a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:15 pm

I spent some time yesterday engage in a thought experiment....

ok, we have certain goals and destinations we human have valued....

being happy, finding wisdom, becoming one with god, gaining wealth,
having fame, among some goals humans have tried for...
and I suspect that those goals are the results of the containers
that we have around us, like ism's and ideologies and myths
and habits and superstitions.....so, my thought experiment was this,
can I go outside of my containers, that which I am bound by,
and think of other goals and destinations?

or is being human itself with its limitations, the container itself
and limits what our possible goals and destination might be?

I can only think of so many goals because as a human being, I
am limited to think of a limited number of goals.... my human nature
itself limits what goals I can achieve..... and think of.......

what is the possible reaches of the human possibility? how far
can we reach being human? what is our farther reaches of what
is possible, of being human?

in other words, can we by our own actions, be able to fly?
or is it possible to achieve what we refer to as "superhuman"
ability? and the answer is yes.. I think...

is it possible we can somehow teach ourselves to have superhuman
abilities like flying and moving matter and run super fast....
after some thought, I believe it is.... but that means what must
happen is we must devote all our time and effort to this task....

but it is possible....so what other possiblities we might have for
the human being? to communcate with each other over vast distances
without any mechanical means like a radio or phone......this is possible....

the point is, what is our possibilities? what is possible for human beings
to achieve? we don't know until we try... and that is really our next step....
to try to achieve what seems to be impossible.... but then 200 years ago,
aircraft and cars and cell phones and microwaves and trips to the moon,
all seem to be impossible and yet today, they are so commonplace, we don't even notice
it anymore.....

so, dare the impossible .... so today, reach to discover what is your possibilities....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:42 pm

in thinking about this, I have an interesting point,
but lack time to really think this out, so I am going
to hit the high points and later when work is not so pressing,
I shall flesh this out into something coherent.....

an idea of leadership, we have two types of leadership.
one type is called transformational leadership and the other
type is transactional leadership....

what I am thinking is this, perhaps, perhaps we can
remove the word leadership and say, we have two types
of actions and/or two types of behavior or two types of looking
at the world and drop the word leadership.....

I think that people can fall into two different types of actions
or behavior... one is transactional and the other is transformational.....

so we have to understand what is considered transactional and what
is transformational.........

from my friends at wiki.....

"Transactional leadership: is a style of leadership that focuses on supervision,
organization, and performance; transactional leadership is a style of leadership in which
leaders promote the compliance by followers through both rewards and punishment..
Unlike transformational leaders, those using the transactional approach are not looking
to change the future, they look to keep things the same. Leaders using transactional leadership
as a model pay attention to followers work in order to find faults and deviations....

This type of leadership is effective in crisis and emergency situations, as well
as for projects that need to be carried out in a specific way......."

Looking at this definition, it screams out people who follow the GOP
and their mind set.....it is the GOP and those who believe in the same,
they follow this transactional approach to leadership and to people.....

so let us remove the leadership aspect and approach it from a behavior
and as a model of action for people......for one person who act or behaves,
this is one model for people to behave.... transactional behavior.....
it isn't about changes, it is about keeping things the same.. and the
need to find fault in an attempt to maintain the status quo......sound like
republican actions and behavior to me.....

again wiki:
"Transformational leadership, this is a style where a leader
works with subordinates to identify needed change, creating a vision to guide
the change through inspiration, executing the change in tandem with committed
members of a group. Transformational leadership serves to enhance the motivation,
morale and job performance of followers through a variety of mechanisms: these
include connecting the follower's sense of identity and self to a project and to the
collective identity of the organization; being a role model for followers in order
to inspire them and to raise their interest in the project; challenging followers to
take greater ownership for their work, and understanding the strengths and weaknesses
of followers, allowing the leader to align followers with tasks that enhance their

once again, remove the idea of leadership and take this as a standard or model
of action or behavior... and we see this is as a working definition of left wing,
liberal actions or behavior... the collective working together for a common goal
which is not given by the leader but decided within the group.... that practically
is the formula of a liberal....to challenge and inspire... isn't that what Obama did?
and isn't that what MLK did? we see these not as leadership styles but
as individual and collective ideas as to how we are to operate in the world
and achieve our goals... not by rewards or punishments but by challenging
followers to achieve goals that make them better.......if that isn't liberal,
I don't know what is....

conservative behavior is about transactional behavior and liberal behavior
is about transformational behavior...........

transactional behavior is about maintaining the status quo
transformational behavior is about creating change....

that is in a nutshell the difference between conservative
and liberal.......

transactional behavior is about the lower level instinctual
behavior... the lower level instincts like hate, anger,
violence, greed, envy,

transformational behavior is about the higher level thoughts...
love and peace and hope and justice and equality and charity.....

Caesar is transactional and Jesus is transformational...

this is very interesting but I am running out of time
and must get going to get ready for work.....


"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:22 pm

to encourage change is transformational....
any attempt to better oneself or to better the environment around
one is transformational....

to maintain status quo is transactional...
to think in terms of rewards and punishment is transactional....

the biblical ten commandments are transactional.....
thou shall not...... or one will be punished....

heaven and hell are transactional.....
to achieve them one must act in a correct manner.....
that is pleasing to god.....

so on which side to you fall on....
transactional or transformational.....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Pneumatic-Coma » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:22 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
Pneumatic-Coma wrote:
you want to make a better society... simply start with making America
more just....practice equality... which means, we must make
our goals to be about increasing justice and equality, not
increasing our GDP.. or increasing our own personal wealth....
the path to a better America is the path of becoming more just.....
where justice is truly blind and where equality is the standard
to follow, not wealth.........

This comment above was entirely contradicted and negated cause you first mentioned it was and I quote

values.... there are not just personal values but collective values
of religion for example.... a church for example, is a place
of collective values that come from some source, usually
from revelation of some sort.....bible, koran, Talmud.....

in return for accepting those values, the believer is given
salvation and a one way ticket to heaven........

from my friends at wiki:

"religious values are ethical principles founded in religious traditions,
text and beliefs. In contrast to personal values, religious-based values
are based on scriptures and a religion's established norms"

we see for example, the Christian values..... which are shorthanded
as "family" values...

these values are seen to be Christian values:

Love of god...

fidelity in marriage...

renunciation of worldly goods....

renunciation of vengeance.....

forgiveness of sins......

unconditional love......

the ten commandments for example are a listing of values...

thou shall not.......

1: you shall have no other gods, but me

2. you shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it
or worship it....

3. you shall not misuse the name of the lord, your god....

4. you shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy....

5. respect your father and mother....

6. you must not commit murder...

7. you must not commit adultery...

8. you must not steal.....

9. you must not give false evidence against your neighbor....

10. you must be envious of your neighbour's goods...
you shall not be envious of his house nor his wife nor anything that
belongs to your neighbor......

and yet, we see the "MODERN" Christian not only violating these
commandments but actively supporting the opposite of these
commandments, these values......

it is clear that the modern Christian along with the modern American
holds money as an idol far higher then faith in god.....

the evangelical support that fuels the GOP is support for values that
are against the ten commandments and against everything jesus said......

their vote for IQ45, a person who lies and steal and commits adultery
and has mammon as his highest value... shows the bankruptcy of
modern Christian values...... IQ45 is a walking, talking example of
everything jesus preached against..... and yet, that doesn't deter
the modern Christian from supporting IQ45............

at this point, we must return to existentialism as a point of reference....

the existentialist argued against an inauthentic life..... where
one's words and one's actions were two different things.....

the modern Christian words say one thing and their actions say
another thing... and this division between words and action
exposes many other division of words and actions......

the politician who claims to be for the people and yet works for
the highest bidder, politicians who are nothing but whores
in more expensive suits....... they speak one thing and
act upon a different thing.....

do you want to know the failure in America today?

it lies, in part, with people speaking words
and doing something different than those words.....

it lies in the hypocrisy of modern life...... we utter
words of forgiveness and words of love and words of
everyone is equal and our actions are of
hate and intolerance and injustice........

thou shall not kill.....

and yet if you support the policemen who kill,
you are a hypocrite.....

if you are a Christian and you support the death penalty...
you are a hypocrite.....

if you are a Christian and you support the GOP...
you are a hypocrite......

tell me your values.....
and then show me your actions......
do your words match your actions?

no, then you are a hypocrite....

so, tell me... what are your values?

and then show me your actions that support
your words.........

So what I understand from this is that religion teaches you shut off any type of guilt you may have in you just by simply redeeming yourself yeah? You may have resolved your own metal landscape, yet not the prior situations right? Redemption is only the moral state of mind telling you what was right and wrong all along. Yet if religion can teach you to turn on and off like that you're more an easily swayed human soul yourself. First off fooling yourself isn't fooling reality and all of it's actual proofs. I see it like this, that which you are really after and care most about, that which you wish you can really pay reverence towards, is in that same way dire straights mentally. Abusing dilemmas with interpretation of your own choice and quick to criticize those around for it. Listen learn to break away from both Religion and State it's not healthy I can clearly see this.

K: I have read this several times and frankly, I don't understand what you are trying to get at...
perhaps you could clarify this for me.....


You had need to be the one to be clarifying such beliefs bud. :D
(Our object of desire isn't to change current belief systems or complicate already convoluted streams of information; we're not trying to even prove ourselves in anyway. We're just human beings similar to yourself. Not superior, the same. Ancestors of the lost world. The conflicts of beliefs you face in your world, are not only the conflict of self yet life, we cannot compel such conflicts to other's will for any self-benefit. The true goal reached here is there is nothing we can say nor do that can convince anyone else of what they don't know for themselves already. And, when the time calls, and you are ready, the barriers of awareness will expand and such confirmed information will be easily perceived, and known to them! Allow them to seek and find out when they are prepared. All will arrive to light in no time.) Ego sum via veritas et vita;Amesha Spenta;Vohu Mano; Allow all things measurable, microbial and astronomical to remain infinite, unchanged and arrive to light.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:01 pm

after a couple of ugly days of work, I'm baaaack.....

when last seen, I was advocating a new understanding of
our actions, our way of doing things......

transactional vs transformational.....

usually they are described as leadership styles but, but I believe they
can be used to understand a new way of thinking about our
beliefs and actions in regard to this transactional and transformational

we exist in a multiple number of systems... from our own little personal
system to great, large almost unseen systems that connect us from ourselves
to distant galaxies......and the question is, what is our place in this large scheme
of things? our place, as it were is really different for everyone because
we each of us, exists in a different place in regards to each other and the
multitude of different systems we all exist in.............

even in a small system like husband and wife...... my wife and I exist
in different places in our system because we are in different places....
we have different viewpoints and even by virtue of being male and female,
we are in different places and with different viewpoints in regards to
how we see our little system...........it is far easier to see one's
place in a system if the system is small or not very complicated.....

so, we must understand how our actions affect the various systems
we each belong to and our actions can be transactional or transformational.....

and to understand our actions in regards to a system and transactional or
transformational actions or behavior...... we must begin to understand
the system we exist in.......take my own little personal relationship or
system with my wife.... if we engage in transactional behavior with each
other, for example, we work at the basic level of needs satisfaction,
we focus on the lower levels of the needs hierarchy.... we simple take
care of our lower level needs of food, water, shelter, clothing, education.........
our relationship cannot grow or become something different if we all we
do is focus on established routines and procedures and our reward for
simple emphasizing settings of goals and the efficiency of our operation
and increase of productivity.....in other words, if we act corporate in
our relationship with each other.....we establish goals and try to maximize
efficiency.... a relationship is far more then just trying to be efficient.....
or reaching goals.....you have to look at the system and then understand the
the actions or behavior needed....... if we based our relationship on simple
meeting goals or established routines and the efficiency of those routines,
our marriage would have ended a long time ago...... it would have died of boredom....
and complacency......a marriage is not just about the goals and efficiency of our
marriage, but about the motivation and sense of identity and our self worth
and taking ownership of who we are and what we are trying to achieve....
a marriage is more then the nuts and bolts of achieving some goal...
I have my strengths and she has her strengths and we are stronger together
then individually because her strengths are my weaknesses and my strengths are
her weaknesses......every single system has it goals and efficiency.... but what
we are trying to do with a system is not just reach goals and become more efficient,
but to go beyond that..... to create a vision of who we might be within
that system......we might make achieving greatness as a goal within a
system.... but if the goal is simply to increase efficiency of established
routines and procedures and become more concerned with following the
existing rules.... then we are just doing nothing more then just existing.....
why not strive to become something more then just reaching some modest
goal or to become more efficient...... why not become something more?
that is transformational thinking..... what would it take to achieve something
more then just increasing efficiency and following procedures......
and it is not just about me, but about all of us........
it is not enough to reach some modest goal and call it a day......

part of the failure of America today has been its attempt to just
become more efficient and just following the rules and established
procedures........... we must rise above these mundane goals and
strive to become something greater.....

it is not enough to just achieve the goal of basic survival...
to only be concerned with reaching the basic goals of the lower level
of survival like eating and water and clothing and shelter....
we must strive to achieve something beyond just the basic
level of survival......there is more then enough money and resources
to achieve that basic level of having enough food and water and resources
for everyone on planet earth... but the vast extra money and resources
are going to the 1%... instead of going to all the people..... remember, 500
people have the same wealth as half the planet, 3.5 billion people.....
dream big and use that extra money that those 500 people have
and use that for the basic necessities of those 3.5 billion people......
we have the resources to take care of the planet and all its people....
we don't because we are following some outdated and dangerous
ism's and ideologies....all of this is connected.....
transactional and transformational actions and behavior
and our current situation........... if we understood
that we can change our current situation if we think beyond
the transactional thinking that is current in America today
and begin to think transformational and begin to think of how
we can change who we are and who we can become and create
the society we need, not the society we have... to become
the people we can be....... only if we escape our thinking, will this
be possible....if we think within the box, we will simple continue
as is... if we think outside of the box and engage, we can become
something more..........

so what will it be?

the past or the future?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue May 01, 2018 6:08 pm

we can use what we have found out so far, to create
a understanding of, how are we to act?

we are to act to benefit the system or systems we are in,
unless and there is always an unless, the system is a danger to us
and others like us.......

so in practical terms this means, we promote and help the current
system we are in unless it is a danger to us which capitalism is....
and who decides? to give another practical example, I have concluded
with evidence provided here, that capitalism is a danger to myself
and to the earth.... so I cannot in good faith promote and protect capitalism...
it must be changed.....or ended.......the practice of capitalism has endangered
my health, it has damaged the earth in ways that cannot be repaired
and it endangers the future.... as a system, capitalism is too dangerous
to continue.... and we must end this system......

we can promote and continue another economic systems that is less dangerous
and less harmful to me, to the people around me and to the earth.....

one of, ONE OF, the criteria used to discover if something worth continuing
is this, is continuing this system a clear and present danger to me and others?

and the answer is clearly yes.......for capitalism........

and the idea between transactional actions and behavior would be that,
the point would be to continue capitalism as the "safest" thing to do, to maintain
the status quo, to work in its efficiency of its established routines and procedures
and by working on the efficiency of capitalism routines and procedures, we can
aid capitalism form damaging people.... by improving its efficiency, we improve
the system of capitalism..... but it very efficiency is the problem with capitalism.....
capitalism is not concerned with saving or conserving, it is about consumption..
creating and feeding that consumption... that is the goal of capitalism....
in unchecked, that is all capitalism will continue to do, is consume until
there is nothing left..... and capitalism dies at the same time we die......

that is part of the failure of capitalism... its function is to consume
and create consumption as its means of fulfilling its desired effect which
is by increased consumption, we increase our profits.....

now reread that last sentence and understand this.....

at no point does it pretend to care if people are hurt or suffer under capitalism,
that isn't the point of capitalism, consumption is, not people or their values,
but the act of consumption is to create more profits.....and how does that
consumption help the overall system of planet earth? it doesn't.......

once again we return to the equation..... what we consume must be equaled
by what we produce.... production and consumption must be equal......
if not, then have an unequal equation and that is means the
the equation is about to fail.... you must have equal sides of an equation
for that equation to succeed....energy and matter must be equal for that
equation to be successful.... we see that the solar system is an equation......
and the equation must be equal on both sides or the system fails......
maybe not today or tomorrow, but eventually....and that is why the solar
system succeeded... it is an equation that is equal on both sides.....

and we see why systems work or don't work... they are equations...
and if the equation is unequal, then the system must at some point.... fail.....

if we think of capitalism as a system, it is unequal.. and it admits it is unequal...
and by doing so, it will fail.... we must transition to an ism or ideology...
that is an equation and that equation must be equal on both sides or it will fail.....

so if too many people are taking out of the system more then they are putting into
the system, they are creating an unequal system and it will fail.... which is why
we must, must have equal taxes being paid by citizens and corporations and the church...
if we have one or even two sides collecting benefits but not contributing
that is creating an unequal system and that system is going to fail and that is
a perfect description of what is happening today....because of the failure of
the wealthy and corporations to fulfill their part of the equation, the equation
becomes unbalanced, unequal and thus is far more likely to fail... and we see
another example of how our system, America is becoming unbalanced....
unequal and that inequality is so damaging to the system it becomes at risk
to failure.... and that is what we are facing failure because both
out economic and political systems have become unbalanced and unequal...
the equation that is the economic and political system of America have
become unequal....... the rich have bought the economic and political
system of America and that has created an unequal balance, an inequality
to America that threaten to damage the entire system to the point of failure....

if you want to see how this plays out, read the "Decline and fall of the Roman Empire"
by Gibben.....read how the failure of the system was created in part by the
wealthy and religious to avoid paying taxes and thus created an unequal burden
on the poor and working class to make up the difference.....
that put stress on the system and made it unbalanced and unequal......
and it failed...and our system following the model of the Roman Empire
will too fail and for the same reasons, we didn't maintain or keep up the equation
that allowed the system to succeed....the Roman system invested a major
portion of its money into defense... sounds familiar?

we are following the Roman path to a system failure and it won't be pretty.....

the system is unbalanced... theirs or ours? yes.......
and that unbalanced system, that unequal equation is what
did destroy the Roman empire and will destroy us......

so, the question becomes finding balance and creating an equal
equation in America today..... and that begins with the money.....
we must no longer have inequality in our incomes.... that is unequal..
and creates a unbalanced equation.... and that threatens our system/systems....

for America to survive and thrive... we must begin with creating
a balanced and equal America....we must have an equation that
allows America to thrive and grow.... and that begins with income
equality which allows the balanced between members of the group
to maintain... we must have an equal or balanced judicial system
that is really, truly blind or it creates an unequal, unbalanced system...
and that lack of balanced creates an unequal system and that threatens
all of us........

so those words of equality... and the words of justice... are not just words
that do nothing..... they are balancing words that allow our system to
actually function... without equality and justice... our system will begin to fail...

like any system that becomes unbalanced... unequal.... the equation on both
sides must be maintain and continued or the system becomes threaten with

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed May 02, 2018 5:10 pm

ok, so we have bits and pieces of this, let us try to bring it all

we have, in no particular order, transactional and transformational
actions and behavior, we have systems.. we have our equations-
everything must be equal on all sides for an equation to work....
and we have ......us.....

ok, we have to bring in another point now.... a notion that
is common in political science but now, is needed in
in our understanding of who we are and what is possible....

this notion of checks and balances....a notion where
no one branch of government is too strong... the other
co-equal branches.....and note the word co-equal....equal....

the other branches of government act as checks and balances on
the other branches... the executive branch helps keep
the legislative branch in check and the legislative branch
helps keep the executive branch in check....
and the judicial branch helps keep the other two branches in check....

this idea of checks and balances is a key component of our government
and one of the founding fathers basic idea as to how to keep government
in check.......which was one of their primary worries as they founded
our government..........

so, we have ...me, myself and I... and how am I to discover
what is the best course of action for me... or how am I to know
how to act.....what actions or behavior should I engage in?....

this are variations of the same question..... what am I to do?
what is the right course of action/actions for me to engage in?

we know or understand, we exists in a multitude of systems..
from the small, my wife, and me....and my wife
and I are one system.... but we also understand, we exists
in massively large systems...and that becomes a problem...
how are we to act in a massive system... so we have a macro
behavior problem and a micro behavior problem....we must
understand how we are to act both in the small, my wife and I
and the large, the ideology of representative democracy......

surprisingly, the answer is the same for both.....

and the key is both in the equation and the check and balances......

to exist in a system is to exist in an equation... if the system is not
equal, the system will at some point fail... this equality of the system
key for the survival of the system, any system.... for example,
think of your car.... the car must have all its minor system working
and engage for the car to run....if one system has failed to work,
that compromises the entire system....and threatens the entire system....

but think of the concept of check and balances.... if a mechanic
makes the engine too powerful without compensating for it by
bracing, improving the suspension system means the car could
be too powerful for the suspension system and cause the car to
crash......you have to equalize the car to compensate
for any changes you make on the car.... this equalization
is a main point to keeping a car running...... and so it is true with

think of one person....one man.... now what happens to a man who
is no longer equal... in other words, they allow their work to come
first at all cost.... they suffer as a person... one of the mantra's of
today is finding balance in the work/life behavior........finding
the right balance between work and life is a major key to
the mental balance of any human being..... we must remain in
within the equation of work/life balance.... and you can think of it,
as life is a check on work....and work as a check on life...... there must
be some balance between the two for them to work equally......

and checks and balances also works for us individually...
my wife acts as a check and balance on my behavior and actions.
and I act as a check and balance for her actions and behavior.....
we provide something very important for the other person.....

this idea of checks and balances can also be thought of as feedback....
and this is one of the essential aspects of life....one of the 7 basic features
of life.... feedback......we must have feedback from one part of the system to
the other part of the system to allow the system to correct itself....
to provide checks and balances and to keep the equation in the system.....

see how checks and balances and keeping an equation becomes the same thing.....

so next, we connect other aspects into this.....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed May 02, 2018 5:53 pm

my day off and doing about 12 things at once...anyway....
to return....

let us say, we have an balanced man and an unbalanced man....
we can call the balanced Man... Obama... and the unbalanced
man.... IQ45......we see how the balanced man has personal checks
and balances... he has a wife he listens to and he clearly acted
within checks and balances of the congress when he was president....
there has never been a hint of personal impropriety in regards to Obama....
he is a man in balance and in check... he maintains his personal equation...
he has a good work to life balance.......

now we get to IQ45.... he has no checks and balances...
now many people including republicans think IQ45 is unhinged...
untethered to the truth, lacking checks and balances, he cheats
and lies and is general, he is a terrible person.....

that is because he lacks those checks and balances that keeps
the rest of us in balance......he even lacks the basic discipline that
most of us have to even keep silent when silence would do him
a great deal of good.....

his system is unbalanced due to the lack of checks and balances..
he won't die but he is a failure as a human being and a failure
as a businessman and a failure as president....

IQ45 quite clearly is a transactional person...in fact, he may
be called the quintessential transactional person......he is very focus
on keeping organizational members on the goals he sets and he is very
focus on increasing the efficiency of established rountines and procedures
and having organizational members follow existing rules then with
making changes in the structure of the organization...he is very concerned
with loyality... not so much with the competence of any member of his
organization......he is very much about rewards and punishment......
his focus is the status quo, not on change.....
and his leadership style is very laissez-faire.. which is common
in transactional leadership...he only cares about his goals
and everybody else can fend for themselves....

let us look at transformational:
emphasizing intrinsic motivations and positive development of followers
raising awarness of moral standards
highlighting importan priorities
fostering higher moral maturity in followers
creating an ethical climate (share values, high ethical standards)
encouraging followers to look beyond self-interest to the common good
promoting cooperation and harmony
using authentic, consistent means.
using persuasive appeals based on reason
appealing to the ideals of followers
allowing freedom of choice for followers

now this describes Obama style to the T
and doesn't describe IQ45 at all.....
now, take this an remove the leadership aspect
and take this as a guide to actions and behavior in life.....

the balanced man uses transformational idea's and the
unbalanced man uses transactional idea's.....

think about it.....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed May 02, 2018 6:36 pm

the fact is IQ45 is a failure...
both personally and professionally....

WHAT? What did you say? How can you call someone worth
a billion dollars and president of the U.S, a failure......

it is by placing IQ45 in context... context means experience....

IQ45 is a failure... pure and simple... once you understand why....

look at his role within the system..... he has caused chaos and
has damaged the american system badly....
it will takes many years to repair the damage IQ45 has
done to the American system......the so called signature piece of
legisation of the IQ45 years... the tax bill.... when we know, from
prior experience that tax cuts don't improve the economy or create
jobs... as shown by history...from JFK tax cuts to Bush's tax cuts, not
once has a tax cuts been shown to increase jobs or help the american
economy.........all it is, is welfare for the rich...nothing more.....
it does nothing for the economy.......it will takes years to recover from
that despicable act of corporate and personal welfare for the wealthy.....

let us return to this idea of checks and balances....
it is clear that the congress has failed to do its job
and be part of the check and balance on the president.....
as has the judicial system... and this failure has damaged
the political system... it has allowed IQ45 to violate the law
and the constitution.......his personal enrichment while president
which violates the law and the constitution....there are no checks and
balances on him because congress has failed to do its job....

so where is the checks and balances on him?
it is in the streets and in the state capitals....
we the people... and we the people are the check and
balances on him when we march in the streets in protest....
as weak as that is..... because we the people, see that IQ45
is damaging the American political system......

and that damaging the system is in part why he is a failure...
a person who damages a system is a menace to that system....

let us look at another aspect of this story.....
IQ45 is about hate, envy, lust, greed, anger.....
those lower, primal instincts....

he doesn't raise people to create better citizens or
better people.... he lowers people, to allow them
to become their lower instincts of greed and hate and anger....

he is a failure because he is about the lower instincts
and not creating better people.......

I don't think I can emphasize enough how much of a failure
IQ45 is.....there is no point where he has improved or help America
become a better place or a better country or a better culture or
a better people......... he has failed in all aspects of being a leader
and has failed in all aspects of being a human being......

he brings inequality which is unbalanced in our equation..
and for a system to survive it, must be equal and balanced....
and he doesn't do that.....

for a person to be judge means a person is to be judge
on the strength and improvement one brings to the systems
to which they belong.... Let us look at say, Jesus.... he
brought about values of love and peace and hope...
he improved the system he lived in......

and this is true of other leaders like Gandhi and MLK...for example.....
they brought values like love and peace and hope into their own
specific system... for values like love and hope and peace improve
a system whereas hate, violence, greed, anger, envy damages
a system, any system that values those primal, instinctual values.....
to maintain a system requires love and peace and hope and charity
to damage a system requires hate, anger, greed, violence, envy
the lower instincts damages a system.......

and here we see values at work.... what a value does to a specific
system is part of the improving a system......... values that are positive
improves a system, values that are negative damages a system......

so it all becomes tied up, transactional vs transformational actions
and values and check and balances and understanding and improving
systems.... they all interact and reinforces each other.......

so once again, we have distinct and separate ideas becoming
one and the same.........

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed May 02, 2018 7:20 pm

so let continue this look at systems and values
among other aspects....

What was the value of the enlighenment?

it brought positive values like toleration into society....
and this is important.... what values exist in society?

the Greeks brought positive values into their systems
and that is why they were so successful and also why
they failed........the values they promoted, they
didn't spread them all over Greece but did spread them
all over the world.....it gave people a positive aspect to their
lives.....and that is the value of someone like Gandhi...
he brought positive values into India.......
we look at a system and it must have positive values to survive....

a system that only has hate, anger, greed, envy is a system that will fail...
because those values are unsustainable.... but values like peace and love
and charity are sustainable values....... a marriage based on negative
values will not survive, values like hate and greed and envy and anger....
a marriage based on positive values will most likely survive....
values like love and peace and hope and charity.... those values
allows a small system like a marriage to survive and small systems
are just like big, large systems........ and the values that allow
a large system to succeed must also be positive values.......
and this is another reason why IQ45 is a failure....
he is about the negative values of hate, anger, greed.....
values that will damage a system and possibly destroy a system...

we must to sustain our current system incorporate positive
values and move away from, avoid negative values......

the values that are needed in any system are positive values.....
the values to make a person a successful person are positive

actions that are needed are not transactional values but
transformational values... positive values.....it is not enough
to maintain the status quo but you must engage in the system
to create positive values that are essential to allowing the
system to survive and grow.... for any system, growth is an
essential aspect of a system......individual as well as across
a system, we must grow..... that is an essential part of being human....
learning to become a better human being as we get older.....
learning to be a more vital aspect of being part of a system....
to be a positive part of a system, and not a negative part
of a system...for us to survive as individuals, we must
be part of a system and we are part of many, many systems..
and we must learn to be part of those systems... and part
of who we are and who we can become, happens within
those many systems... thus the Greeks felt that to become
a "true" human being, can only occur within the polis, the city..
a system.....that was an essential part of the Greek knowledge...
how to be part of the polis.....you can only become within that
system and it as it is true for the Greeks, it is true for us......

and to be part of that system, you must engage within that
system and to be an effective part of that system, you need
to bring with you, positive values.....which helps a system
maintain and grow... which is part of the system.....
maintaining AND growing........and only by positive values can
we do so......

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed May 02, 2018 7:52 pm

and what of the values of the industrial revolution?

I see those values as being negative and the events
of the 20th century seem to prove my thesis....

the values of the industrial revolution seem to be
negative in regards to how we see ourselves...
we are not just a means to profits/money....
the industrial/ capitalism values are nihilistic....
they negate human values like love and hope
and charity because those values don't improve
or increase profits.....the industrial/capitalistic values
are negative values....they don't improve who we are...
they are values that devalue us.....

I am not a machine that functions best when on the clock or
treated transactionally instead of transformationally......

if you want to engage with the best of me... that part
is the part that is positive and transformational....
not transactional or negative....and the same is true of
everyone.... for I am everyone........it is not about the "I"
but about the "US"....... WE THE PEOPLE..... not, me the one.....

I recall reading long ago the saying...

"Man is born free and everywhere he is in chains"

he is in chains because man is treated with negative values
and treated transactionally...instead of having positive values
and being treated transformationally......

the chains are the chains of the industrial revolution where
we are treated with negative values and transactionally.....

it is time for the postmodern world to begin and that beginning
comes once we return to positive values and treat people
transformationally.... and we act and behave transformationally......
not because of someone's leadership but because it is the right thing to do.....

we must act not with leadership but with an understanding of what is best
for us and society...... and that is with values that are positive and in
a transformational setting.......not with rewards and punishment style
of transactional actions and behavior but with the beginning of, becoming who
we are....transformational behavior and actions.........

we become the leaders we want others to be.......
we lead by engaging in transformational behavior and actions.....

it is not about finding the leadership to lead us out of this crisis...
but about finding what is best about us and letting that lead us
out of this crisis.......we engage personally and by that we lead
others...... by that I mean, that the battle to become human
is a personal one....I am engage with myself....but within that
battle comes a better person.. one who leads by example......

who are we? we are people who have the example of positive
values... and all we have to do with simply act upon those positive
values in our own lives....with ourselves and with others......

the path is clear... we simply have to follow it.......
do we have the courage?

that is the question?

do you have the courage to become who you are?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri May 04, 2018 5:46 pm

let us continue to think about this.....

We have the enlightenment which wanted to free us from
our myths, habits, prejudices and superstitions... but why?

because of the understanding that those myths and habits and prejudices,
superstitions are chains upon one's soul....they bound one to certain
actions and beliefs... for example, if I accept the myth of Christianity,
then I am bound to act as a Christian.... accept those precepts that make
one a Christian.....I am not free in my actions for Jesus clearly says, that
the way, the only way to the father is through him, through Jesus.......
so I become limited in my beliefs and actions if I truly understand and
accept Christianity.......that belief becomes a chain upon my soul and body....

the path to god for a Christian is a narrow and slim path.....
it doesn't allow for freedom of choice....it doesn't allow for deviation from
that path.... any deviation means one may not be able to enter the kingdom of god.....
and that is clearly the end game of any Christian..... to reach heaven......
any other goal besides that goal is not Christian....... simple as that......

following ism's and ideologies means that one is not free to act freely.....
for example, if I call myself a capitalist and I call for socialize medicine,
am I a capitalist or am I as socialist? most people would, correctly, call
me a socialist......it doesn't matter what we call ourselves if we act
on certain principles that denies or works against what we call ourselves......

in other words, ism's and ideologies and myths and habits and prejudices
and superstitions act as something that narrows and defines one's path....

to have a ism's or a prejudice is to have one's path narrowed....
you must follow or have the prejudice or ism as your guide....
this is nothing more then when vacation and you have a map and you see your destination
on that map but your journey is clearly drawn on the map... you have no choice
but to go to that destination but by that guide...... so,
you have a map of Christianity and you know your goal/destination of
getting to heaven... but your journey must follow one path and one path only....
for you to reach heaven....you have no choice on which path to follow if you
are a Christian......that is what ism's and ideologies and habits and prejudices
and superstitions force you to do.... they clearly mark out the path you must follow....
to have a superstition or prejudice or an ism is to have your path marked out by

to become human, fully human... our path must not be so marked out....
for the road to becoming human is ill-defined and often unmarked.....

with the removal of every myth or prejudice and superstition and ism comes
a freedom to act... and it is in that freedom to act, that frightens people....
a myth acts like a straightjacket on a person....it limits mobility and action..
this is true of myths, habits and prejudices and ism's and ideologies... they are
straightjackets that confine our path and our actions and our destinations...

so to be transactional in our actions is to follow the myths and habits and
prejudices of that time, organization, country, lifestyle....
remember transactional actions are focused on the use of rewards and punishments
in order to achieve compliance from followers.... transactional behavior is about
the efficiency of established routines and procedures and are more concerned
with following existing rules then with making changes in the structure of the
organization....so to be transactional is to be with myths and habits and
prejudices and superstitions... to be with ism's, is to be with transactional actions
and transactional behavior embraces and promote

to have myths and superstitions and habits and ism's is to engage in
transactional actions and behavior........that is to engage in the lower level
of human needs....in transactional actions/behavior is to remain with the
lower level of human engagement...to remain with the food and hate and
anger and lust... the base level of human actions and affairs.....

to become transformational.. is to engage with the higher level of
level of human possibilities.... to engage with love and peace and hope
and charity...... to engage with the higher possibilities of being human....
not the lower level......to engage with transactional behavior and actions is
to engage with the lower level part of being human, the instinctual level.....
to engage with transformational level is to engage with the higher level of
being human......

this lower level is the path of habits and prejudices and superstitions
and ism's and ideologies and myths.......to engage with myths is to engage
with transactional actions or behavior.....

and thus those who engage with the higher level of human possibilities
engage with the higher values of being human... that is why Gandhi
was a transformational figure because he was engaged with the higher
level of human possibilities and the higher values of being human....
he didn't engage with the current ism's and ideologies and he didn't engage with
transactional actions or behavior..... thus he wasn't concerned with increasing
the efficiency of established routines and procedures and he wasn't concerned with
following the existing rules....and he wasn't concerned with other transactional
actions or behavior like emphasizing goals and efficiency of operation and he
didn't concern himself with any increase of productivity in people......
he was concerned with freeing India but also concerned with freeing
people from their myths and habits and prejudices and superstitions and ism's
and ideologies that tied their souls down to certain actions or beliefs or certain
goals....to become free of a myth is to become free of action and possibility....

to remove the chains that bind us to myths and ism's and prejudices superstitions...
is to free us to greater possibilities and actions... it is transformational to become
free of habits and myths and ism's and ideologies... because those myths tied us
down to already set starting points, journey's and destinations/goals....
remove the chains of ism's and myths to is to free us to new possibilities
and actions... with new starting points, new possible journeys and new
goals and destinations......

to say, I am a Cristian is to say, I am bound, tied down to a certain set of
principles and actions with only one course of action and only one goal/destination....

become free of ism's and ideologies and myths and habits to become free to act
as one see's fit and as one needs to act in a given environment..... which is of course
how evolution happens... the person/animal that can best survive and pass on their
genome in a given environment is the winner in the game of evolution and life......

so being tied down to a given ism's or habits hurts people from being able to
freely change and adapt in a given environment..... by being tied down
by any given ism or ideology or myth or prejudice means having one's
chances to adapt to or change reduced....the ism creates a
straightjacket that prevents one from being able to adapt and change
in a changing environment......it is as if the Dinosaurs went extinct because
of their ism's and habits and prejudices and superstitions prevented them
from changing and adapting to changing conditions in their environment.....
that lead to them becoming extinct..... they were unable to adapt or change
because they were so tied down, chained down to ism's and ideologies
and habits and prejudices that they weren't able to adapt......and they died out.......

think about that when you proclaim yourself a Christian or a capitalist or even
a socialist.....what are you committing yourself to? and can you change and adapt
to the ever changing conditions we find ourselves in......to hold on to a myth
or habit even in the face of new evidence or changing conditions makes you,
a Dinosaur.... nothing more......

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri May 04, 2018 6:40 pm

now one may claim, that by following that path of finding
out who we are, we are unleashing chaos and anarchy and devastation
all over society.......but we are not... if we remember that we belong,
to a series of systems....we have small personal system like the family
and we have large impersonal systems like capitalism and the solar system....
we must remember that we must act in such a manner that allows the system
in question to survive.... we cannot act in an irresponsible manner creating
anarchy and chaos for example, in our family life and still expect to
have a family......actions still have consequence...... but we can find
our new path, our new goal and destination and still hold a place
in our current systems...........the two idea's, that of discovering who
we are and that of keeping the system/systems operating are not exclusive..
they can work together and work quite well together.......

if we find out who we are and try to hide that, we become alienated
from ourselves, so we must become who we are and still hold our place
in the universe/systems together.....I didn't say it would be easy however.....

as we change and discover who we are, truly are... we change and in that change
comes the new paradigm of who we are and the system must be adapted.... (there is that word again)
to the new vision of who we are... and we must adapt to the new system...... it is a continuous
yin and yang of change creating more change which creates more change.....
and we must adapt to each change.....both within ourselves and within
the system...... we must become Zen and then after the mountains dance
and the sea becomes violent and the river overflows its banks.... the
after Zen where the mountains are stable and the sea calm and river
returns to its banks..... that is us..... and once we settle down
to after Zen..... we can calmly make the changes we need to make
to our systems to adapt to the new conditions we find ourselves in.....

the process is ever changing and ever moving and we must learn
to harness and adapt to those changes.....

so, what am I suggesting?

it is simple, instead of adapting new ism's or ideologies
or myths or prejudices, we begin with the values that drive
our myths and ism's and ideologies.....

we begin with human values.. values that are the upper
level of possibilities of being human....

we begin with values like love and peace and hope and
charity.... the higher values...... and we approach
our lives and our systems and our world with these
higher values instead of ism's or ideologies or myths
or prejudices or superstitions.....or values that promote
the lower understanding of what it means to be human....

instead of approaching the world with hate and violence
and capitalism and communism and other ism's and ideologies
and myths and habits.....

we approach the world/systems beginning with love and peace
hope and charity ......among other higher values we can name......
we don't attack the world with ism's and myths, but with values
like justice and equality and love..... the values that give our lives
meaning.... that is the new paradigm.... we begin with values
and those values represent the higher vision of what it means to be human....

we begin with understanding that we can act with instincts or we can
act with conscious choice and choose the higher values.....
and then approach the many systems we live in with these higher values...
try to create change, if needed, with the higher values we have....

we don't try to engage in transactional actions which means supporting
the status quo but we engage in transformational actions which transform
and change the current us, who we are, and our systems.....

it is not enough to say, the system is corrupt and wrong...
we must also act like a doctor and prescribe a cure...
and the cure in our case is......... an understanding of
what it means to be human and what are our possibilities as
human and then engage in those values that are our higher possibilities ......
love and peace and hope and justice and equality and that is how we approach
the world... not with ism's or habits or ideologies or prejudices or superstitions..
but we values.....values we need to help us become a better system and
helps the many systems we are part of, becoming better....
we focus on values like justice and equality and peace and love
and not on ism's, ideologies and hate and violence or prejudices or myths
or superstitions......

we free ourselves from our chains of ism's and hate and violence and ideologies
myths.........and we become who we are......with love and justice and peace.....

am I understood?

does it even matter?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri May 04, 2018 7:40 pm

so we don't approach the world via lower level instincts
and we don't approach the world via myths and habits and
ism's and ideologies... but we approach the world via
higher human values like love and peace and hope
and justice and equality....

so, how does this work?

we know, that certain systems to work have to have certain values,
but other systems values are irrelevant....an example is the system
I call, my marriage..... negative values like hate, anger, greed, violence
damages and can even destroy that system called marraige...... but
other values, positive values like love and peace and hope
and justice and equality help that system called, my marriage....
and you can name quite a few systems that are improve
and engage with better with positive values like love,
and hope and charity and justice and equality....
the system called Kropotkin... as a system, I am improved
by and helped with positive values like love and peace and charity
justice and equality.....

the system called Kropotkin is harmed by and damaged by values
like hate and anger and greed and violence as with other negative values....

but not all systems react with values, negative or positive....

the solar system for example, a very important system we need to survive
is indifferent and really, really, really doesn't care about peace or hope or
love or justice or equality... all the solar system is about is gravity
how the equation of gravity keeps the system going and in nice round circles
for ever....love won't ever help the solar system maintain its system....

but love will help biological systems like the human body and love
will help social systems like our society and our culture, the system
called the USA.....love will help the U.S far more then hate and violence
and anger and greed... the positive values improves and helps maintain
social systems like society and culture and civil society like a democracy
or an economic system like capitalism.....because capitalism is driven by
negative values like greed and envy and jealousy.... negative values
will at some point destroy a social structure like a society or a civil society.....

so an understanding of the system in question can help one key in on
what values are necessary or even what values won't bother to even help a
given system like the solar system... where values are unimportant....they
aren't needed in a system like the solar system....but values are needed
in a system like a social system like marriage or society at large......
and values that are positive are of greater value
to a society and to an individual then negative values like hate and anger.....

transformational understanding of our actions will help us become
positive values like love and justice and peace.....and that is the ultimate
goal.... not to hold these positive values like love and peace and justice but
to become those positive values....not just to hold, but to become values...

every step leads us to another step.....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 07, 2018 12:47 am

the wife and I are on vacation this week.... we are in Truckee California...
which is about 15 miles north of Lake Tahoe.... we are in the mountains...
our condo is at 7000 feet or so...

we are high in the sky and surrounded by tree's with lovely weather....
we are in nature.....

but what does that mean? we have to be careful with our food because
we have a problem with bears in this neck of the woods..and we have
rodents and birds and sorts of nature.... all you have to do is look out of the
window and see the tree's and mountains...

so, once again, what does this mean?

nature is just nature... is isn't evil or good or determine to
destroy us... nature just is........we exist as part of nature.....
and our actions are building condo's and the like.. aren't necessarily
bad or good, they just are....so what do we need to understand?

that our existence in nature is also about balance... an equation....
we can build to a point and then we must stop... for we must allow
nature to have its land and sea and water and air....

we cannot take over so much of nature that we don't leave room
for animals or birds or tree's..... their right to existence is just as
clear and present as our right to existence......

we must give an equation to how much building we can do and
how much land we can squander and how much air, land and sea,
we can pollute before it becomes too much.....

balance and an equation... not only works for our life, but it
works for the things we do, the actions we take, we must leave room
for nature to do its thing and that is the balance I am talking about....
yes, we can build condo's on mountain tops, but we must balance it out
with plenty of land for tree's and animals and rivers and lakes......
if we take too much of the land and pollute the land, air and sea,
we create a loss of balance and like the man who doesn't have balance
in his life, it threatens the system, man in one case and nature
in the other case....we must balance out what our actions are....
we must keep the equation between man and nature.....
otherwise we threaten both....any system overwhelmed with
too much of anything becomes lopsided and unbalanced and
is threaten with a shutdown......

if nature isn't allowed its equation, its balance, then that
system, nature becomes lopsided and unbalanced and is threatened......

if we fail to maintain a balance with nature, we unbalanced our own
system and we are in danger of doing just that.......

human beings need nature... as much as we need our basic needs
of food and water and clothing and shelter because without those
basic need that nature creates like food and water and breathable air....
our systems, political, economic, culturally and our very own, personal
system called Kropotkin is threatened....... every tree that is cut down
must be balanced with another tree planted... you cut down too many
tree's, you have an unbalanced nature and the system is in danger of failing....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Dan~ » Mon May 07, 2018 1:40 am

That's common sense, P.K.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 07, 2018 5:49 pm

Dan~ wrote:That's common sense, P.K.

K: ahhhhhhh, it is not so simple.....
it becomes a question of competing values, competing goods as one might say.....

the developer who builds condo's wants to built lots and lots and lots of condo's
because that is how he makes his money....

so for him, the value of money/profits, outweigh the need for balance
in the system or any other possible public good....
it becomes a question of whose values are given priority...
the developer or me? and it is clear from the massive building
going on in this country that the value that has priority is
pursuit of money/profit over having nature or having any balance with
nature..... the equation becomes money first and everything else second,
a very distant second....that drive for profit, to build the condo's that
destroy bears habitat or destroys a beautiful meadow.... and by destroying
that bears habitat or the beautiful meadow, we unbalance the entire system...
every action must be balanced by an equal and opposite reaction.....
that is the rule of physics.... every action has an equal and opposite reaction....

and failure to protect our forest and our meadows leads us to an equal and
opposite action........ now one may protest that that equation,
every action has an equal and opposite reaction... is a physics equation....
but it can be applied to other matters beside physics...... just as equations
can be applied to a great many things.....

so we have competing goods, the drive to profits and the equal drive to protect
the system we live in for the greater good of everyone....not just an private
drive to profit but an equal drive to protect EVERYONE....which is system
thinking..... what action/actions promotes and protects the system?

building one set of condo's on the hillside won't destroy the balance or destroy
the system... but miles after miles after miles of condo's do unbalance the system...
and those building create an equation that threaten all of us.......

so, how can we decide or figure out, what is the balance or what is the equation
we use to decide if and when do we build condo's?

let us follow the argument a bit and then perhaps we can see......

if we don't build condo's, then people have no where to go and that builds
up resentment and possible inequality in the system which might threaten it...
just like the French Revolution was driven by those who had nothing and had
nothing to lose when they began that revolution......

the real problem is not about building condo's or where to build them....
the real problem lies in the fact that there are too many people....
our very numbers challenges the entire equation between the ability
to feed and clothe and shelter the number of people we have and the number
of people we have......

in other words, we can easily feed and clothe and shelter a million people...
we can easily feed and clothes and shelter a billion people...
but at 7 billion people and rising, we challenge the resources we need
to be able to take care of those 7 billion people......

it is an equation... the amount of resources the earth has and the
number of people we have....does the earth have enough resources to
take of all of us AND take care of all those creatures that exist on earth?

to allow massive amount of resources to be in the hands of a small amount of people
instead of in the hands of the people means that if we have food enough to 10 billion
people but a small number of people own 7 billion amount of food, the reality
is, that everyone is fighting over 3 billion amount of food... this is very, very
badly said, but it points to a truth...if we allow income inequality to dominate
the political system, we set the stage for an revolution, just like the French revolution....
so in this private vice of acquiring goods we set the stage for two separate
issues.... first of all, this drive for money/profit creates an unbalance
income inequality which threatens us and secondly, we are using up
resources to build stuff that exists only to make money... resources
are not unlimited...we cannot accumulate resources thinking that
those resources are unlimited and we can continue this forever....

the equation is simple, we have a finite amount of resources
and we have to stretch those resources to accommodate everyone
and all creatures great and small...and the forest and the meadows.....

unfettered capitalism is unsustainable which passes beyond the simple
remark that saving nature is common sense.... it becomes an issue
of competing goods and an understanding that resources are limited....

several factors come into play here, beyond just common sense....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed May 09, 2018 5:00 pm

wrote a long post yesterday and gone....very dicey internet up
in the mountains....

so we have conflicting goods/values....one wants money, one wants
love, another wants justice and another safety... how do we decide which value
is the values we are to follow as a system/culture/state? what criteria are we to use
to first, evaluate our values and second, which values are "the" values we are to follow....

as with any journey, it depends on where we are and where we are going....
plus any analysis requires an understanding of our current situation....

we have many focused on values that aren't appropriate to our current situation....
to make money/profit isn't appropriate to our current situation.....
we are facing a multitude of situations that exist beyond just money/profits...

to ensure my post makes it, I will post and begin next post...

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed May 09, 2018 5:13 pm

to continue:

for example, the problem that lies behind all the buildings and the use
of resources is a growing population...a population growing out of control...
that is the real problem, overpopulation.....we must first grapple with
overpopulation and solving that helps with the massive overbuilding
and destroying nature....

but once again we have conflict between values....
the word of god says,

"be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth
and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds
in the sky and every living thing that moves on earth"

that precept has damaged the earth because it became unbalanced,
it doesn't fit into the equation when too many people are on planet earth
and we have too few resources....so this question of values must be
understood in context of the current situation.......we can also create
change with our use of values....we must use values that fit the situation...
for example, we might have an home invasion... love as a value might
solve that situation but more likely violence will be needed to solve it...
the situation dictates the values needed.....

again, post in a bit...

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed May 09, 2018 5:28 pm

ummmm, thinking about this... I may be going about it the wrong way....

perhaps, the difference between modern values and pre-modern values
is the fact that there was less values to fight over, perhaps...or just
that in the "Modern" era we have more values then previously....
perhaps, because of the industrial revolution, we have become more aware
of values... as our values have become negated and invalidated because
of the industrial revolution.......we have come to see what values are really
important........or perhaps the enlightenment has created a new understanding
of values that the industrial revolution then tried to negate.....

so we have a new understanding of values and then people decide or choose
to honor this value or that value...... perhaps the real modern problem
is we don't conflict resolution between values.... no one may argue we
have the court system... but as we have seen justice/equality is no longer
blind and is bought and sold to the highest bidder....... so how do we
have real conflict resolution between values? maybe that is the question
of the modern times? how do we resolve values conflicts?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed May 09, 2018 5:44 pm

in thinking about this, values were dictated by authority, tradition,
canonical words........ people didn't create their own values....
values were given to them by other sources...... the bible speaks
of love and that value was given to man..... in the modern era, beginning
with the enlightenment, this new method was to attack the old myths
and the old habits and prejudices and the old values........ to replace
them with a new understanding....... with new values......the modern era
is about the complexity of new values...and the conflict between these new values....
so we must understand our relationship with values and what they mean to us.....
so if modernism is about the new values, then post-modern means........

and in the end, we still need a means of conflict resolution of our values,
of the debate between people about which values we should and must follow...

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu May 10, 2018 5:04 pm

still on vacation and sick as a dog... so I will call this late
night thoughts under the influence of Nyquil....

we have, what has been called the "Human condition"

but I think it should be rightly called the "Modern condition"....

what is the Modern condition?

if you think about the past, the choices or options for people
were less, far less then we have today... less choices in the values,
less choices in jobs, less choices in having a say in the society you lived in.....

less choices all the way around....

for example, the Greeks believed in Arete which is excellence, that
was their value of choice....that comes from Homer's "Iliad" and "Odyssey"

Think of the Romans, their values called, Mos maiorum, or "ancestral custom"
or "the way of the ancestors".... and I wrote about those values in an earlier post....

and the values of the middle ages.. are the Christian values we know today,
of humility and meekness and knowing one's place.... Religious values

in these three examples, there was no chance for the average person to escape
the values of the society, be it Greek or Roman or medieval.....you lived
under a small number of values and you were expected to obey these values...
because you had no choice.....

from the enlightenment comes a new awareness of values.... and how society
was driven by a small number of values...... remove myths and habits
and prejudices and superstitions comes the call of the enlightenment thinkers...
remove those values and become an independent thinker, a free human being...

and look about you today, America had a set value system which has been destroyed
by actions taken over the last 40 years and especially over the last 18 years........
what values have been driven over the last few years?

well after 9/11, when asked what the average American can do to support
America, bush Jr said, well go shopping... that was the value the president of the
united states thought was important after 9/11.......

the problem for these men/women of limited thought is that the genie has
been released from the bottle.... we see a multitude of values that are possible....
we have far more choices then the average Greek or Roman or man of the Medieval
period....choices in jobs, choices in values, choices in sexuality..........

the human condition is about choices and we have many choices which
is why I say the human condition is really the modern condition........

we have conflict today between the modern/scientific values
and the religious values and between various religious values
have conflict and we don't have a means of resolving these values
conflicts..... whereas in the ancient world, they had means to resolve
values conflicts, the church and/or the state would resolved value
conflicts.....when we see the church or state attacking a group of
people, for example the Medieval church would attack and or destroy
a movement I can't think of their names right now, but the church destroyed
several groups of people who espoused different values then the official church

but we don't do that today.... we celebrate all values, as we should...
but the modern condition makes us wonder which values are the values
we should be holding.........

and how should we decide?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu May 10, 2018 10:58 pm

we have literally hundreds of values we can focus on....

I have listed some of them, just some of them...and we have hundreds more to
think about... but what is the big deal about values?

values are what give your life meaning and values give you some basis
for actions... should I help that old man cross the street?
values gives you the answer...at its heart, values tell us
what is the meaning of our actions.......without values,
how do we know how to act? values give us purpose of action....

I love my wife and so I bring home some flowers...

love is the value here and bringing home flowers are the action.....
think of bringing home flowers without the value of love.......
it doesn't make much sense now does it.....

we sent troops to Iraq.... and on what value basis would we do such a thing?

values justify our actions.....

upon what values do you justify your life?

the right values and we can stabilize the system.....

values are the heart of our systems...... our man made systems....

"democracy" as a statement is full of values....

but the question becomes, what is the end result of democracy?

is there an end game with democracy? what is the goal? what is the destination
of democracy? as a system is democracy a better system then other political systems,
say, monarchy, communism, dictatorship, republic..... what values do these political
system promote and how well do they function as systems? that is the question...

the question of values and the question of values within any given political system
and do those values help keep the system in question stronger or weaker... more stable
or less stable, do the values in question keep the system balanced and in some equation?

for a system without values that don't maintain the system, that is a recipe for failure...
and what values do we promote in the U.S today? do those values help maintain
and keep the system balanced and in a equation? I say no......

what do you say?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon May 14, 2018 3:11 am

I am home but still sick as a dog and under lots
of drugs, so lets see how well this goes.....

in thinking about those who fear technology and AI,
but the same people often praise capitalism.....

now the problem lies with the idea of the private vices
creating public good that is capitalism...
but they fear the growth of technology and AI and want them to
be controlled, limited in their uses and in some cases, banned....

but what is the exact difference between allowing capitalist free sphere,
outside of government control and those who engage in technology and AI
and Transhumanism? why can't those who engage in transhumanism and technology
also practice private vices for the public good? doesn't the same argument that is
right for capitalism also work for those who deal with technology and transhumanism
and AI? if you allow a capitalist to do his thing without any government control or
regulations, then why not allow those who engage with transhumanism or technology
or AI, to go about their business without government control or regulations?

the argument seems to me, to be the same...

now personally, I am in favor of government control and regulations of
both capitalism AND those who engage in technology, transhumanism and

I just don't see how you can separate them... either they are both free of
governmental regulations or, or they are both under the government regulations......

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Dan~ » Mon May 14, 2018 3:49 am

but they fear the growth of technology and AI and want them to
be controlled, limited in their uses and in some cases, banned....

I was talking to a friend about teleportation technology in the future.

I said because it could teleport drugs or weapons, the government would try to control it, and suppress it.

This principle of miss-use applies to basically all technologies in the futuristic sense of the word.
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