a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:05 pm

Pneumatic-Coma. Yet, I have a question for Peter, have you ever heard of the Heinz dilemma?

K: I did some research on this and reject it...it is a false dilemma.....

my entire point is that the druggist has responsibility...
not all the responsibility lies with Heinz.. and this is the basic
problem with capitalism....this dilemma exposes the problem with
our modern society and capitalism......... the druggist thinks
only of his needs and his greed and his selfishness... and
the failure within society lies with the druggist and those who
support greed and envy and lust......... the path of the druggist
is the path to failure.....until we understand that, we too are heading
toward failure....it is a question of values and the druggist is following
the wrong values and in this, society has failed for supporting the druggist...
instead of supporting life...... and this is the point... in this instance,
society and the druggist has put money ahead of life.... the money
the druggist is going to make is put before Heinz wife.....

to support the druggist is to support money/profits over life...
and that is wrong......and a societial failure......

that is the true lesson to be learned here..... not some phony
understanding of what Heinz should do, but what society should
do about the druggist and what he stands for....that is the real
question here...... is it right for the druggist to
engage in selfish behavior over the live and death of Heinz's wife?
that is the only question this dilemma offers.... what about the druggist?
that is the question.... for an answer there tells us about what Heinz should
do.........what are the values of the druggist? and start there.....


Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:15 pm

upon further reflection, see what the druggist values are
and see what Heinz values are.......

Heinz is acting from love of his wife.. he wants to save her life....
he is acting nobly and honorable, doing anything he can to save her...

and what is the values of the druggist? he is acting from greed and lust
and thinking only about what is best for him regardless of the cost.....
and the cost is a person's life and he doesn't care... it is all about profit
for the druggist... nothing else matter's....what a perfect story about
capitalism and it effect on people's life.... and the cost of capitalism
on Heinz's wife and on Heinz.......

if you focus on Heinz, you miss the point of the story..
focus on the druggist and you see the point....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:35 pm

let us look at this story from another standpoint....

the law is totally with the druggist and not with Heinz...
the law is following Locke and Hume and other thinkers
who believe that the point of the law is to protect property...
and yet here the law is wrong... it is protecting an inanimate
object before life....it is putting property before a person's life.....

the law is wrong..... when it protect property before life

what values are named when the law protects property
before life? certainly not the higher laws of love and peace
and life.... here the law protects the lower instincts of greed
and lust, envy......why should a law protect a person's greed
before life? why is the individual greed and lust protected before
a human beings life? the very law is about values and here
the law is protecting the wrong values.... and the wrong person....

life before property...... life before money/profits......

and the law should reflect this......

as the laws are made by human beings whose values are warped by
greed and lust... perhaps the laws should be amended to reflect
life before property..........but those in whose best interest is
all about property and money won't ever allow laws that
put life above their own personal interest which is property
and money before human beings and life...... Nihilism at
its best....the negation of the human beings and their values
by the lower values of greed.....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:36 pm

a reevaluation of values...... of life before money/profits
of life before property....... of the human being before nihilism....


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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:50 pm

I am working this out as I go, so bare with me....

any understanding of life begins with the simple thought, I will die....

the young don't believe it and the old try to pretend it isn't there....
and when I die, what can I take with me? nothing....
born into the world naked, die out of the world naked...

many hold to the thought of some god or heaven or even hell.....
but I cannot know that...I cannot experience it before it happens....
the more likely explanation is death is just like falling asleep...
conscience one moment and then nothing..........

I exist as one of several billion people.....
I am not unique or one of a kind.... I am simply another.....
a long line of humans existed before me... and I can only assume
that a long line of humans will exists after me.....but I cannot know.....

when making a journey, one must not only have the starting point,
but one must have the destination, the goal in mind.....
and no matter where we start, the end is going to be death.....

this must be where we begin our understanding of life...
that life must end.. not all life, just my life......

so in light of this... what values should I hold?

I cannot take "it" with me, whatever "it" is....
so, no matter what I do, it is temporary......
no matter what I build, it is temporary.....
no matter how much I buy or sell, it is temporary....

the massive consumption that fuels our current existence,
it won't change my existence because it too, is temporary....

I suffer personal losses... family, friends, loved ones... they too will die
and I must grieve... but I still exist.... until it is my time....

cars and couches and TV and refrigerators, books, stoves,
water bottles, wife's and daughters all come and go from our life.......

and yet, I still exists...until it is my time....

we search for the permanent because nothing is permanent......

so what should my values be in a world that has its individual pieces
come and go... individual pieces like cars and couches and tree's and human beings.....

I cannot influence the past.... it can only impact me...time flows in only one
direction.....

I cannot change the right here and right now because it would be like
trying to stop the earth in mid rotation....I cannot.....

so what is left is, from here on.....

from this moment to the next....I can change that......

so, we must understand that the immediate present I cannot change,
but I can change from this second into the future.......

so we must devote our energies from this moment into the future...

and once again we ask... what values should we hold from this moment into
the future?

the next question becomes, what do I care about future generations once
I am gone? I am gone... why should I care what happens after I am dead.....

if, if we admit the fact that we cannot take it with us....whatever
it is, then we can understand, that our possessions, that our own personal
goals, that everything about us, is gone...... then what is left?

the fact is, that my own personal existence has no point by itself...
were I to disappear in the next 2 minutes, few would notice
and after a while, few would remember me...so given this....

what should my values be?

the only way, the only possible way, my existence would have
any value, of any kind is by the continuation of the human species.....

if the human species ended, then my life and your life and Descartes life
and anybody else you can think of, would have no value....

to understand the value of human life doesn't mean the value
of our cars and couches and TV's and stoves.... the value of human existence
lies with something other then our material possessions........
for material possessions come and go...... we have had 10 different couches
in the time my wife and I have been married...... it doesn't matter what kind
of couch we have... the value arises in the fact that we are the matter that
continues to exists... what that means is, my wife and I are the only
aspect that remained the same after so many couches.... we are the
continuity, not the couches.... our human lives... which presided over
so many couches..... it that which remains has the value, not the
material objects itself for they come and go........

so, it is not my life that has the value, for I am another one who will
die and as every single person alive now... will die
it is not our individual lives that matter... we are simple the couches
that come and go... but that which continues has the value....
the only thing that will continue is the existence of human beings...
after me, will come billions more... that is the continuation of human existence
and that is the meaning of life..... not the individual, but the species...
that which remains has the value.....

think of human existence as a river... and I am just one drop in
the long flowing river... the value is not the one drop but
in the continuation of the river.... and we must have values
that allow the river to continue to flow...... those are the values
we must hold.......

now is that river specifically American or catholic or white
or gay... no, look at a river, you cannot see the individual
drops of water.. it doesn't matter if the drops of water
are shades of gray or black or believes in this ism or that ism....
you can only see the river.. the flow of the water....
that is the human species.... stand far enough away
and you cannot see the individual drops....you cannot see me....
and I exist within that river and soon, I shall no longer be a part
of that river.. but if the river continues to exist... then I
have played some role in keeping the river flowing... a very small
part granted, but a part nevertheless.......

our values must be values that allow the river to continue to flow...
our values must be values that allow the human species to continue on....
but we don't exist within a vacuum... we exist within a system...
the human race is tied to and connected to the earth... we are a part
of the earth and the earth is part of us..... we cannot separate out
which is earth and which is human.......human beings
exist as part of a river of life that has flowed for over 2 billion years....

look at that river... do you see the human race? no, you just see a river
of life... all life flows in that river.... like the mighty Mississippi....
as it flows down from Minnesota to the gulf of Mexico.... you cannot
see any individual part of the river.. you cannot see any individual
drops of water... you can only see the river as a whole....
and that whole is also the whole of life as it flows down...
and when it reaches the gulf of Mexico, it doesn't just disappear....
it flow into the gulf where it becomes part of an even larger body of water...

can you tell the specific water that came from the Mississippi from
the water that flowed from the Missouri river or the water that
flowed from the Amazon river or the water that has been there
all along? no, if you look over a large body of water, you see WATER,
but you don't any individual water, any drops of water.... you see
water as it reflects the sun light...and you see the waves and you
might see the birds and sea life as it moves above and on and below
the water..... we are that sea... we are the individual part of the water
and we are part of the sea as it flows to an ever bigger sea

we individual parts of the human existence flow into life itself
we are the Mississippi and we flow into life itself which is the
gulf of Mexico which connects into ever larger bodies of water.....
life.... the tree's and grass and birds and plants and dogs
and elephants and the air itself... all parts of the sea of life
which flows into an ever bigger sea which is the earth.....

does that river of life take note of the color of the drops of water
or the sex of the drops of water or the religion or wealth of those drops of water....

no, it doesn't matter in that river or sea what the individual drops do
or feel or believe in or hold sacred...... what matters is the river or
the sea.......the individual drops are just that, individual drops....
and it doesn't matter if the drop are American or white or catholic
or not religious at all.... that is why the debate over what beliefs
we should have or what country is the greatest or if some colors
are superior to other colors... it just doesn't matter.........if we are
just drops in the river of life.... who cares that America is the greatest
country on earth.....because America at one point didn't exist...
and at some point in the future will no longer exist.......
religions come and go... as the believers in Ra......can't find any, can you....
and did the greatness of the Aztec's count for much today?

all those we things we take very seriously, like country and religions
and faith and color of the race... really doesn't matter because
in the end, they all just flow into each other and become something
else......a river flowing down to the sea.....

take the long picture of life and our petty arguments over
race, creed, sex, color don't amount to anything....

does the river care if two drops of water are fighting over which
belief is the "right" belief?

take the long term view of the species and much
of what we do, no longer makes any sense.....

think about the world after you die....

did it matter that you got some promotion or
a raise or fell down and broke you arm? or believed
in this god or this country or in the purity of race?

no, it doesn't matter..... so what beliefs should you hold?

what should your values be?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:06 am

the problem is we see everything and feel everything up close....
we see everything as huge and what we see takes up our viewpoint.....

but stand a little further away and things begin to gain perspective...

stand on the earth and it looks like it is everything... there is nothing
else but the earth....

be on a ship right outside the earth's orbit and the earth looks so large...
it fills the entire sky........

be on the moon and the earth still looks large... but can you see
of the earths features we travel so far to see? Can you see the miracle
mile of Chicago? or pier 39 in San Francisco? or perhaps big ben in London?
or the Effiel tower in Paris.....we travel for thousands of miles to see these things..
I know I have... and they look so large but travel some miles away from earth
and you can't even see them anymore.........

the U.S spends billions of dollars on the defense budget... can you see that
from outer space? no, we spend time and money and effort of building
massive things and get a few miles away from earth and you can't even see them....

travel to mars and the earth begins to look very small......

travel to Jupiter and try to find the earth..... it will be the small blue
dot very, very far away.....you can't see the oceans or the massive
continents like Asia or North America.... you can't make anything out on
earth that far away in space......all that stuff we live and die for...
you can't see the rocks we fight and die for...you can't see the money
that millions are willing to kill for..... none of that matters when
you can barely see earth....

America is number one... American is number one....

does that even matter when you can't even see America?

these things look so large and huge and worth living for...
......worth dying for.........

are they? put some distance between you and the earth and
very little seems to be that important.....

we can't see all those billions of humans living on earth from so far away....
fighting and dying and lusting and being greedy and loving......
does any of that matter when you are so far away?

it isn't about what we have or don't have...

it is about our place viewing what we have or don't have......

I have heard of people being killed over tennis shoes....

you need those so badly... take mine..... shoes.....

are worth living over or fighting over or dying over?

stand on another planet and tell me that tennis shoes have
any value at all.... become old and what becomes important
is not money at all.... it is time that becomes important....
because we have less time and that is why time becomes more
important then money.........so much of what I did when
I was young, no longer matters to me....it is a waste of time..
it was a waste of time.... and time is the one thing I don't have a lot
of.......depending on where one stands, shows us what is important....

my viewpoint decides what becomes important to me.....

stand next to a wall and that wall becomes the largest thing in sight....

stand next to the empire state building and that becomes the largest thing in sight.....

can you see the wall from the moon? can you see the empire state building from the moon?

what looks like the most devastating thing that has ever happened to a human being....
can't even be seen from the sky.......stand on the moon and the boundaries
that we fight over and kill over and spend billions upon, can't even be seen....

the problem with our lives is everything is so big up close,....
get some distance and things gain perspective.....and we gain
true wisdom and understanding.....once we get away a bit....


Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:38 pm

think values don't count for much.......

let us look at the issues and problems facing the world.....

we have, in no particular order, global warming, income inequality,
injustice, intolerance, millions without proper food or water,
millions of Americans who exist week to week and would go homeless
if they went without a paycheck during three weeks, pollution,
this is just a top of my head listing of our current issues and problems....
I suppose had I actually tried I might be able to double this list....
anyway, we have enough to start......

so let us begin with global warming....the cause of global warming
is the actions of human beings... that much cannot be doubted unless
the entire scientific community is wrong and I doubt that.....

so what drives this action of human beings that creates global warming?
the cause is simple enough, greenhouse gases... but what does greenhouse
gases have to do with values? it is the values that drive the need for the greenhouse
gases....factories driven by the value of greed, a lower instinct indeed....
cars build to increase profits of car makers sold by appealing to humans beings
ego, vanity, greed, envy....it is values that drive the actions that create greenhouse
gases.....

it is the same for pollution... companies say its too expensive to take the pollutants
out of the mixture pored into the atmosphere and it will cost profits to insure
clean air or clean water...... monetary value outweighs the damage pollution
causes the earth...... the values of greed outweigh our need to have clean air
and clean water... to have clean air and clean water might cost us some of
our GDP....

income inequality is not a problem... so says the wealthy man...and the shills
he buys to promote his wealth.....if 500 people have as much wealth
as half the world's population, that is a problem...you could print enough money
to give the half the world money enough, but all that does is create inflation and
inflation doesn't help anyone......no, if so much money is tied up in the hands
of just a small percentage of people, then millions, no billions don't have enough
resources to adequately support themselves..... it is the greed and gluttony
of the wealthy to gain ever more wealth even though the billions they have
will last dozens of lifetimes.......why should one man have billions and another
man live in poverty? justice demands that we all equally should share in
the bounty of the earth.... for the earth isn't about who owns it.... for
who can claim to own the land on earth... and yet, people do claim so....
on what grounds can we claim to own part of earth......it is nothing more
then greed that drives the biggest factor in our list of issues and problems.....
and that is the need to own... to have private property.....why does one
man have 7 houses and another man lives on the street? and the defenders
of wealth and greed bring out the old and tired defense of wealth and greed......
but they fail to bring out the real reasons for wealth... luck and the fact
is that wealth is built upon the backs of the workers in wage theft... paying
workers less then they can sell the workers efforts..... the wealth of bill gates
is built upon selling his products for more then he pays his workers....
it is the workers that build the wealth and it is the workers who then suffer,
suffer under capitalism..... workers who toil under stress and the burden of
terrible working conditions... factories and factories lite....

it is the values of greed that has created the conditions and problems
and issues that we face today in the modern world......greed and lust
and envy and hate and anger..... it is this drive to increase corporate
and individuals wealth that has damaged our planet and it inhabitants,
both human and animal....... it is values that has created
poverty and pollution and income inequality and global warming
and injustice and intolerance and all those other issues and problems
facing us today and tomorrow.........the negative values......
you want to save the earth.... replace those negative values with
positive values.... values of love, peace, justice, equality, tolerance...
and will the problems of the world vanish overnight? no, no they won't.....

but it is a start... and that is all we are aiming for right now... a start
to make life better..... you want to end the problems of the earth created
by humans... start with your values and what they mean......
then the next step is a reevaluation of those values... is the answer
to our problems really Americanism or white power or hating the Jew?

those "solutions" help create the problems we have today, they aren't solutions....
they are more of the same in the listings of what caused the issues/problems of today....

list your values and then try to understand... are those values the reason we
have such issues and problems today? for most people, the answer is yes...
the values they hold is part of the reasons for pollution and income inequality
and intolerance and injustice and global warming....... for those values drive
the actions that make it possible for these issues and problems to exist.....

what values do you hold?

are you sure?

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:18 pm

what is the goal here? what are we trying to accomplish?

individually, we cannot accomplish much.... you, me, that weird guy
in the corner.. none of us individually, can move the needle very much
either way..... but together, together we can move mountains
and we can achieve greatness and we can rise above the situation
we find ourselves in.... the issues, the problems, the pressing matters
which threaten to destroy us.......we can rise above it, if, if we
understand what will happen if we don't come together and become
one......

imagine a leader who says, what do we want to accomplish?
not what do I want to accomplish?

imagine a leader who isn't concern with transactional leadership,
but with transformational leadership.....

what great things we can achieve if we engage in the transformation
of our lives from being consumers/producers to active participants in
our lives.... from the slavery/tyranny of the economic to the freedom
of engaging in equality and justice which includes the economic and
the political.......to find ourselves, we must engage not just with who
we are and what are our possibilities, but in who we all are and what
are all our possibilities.........

freedom, true freedom is not just about one person finding freedom
and justice... but in all of us finding freedom and justice/equality.....

you want to make a better society... simply start with making America
more just....practice equality... which means, we must make
our goals to be about increasing justice and equality, not
increasing our GDP.. or increasing our own personal wealth....
the path to a better America is the path of becoming more just.....
where justice is truly blind and where equality is the standard
to follow, not wealth.........

the path to freedom, true freedom lies with the practice of
justice and equality......this means we limit income inequality...
this means we reject the politics of hate, this means we
engage in the practice of justice over the call of security...
in other words, equality and justice is a higher priority then
being safe..........so we reject the notion that we must
devote billions of dollars to the defense of the country.....

because if we don't have equality, that is where people's need
are meet, if people don't have food or water or shelter
or education or medical care, then what exactly
are we defending?

if we don't have equality and justice, then what are we defending?

the question becomes, if we don't have equality and justice,
then what is the value of society?

now some may object and say, what about freedom?
Freedom can only exist when there is justice/equality......
if we are living in an unjust/unequal society, then what is the point
of having freedom?

now some may say, in this uncertain world, we must be safe...
safe from what? I believe the greatest danger in the world lies
in the believe that safety/security is the goal of society... that
the only purpose of government is the safety/security of the people....

the point of government is to insure justice and equality and freedom,
for without those, what is the point of being safe and secure?

what do the PEOPLE want? they want jobs and well paid jobs at that,
and they want to have equality and justice and they want
their kids to have better lives then they had.....

to engage in these goals and not personal goals of increasing one's
wealth or to benefit the class in which one comes from.....
that is the point of leadership..... to engage with improving lives....
all lives, not just American's, but lives of everyone.....

to transform... to make better is the goal....
that is the goal or purpose of life.......

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:05 pm

From the Tenth federalist paper written by James Madison:

"The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man;
and we see them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity,
according to the different circumstances of civil society. A zeal for different
opinions concerning religion, concerning government and many other points,
as well of speculation as of practice, an attachment to different leaders
ambitiously contending for pre-eminence and power, or to persons of other
descriptions whose fortunes have been interesting to the human passions,
have in term divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual
animosity, and rendered them much disposed to vex and oppress each other,
then to cooperate for their common good. So strong is this propensity of
mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion
presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions, have been
sufficient to kindles their unfriendly passions, and excite their most violent
conflicts. But the most common and durable sources of factions, has been
the various and unequal distribution of property"

Madison got it right over 200 years ago.... a major source of our
factions and fighting has been the "various and unequal distribution of property"

what are we to do then? if the source of factions and fighting is in
income distribution, then what is the answer?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:31 pm

to return to an earlier point about the industrial revolution....

why is the industrial revolution a thing?

it's because it changed how we view ourselves and
how we react to our given environment.....

an example of this is simple... let us say, we agree to
a meeting with Tom for tomorrow at 12:00....we both know
when it will be 12:00... we have watches and cell phones
and stove clocks and wall clocks and we can call for the time
on our phones........ we have 2 dozen ways we can find out the time,
2 dozen easy, at least that many ways to discover what the time is....

now let us go back into time before the era of the clock...
I agree to meet with Tom... without clocks, how do we know
when to meet? I might say, when the sun is highest... but
that leaves Tom with an issue of, when is it highest?

in other words, you hear of people waiting for hours to have meetings
already set up because of the inability to know the time....
before clocks, how would you know what time to be at a meeting?

but look at today.... we have time to the second....and our lives
are governed by time..... I go into work at a set time, today its
1:45 and I work until 6:00.... I get one ten minute break....
if I am late, say I walk in at 2:00... I could get written up and
if I am late too often, I can be fired... I must take my break
at a set time, usually after 2 hours... so my break will be around
4:00.... I can only take 10 minutes... I can be written up for taken
longer then 10 minutes and too many write ups, I can be fired...
and the reason given will be stealing... I have stolen from the company
because I wasn't at my checkstand at the 10 minute mark which is
stealing time from the company....... that is literally why I would be fired....
a few years ago, a girl was fired for clocking in and then going back outside for
a few minutes to get something from her car or something like that....
she had work in my store for 19 years.... she was fired for stealing......
"stealing" time is considered a fireable offense....
something that would not have even been a discussion
before the industrial revolution........

we are suppose to be at work at a certain time, take our breaks and lunch
at a certain time, go home at a certain time.... and this use of time
wasn't even considered before the industrial revolution........

we are considered to be machines....... man as machine
in the fact that we must, must engage in work with the precision
of a machine.... we get written up if we are too late or too early
or if we don't clock in or if we go to lunch too late or if
we get overtime without permission.... any number of reasons
can get us written up and fired and all of them time related......

and this is the result of the industrial revolution.......
we are the machines..... and we must act like them.....
so we have the continuation of Descartes man as machine,
only we have taken it to the extreme.......

we have the tyranny of the time clock and that is because
of the industrial revolution..... we no longer operate
in days or hours but in minutes and in seconds.....

in my job as a checker, I am log and catalogued
by how long I spend with each customer and I am timed
as to how long it take me to ring up each order and if my
drawer is short or over...everything I do as a cashier
is subject to being filed and catalogued and timed and
if I am too slow, I can be subject to being transferred because
part of a managers bonus is based on how fast his/her staff
rings up every customer.... a slow cashier can slow down
the overall time and so to speed up a staff's time,
you transfer your slowest checker and that improves your
overall time.....and you get a bigger bonus check......

time can decide your bonus check and so a manager
is motivated to decrease a checker's time in dealing with customers....

once again, the industrial revolution focus on time and the completion
of tasks within a certain time, strikes again.....

this is one aspect of how the industrial revolution has changed
who we are and what is possible......

now note that it is not about how good we are at dealing
with customers or our interactions with staff and customers
or if we are good and decent and honest or nice people....
those values are irrelevant in the industrial age.....
the value that is important is time and the completion
of task in a set time....time is the value that is valued...
not the human beings, but time...... our human values
are negated by this need to be on time..........
if I am being written up for being late for lunch,
does it matter that I was late because I was helping a
customer or that a child fell to the ground... or any number
of reasons I was late because I am a nice person or a kind person
or a smart person or an honest person... or a person who values love
and peace.......no, those values are just not relevant because the
fact is, I was late for lunch.... and it doesn't matter why...
and that is the tyranny of the time clock... it negates human values.....
and only allows time as being the only factor in consider the value of a human
being..... no other human value is even considered... I am thought of in terms
of how much I am on time..... that is my value... staying on time.....

this is the legacy of the industrial revolution..... we only have
value if we act like a machine and act with precision in our working day....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:05 pm

from Descartes, we see the image of man moving
from a man as being subject to god...to becoming
a machine.... for Descartes does treat man as a machine....
and then Newton came along and the universe seemed to be a machine
and to be a "natural" part of the universe meant to follow the universe
which is a machine, so we must be machines....it is being a part of the
universe that is machine with man must being a machine......
and that was the understanding in the 17 and 18 century....
man as machine..... then in the 19 century, people actually
understood what that meant and that understanding cause
a great deal of anguish......the Romantics of the 19 century
suddenly discovered what it was to actually be a machine....
they felt horror..... and discussed this in books like
"Frankenstein" in which man can be created like a
machine.........

the anguish of a writer like Kierkegaard can now be understood....
we are not machines.... we are human beings and this means.........

Nietzsche wrote about morality..... what does morality look
like when it isn't defined or created by god......
what does a man made morality look like?
what values are important when we no longer
have god to create values for us...........
but Nietzsche wrote as a man living in the midst
of the industrial revolution.......the devaluation
of man was the theme of the 19 and 20the century.....
and Nietzsche wanted to save human beings from being
devalued because of the industrial revolution....
this is why he was so concerned with values.....
what values are important in a modern world that
automatically devalues anything that is not values of the machine....

does a good man have value in our modern world that only values
time, as time is money... or so goes the saying.... so we have
another formula...... energy is matter...... time is money.....
we can say that matter is energy and money is time and still be correct....

and we discover that in our formula of time is money...
the values of a human being is not admitted........
for a human being is nether time or money and thus
is not in the equation....and thus devalued........

and after this devaluation of the human being comes the 20th century...
and its great wars and the Holocaust and the dropping of the atomic bombs....
think they are isolated and separate the two.... this devaluation and the events
of the 20th century? this is why we must discover what is the value of the human
being....otherwise, we shall have more nihilism and despair and the alienation
that exists today......... it is because we don't have any value in the modern world
when we have the human values of love and peace and hope and charity and justice
and equality.... those values don't have any meaning in a world that has
accepted only the value of profits... which is our formula of time = money....

if you don't have anguish about our modern times.... you just
don't understand what is at stake...... you are alienated
and you don't even know it....... such a sad state of affairs....
when we human beings are devalued and denied and alienated
and we think it is the "modern" condition.....and perfectly normal....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:11 pm

one of the problems of the world is the fact that
the battle of the values that begin with the American
revolution and the French revolution and was still running
in the battles between workers and owners until the first world war,
is still going on....... workers have been marginalized and denied
and devalued are still fighting the battles fought during
the years after the Napoleonic wars....a war that has lasted
for almost 200 years between workers and owners.... a war
that still exist... even if owners have the upper hand, for now.....

the drive for nationalism and Americanism and profits
are really attempts to get people to forget how they
have been denied and devalued and marginalized......
if you are proud of being an American doesn't that trump
being a worker? why just be a worker when you can be an
American.... an empty gesture to be sure....when the real fault
line exists in the economics of worker and producer and owner
and the pursuit of profits which is nihilism.....

this is the real meaning of the drive for nationalism.....
to get workers to forget they are nothing more then
commodities to be used and abandon when it is convenient....
to be a worker is to be a means to an end and that end is profits...
so the worker is disposable..... and has been for almost
200 years... and we are still fighting that battle.....

and until there is a finish to that battle, we shall not
achieve anything..... until the war is won or lost by
the workers.....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:50 pm

if you want proof of the war between the owners
and the workers... you need not go any further then
the current war on public education....by denying education
to it workers, it is hoped that the workers will become
docile and willing to die for the pursuit of profits
for their masters.....

education is seen as the enemy of the state because if one
becomes educated then you will come to see the inequality
and injustice of the modern state.......... being a slave to the
modern state means having no education.... a return to the formula
of the middle ages.... having an uneducated populace in which
the owners of the state can dictate the terms of who you are
and what is possible......the battle over education is part
and parcel of the war on the workers.....

become educated and you become part of the revolution against
the owners and their devaluing of the human being into a commodity,
a means to the end.. which is profits no matter what the cost to the
human being's soul or his body.....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:56 pm

to become educated: what does that actually mean?

our idea of being educated is where one has a job skill..
something to make a living.... a skill to have a career.....
that is our modern definition of being educated......

but that is not being educated.... that is being trained to
have a job skill.....

to be educated is something more then just a job skill
its a means to become wise... a way to gain wisdom.....
a method to follow that allows one to be able to
pursue an understanding of the world and an understanding
of who we are and what are our possibilities....

one of our basics failure (among many) is our failure
to educate.... we make a basic, wrong assumption about
education... we teach education as a means to get a job
but not as a means to understand the truth or even
to look at our basic assumptions.........

because of our failure to educate, we have uneducated people
who just have job skills but no wisdom or understanding....
and the corporations want this.... because it is just another
means to teach us how to be workers..... in school being on
time and showing up is very important.... just like work......
the basic skill of following directions.. very important...
in both work and school...... not questioning authority,
very important in both......schooling today is just about training
children to become workers in our modern society.....

and this has directly lead to the election of IQ45.....
because a whole class of people have been "educated" to
have simple working skills and to obey.... the values of this "education"
are negative values....this education is not just in schools but in the values
taught by society in the media and in beliefs in the culture....

this training, the education we receive are the myths, habits,
prejudices and superstitions that are passed down from generation
to generation.... that is passed off as "education"..... the schooling
we receive just passes on the myths and habits and prejudices and superstitions
of the prior generation....... we are not to question them... that is part of
the training we get to obey....the training we get, the education we get
is connected to create a certain type of human being....... the media reinforces
the educational system and the educational system reinforces the media
and the culture's message reinforces both and both media and educational
system reinforces the cultural message..... and the message is the same from
all...... to become something and that something means to have a job or a
career and to become a good consumer... to be wealthy is the highest goal
achievable... not to be wise or to question, but to pursue money/profits....
this goal that is driven by the message of media and education we teach, reinforces
the corporate goal which is the pursuit of money/profits is the highest
and only goal worth achieving.....

so this is the point of modern education... the pursuit of wealth is the objective
of life... and we have multiple sources of information that reinforces this message.....
schooling, media, culture, government.... all work very hard to make sure
this is the education, the message we get about who we are and what
are our possibilities..... we are consumers and our only possibility is
to work to be able to consume..... that is the myth and habit and
prejudice and superstition of modern education and modern life.....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:13 pm

I am at present reading "Fire and light" by James Macgregor Burns...
and I came across these paragraphs....

........."nothing can be more evident to us, than our existence," Locke wrote, nothing
more beyond doubt, no foundation firmer for knowledge and action.

The implication of this for politics was staggering- it tore up deeply
rooted assumptions. Now the individual was, as historian Anthony Arblaster
wrote, more " 'real' or fundamental than human society" with "a higher moral value"
Society existed to serve man, not men society. the individual, not king or prelate,
was the central factor-the cause of society's existence... to explain this, thinkers
as diverse and even opposed as Hobbes and Rousseau deployed the social contract,
a fiction that pictured society as an amalgam of individuals, created wholly by
their mutual consent.

But Hobbes and others had written that men were not by nature social
creatures, not like bees and ants, and they entered into the social contract
only reluctantly, to protect their supreme value -their lives- by escaping
nature's anarchy, the Hobbesian war "of every man against every man"
In doing so, though they agreed to sacrifice only a portion of their
autonomy, as much as was necessary to secure their lives........"

these couple of paragraphs lead us to a couple of points....

first of all, man is by nature a social creature... perhaps not
like the ant or the bee, but nevertheless "MAN" is a social creature...
and I believe given the choice, human beings would agree to making
this so called "fictional" social contract, real....the benefits of society
is evident to all but the most ignorant...

the next point is this, is society an "amalgam of Individual"
isolated and solitary from everyone else? no, as I have clearly pointed
out, we exist in systems, many, many systems... and we are not and cannot be
be isolated and solitary in the midst of all these systems.....

the third point is this, we "sacrifice a portion of our autonomy
as much a necessary to secure their lives"

but and this is important... we sacrifices our autonomy not just
to secure our lives... that is that limited vision of government
that only exists to ensure our security and safety... I reject this
notion that government only exists to ensure our security....
the government is an active participant in the creation of its
citizens....the government by its actions helps create its citizens......
the government is another system in which we belong to.... and
we engage with and it engages with us.....

how much engagement is an ongoing political and philosophical
problem that has been in question since Plato..... what is the "proper"
role of the individual within the government.......and what is the
"proper" role of the government in the lives of the individual?

Reagan famously said that, "the government is the problem"
the liberal believes that this engagement is more
of a partnership between government and the individual....

it is not just about the individual...it is about the relationship
between the individual and the government.... and that
is the question....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:37 pm

for me, people, individuals are like water...
and society is the container....so if the container is
square, then any water poured into the container
will take the shape of a square...the container
forces the water to take a certain shape because
of the shape of the container... that container is
society/government.... and we are the water...
and the shape of society/government forces us
to take a certain shape.....we are bound by the shape
of the containers that exist around us, like society,
like the government, schooling, culture.....
they define the shape that is possible for us.....

our mission is to discover that we are like water
and we can take whatever shape we want... we don't have
to take the shape of the square, that is government,
we can take another shape.......

I don't necessarily want to be free of the containers as much
as I want to be a participant in the creation of the containers
that will shape the next generation... in the creation of
the society and culture and media and government and ideologies
that help shape the next generation..... those containers
exists as part of the systems I write about and I want to be
co-creator of those systems and those containers.....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:44 pm

ok, let us try this.....

we are born... think of us as water......
we are taught the biases and myths and habits, prejudices and ism's and ideologies,
superstitions of that society, that culture... those biases and myths and ism's
and habits and prejudices become the containers which hold us...we
are pored into those containers of myths and bias and habit and ism's..
as water is pored into a cup....then that container becomes the limits
of our knowledge...so the reason we need to brake free of our biases
and myths and habits, as the enlightenment wants us to brake free,
is then we can create our own containers, we can become the creators
of our own thoughts and understandings and feelings about ourselves
and our world...... we create the containers that contain us, not
society and not the culture.........

to become who you are means you must break the ism's and myths
and habits and bias and prejudices that are the container around you...
you must shatter that container around you....then pour the water that
is you into a new container of your own creation.....

so we return to the Zen understanding.....

before Zen, the mountains were stable, not moving,
the sea is quiet, calm, peaceful....
the river is in its banks, flowing downstream, softly.....

this is us before we break the containers that hold the myths
and superstitions and habits and ism's that society pour us into.....

during Zen, the mountains are dancing and unstable....
the sea is restless and agitated, mercurial....
the river has overflowed it banks and rushing everywhere....

after Zen, the mountains have once again become stable, fixed,
stationary....
and the sea has become a calm mirror of the sky...
and the river has returned to its bank...and quietly flows down the banks.
peacefully and softly.....

after Zen, we have broken the containers that we have been poured
into and now the water that is us, is back in containers of our own
making.....we see things differently... our viewpoints have changed...
and we have grown into new people, not physically, but with new
viewpoints of who we are and what are our possibilities and with
new ism's and ideologies.... viewpoints we couldn't have dreamed of before
our conversion....I have gone through this Zen moment..... and it changes everything...
it is almost, ahhhh rebirth, almost.....this Zen moment can take an instant
or it can take years to finally become.....think of the caterpillar turning into
a butterfly..... while the caterpillar is in its cocoon, that is during Zen ....
and the before and after becomes clear...

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Dan~ » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:29 am

we are born... think of us as water......
we are taught the biases and myths and habits, prejudices and ism's and ideologies,
superstitions of that society, that culture... those biases and myths and ism's
and habits and prejudices become the containers which hold us...we
are pored into those containers of myths and bias and habit and ism's..
as water is pored into a cup....then that container becomes the limits
of our knowledge...so the reason we need to brake free of our biases
and myths and habits, as the enlightenment wants us to brake free,
is then we can create our own containers, we can become the creators
of our own thoughts and understandings and feelings about ourselves
and our world...... we create the containers that contain us, not
society and not the culture.........

That's what a philosopher is supposed to do to grow up and mature, psychologically and existentially.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Pneumatic-Coma » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:15 am

I AM A REBEL





Kropotkin
((Our object of desire isn't to change current belief systems or complicate already convoluted streams of information; we're not trying to even prove ourselves in anyway. We're just human beings similar to yourself. Not superior, the same. Ancestors of the lost world. The conflicts of beliefs you face in your world, are not only the conflict of self yet life, we cannot compel such conflicts to other's will for any self-benefit. The true goal reached here is there is nothing we can say nor do that can convince anyone else of what they don't know for themselves already. And, when the time calls, and you are ready, the barriers of awareness will expand and such confirmed information will be easily perceived, and known to them! Allow them to seek and find out when they are prepared. All will arrive to light in no time.) Ego sum via veritas et vita;Amesha Spenta;Vohu Mano; Allow all things measurable, microbial and astronomical to remain infinite, unchanged and arrive to light.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Pneumatic-Coma » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:17 am

Anybody else notice he uses a bunch of references out of Bruce Lee's book?
((Our object of desire isn't to change current belief systems or complicate already convoluted streams of information; we're not trying to even prove ourselves in anyway. We're just human beings similar to yourself. Not superior, the same. Ancestors of the lost world. The conflicts of beliefs you face in your world, are not only the conflict of self yet life, we cannot compel such conflicts to other's will for any self-benefit. The true goal reached here is there is nothing we can say nor do that can convince anyone else of what they don't know for themselves already. And, when the time calls, and you are ready, the barriers of awareness will expand and such confirmed information will be easily perceived, and known to them! Allow them to seek and find out when they are prepared. All will arrive to light in no time.) Ego sum via veritas et vita;Amesha Spenta;Vohu Mano; Allow all things measurable, microbial and astronomical to remain infinite, unchanged and arrive to light.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Pneumatic-Coma » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:33 am

you want to make a better society... simply start with making America
more just....practice equality... which means, we must make
our goals to be about increasing justice and equality, not
increasing our GDP.. or increasing our own personal wealth....
the path to a better America is the path of becoming more just.....
where justice is truly blind and where equality is the standard
to follow, not wealth.........


This comment above was entirely contradicted and negated cause you first mentioned it was and I quote

values.... there are not just personal values but collective values
of religion for example.... a church for example, is a place
of collective values that come from some source, usually
from revelation of some sort.....bible, koran, Talmud.....

in return for accepting those values, the believer is given
salvation and a one way ticket to heaven........

from my friends at wiki:

"religious values are ethical principles founded in religious traditions,
text and beliefs. In contrast to personal values, religious-based values
are based on scriptures and a religion's established norms"

we see for example, the Christian values..... which are shorthanded
as "family" values...

these values are seen to be Christian values:

Love of god...

fidelity in marriage...

renunciation of worldly goods....

renunciation of vengeance.....

forgiveness of sins......

unconditional love......


the ten commandments for example are a listing of values...

thou shall not.......

1: you shall have no other gods, but me

2. you shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it
or worship it....

3. you shall not misuse the name of the lord, your god....

4. you shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy....

5. respect your father and mother....

6. you must not commit murder...

7. you must not commit adultery...

8. you must not steal.....

9. you must not give false evidence against your neighbor....

10. you must be envious of your neighbour's goods...
you shall not be envious of his house nor his wife nor anything that
belongs to your neighbor......

and yet, we see the "MODERN" Christian not only violating these
commandments but actively supporting the opposite of these
commandments, these values......

it is clear that the modern Christian along with the modern American
holds money as an idol far higher then faith in god.....

the evangelical support that fuels the GOP is support for values that
are against the ten commandments and against everything jesus said......

their vote for IQ45, a person who lies and steal and commits adultery
and has mammon as his highest value... shows the bankruptcy of
modern Christian values...... IQ45 is a walking, talking example of
everything jesus preached against..... and yet, that doesn't deter
the modern Christian from supporting IQ45............

at this point, we must return to existentialism as a point of reference....

the existentialist argued against an inauthentic life..... where
one's words and one's actions were two different things.....

the modern Christian words say one thing and their actions say
another thing... and this division between words and action
exposes many other division of words and actions......

the politician who claims to be for the people and yet works for
the highest bidder, politicians who are nothing but whores
in more expensive suits....... they speak one thing and
act upon a different thing.....

do you want to know the failure in America today?

it lies, in part, with people speaking words
and doing something different than those words.....

it lies in the hypocrisy of modern life...... we utter
words of forgiveness and words of love and words of
everyone is equal and our actions are of
hate and intolerance and injustice........

thou shall not kill.....

and yet if you support the policemen who kill,
you are a hypocrite.....

if you are a Christian and you support the death penalty...
you are a hypocrite.....

if you are a Christian and you support the GOP...
you are a hypocrite......

tell me your values.....
and then show me your actions......
do your words match your actions?

no, then you are a hypocrite....

so, tell me... what are your values?

and then show me your actions that support
your words.........


So what I understand from this is that religion teaches you shut off any type of guilt you may have in you just by simply redeeming yourself yeah? You may have resolved your own metal landscape, yet not the prior situations right? Redemption is only the moral state of mind telling you what was right and wrong all along. Yet if religion can teach you to turn on and off like that you're more an easily swayed human soul yourself. First off fooling yourself isn't fooling reality and all of it's actual proofs. I see it like this, that which you are really after and care most about, that which you wish you can really pay reverence towards, is in that same way dire straights mentally. Abusing dilemmas with interpretation of your own choice and quick to criticize those around for it. Listen learn to break away from both Religion and State it's not healthy I can clearly see this.
((Our object of desire isn't to change current belief systems or complicate already convoluted streams of information; we're not trying to even prove ourselves in anyway. We're just human beings similar to yourself. Not superior, the same. Ancestors of the lost world. The conflicts of beliefs you face in your world, are not only the conflict of self yet life, we cannot compel such conflicts to other's will for any self-benefit. The true goal reached here is there is nothing we can say nor do that can convince anyone else of what they don't know for themselves already. And, when the time calls, and you are ready, the barriers of awareness will expand and such confirmed information will be easily perceived, and known to them! Allow them to seek and find out when they are prepared. All will arrive to light in no time.) Ego sum via veritas et vita;Amesha Spenta;Vohu Mano; Allow all things measurable, microbial and astronomical to remain infinite, unchanged and arrive to light.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:52 pm

Dan~ wrote:
we are born... think of us as water......
we are taught the biases and myths and habits, prejudices and ism's and ideologies,
superstitions of that society, that culture... those biases and myths and ism's
and habits and prejudices become the containers which hold us...we
are pored into those containers of myths and bias and habit and ism's..
as water is pored into a cup....then that container becomes the limits
of our knowledge...so the reason we need to brake free of our biases
and myths and habits, as the enlightenment wants us to brake free,
is then we can create our own containers, we can become the creators
of our own thoughts and understandings and feelings about ourselves
and our world...... we create the containers that contain us, not
society and not the culture.........


D: That's what a philosopher is supposed to do to grow up and mature, psychologically and existentially.


K: I would change one word in your sentence and that word is philosopher...
I would change that word to "person"..... that is what a person is suppose to do........

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:55 pm

Pneumatic-Coma wrote:
I AM A REBEL




Kropotkin



K: oh, I am 59 years old... way to old be a rebel... I am simply charting a path...
if that path seems to be radical or being a "rebel"... that is you, not me....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6458
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:56 pm

Pneumatic-Coma wrote:Anybody else notice he uses a bunch of references out of Bruce Lee's book?



K: who exactly are you referring to, Dan or myself?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6458
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:58 pm

Pneumatic-Coma wrote:
you want to make a better society... simply start with making America
more just....practice equality... which means, we must make
our goals to be about increasing justice and equality, not
increasing our GDP.. or increasing our own personal wealth....
the path to a better America is the path of becoming more just.....
where justice is truly blind and where equality is the standard
to follow, not wealth.........


This comment above was entirely contradicted and negated cause you first mentioned it was and I quote

values.... there are not just personal values but collective values
of religion for example.... a church for example, is a place
of collective values that come from some source, usually
from revelation of some sort.....bible, koran, Talmud.....

in return for accepting those values, the believer is given
salvation and a one way ticket to heaven........

from my friends at wiki:

"religious values are ethical principles founded in religious traditions,
text and beliefs. In contrast to personal values, religious-based values
are based on scriptures and a religion's established norms"

we see for example, the Christian values..... which are shorthanded
as "family" values...

these values are seen to be Christian values:

Love of god...

fidelity in marriage...

renunciation of worldly goods....

renunciation of vengeance.....

forgiveness of sins......

unconditional love......


the ten commandments for example are a listing of values...

thou shall not.......

1: you shall have no other gods, but me

2. you shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it
or worship it....

3. you shall not misuse the name of the lord, your god....

4. you shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy....

5. respect your father and mother....

6. you must not commit murder...

7. you must not commit adultery...

8. you must not steal.....

9. you must not give false evidence against your neighbor....

10. you must be envious of your neighbour's goods...
you shall not be envious of his house nor his wife nor anything that
belongs to your neighbor......

and yet, we see the "MODERN" Christian not only violating these
commandments but actively supporting the opposite of these
commandments, these values......

it is clear that the modern Christian along with the modern American
holds money as an idol far higher then faith in god.....

the evangelical support that fuels the GOP is support for values that
are against the ten commandments and against everything jesus said......

their vote for IQ45, a person who lies and steal and commits adultery
and has mammon as his highest value... shows the bankruptcy of
modern Christian values...... IQ45 is a walking, talking example of
everything jesus preached against..... and yet, that doesn't deter
the modern Christian from supporting IQ45............

at this point, we must return to existentialism as a point of reference....

the existentialist argued against an inauthentic life..... where
one's words and one's actions were two different things.....

the modern Christian words say one thing and their actions say
another thing... and this division between words and action
exposes many other division of words and actions......

the politician who claims to be for the people and yet works for
the highest bidder, politicians who are nothing but whores
in more expensive suits....... they speak one thing and
act upon a different thing.....

do you want to know the failure in America today?

it lies, in part, with people speaking words
and doing something different than those words.....

it lies in the hypocrisy of modern life...... we utter
words of forgiveness and words of love and words of
everyone is equal and our actions are of
hate and intolerance and injustice........

thou shall not kill.....

and yet if you support the policemen who kill,
you are a hypocrite.....

if you are a Christian and you support the death penalty...
you are a hypocrite.....

if you are a Christian and you support the GOP...
you are a hypocrite......

tell me your values.....
and then show me your actions......
do your words match your actions?

no, then you are a hypocrite....

so, tell me... what are your values?

and then show me your actions that support
your words.........


So what I understand from this is that religion teaches you shut off any type of guilt you may have in you just by simply redeeming yourself yeah? You may have resolved your own metal landscape, yet not the prior situations right? Redemption is only the moral state of mind telling you what was right and wrong all along. Yet if religion can teach you to turn on and off like that you're more an easily swayed human soul yourself. First off fooling yourself isn't fooling reality and all of it's actual proofs. I see it like this, that which you are really after and care most about, that which you wish you can really pay reverence towards, is in that same way dire straights mentally. Abusing dilemmas with interpretation of your own choice and quick to criticize those around for it. Listen learn to break away from both Religion and State it's not healthy I can clearly see this.


K: I have read this several times and frankly, I don't understand what you are trying to get at...
perhaps you could clarify this for me.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6458
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

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