and their values...
and that is all IQ45 has to offer, nihilism...….

and that is the reason for the racist, sexist, homophobe.. attack upon
anyone who isn't the "TRUTH" in the minds of the absolute authoritarians.....
and that means they attack anyone who is different from them...from fear
and hate and all the other lower level, animal level of human existence....

such attacks are a form of nihilism.. the negation of human beings
and their values.. if you are sexist or racist or homophobe, you are
being nihilistic... and that is the only value these absolute authoritarians
have to offer, nihilism...…

but we come to the real point of my entire piece.... is it enough to
hold your convictions or must you engage in some practice of
an attack upon your convictions? as of now, Wendy is beyond help,
because of the faith of her convictions, she is lost.....
because of her failure to doubt any aspect of her convictions,
she would suffer a nervous breakdown if she should engage
in a honest understanding of what her values and her absolute
authoritarianism brought about....are you that person whose entire
understanding of self is nihilism, in which the negation of human beings
and their values is the most part of ones understanding of reality?

because she is so far gone and lost in her convictions, there is no
hope in saving her... there can never be any growth, or change
or adaptation or realizing some potential... because of her absolute
faith in her convictions...are you that person?

this isn't about Wendy because she is already lost, but about those
who might learn to save themselves by admitting not certainty
but by admitting doubt into lives....it is only by doubt that
one can grow as a human being and become a better person..
that is no longer a possibility for Wendy, but you can still
become who you are.....

she has no interest in improving herself or in discovering what is the right
thing to do, but you can by engaging in doubt, discover what is the right thing
to do or to improve oneself...……..

the path forward is through doubt, not certainty....

are you moving forward? or are you frozen in place like Wendy because
of her convictions which holds one in place?

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:22 pm

I offer specific scientific proof to support my truth found in the "Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts" thread, all you offer is assumptions and accusations. That's the difference in our truths, mine are backed by observable evidence and yours are not. Prove that any children in the US are starving in concentration camps. Next, prove that I'm a Christian. #-o
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:32 pm

WendyDarling wrote:I offer specific scientific proof to support my truth found in the "Does everyone agree that Trump is nuts" thread, all you offer is assumptions and accusations. That's the difference in our truths, mine are backed by observable evidence and yours are not. Prove that any children in the US are starving in concentration camps. Next, prove that I'm a Christian. #-o



K: and missing the point... again...…

it is not enough for the courage of our convictions..
we must have the courage for an attack upon our convictions....

the battle I have spoke of is not out there... no, the battle
we fight is inside of us....are we going to remain lower level human
beings... living life at an instinctual, human/animal level?

your "TRUTHS" are the simple, socialital truths gained by the
indoctrination of childhood and never challenged.......

at birth, we are indoctrinated by "TRUTHS" that is the "TRUTHS"
that society deems necessary for us to learn to
help maintain society... and that is the point of these indoctrinatated "TRUTHS"
that they exists for help maintain society, not for your benefit, but for society's
benefit.............

that we are indoctrinated with "TRUTHS" such as immigrants are subhuman,,
and they cause crime and other prejudices... among them the notion,
that whites are somehow superior to blacks... that there is no genetic
difference between whites and blacks cannot be disputed.. the "TRUTHS"
we are raised with are biased and superstitious and prejudical......
it is the convictions that we have going into our adulthood......
it is these convictions that we must overcome...….
it is easy to convict people via convictions that we have
held since childhood...…..

for example, the challenge was made to prove that children in
concentration camps are starving...… but that is not the challenge....
the mindset that even allows concentrations camps is the question...
why do you think it is ok to have concentration camps in the first place?
that is a conviction that needs to be challenged and a challenged that
should have been done years ago..... this is the point I am trying to make.....

it is very black and white to say, crime must be punished... but the real
trick is in the definition of crime.... not in the crime itself...…

for example, slavery was the law of the land as was women were the
property of men and Jim Crow laws were legal and interracial marriage
was against the law and a women could not get birth control without,
without the permission of a man, be it her husband or her father...…

laws of the land isn't what make a moral proposition... and this the lesson
needed to be learned.....it is not enough to say, I believe in concentration
camps for children.. which clearly you believe in, but to have an attack
upon your convictions that we need children, children to be in concentration
camps...………

it is the convictions underlying our actions that must be weighed
and measured and understood...…..

it is not enough even to say, I am against concentration camps for children...
we must understand why, why concentration camps for children is wrong....

I have held certain convictions over my lifetime... I have had at least
5 different philosophical positions in my life and I have had
4 distinct and different political positions in my adult life...…
(moderate democrat, very liberal democrat and anarchist and communist/socialist)

but I have been an atheist all my life...but I spend decades searching for god....
in an attempt to understand the truth..... in my favorite book, "Report to Greco"
by Kazantzakis... he too spent his life searching for god... in fact,
the important authors in my life were searching for god...… trying to find the "TRUTH"....

it doesn't matter if the children are eating well enough in their concentration camps
because they shouldn't be in there in the first place.... the search for the reason "why"
underlies or should underlie every action we undertake...

you reside comfortable in your convictions... but you should be in a state of
Zen where your very convictions are in challenge and the mountains are
mobile and the oceans waves are crashing and upended and the riverbank
has overflowed it banks...… and once, once you have overcome, become who
you are, then the mountains become peaceful again and the ocean is quiet
and like a mirror and the river has returned to its banks...…

we Americans are far too comfortable with our superstitions
and prejudices and biases and habits..... we need to challenge
everything it means to be an American.. and we need to challenge
everything it means to be a human being.... we must challenge
our very core beliefs.. in attempting to overcome our childhood
convictions/indoctrinations...…

you need to be asking questions of yourself, am I a Christian?
and what does that mean? am I an American? and what does that mean?
does being an American mean I approve of concentration camps for children?

when you are asking me questions, you are asking the wrong person...
you must be challenging yourself... and few have the courage of
challenging themselves as to their values and convictions...…

it doesn't matter what I believe because I am always in the midst
of challenging my own values and convictions....

what do you value??
what are your convictions?

that is what is at stake...…..

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:19 pm

There are no concentration camps because children are not being starved in camps. That's the point you cannot contend with that you are making up a non-existent reality. I discuss truths based on realities, you discuss delusions, so there is nothing to discuss. Concentration camps don't exist. Please rejoin reality.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:17 pm

WendyDarling wrote:There are no concentration camps because children are not being starved in camps. That's the point you cannot contend with that you are making up a non-existent reality. I discuss truths based on realities, you discuss delusions, so there is nothing to discuss. Concentration camps don't exist. Please rejoin reality.


K: ahhhh, so its when children are being starved that makes it a concentration camp...
nice distinction... I'm sure the Jews agree with you in that very find distinction....

in Germany, the thirties, in CONCENTRATION CAMPS, the Jews were fed, does that mean
they weren't concentration camps?

but it is the mindset of you and people like you that even consider
concentration camps to be acceptable that needs to be questioned.......

now one might argue that the parents were the criminals... then why
is it the children are in the concentration camps? the children did nothing
wrong.. we are punishing children for acts the parents did?
and you don't see a problem with this? that is what needs to
be questioned..... you are far too ok with punishment and
concentration camps, just like millions of other Americans who
haven't given a minute thought to the issue of crime and punishment
and the self awarness of what it really means to be an American that
is so comfortable with such things as concentration camps and torture
and intolerance and bigotry and the clear evidence of IQ45 being
a traitor to America.....you are far too comfortable with all that.....

you are too comfortable with all that because you haven't given it
a moment thought... that is what I am challenging you and others like
you to do.......

Does being an American really mean being comfortable with
concentration camps for children and torture of civilians
and the rampant bigotry of the GOP?

if that is what being an American means, then the thousands who
fought in various wars, fought and died for nothing... because those
weren't the values they were fighting for.. they were fighting
for "liberal" values of "all men are created equal" and the liberal
values that mark the first 200 years of America's existence....

as the environment changes, our values can and must change....
that is part of adapting to an every changing environment and
I get that better then most, but I don't see any particular reason to
change the liberal values that have been the stable of American society
since our founding fathers and what you are clearly in favor of, is
changing those values that being an American means....

values that prevent concentration camps and intolerance and bigotry,
those positive values that don't allow concentration camps and intolerance
and bigotry are what we are fighting about.... what values do you
think makes up America? the values that allow you to think
that it isn't a concentration camp if the children are being fed?

think about it..... my values, my liberal values are far more in tune
with what has been American values over the last 200 years then your
values which has surfaced since 9/11..... values of hate and anger
and bigotry and greed and lust... those un-American values are what
is really at stake here... and you promote those ugly instinctual
lower level values that are the hallmark of human/animal and not
all too human... which is the higher values of positive values
which are love, peace, hope, charity, justice...…

I challenge you to rethink, reevaluate your values that allows
you to think concentration camps are acceptable under ANY
circumstances and allow you to believe in such un-American values
as hate and anger and greed and lust and intolerance and bigotry....

that is the battle, not what is happening in those camps, but
why are there camps in the first place? the mindset that allows
concentration camps...…and bigotry and intolerance and hate
and anger and greed...…...the values you have openly embraced
and promoted......why those values and not the positive values
I have suggested...….

don't look out, look inwards to see what values you really
have and what having those values really mean......

the values we have, have consequences and you don't seem
to be aware of that... it is the values we have that allows
us to make choices that promote American values, not negate
those American values... for that is what you promote, nihilism,
the negation of human beings and their values....

but you can't see that, you only can see that concentration camps
aren't really concentration camps if, if the children are being fed....

a concentration camp is a concentration camp is a concentration
camp regardless if the children are being fed or not....

look inward to see if those values that allow one to
make justifications of concentration camps are really the values
of America and are your values?


Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:21 pm

well, between work and this horrible cold that has totally
destroyed me, its hard getting sick when one is old.....

anyway, back to the grind...…

it seems that Wendy realized that even if the children are fed, it is still
a concentration camp....

and as noted, it is the mindset that allows one to think that a concentration
camp for children is even acceptable.... Nietzsche wrote in 1888 or so, that
the following century was going to be the nihilistic century.. and he was right,
but what does this mean exactly? how was the 20th century a nihilistic century?

as noted, nihilism is the negation of human beings and their values.....
and we saw plenty of that during the 20th century... fascism which
was based upon nihilism, the negation of human beings and their values...
hence the concentration camps.... but the nihilism of that century isn't
dependent upon the concentration camps, no, it is in the very use of words,
when we call people names like nigger, jew, libertard, immigrant,
liberal (in the negative sense of the word, as a pejorative)
then we are practicing nihilism...for we are negating people and their values....

it becomes easy to negate people by calling them names, IQ45 called
Mexicans "subhumans" he is negating them, he is practicing nihilism.....

and the problem arises when we don't even see that by naming people in
such a pejorative manner, we are practicing nihilism...…

that is why we must engage in words with tolerance and justice
and yes, even being political correct..... because if people are conservative,
which I am using as a pejorative, and they don't practice tolerance and
justice and they aren't being political correct, then they are engaging in nihilism...
the negation of human beings and their values...…

our very language betrays our nihilism over the last 120 years.....

if we use language to negate people and their values, then we are actively
engage in nihilism.....and therein lies the history of the 20th century....
an engagement in nihilism......an engagement lead by and driven by
the right, the conservative faction of the earth's population.....

in any county that engages in the nihilism of negating people
and their values by such coded words as minorities, liberal, jews,
communist.... my apologies as I am a liberal, I am not well
verse in the dog whistle vocabulary of the conservative....

this is not an American problem, no, this is an human being problem...
where we negate people and their values by describing people in
pejorative, derogatory, abusive, insulting, contemptuous language...….
we are practicing nihilism...…

and that is why the last 120 years has been a "Nihilistic" age, because
we are practicing nihilism and we don't even know it...……

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:44 pm

as I wrote the very last words of the last post, I wondered, why
this embrace of nihilism?

I suspect and it is only a suspicion, that we have embraced
nihilism because of the failure of the ism's and ideologies
of the last 200 years...… if we cannot embrace something positive,
then we shall embrace something negative.... the key aspect is
the need of human beings to embrace some ism or ideology that
gives them something to believe in... even if that something
is nihilism...…….

the need to believe in something above us, such as god or dialectical
materialism or the necessities of history or capitalism or Catholicism,
or in some biases or prejudices or superstitions...… hence the rise
in conspiracy theories or superstitious things like ghost or mysteries...

we have to believe in something even if that something is negative...
and so the question of our age becomes this, can we create some
ism or ideology that is positive that allows us to believe in it and by doing so,
eliminate the need to believe in such things as conspiracies and god
and ism's and ideologies...…..

the modern age demands that we now find a new ism or ideology
that fulfills the human need for a higher belief...……

that is the modern question.... what ism or ideology can
we find or discover that will fulfill our need for a higher belief system?

and the new belief system must be from our higher level of existence,
not from the lower level, so we are talking about a new ideology
that is about love or peace or justice or hope or charity... not
the lower level ism's of the twentieth century of hate, anger, lust,
greed, the nihilistic age with its nihilistic beliefs...…

we know the way down, we have been there for the last two centuries,
now we must find a way up into the higher level of our being human,
the higher level of human existence by making the higher level of
being human our new ism, our new ideologies.... the ism of love and hope
and justice.... as I write this, it seems to me, that the new ism, the new
ideology should be justice... not the lower level of justice, an eye for an eye,
but a new understanding of justice... justice as equality...…….

that should become the new ism of a new age, justice as equality....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:57 pm

now I can hear the very words of some... why there goes that wacky
liberal engaged in his pursuit of some utopia...

you who opposes me... why are you so invested in the nihilism that
dominates your life? why not engage in something outside of nihilism?

why not engage in something that is positive.....something like pursuit
of justice as equality.....or if you like, find some other positive
aspect to engage in like love or hope or charity....... there are hundreds
of positive possibilities for you to engage in... but you are so invested in
your nihlism that you can't see anything outside of your nihilism.......
your hate, your anger, your greed or your lust or.........

now one might ask, why not engage in god.... why not pursue god?

the problem that has been noted with an engagement with god is the
human tendency to turn our pursuit of god into an "us vs them"....
and that nihilistic tendency to turn anything religious into an "us vs them"
must be rejected..... it is either us or it is nothing.... we cannot survive
as a species if we continually turn everything into an "us vs them"
situation....

either we are one or we are done......

simple as that...

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby iambiguous » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:19 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
you who opposes me... why are you so invested in the nihilism that
dominates your life? why not engage in something outside of nihilism?

why not engage in something that is positive.....something like pursuit
of justice as equality.....or if you like, find some other positive
aspect to engage in like love or hope or charity....... there are hundreds
of positive possibilities for you to engage in... but you are so invested in
your nihlism that you can't see anything outside of your nihilism.......
your hate, your anger, your greed or your lust or.........

Kropotkin



Not sure which particular nihilist you have in mind, of course, but as a nihilist myself, I'd like to respond to this.

First of all, historically, one needs to make an important distinction here between means and ends.

There have been any number of political idealists over the years who, in embracing one or another "kingdom of ends", have managed to rationalize and then to justify it "by any means necessary". This can be embodied in a belief in God or in a political ideology or in a deontological philosophical concoction. One way or another though the end comes to justify the means. And it is in focusing in on the means employed to bring about the end that some come around to identifying any particular religious or political or philosophical movement as "nihilistic".

After all, in employing particular means -- inquisitions, revolutions, jihads, final solutions, genocides, education camps, gulags, etc. -- an enormous amount of human pain and suffering can follow.

But it follows ironically enough because it is believed by these moral and political idealists/objectivists that they and they alone have discovered the one and the only truly rational and virtuous set of commandments.

Thou shalt do only what "one of us" have determined is "the right thing to do".

So, then it comes down to any particular context involving any particular conflicting behaviors, in which folks like you and Wendy insist that "engaging in something positive" is to think and feel and say and do the things that you do.

Again, it only depends on how far, given a particular context, you have come to believe that others are in fact obligated to share your own political values if they wish to be thought of as reasonable and ethical human beings.

Also, on the more constructive side, nihilism can be used to advocate moderation, negotiation and compromise in the pursuit of legal prescriptions and proscriptions. The pursuit of rewards and punishments. Democracy and the rule of law revolve precisely around the assumption that dog-eat-dog survival of the fittest [might makes right] and philosopher-kings [right makes might] may not be the right way to go.

Well, taking into account all that stuff from Marx and Engels of course.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Meno_ » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:42 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:
you who opposes me... why are you so invested in the nihilism that
dominates your life? why not engage in something outside of nihilism?

why not engage in something that is positive.....something like pursuit
of justice as equality.....or if you like, find some other positive
aspect to engage in like love or hope or charity....... there are hundreds
of positive possibilities for you to engage in... but you are so invested in
your nihlism that you can't see anything outside of your nihilism.......
your hate, your anger, your greed or your lust or.........

Kropotkin



Not sure which particular nihilist you have in mind, of course, but as a nihilist myself, I'd like to respond to this.

First of all, historically, one needs to make an important distinction here between means and ends.

There have been any number of political idealists over the years who, in embracing one or another "kingdom of ends", have managed to rationalize and then to justify it "by any means necessary". This can be embodied in a belief in God or in a political ideology or in a deontological philosophical concoction. One way or another though the end comes to justify the means. And it is in focusing in on the means employed to bring about the end that some come around to identifying any particular religious or political or philosophical movement as "nihilistic".

After all, in employing particular means -- inquisitions, revolutions, jihads, final solutions, genocides, education camps, gulags, etc. -- an enormous amount of human pain and suffering can follow.

But it follows ironically enough because it is believed by these moral and political idealists/objectivists that they and they alone have discovered the one and the only truly rational and virtuous set of commandments.

Thou shalt do only what "one of us" have determined is "the right thing to do".

So, then it comes down to any particular context involving any particular conflicting behaviors, in which folks like you and Wendy insist that "engaging in something positive" is to think and feel and say and do the things that you do.

Again, it only depends on how far, given a particular context, you have come to believe that others are in fact obligated to share your own political values if they wish to be thought of as reasonable and ethical human beings.

Also, on the more constructive side, nihilism can be used to advocate moderation, negotiation and compromise in the pursuit of legal prescriptions and proscriptions. The pursuit of rewards and punishments. Democracy and the rule of law revolve precisely around the assumption that dog-eat-dog survival of the fittest [might makes right] and philosopher-kings [right makes might] may not be the right way to go.

Well, taking into account all that stuff from Marx and Engels of course.




Its usually an immediate justification to the means from the ends that is derived from current existential predicates. Truly transcendent justification of barbarism is not quote true nor factual. That is a general critique that objective transcendentalists have to deal with.
The very failure of.a transcendental object, is the part and parcel of Nihilism, per se.

That involved rationalizing at cross purposes, invoking the principle of negation at one level, while inducing some other kind of rationality.

And that at the current time consists of meaning , or lack of, within contextual differences, or perspectives.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:32 pm

I am still suffering from this summer cold and being at work
at 5:00 AM, which I didn't handle very well....

anyway, I will answer IMP and Meno when I can think again....

so the other day, being sick and all and at work at 5:00,
we don't get much business at 5:00 and so I had some time to just stand
around...(they hate it if we just stand around, they always want us to do
something in the checkstand) and I was daydreaming, you know daydreaming
about stuff like winning the lottery or hitting the big home run that wins
the championship or becoming president, the usual crap one daydreams
about... ... a couple of customers came and I forget about those daydreams...

and when I had nothing to do, I stood in the lobby of the store and was thinking
as I quite often do, about philosophy, life, the questions of existence...that sort of
thing....and my daydream got me to thinking, I have never daydreamed a
philosophical question...I always daydream about doing something, making
the big shot or winning the girl or winning the Oscar..... but I have never
daydream about something philosophical....like Justice or equality...

oh, I have dreamed of becoming President and then creating a just
and equal America but, not without doing something first, becoming
president...… but not dreaming about the concept of justice or equality
or some other philosophical concept by itself...…

We daydream activities that we can act upon, but philosophy isn't
something that we do, it is something that we are....

we do activities
but we are philosophical...
philosophy is a state of being, not a physical action.....

which is why we don't daydream about it..... we can be philosophical
but we don't act philosophical....

philosophy is being, not doing...….

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:33 pm

a concern of Kierkegaard was the "close association"
between existence and truth.....

and I can understand we might see this association between
existence and truth.... to exist is to be in truth....
but that leaves us a couple of questions (just a couple of question?)

for a Christian.. to exist in truth is to exist within god.....

outside of some religious context, how do we exist within truth?

for example, we can exist within truth by existing within some
philosophical context, justice for example... if we live justly
and act justly and engage in justice, we are living within
a truth....we exist within a truth...….

find your truth and live within it....

we have to connect our existence, both individually and collectively,
to some truth....if we decide that truth is religious... then we
must live our life, exist, within that truth we have agreed upon.....

if we decide to exist religiously, then we must exist religiously,
to act within that truth... to make existence and truth
identical...…….if we decide to live philosophically, then
we must act philosophically, we must exist philosophically....
truth and existence must match....

if we decide to exist within justice, then we must exist justice
and act within that truth.. to make existence and justice equal,
one and the same...…

so, what is your truth? and how will you live within that truth?

how will you exist within that truth?

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:57 pm

if we are to bring our lives into truth, then we
must understand what truth we are to live within...….

I wish to live philosophically... then I must act and exist
philosophically... and that means what exactly?

being philosophically isn't doing, it is being...and
how am I to be philosophically?

most people, I would say, 99% of all people exists
ad hoc.. which is to say, they exist and think within
the moment... there just act and think and exist within the moment...
there is no comprehension of anything beyond that moment...
life is improvised, provisional, ad-libed........

but living/existing within philosophically, means one is existing,
living, being within the truth of philosophy... which means we
don't live "ad hoc" but we exist and live within the parameters of
philosophy..... if that truth we live in is justice, then we live
and exist within justice... every thought, every act, every inclination is
done with justice in mind.... is this act just? is this thought just?
am I behaving justly?

it has nothing, but nothing to do with society or morals or laws...
it has to do with our desire, our need to exist within truth...
and that has nothing to do with anything outside of us, outside
of who we are and what we are engaging in.........

if you want to live in truth.... then you must engage in that
truth with your head and heart and all your actions.......

existence and truth must be one and the same......

and perhaps that is the question of human existence...

finding the truth that we can live within, both individually
and collectively....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:17 pm

let us say, you decide your truth is money/profit....

you wish to exist within money/profit....

that is the modern way.....

but to pursue money/profit is to engage in
nihilism.. money/profits negate human beings and their values....

if that is your truth, if that how you wish to exist, then you
are engaging in nihilism.. the negation of human being and their values....

to state, I believe in capitalism is to state, I believe in nihilism......

and to live in that state, that existence is to live nihlistically....

for capitalism to work, it must, must negate and deny human beings
and their values.....capitalism as it exists today, negate and devalues
human beings by making the dollar and the pursuit of the dollar to
be more important then human beings and their values........

Personally, I don't wish to engage or exist within that value......

that truth is not my truth..............

but what about you?

what is your truth?

and in what truth do you want to exist within?

a nihilistic one like capitalism or a positive one like?

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:42 pm

any system, ism, ideology, like capitalism or Catholicism
dialectical materialism, or Hegel's system, where the system is
more important, has more value then the individual, is an
system, ism, ideology that negates, denies, dehumanizes
human beings and their values...…..

to put people into a system is to negate, deny human beings
and their values...….even globalism which is the future, in the end
also practices, engages in the negation and devaluation of
human beings and their values.....

but we must have some overall method of living our lives if not
a system like capitalism or catholicism........

we can live within our truth, we can exist within the values
we decide upon, individually and, and collectivly.....

we don't need systems if we all engage in the truth of justice
and we all live within that truth....
but we don't have to choose justice to reach our goal, for
our goal isn't fixed or decided upon randomly.....

we can create and work for the value/truth of love..
we can live as a truth, love.....

but what about negative values such as hate, anger, lust, greed...
no, any society cannot exist within or under such negative values like
hate or anger or greed... negative values such as anger and hate
increases the amount of entropy that exists within a system...
and we must increase the amount of energy within a system..
and that is done by increasing the amount of positive energy a
system has, not by increasing the negative energy which dissipates
the overall energy a system has...….

we must see and apply positive energy to reenergize a system,
any system and so to reenergize our particular system, we
must infuse it with positive energy of love, hope, charity,
justice...…….

but all changes, all change that occurs within any given society, begins
within the individual and their own personal change...…..

to change society, change yourself....
don't like the society you are in...
begin by changing yourself

and that means finding your own truth to live in, to exists within..
be it justice or love or hope or charity...… find the value and then
live the value...….

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:50 pm

for Kierkegaard, a saying of his was...

"existing is an art, not a science"

we see that we become who we are by art, not science.....

and one of the categories of existence of K. was the Aesthetic
and that living life through the Aesthetic pleasure of the senses...…

it is not through science that we find the truth that we choose
to exist within... it is an art to discover our truth...….
and it is art that we learn to live within that truth by living
our values...…..


one of the failures of (one of many) of dialectical materialism is
that we are expected to live within dialectical materialism...
the context is that we are expected to live our lives within the truth
and the truth being dialectical materialism.....

within... we are within the dialectical which means our existence is
viewed through the lens of the dialectical... and we are judge
by the dialectical and found wanting through the dialectical.....
"MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN"

but I am not weighed or measure by the dialectical.... nor am I to be
judged by such negative values like money/profits or status or fame
nor any other superficial value system...……

we have weighed our lives in terms of false context..
we judge ourselves in terms of fame or fortune or
money or status or title, prestige....

such deceiving and illusive goals are doomed to failure because
they are fraudulent goals to achieve...….

our existence cannot be known by such phony and illusionary
standards...……

we can only find the truth by denying such negative values
that are the object of fame and fortune and status....

we can put the human being above such negative values......

our existence is not defined by what we are, but by who we are...
not by titles or fame but by what we value and hold to be true.....

it is not by activity that we become... but by being...…..

the goal of humans is not in the materialism of the modern world
but by being the values that we hold to be true...…

by being...……

Kropotkin
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