a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:34 pm

Upon reflection, this notion of capitalism, that somehow
the greed and materialism of capitalism brings about
the betterment of society, is nothing more then a
metaphysical account of the "hand of god" as an justification
for the lower instincts of greed, lust, envy, hate and anger, among
other lower instincts that are driven by capitalism...….

Some humans that are not self-determined, believe they
need some justification for their greed and lust and they find
this justification in a metaphysical concept that is the "invisible hand
of god" that drives our materialistic age of capitalism...….

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 7033
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:06 am

I have been thinking about this for some time, well since yesterday anyway......

I have already presented the concept of the "common good"
which was presented originally by Socrates, Plato and
Aristotle......but one has to understand the basic premise
of their argument...….

To the Greeks, it was only in the Polis, the city, that man could find
his Arete, his excellence and the only place where a man could become
a human being, not a barbarian. They accept and understood that was in
a civil society which they equated with the state, that someone could
become who they are. The emphasis that Plato place on the state wasn't just
theoretical jibber jabber, it was the emphasis that the Greeks placed on
the State. To engage with the "common good" meant you were improving the
most valuable tool a Greek had, the polis, the city.

To engage with the Polis, that there was no higher goal of the citizen,
wasn't contested by any Greek.....The Greeks engage with and understood
that they were social creatures who needed the state to find their better natures.

the idea of modern rugged individualism or Ayn Rand nonsense wouldn't have
made any sense to them.. the individual cannot survive on their own, we need
the Polis to survive and become even better, find our Arete.

This is a truth that we have lost and if we are to survive, we must recover
that long lost truth... that alone, we cannot survive and we cannot make the
best of who we are...it is only in our engagement with others, in a civil society/state
that we can we make it.

The idea of the "common good" was continued by virtually every single philosopher
since Aristotle...…until we reach America in the 1900, where the idea changed
names and became the "public good" but the same theory. It has many different
definitions which is part of the problem with the notion of the "public good".
You can almost state the "public good" as almost anything and many dangerous
ideas and policies have been done in the name of the "public good" including
the Holocaust and the atomic bomb and IQ45 tax cuts...…so one has to be aware of what the
proponent of the "public good" is actually advocating, but the essential nature of
the "public good" must have actions that actually benefit the "public". As the
sign on America's wall says, democracy, then we must conduct actions
and policies that benefit its democracy...… not any particular small group like
people who donated to your campaign, or as we call them in my house, bribes....
the "public good" must actually engage and benefit the public, so we include
education and healthcare and social security and Medicare... in other words,
things that are socialistic, as the Greeks knew to be true, we must discover
to be true that the only path to success we can know individually or collectively
must be together, capitalism is not a sustainable ideology and the only path left
is working together and combining our assets and then collectively disposing
of them to benefit the "public good"...…….socialism accepts the proposition that
many hands make light work... if we work together and with purpose, we
can solve many, many of the issues that plague us today...….

which leads me to my last point, vision.... who among our leaders
have a vision that leads us to some goal or destination? we see the younger
leaders like Kamala Harris trying to create ad hoc decisions, but they
aren't leading to some overall, comprehensive goal or vision of where we
want to be and where we need to be.....It is not enough to fight against global
warming, you must endeavor to fight global warming within some vision of
where we want to be in the future...…. the solutions we seek must exist
within some overall plan or destination we want to reach......it is not
enough to create solutions to immigration if we don't understand immigration
in the context of past, present and future and of where we want to be
in the future.

some goal is needed to create some understanding of what steps we
must take to reach that goal...… even if and especially if the goal is
far into the future...… we must begin to plan not just the next quarter
or to the next election, we must plan 5 or 10 or 20 or a 100 years into
the future. We must engage in the long game of the human race.....

for the "public good" demands that we not only focus on the past
and present but on the future and a future where we will not exist....

I am transitory, temporary and you are transitory, temporary... the
polis, society the state will all go on after we die... the society, the state
doesn't need any one individual, but the individual needs society, the state.....
in order to exist, to survive... this is an essential fact of life and we must
think of our goal, our destination in light of the fact that when we die,
we will leave our children and their children, a better life... and that takes
planning, long term planning and thus we need to have a vision, a goal,
a destination for us to reach for and that goal will decide, determine what
steps we must take to reach that goal...…...who among our leaders have
a long term plan, a vision of what tomorrow will look like? None right now..
and thus, I haven't found what I am looking for, apologies to U2...….
in our current crop of people seeking to become president...…

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 7033
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:39 pm

let us take as our guiding principles,
certain ideas that can act as guides into our
vision of the future...…

All human beings are created equal...….

that human beings are transitory, temporary.....

that the search for truth begins with doubt, not wonder.....

that the pursuit of "life, liberty" is fundamental but not the
pursuit of "happiness". No, a thousand times no. This error has
lead humans far astray from what should be their journey...…
what should be in its place? the third phrase should read as this,
the pursuit of "life, liberty and the journey itself".....

for all of human existence is a journey from birth to death....
what is the point or purpose of life..... to die...…
that is the final end game of life,

to die: to sleep, No more:
and by sleep to we end the heart-ache and the thousand natural
shocks that flesh is heir to, tis a consummation devoutly to
be wish'd. To die, to sleep: sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there the rub;
for in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
when we have shuffled off this mortal coil, must give us pause:

Indeed, in this passage of the bard, we see another principle, we discover
the function of ART as it gives us pause, to see another possibility
that exist for us, that in death, we might dream but what dreams must,
give us pause...we imagine our possibilities as human's and we call that

so the next example of guiding principles is simple, we must dream
and we call those dreams ART. ART is simply dreams taking form.....
and we must express those dreams in some fashion and we have ART.

Another guiding principle is, we must have a vision, a goal, a destination
of where are going, both individually and collectively.....Martin Luther
King said, " I have a dream" and that dream is a vision, a goal....and
when the founding fathers said, "all men are created equal" that is another
vision, another goal.

I too have a dream, Kropotkin's dream is that all human beings have
as their guiding principle, the dream of justice.... where all exist
in a state of justice, both individually and collectively...…
and what is justice, Justice is just a term for equality.....

and the cynics and parties without values or hope, shout,
"Utopia, you speak of Utopia.... "man will never reach a state
of justice because we are built too differently. I am different then
my fellow man. My state of justice means I must be treated differently".

and to all who declare themselves above equality, I say unto you.
If wanting justice for all, as a goal for all, makes that vision
a Utopian dream, then let us dream for Utopia. Let our vision of
another day, be a vision of what we call Utopian. Why must we force ourselves
to dream small, why must our vision of tomorrow be so shallow and narrow.
Why not dream big, why not have a vision of tomorrow where there
is justice for all. It is a goal, a vison worthy of being pursued, not this
puny vision/goal of our pursuit of our materialistic theology, where money
is god. NO, let us dream big where we pursue our dreams of where
justice and not security rules the day. and if it be called Utopian, so be it...
I am not afraid of dreams that benefit the entire world.....

and the party of no, shouts, "Naïve" "Innocent" "Dewey-eye liberal"

and I ask, why, why am I "naïve" and they shout back, you can't dream big...

"Why, I ask"

and finally they reveal the truth about themselves, these naysayers and "realist"....

"We cannot dream big. We are not capable of having large visions.
And because of that, we must deny any who dream big, who have a
vision that answers for all of us. To dream big, to imagine utopia is antithetical to us
because we are incapable of such grand visions, of such power of imagination.
We abhor those who can dream big, of those with visions of utopia because
we are unable to dream of such sweeping grand visions...… we have limited, narrow
dreams and visions.....and that makes us suspicious of any who can dream larger
then we can... and that is why we call liberals names..... we have small and
insignificant dreams and goals and visions..... so we must belittle those who can
dream big"

and the truth wills out, for it is jealousy that drives those who
deny the dreamers of large visions...……

I want a world where the values are values of love, peace, hope,
charity, justice and honesty...…. I want a world where we wake up
every day with hope in our hearts. If that be called a utopia, then
so be it......I dream of a utopia where everyone can become who they are
and I dream of a reality where dreams really do come true.....

I dream of a world of hope and justice and love.... I see a vision of
humanity where we live in peace and happiness.... and if that is called
a utopia, then so be it.... I dream of utopia.... and you should to....
for that is the only way we can make utopia real, possible..... it is
by our dreams and our actions that will make utopia real and possible....

so call me such names as you see fit... for I shall be dreaming of a future
where we wouldn't even dream of calling someone names...….

I have a vision......and if is utopia, I plea guilty for I desire to live
in a world where we have peace and justice and love... why dream
of anything less?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 7033
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:29 pm

a question that has faced "Modern" thinkers is this question of
self-reflection....... In other words, we see the universe, reality,
through the lens of "what does it mean to me". Self -reflection
is about seeing reality, the universe through the lens of our "soul"...
but what if, what if we need to see the universe, reality, not by self-reflection,
but by our relationships to other things in the universe.
that is to say, I understand who I am by my relationship to the civil society,
by my relationship to god, by my relationship to other people...….not by
self-reflection. Seeing who we are by our actions and interactions with others,
individually and/or collectively.... not by any self-reflection that says, I am Kropotkin,
and I understand reality, the universe through my understanding of who I am
and what is possible for me.......my value that I understand life is justice, is
that just or not, that is the lens through which I see the universe.....that is
just one way to discover or see reality, the universe..... the way of relationships
says, that I discover who I am, is by my relationships with others, with the state,
with god.... So I learn who I am by my understanding of my actions and interactions
with others/the state/civil society instead of discovering my relationships through
some understanding of what it means to be Kropotkin.......I Kropotkin, I am a liberal,
so I see the world/reality through the lens of my being liberal which I gained through
self-reflection.... no, I understand I am liberal by my actions and interactions and
relationships in the world and that tells me I am a liberal......This question of through
which lens we see the world is one of the basic questions of modernity...….

Do I see the world through subjectivity or do I see the world through the actions
and interactions and relationship within the world and I take that knowledge back
to my subjective self and thus learning the "truth" about the world?

we must at least visit the possibility that we see ourselves and learn about ourselves,
about who we are, by our experiences and interactions with the world instead of
having self-reflections and then seeing the world through those self-reflections.....

How do we see the world/reality?

by what method?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 7033
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:02 pm

these modern leaders who want to be king, they proclaim their solutions
to the problems of the world, my solution to immigration is not a wall, but
comprehensive immigration reform or the solution to poverty is...…..

and they see the ying of the world, the troubles of the world and
the gigantic issues that seem to have infected the world.....
but these leaders lack the vision or the sight to see the yang
of the world which is the beauty of the world, the vision to see
a world of hope and kindness and justice that does exists in the world.....
they see the problems but not the hopeful and positive things in the world....
for that too requires a vision, a insight into what is and what is not.....

we see the problems but not hopeful nature of what it means to be human....

we humans, we need, desire, demand hope and what hope demands,
requires and needs is a vision of tomorrow and what is possible tomorrow.....

for our tomorrow can be a place where justice and love and peace does
exists, not only for us, but for all of us......

Our leaders see the issues, but not the vision or the dream of a better place
that can be found if we just dream and then act upon our dreams.....

I see a tomorrow where there is justice and love and peace...
but our leaders can only see the problems created by man,
but what of the vision to make all our tomorrows possible?

that is lacking...…

it is not enough to say, I see injustice and hatred and anger and greed,
we must do more and dream more and act upon those dreams/visions.

Dream of a utopia where we have justice and hope and dreams and
love and peace..... dare to imagine that possibility... that is what ART
does. it dares to dream and imagine those possibilities.

but the naysayers and "realist" might say,

"but utopia has its failings and it is possible that utopia might be a nightmare....

yes, that is true, but until we dream and act upon our visions, we can never
find out.... and I would rather find out then just deny its possibilities because those
possibilities might, might not work out...…….

working for an impossible future is preferable to just existing in a world lacking
in hope and justice and peace...….

Someone once said, "workers of the world, unite! you have nothing to lose but your chains"

people of the world, unite! you have nothing to lose but your injustice, your despair,
your misery..... Unite and become who you dream of, unite and discover
your possibilities.... what do you have to lose but your anger and your hate and
your bigotry, your intolerance and the hopelessness that exists in our world today...…

it is not about the struggle of the classes against each other, but about the possibility
to achieve something beyond just class consciousness.... to achieve the possibility
of becoming human, fully human.... rising above or overcoming those lower
instincts that hold us back from becoming human... the fear and anger and hatred
that is the lower instincts.... rise above those lower instincts, those lower values
and dream of world that has justice and hope and charity and peace...…

dream big or go home...…

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 7033
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:50 pm

Heidegger spends a great deal of time dealing with concealed
and unconcealed.....things are concealed and then unconcealed....
this uncovering happens as a historical event, but let us take a closer
look at what it means to travel from concealed to unconcealed.....

Christians believe in god and jesus and heaven and hell, in
fact they take all the ideology that goes along with believe in god.....

we know that belief in god was very strong and is strong today....
but let us take Nietzsche's word when he said, "god is dead and we have
killed him"...…..this type of concealment where god had died but
we didn't know it, we didn't even know we killed him.....
then Nietzsche unconcealed it, revealed the "truth" that god was died...…

Now think of the 19th century, from the Napoleonic wars to the death of Nietzsche,
in 1900...….. how could Nietzsche discover that "god was dead" if it was
concealed, how did he uncover it? what was his evidence for the statement
that "god was dead and we had killed him"?

I received some truths that had been concealed from me and now
they are unconcealed, uncovered.....

I don't hide the fact I hate my job and the corporation I work for and
after transferring me to a store much further away, that was the last straw,
I sent out resumes and contacted people...….and one honest person,
spoke truths to me and uncovered my reality...…. I am too old
and have worked too long at my company for anyone to hire me....
I am unhirable… pure and simple.... this truth has brought some
uncomfortable truths to the table for me...…..

when we are young, we have possibilities, choices, options,
door open when we are young...… as we grow older, our choices,
our possibilities, our options grow ever smaller.... doors once opened,
no longer open..... I no longer have choices, options, possibilities to find
another job..... I am too old..... and the truth announced itself to me.....
I have been reduced to only two working choices and that is the outcome of
being old..... I work at my present job in my present company and be unhappy
and miserable or I retire and I can't afford that.... so as we grow old
the fact of life is we have our choices and possibilities ever reduced, grow
smaller...…..but given this unconcealment of my ever reducing possibilities
and choices, I must find out what possibilities and choices, I do have?

and after a rather bitter day mulling over my reduced choices and possibilities,
I've come to realize that I can still exercise my possibilities and choices, here
as I write and read and think...….I can still find my possibilities within the
words and art I create here at ILP...…. as one door in my life closes, I can
find other possibilities and choices in my writings...…...in my working life,
I must work until I can retire or I die.... that is my only two choices but
in my art, and I call my postings here, ART..... for it is the act of creation
that I engage with here and, and it reveals to me, my still existing possibilities
and choices...…..

yesterday was a day of uncomfortable truths, but my reality isn't solely based
on my working status.... I must find my truths elsewhere and that will be
in my studies...…

one door closes and another opens...…

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 7033
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:48 am

I just had a thought, so think of this as an thought experiment
more then my usual ramblings.....

modernity....and what separates modernity from what came before....

think of how things were done before technology and science....

most of the world for most of humanity's history has grown their own
food and/or hunted and/or fished... if you wanted to eat, for most of history
you either grew it or you hunted it..... that has been the human way for
since the creation of humans and in fact, that is the way it is for animals....
to eat, you found your food, you killed it, then you ate it......
that has been the way of animals for over a billion years here on planet

now at time the technology grew from spears to bow and arrows to guns,
but the idea was still the same, the tools used changed......

for American frontier families, they grew their food and then went into
town and traded that food for other goods they needed.. but the
meat/fish was found, killed and eaten....... you had an immediate
direct relationship with the processes that allowed you to exists.....

to grow the food, you needed plows and other tools that farmers
needed to grow their food...…..

there was no separation between the actions of the human being
and how they lived... if you wanted to eat, you had to find and kill the food
and if you wanted to grow stuff, you had to grow the stuff...… there was no
mediation between human's actions and how they lived......in other words,
you had direct control over your food and how you got them.....

think of the modern world..... If I want to eat, I go to the store, I buy
the food and we use appliances to cook the food.....
compare that to the way of life for a million years....
If I was hungry, I had to go find the food, kill the food and prepare the food
myself or get a family member to do so.....

we were in direct contact with the way we lived, the tools we used were
limited in how they were used....the modern person who is squeamish about
blood or killing animals would have died before 1800 because they had to kill and prepare
food to survive..... of course this was before modernity.....

now as I said, we go to the store, buy the food and pay money for it....
so clean and neat and without any idea of how that food was prepared.....
we simply take it for granted...…

or to say this another way, between us and the basics of life, exists
our tools, technology, machines... our means of how we survive
is separate and apart from us by technology and machines.....

we exists and someone else who we don't know and have never
meet, has already taken care of the "modern" needs of survival....

we exists and the basics of life is separate and apart from us...…

we have no contact with or are completely separated from a millions
years of existence...out tools and technology and machines have
isolated us from what human life was like for a million years...…

we exists and between us and the basics of life exists some sort of
mediation, tools, machines and technology and even money.....

of course we feel alienated, remote, an estrangement from
our existence because we are living our lives vastly different
then all life previously, human and animal...….

we humans have had over 15,000 generations of human existence
since the beginning of modern humans, since the beginning of
"modern" times, say the French revolution, we have had 9 generations.....
(at roughly 25 years per generation)

9 generations isn't enough time to adapt or learn to cope with the radical
changes that has happened since the French Revolution.....my great grandmother
was born in 1849, thus I am 4 generations away from 1849...…
so personally, I am roughly 6 generations from the French Revolution....
not much time...……

so how do generations adapt so quickly over so short of a time to
go from living a life that in 1789 would have been familiar to
Julius Caesar, some 2000 years ago, to living a life that would have been completely
unfamiliar to someone like Napoleon in the short span of the 230 years
since the French Revolution...……

we have become separated, apart, alienated from the human existence that
had lasted for over 300,000 since the rise of modern humans...…..

so let us think about history for a moment.....

the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans were part of the cycle of human existence
that went from the rise of the city to the Medieval times.... The Greeks for
example, felt they were part of a long past that went back into the unknow past...
they felt at home with the long standing tradition that the were part of and had
lasted for a couple of thousand years......that collapse and the new age began.....
but this new age had much of the same process that had lasted for a million years..
Human beings lived off the land.... thus the political and economic and social
order may have changed, but it didn't change the fact that human beings still
existed by living off the land... that didn't change until the start of the industrial
revolution or roughly 1789...…….and within a hundred years, the modern world was
not only born but brought into fruition.... we can easily see the modern world
by 1900... phones, cars, airplanes came a few years later, but at the French Revolution,
you cannot see the modern world, not yet....the machines and science and technology
wasn't there yet......the science and machines and technology which has divided us
from the previous 15,000 generations of human beings.....

and now the 64,000 dollar question? is this a good thing or a bad thing?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 7033
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:41 am

when thinking about it, metaphysics makes sense when
one is in immediate contact with living off the land...
you hunt, you fish, you grow stuff on land... that is immediate, direct
contact with how human beings have lived for 15,000 generations....
you are in touch with all those ancestors who lived before you because
you are living your life in the exact same way they did..... tradition
is strong because tradition is a way of life....

we moderns have no contact with our traditions, because we
don't live our life as the prior generations did.... we have become
apart, separate, alienated from that way of life that existed for a million years
and a billion years before that......

and having a god or a religion makes sense in the midst of a history that
has existed for several hundred of thousands of years...…..
but as we don't have immediate contact with or better said, we have layers
of science and machines and technology between us and the basics of life,
we don't have the same connection to the past that had existed for
15,000 generations of human existence......

even in the urban environment of existence, it really didn't change much
from Egypt to Greece to Rome through the Middle ages through the rise of
the modern city, Paris, Rome, London... .. until the French Revolution,
living in the city was pretty much the same everywhere because the city
life itself didn't really change from Greece to 1789.... the rise of science
and machines and technology, that changed city life to what the modern
city is today.....the connection that existed in the city that was there
since the ancient times, change because of the rise of science, technology
and machines...…..the very act of living is different today because of the
science and technology and machines that exists and we haven't come to
grips with what that means yet...…..before the French revolution,
life in the city was pretty much the same outside of local differences,
but now life has changed and, and this is the confusing part,
travel from one city to the next, and there is a certain sameness,
a certain local feel, but each city is tied and connected to each other
by science and technology and machines that makes every city seem to
be no different, again outside of local differences...… so, San Francisco
is different then Chicago, having lived in both, but they are connected
by the science, technology and machines that exists within both and tie both
together...….if someone dropped you off in an American city and didn't tell
you what city, without asking someone, how long would it take for you to know
what city you were in? As every city has cars and public transportation
and streets and tall buildings and everywhere exists the same stores,
7/11 and Walgreens and rite-aid and Burger King and MacDonald's and Wendy
and Macy and Sears (before they fell) the Gap and Nordstrom's......

the sameness of our American cities is scary..... and something of a connection
that human beings need......

this sameness that is American cities also existed in various cities in Europe
not because of the fact that cities didn't really change for the average person.....
Paris of 1500 and Paris of 1600 and Paris of 1700 was remarkable the same city...…
And London didn't change that much over the 300 years and during the Middle ages,
the cities didn't change that much, from 600 AD to 1500 AD, Paris wasn't that different.

a citizen of 800 Paris could have easily gotten around during the 1500's, the only difference
was the city of Paris was much larger, but the life within the city was still the same with
people leading similar lives, doing the same jobs, getting around the same way, it wasn't
that different from 800 Paris to 1700 Paris......their lives were the same, they lived the
same, the taxes was the same, the churches were the same, the food was the same.....
life was no different in 800 as it was in 1700... but life was completely different in
Paris by 1900... and science and technology and machines changed Paris enough to
make it unrecognizable to someone from 800 or even 1700...….

we must understand this change before we can understand what it means
to be "moderns".... Modernity cannot make sense until we understand
what it meant to live in the past...….

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 7033
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state


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