## a new understanding of today, time and space.

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### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:which is more accurate?

he took the 5 dollar bill that wasn't his....
he made a mistake...

or

he had a weak and corruptible soul and was in need of redemption and saving....
and because he took a 5 dollar bill that wasn't his....
and this shows us the misery of man without god and how nature is corrupted
without god....man is a weak and corrupted being without god....

which is true?

Kropotkin

K: what would be the best method of understanding which statement is true?
how would one go about trying to decide which statement is the correct one?
and how certain would one be that the answer found, would be the

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Peter Kropotkin wrote:which is more accurate?

he took the 5 dollar bill that wasn't his....
he made a mistake...

or

he had a weak and corruptible soul and was in need of redemption and saving....
and because he took a 5 dollar bill that wasn't his....
and this shows us the misery of man without god and how nature is corrupted
without god....man is a weak and corrupted being without god....

which is true?

Kropotkin

K: is one statement a physical statement and is the other statement, a
spiritual statement?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Posts: 6851
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### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

as I have stated before, human beings are problem solving
creatures... and god knows we have problems galore right now,
but, we've turned away from this idea or notion of the
problem of human existence... what is the human condition?

you don't hear any talk of that... yah, you hear global warming
and the usual suspects, but you don't hear about what it
means to be human... is the human condition really what the
existentialists thought....which is the problem of being must
take precedence of that of knowledge in philosophical investigations...
the problem of existing rather then it a problem of knowing or
knowledge or gaining facts....we are condemn to be free is one
such example of this problem of being rather then knowledge or
the gathering of facts....who are we and not what are we..

and I suspect that why we have so many problems like global
warming and the deepening crisis of left vs right lies in the
not knowing or in the lack of knowledge, of who we are.....

peace is not found at the end of a rifle or the end of a club...
peace is found in our self knowledge of what is really valuable
to our existence.....if there is one and one only lesson
about being a human being, it is this, we need each other...
simple as that....the problem of the individual is really a problem
of how we fit that individual into the larger social organism that
is society......we are born and we live and we die in a social
construct of human creation and we call society.....
the real question of human existence is how we are to fit
within society.....what is my role and place within society.....

we have all types of ism's and ideologies and paradigms.....

capitalism, communism, democracy, feudalism, hunter-gatherer,
monarchies, dictatorship just to name a few.... and the question
becomes how do we fit into the ism of the society we were born
into.... how do we adapt to the ism and ideology and paradigm
of the society we were born into.....

we are not born outside of society and we are not born outside
of ism's and ideologies and paradigms...... we are born
inside of those ism's and ideologies and paradigms and
we must learn to adapt to the ism's and ideologies, we are born into....

to be a radical is to suggest that the ism's and ideologies we
are born into must be changed or even ended... that is the definition
of a radical.... someone who believes that the ism's and ideologies
that we are born into must be changed or even be ended.....

and the list of radicals is a long and distinguish one... from Plato to
Jesus to Martin Luther King and Bernie Sanders....note
I didn't include Socrates.... think about why.....anyone who
believes that the ism we are born into must be changed is a radical......

so what is the human condition? what does the human experience
tell us about what it means to be human? how is being human different
then being an animal, a dog or an elephant? what is the point of being
human? how do we fit into an already existing society with already existing
ism's and ideologies while being an individual? what does it mean to be
an individual? many questions.........

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
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### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

let us take a common and longstanding philosophical idea,
the problem of multiplicity vs unity.... the one vs the many...
how does one substance become two substance?

how does change create or go from one substance to two or more
substances....

how one approaches the question of unity vs multiplicity,
how one asks the question determines the answer.....
the question ask, will decide the answer given......

that is why Einstein was a great scientist, because he
ask the right question..... everything depends on asking
the right question....

so, is existence a more profound question then knowledge?
what does it mean to be human? what has priority, the individual
or the society and why?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
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### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

this question of ethics, morality...seems to haunt
philosophers.....From Plato to my present ground of study,
the rationalist philosophers, Descartes, Spinoza, Leibniz,
and I am beginning to study Hobbes, Locke and Hume....
and they all have ethics, morality as part of their program....

and as brilliant as these philosophers are, they are writing
about ethics and morality for the common man in language
that the common man cannot understand....

so let us look at ethics and morality....
if you read philosophers and their discussion about ethics
and morality... you see that it is a question of pursuit...
we pursue something to gain something....usually, ethics
and morality end with the goal being happiness....
and how do we gain this goal?

we pursue virtue or we pursue knowledge or we pursue controlling
our emotions... our passions and by controlling them... we gain the goal
of happiness.....but herein lies one of the problems of ethics/morality...
is happiness really a goal we should pursue?

it is claimed by various factions that the pursuit of happiness is the
point of life... now happiness has several different possibilities...
we can find happiness in pursuing god or in pursuing knowledge
or in personal satisfaction like wealth or fame or respect.....

but if we are wrong about happiness being the goal, then we should
rethink, reevaluate our thinking about the goal......let us
throw out different options... perhaps the goal is freedom/liberty....
perhaps out goal should be personal development... or understanding
who we are.....none of these goals require happiness or the pursuit of
happiness...perhaps we should pursue security as conservatives seem to think...

perhaps we should be more basic which is the goal is the preservation and
continuation of the species... perhaps that is the goal of all species and
not happiness....until we decide upon a goal, we really can't approach
this idea of what is the value of existence... in other words, we
exist..... what should we do while we exist..... what goal/goals should
we pursue, if any, while we exist.....is the point of existence really happiness?
or the pursuit of wealth or of power or of fame or the pursuit of freedom?

we have many possibilities to pursue in our understanding of what is
the point of existence....what should we do while we exist....
and some think the point of existence is basic survival and that is called
work... is that really the point of existence... to just spend our lifetime
trying to make enough to eat? we have so many different possibilities
and to choose the least productive one seems to be silly... we can be so
much more then just working drones and yet we don't or can't seem
to engage in the possibility that we are so much more then working drones......

is it laziness or the lack of imagination that limits us to thinking all
we can be is working drones.....

so what is the goal? what do we do while we exist? maybe this will tell us
what our path into the future should be.....should we exist
as moral creature? should we exist as consumer/producing beings?
should we exist as god focused creatures? or perhaps as man focused creatures?

in part, this is why we humans are so lost today.... we don't have a goal or
a understanding of what we should do while we are here..... what
should we do while we exist?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

in line with yesterday's post.... we touched on goals and also values....
for happiness is a value....it is something we value and we pursue
for its own sake....as it says in the declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths (values) to be self evident,
that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their
creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty
and THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS" .....

and yet yesterday, I questioned this value, this pursuit as being a
a value we should be pursuing....

I am thinking part of our failure today has been this pursuit of happiness...
it has lead us away from values we should be pursuing....
what values should we be pursing instead of happiness?

values like justice and values like freedom and values
like love and peace and hope... instead of pursing values like happiness....

this may be why we have gone wrong... we are pursuing the wrong values
and our current predicament with a failed president and failed polices of
the GOP have lead to this place of failure in which we exist in now....

the classic definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again
and expecting different results.....we have pursue happiness and we are here...
perhaps we should rethink or reevaluate what we are doing and try something new....

perhaps searching for happiness isn't really the right path... perhaps its another value
we should be searching for....and that value should be justice.......

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

we are born... we live...... we die....

what are we to make of this.....

we have no control over our birth and we have no control over our death...
so that leaves our life in which we have some control over....

life= existence.....we exist for a certain period of time and then we end
our existence......

during our period of existence... what are we to do?
I think most people just fall into their existence...
they don't give any thought to what should their existence be...
instead they follow the human path of school and work and marriage
and babies and retirement and then death... people follow this time
honored path without really thinking about what it means.....
without asking why.. why should we follow this path instead of another....
the other path being one of making a conscience decision to become
who you are......engaging in the pursuit of some value that makes this
existence worth living.. values like love and peace and justice and hope....

it is not the activity of daily life that makes it worthwhile...
it isn't the daily grind of work and taking out the garbage and feeding the kids
that makes life worthwhile... it is the pursuit of a value upon which we can
give our life some value... it is not the act of marriage that gives marriage its
value.. it is the love between two people that gives marriage its value....
the value of work is not the work but in the gaining of resources that allow one
to eat and have shelter and clothes..... quite often its not the activity that
creates the value but the value behind the activity that gives it the value...
it is not freedom of speech that has value but the idea behind it...
the right to speak ones mind is the act of giving validation to our idea's....
we have value if we can speak our minds.....it is not the actually freedom of speech
that is important but the value behind it......this is why love is more important
then hate... because hate is about intolerance and violence and putting people down....
whereas love is about rising people up and tolerance and peace.. it is about the higher value
that makes love a more valuable asset instead of hate......it is not about what love is,
but about what love can do... it is not about the work but about what the work means or
represents.......it is not the action, but what the action means or represents....
work is soul crushing and devoid of the positive but that is what the work means,
what it represents.....work is not the highest value but simply a task to be
accomplished.....like taking out the garbage.. a task to be done.....

marriage fails when it is a task to be done...when marriage has value
is when its about something greater then the task but when it is about the love
and that is what we fail to see.... it is not about the task at hand... but what
the task actually means.. what it represents....the higher value behind the
marriage which is love.... marriage without love is a task to be done....
we find our value not in the task at hand but in the higher value behind each

so instead of happiness, we search for higher values.. like justice and love
and peace.... why should we reject happiness as a value?
because it is a personal, selfish goal that can only benefit yourself...
love can benefit more then one person... peace offers benefits
for more then one and justice is more then just one person receiving
justice....values that benefit more then one person are values
worth pursing....

the world is a cold and impersonal place because we are each searching
for solitary goals like happiness instead of communal goals like justice
and love and peace... we don't exist alone... we exist with others and
we only can exist because of others... we cannot exist alone... we
need others to survive and others to become who we are and others
to find values worth living....we exist with others and so we must
find values that include others and not just our selfish, personal goals....

values like love and peace and justice....
values that include others and not just ourselves....
we have failed today because we don't have values that
include others... we pursue individual values like money
and hate and happiness..... the idea of the pursuit of life, liberty
and happiness is not an individual pursuit but a pursuit including all
of us and that means values that include all of us...justice and love
and peace......

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

you have ontology arguments for god....

1. this is an definitional ontological argument

"god is a being which has every perfection..
(this is a matter of definition)
existence is perfection. Hence god exists"

2. conceptual ontological, hypertensional, argument...

"I can conceive of a being that which no greater can be conceived..
if a being then which no greater can be conceived does not exist, then I can
conceive of a being greater then then a being than which no greater
can be conceived-namely a being then which no greater can be conceived..
Hence a being that which no greater can conceived exists....

K: now the problem with both is they are logical argument for the existence
for god, not real, here is god arguments....in other words, using logic to
create an argument for god instead of a physical, god exists because there
is physical proof of god's existence and here is that proof......

now what does this have to do with my previous posts?

we often use logical, rational arguments in place of
of proofs that show us the physical existence of something....
we imagine that life is this and we then base our actions on this
imagining instead of basing our actions on what is, instead of
of our thinking this is......

we imagine something and we take that as reality instead of
of taking reality and basing our idea's on that reality.....
instead of using logical deductions to base our actions on,
we should be our actions on what actually exists....

we are born... we live....we die.....

in any thinking about, or theoretical thinking about our existence
must start with this basic proposition... we are born.. we live... we die....
we cannot control the first and the last proposition but we can control
the middle proposition... so how should we live? we shouldn't base
how we live on any theoretical thinking like the ontological arguments
for god....we should understand our lives based on the notion that
we are born... we live and we die and what should we do while we live.....
this is the essence of morality, ethics... how should we live our lives
in relation to other human beings, to other life.....this isn't a theoretical
proposition..... how should we live our lives in relation to others...
ethics, morality is simply rules of how we should live with others....
and those rules are there to allow us room to engage in and participate
in finding out who we are and finding out how to become who we are.....

ethics, morality is simply a tool that allows us space to become who we are
and allows us to act and interact with others who also are also engaged in
the understanding of who they are.... by giving others space to engage
in their pursuit, we give ourselves space to engage in our pursuit.....
be it knowledge or happiness or love or finding our truths......

ethics, morality is not an absolute because that would limit
us into certain behavior that may not allow us to engage in our
own pursuit.... we must be and we must have flexibility to
engage in our own pursuit..... but not of happiness as I have
suggested but in a pursuit of justice..... if we are fixed in
our ethics, our morality... we may not have the freedom to engage
in the pursuit of justice.....ethics, morality must be able to adjust
to the situation and the times we live in.... different societies and
different cultures have different ethics, different morality....
this suggest to me that we have different possibilities for ethics,
morality... we should embrace the ethics, the morality that allows
us and others the greatest freedom to act...... freedom however is not
absolute... but conditional, one cannot shout fire in a crowded theater..
for example... freedom is conditional and we should explore the conditional
aspects of freedom in our pursuit of different ethics, morality.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

So in regards to my previous post... we should think of life
in terms of experience and not in terms of logical

experience tells us that it is hard if not impossible to
exist with someone who hates and has anger...
I have dealt with those who hate and have anger
and it is hard to engage in life with them for they
are driven by their hate and anger...

to co-exist with people, that is ethics, morality....
we must exist together and to exist with hate and anger
and violence is very hard to do... but to exists with love
and peace and hope is far easier to do... ethics and morality,
how we exists with others become easier if we have ethics,
behavior that allows to co-exist with others and having
love and hope and peace makes it easier to exist with others...
this is not theory, but reality and you can confirm this
with your own experience in life.... how are we to live in this
life? the higher values of love and peace and hope allows
us to exist with others better, it allows society and the culture
to better be able to exist together.....

those who promote hate and anger and division, make living in
society and the culture harder and makes it harder to exists with others...
thus hate and anger and intolerance makes living with others more
difficult and makes the human experience much more difficult....
we exist with others and we must make that experience as smooth
as possible because we can then engage in our own pursuit of
those values we regard as essential.... if we make life easier for others,
it will make life easier for us.... if I engage in personal, selfish goals,
values, I make it harder for me to engage in society, culture because
my goals, values don't include others... it shuts out others instead
of including them... we can only discover ourselves in relation to
others.....and we need ethics and morality to allow us room
to discover who we are......how do we live? that is the question for
ethics, morality.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Justice is a concept that has been tossed around for a long, long time....
before Plato even....we still haven't found out what is just or unjust....

Let is imagine, for out own safety, we pass a law taking away the civil rights
of anyone who is under 5 feet tall...they have no rights as we have defined them,
they cannot drive, they cannot vote, they cannot own property and they
can be legally discriminated against....and for those people, who are over
5ft and taller, they have every civil right possible....now is this law, just or unjust?

it is a law, legally passed by congress and signed by the president.....how can
a law legally passed and signed, be unjust?

now we have legally passed limiting the rights of those under 5ft tall and
we aren't sure if it is just or unjust? is being under 5ft tall a choice?
we have limited their civil rights because of an accidental property,
being born under 5ft tall is nothing planed, it is an accident of genetics,
and those under 5ft tall didn't have any choice over how tall they are,
it is an accidental property over which these people or anybody in fact,
has no choice over and that makes it an accidental property, if you have
no choice over these properties....

we decide to limit the civil rights of blue eye people....they are shifty and
untrustworthy, and yet, they are blue eye because of an accidental property...
they have no choice over the fact they have blue eyes...is this just or unjust?

blue eyes, an accidental property... it somehow doesn't seem fair,
and fairness seems to be a property of justice...if everyone in a group is
being treated fairly, it can be said that everyone in the room is being treated
justly, you can use the word just and fair as equal terms...justice and fair
can be used interchangeable...

we have legally passed a law, then we must obey this law to be an "good American",
for every single country expects, demands that it citizens follow and obey the law,
that is being a good citizen of all countries, obeying the law....and our laws are
made in our name, with our consent, the consent of the governed.......we elect
representative us and they vote in our name....and we have consented to this system...

is it right, fair or just to pass laws limiting the civil rights of those
who have accidental properties? to limit those who have blue eyes or
are under 5ft tall?

now what about those who have accidental properties like being
handicap? should we limit their civil rights because they have
accidental properties like being handicap? Should I have less civil
rights because I have an accidental property from birth? I was born
with a severe hearing loss, an accidental property, and because of
something I have no choice over, be punished for it? is that right or
fair or just? we do have to protect ourselves as a society and by not allowing
the handicap the civil right to procreate, we do protect our future by
preventing the handicap from spreading their handicap into future populations
and thus protecting ourselves.....however is this just or fair?
it this a moral action? are we practicing morality when we do such a thing?

morality requires us to act morally, is passing laws based on accidental properties,
a moral action? a just action? to practice justice seems to be a moral activity....

we pass laws taking away the civil rights of purple people....
is this action, moral or immoral? Just or unjust?
is being purple an accidental trait and accidental property?

now is laws that are passed in our name, with our consent,
do these laws fall under the idea of being moral or immoral,
just or unjust? now being moral or immoral doesn't cover parts of
our lives... to be moral, truly moral, our morality must cover all aspects
of our lives....we cannot be moral in some aspects of our lives and immoral
in other aspects... I am sure Jeffery Dehmer followed the laws of the road
and stopped at stop signs and he obeyed the law and it was just of him to do so,
it was moral of him to do so, but he murdered children and that action is clearly
immoral, unjust.....so we cannot be moral in some aspects of our lives and immoral
in other aspects... morality is an all or nothing proposition, either we are moral
or we are immoral, we can't be kinda moral and kinda not...

Morality requires us to live moral lives.... we cannot disobey the law and be considered
moral.....but is passing a law restricting the civil rights of those people based
on accidental properties, a moral action? a just action?

to be a moral people, we must have a moral society....we can say the same thing with this,
to be a just people, we must have just society.. justice is a necessary aspect of having a
just society... is passing laws against accidental properties, a just action?

if we treat everyone the same in a room, then we are being just for
that is justice, to treat everyone the same regardless of their accidental properties....
if the room were filled with students and we treat everyone the same, we have a
problem? what about those with handicaps? I can't hear, what if I can't hear the teacher
the same as everyone else... how am I equal in my response to the teacher if I can't hear
the teacher.. justice demands that we equalize my chance of hearing the teacher,
which is the same as everyone else chance... and that is another aspect of justice,
of morality, we give everyone the equal chance to participate and by
better accommodating my hearing loss, I am given an equal chance
to the others who can hear... thus justice can also be that to create equal,
we aid those who are, say handicap, to become equal in their ability to hear, for example,
to accommodate those, to make them equal, is not creating injustice to those who can
hear and aren't accommodated.. they are already equal, we are just engage in making
others equal.....that is justice and that is moral....for morality is about creating
equality in people, groups, societies... making people unequal, legally or otherwise
is not moral, is not just.... morality is about making equal and justice is about making
equal.....thus morality and justice are the same thing.... if you are moral, you are just....
being equal in all aspects of life, whether obeying the law or by creating equality
in action, making handicap people equal by giving them enough access to make
them equal to others who can hear or walk or speak or see......

so what about passing laws based on people having accidental properties?
is passing a law taking away the civil rights of blue eye people, moral? just?

justice is an act of morality....creating equal.....and both justice and morality
is about creating equal.....equality in how we act toward others and equality
in how others treat us, both in private and in public.... equality must exist
in both our private lives and in our public lives......

if we are unjust in the laws we pass, for example, taking away the civil rights
of people because of accidental properties like having blue eyes or being under
5ft tall, we are not in a just society, a moral society for we are not creating equal
by taking away the civil rights of those who have accidental properties we dislike....
we are being immoral on a larger scale, we are being unjust on a larger scale because
those laws are being passed in our name, with our consent, the consent of the governed....

morality, justice exist both in private and in our public lives and that public life
is the laws we pass and the laws we obey.... is justice is not dispensed equally,
it is not justice, but injustice and that is not acting morally which is
morals are about acting equally....so if the society is not practicing justice,
we are equally to blame as we are part of society, we are part of the consent....
we are equally acting unjust and equally acting immoral if our society is acting
unjust or immoral....thus if the Supreme court of the United States is acting unjust,
unequal, it is acting immoral, it is acting unjust and we are equally culpable as
the court is acting in our name, with our consent....and if the police is acting unjust
and immoral, we are too blame as they are acting in our name, with our consent....
we are unjust and immoral if the court is unjust and immoral and if the police is unjust
and immoral, we too are unjust and immoral......we cannot be otherwise because the injustice
and immorality was done in our name, with our consent.....

so if the state passes laws done in our name and with our consent, we are equally
held responsible for unjust laws and immoral laws.....
so the laws are moral actions, just actions.... because they must treat people equally
to have justice, to be moral... and laws that are not equal, that treat people different
are immoral, unjust.....

we either act justly and morally or we don't... there is no middle ground.....
and it is no different with laws passed in our name, with our consent.....
justice has a communal, society aspect to it.. as does morality....
as we are one and the same, we are part of society and it acts in our name....

if society acts unjust or immoral, we are also guilty.....

so what if we pass laws upon other accidental properties
accidental properties in which the people have no control over..
we pass laws limiting the civil rights of people who are purple,
we are acting unjustly and immorally, and if we pass laws limiting
the rights of blacks... we and society is acting immoral and unjustly.....

we cannot give our consent to laws passed in our names that are
unjust and immoral and still claim to be just and moral people....

thus the recent laws banning people from certain countries that are
based on accidental properties, you can't control or have any choice
over the country you were born in... that is an accidental property....
and yet we have passed laws based on those accidental properties
and called it right... it is not... those laws are immoral and unjust.....
and they were done in our name, with our consent and thus we too
committed immoral and unjust actions.. we cannot call ourselves a moral
people, a just people if laws are passed in our name that punished
those with accidental properties....either we are a moral people
or we are not.. either we are a just people or we are not....

morality has an societal aspect and an individual aspect.
and to be moral, to be just we must engage in both sides,
society and Individually, to be consider moral, to be consider just....

if our government has engaged in immoral, unjust actions or laws,
we are equally immoral and unjust..........

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

at this point, we should perhaps understand or engage with the
concept of freedom......

it is often said that human beings are free, but are we?

it is understood that we cannot shout fire in a crowded theater,
we have a limited notion of being free, but have failed to completely
understand freedom if we leave it here....

we are free to act, yes, but there are clear limits to our actions...
as much as I want to, I am limited by my nature to act freely..
in other words, we are not free to engage in certain actions because
we are limited by our nature... we must eat and we must sleep
and we must engage in certain actions if we are to continue to exist..
we have no freedom in this regard....we are not free when we cannot
make a free choice and we must have food and water and air.. we have no choice...
we are not free in this aspect...

we know of people who have addictions, they must have certain
things, they are addicted to food, sex, gambling, drugs...
they become so addicted they have no choice and that means
they are not free either... freedom requires choice...

if we can choose to eat food then walk away, if we can gamble or not,
if we can do drugs or not, we are free, we are making choices and thus
we are free...the man who cannot control his addictions is not free...
what about the man who cannot control his passions... he hates
and cannot do anything else, he is not free. his passions control him
and he cannot make a choice, he is not free... this is the stoics
idea and Spinoza's idea... that to be free, truly free, we must be
in control of our choices.... we can act or not act and by freely choosing
we are free.....is hate a choice? if you can freely choose to hate or not,
then you are free... so those who hate and have anger and they cannot control
that hate or anger, they are not free because they cannot freely choose some
other action... they must hate, they can do no other..... they must have anger,
they can do no other... they are not free....

so we are free or not free by internal actions... we can decide within us,
to act freely or we can be controlled to act and not be free....
much of ancient philosophy and those like Spinoza are aspects
of this type of philosophy.....

we also have external actions that we can or cannot control...
if we can choose, we are free and if we cannot, we are not free...

I mentioned one aspect, environmental aspects like air, food, water
that we must have to survive, we have no choice... one aspect of this
choice is the choice of clean drinkable water and healthy food and clean air....
these choices are choices that help us live better, longer lives... I don't
necessarily want to live a long life but I do want a quality life and clean
air and clean water and healthy food will allow me to do that and because
I live where I do, in a modern industrial country, I can have clean air and clean
water and healthy food..... I have a choice... but those who don't have a choice
in clean air and clean water and healthy food, they aren't free because they
must exist with dirty water and air and unhealthy food, they have no choice....
they are not free.... external options force them without choices....

must I live in a capitalist society... yes, I have no choice, I am not free..
every single corporation I can work at, exist within the capitalist
society and they must, without a choice, exploit their workers for
the capitalist society must operate in a certain way and that means
you must create profits for without profits, a corporation cannot exist....
I have no choice but to exist within the capitalist society.. I am not free
and neither are you....... if we have no choices, we are not free.. simple as that....

so to call America the freest country on earth, is to say, we are free within
very confined limits... we have very limited choices both personally and
in regards to the work we can choose.... we must choose the capitalism system,
we have no other choice......as we must choose to eat and we must drink water
and have air, we have no choice......and we exists within very limited parameters
as given by our own bodies and by our economic system..........is this freedom?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

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### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

why am I misunderstood... you look down at the ground,
I look up at the sky......

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

now we can try to connect these two idea's, freedom and justice/morality.....

freedom is simply choices, the more choices you have, the freer you are....

and justice/morality is if we are a just people, we are a moral people....

and to have justice/morality, we must treat people equal....
equality is justice.....if we treat people different because they
have accidental properties, we are not acting morally or being just....

to have a just/ moral society, we must treat people equally in their
pursuit of freedoms and freedom means choices....
so we are being just by allowing people greater freedoms....

if we limit civil rights to a certain class of people, we
are being unjust/immoral.... if we use laws to prevent the poor or
the minorities or the young to vote, we are unjust, immoral....
because we are limiting their freedoms and treating them
unequally....so we have a beginning of a standard we can use
to understand if we are being just or unjust, moral or immoral....

but why does it matter if we are just or unjust, moral or immoral?
who cares? because as we can limit other people choices, limit
their freedom, by treating them unequal, it can be done the same way to you...
by encouraging freedom and justice, you are helping ensure you will be treated
equally and justly....if a society is harmed by an action, every member of that
society is harmed and if part of a society is harmed by lack of freedom and/or
lack of justice, then every single member of that society is harmed.....
for we are connected... you and I, we belong to the same society and if you
are harmed, I am harmed.. and if I am harmed, you are harmed.......
to have justice, we must be treated equally or we don't have a just society....

if the arm on your body is harmed, it does harm the body at large...
every tooth ache, every tummy ache, every act done to your body, does
harm to the whole body... trauma affects the whole body, not just the injured
part... and the same thing with a society, trauma affects the whole society,
not just the injured part.....Hurricane Harvey hit Texas and damaged Texas
but it harmed all of us...... for we are a whole, connected together...

to have a just society, we must have equality, to have a free society, we must
have choices and to have a just, free society, we must be equally treated
and have choices to make....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
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### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

the other day at that hellhole I call work, I was thinking about
about how people become moral/ just people..... I recalled the
many messengers of morality and justice.... From the bible, the sermon
on the mount through the ages to the new calls for a moral and just society.....

people have heard this call, for not just decades or centuries but
for a couple of millennium, people have heard the call....and yet
it call hasn't been answered by the people.... they still need to be
coax and reminded to engage in morality and justice, even after the centuries...
but why, why hasn't the call been answered by the people?

for those of you who proclaim the herd mentality, it isn't because
people are sheep and belong in the herd... that is lazy thinking.....
and not becoming of a philosopher.....

why don't people engage in becoming moral, in becoming just?

why is it so hard to become moral, just?

what keeps us in this trap of human existence, this day to day living, that
prevents us from engaging in our improvement?

we know the path to follow, we have heard it all our lives...
become who you are.... the sermon on the mount is not just words
from an alien but words we have heard all our lives and yet, and yet,
we still don't follow it, we still don't obey it... we don't have to follow god
to become better people, we just need a better reason to become engaged in
in finding our better angel.......following god is not enough any more to become
engage... we need other reasons, stronger reasons to become our higher angels....

and that is the failure of our age....... we don't have any reason to become
moral, to become just.... we are cared for, we have enough food, we have
a limited but apparently enough freedom to sate our soul, but it isn't enough...
we want more and suppose that more is material.... cars and houses and TV's set..
but the more we want is not material and we just haven't seen that yet...
we are searching for more and that more is about who we are, not what we own....
it isn't about god, but about finding out who we are and engaging in morality...
for engaging in who we are is about finding the moral inside of us, it doesn't need
god for that engagement.... we are about finding out about what is the just life
and that doesn't need god.....is there more? of course but we have to set a course
somewhere and finding out who we are morally and who we are in terms of justice
is as good of a course as any.....some might say, why not find out our soul in terms
of hate and anger and greed but that means searching for our lower, worse angels...
our lower passions that are of instinct... I want to go higher and reach for the stars
to become/to find our better angels....am I in the stars? NO, but I am reaching and
I am climbing the long and winding road of discovering my higher angels......
it is not necessarily about getting to our goal as much as beginning the journey
and becoming......we might not become, but we are always in the state of becoming...
I would rather become something better then myself, then go down to the
lower angels of instinct......I want to be the driver of my journey instead of
reacting to outside forces that drive me...I want to be in control of my journey to
become that higher angel instead of being driven by my instincts.....

so I must become aware of that journey and what drives that journey into
a becoming......it is not new age mumble jumble that drives me, but
an engagement into becoming my higher angel....

the day to day forces that eat up my time and take me away from
finding out who I am... I must fight through those and the journey is
more important then just putting food on the table.....the higher road
requires higher commitment... the low road to instinct takes no time,
no effort to reach.. but the high road is hard and takes sacrifice and
that is why people have ignored the many voices since the sermon on the mount...
people just don't want to make the effort, to make the sacrifice to become better...

and that is a shame....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
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### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

why is good preferred over bad......

non-metaphysical reasons for standing for love, good,
and all those other values of our higher angels instead of
bad, hate, anger, greed the lower instincts of the human creature....

look at our solar system.....we have the planets circling around the sun
in picture perfect harmony....the solar system is stable, uncluttered, without
chaos and instability... it has lasted for billions of years in stability.....
the reason is those things that create instability and chaos don't exist
in the solar system...... we don't have roving planets causing chaos or
instability in the solar system.... we don't have any large nearby stars causing
us any instability and as long as nothing changes, we shall continue to have harmony
and stability and that is a very, very good thing as it allows us humans on our third
planet to continue our existence.... chaos and instability in anything, threatens
that thing to remain stable and continued existence.....to exist, to have anything
exist, it must have stability.....the more stable objects have less chaos and less instability
and less random actions around it.....think of bridges... the more they are able to
withstand chaos, randomness, instability, they better able they are to stand....
the chaotic events like earthquakes, storms, temperature changes, these random events
threaten the stability of bridges and the bridge must be built in such a way to resist
those random and instable events.....we want our bridges to be stable and to continue
existence and that means being able to withstand chaos and instability and randomness....

now a storms or another random chaotic events is not good or evil or any other
such human designation...... those events are just events without any human
qualities to them....

now think of human relationships like marriage.... I have been married for
21 years now...how did our relationship last? how did our relationship
survive? we stay away from chaotic events that threaten the stability
of our relationships.... I have never cheated.... that type of random, chaotic
event threaten the stability of a relationship.......I have worked during our
entire relationship... that helps the stability of our relationship....
any random, chaotic event threatens the stability of a relationship....
birth, death, losing a job, cheating on a spouse.... if you want a relationship
to last, one needs stability within and around the relationship....

so what builds a relationship and allows it stability? love, hope, honesty,
those higher angels of our nature allows a relationship stability....
and what destroys a relationship by allowing instability? those
lower angels of our human nature, hate, anger, greed....
these emotions create instability and chaos and randomness
into a relationship....

the positive attributes like good, love, integrity, hope help maintains
stability within any relationship we have.....

hate, anger greed are unstable attributes that bring chaos and
randomness into any relationship......

it is about the stability of a thing that allows it to exists that is important.....
and to have stability, one must avoid chaos and randomness and hate,
as all of those thing contribute to instability which can lead to
the loss of stability which threatens to destroy any object....

to exists, for anything to exists, it must have stability and anything that
threatens that stability must be avoided.......... thus we have
reasons for behavior that might be listed as good vs any behavior
that might be listed as evil.... for "good" behavior helps bring about
stability and "evil" behavior brings about instability.....we can
work for such things as love and hope and any number of the higher
nature of our angels behavior because they promotes stability
and the lower nature of our angels promotes instability and thus
threatens our existence..... it is about stability that we must fight for
and the higher angel of our nature helps bring about that stability....

this is a non-metaphysical reason to promote "good" actions and avoid
"bad" or "evil" actions... good actions promote stability which allows
something to exist longer and "bad" actions allow instability which
can bring about the end of something.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
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### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Are we fully human? No, because we are still governed by
our lower angels, our lower instincts, hate, anger, greed among others...
we haven't reached our full potential which is about the higher angels,
about the realization of being human which is love, hope, faith, generosity....

we are not fully human until we become those higher values...
we are a work in progress... we think of ourselves as being, but
we are not.... we are becoming.... becoming fully human...

and the tools we use on our path to becoming is freedom as I have
defined it and justice as I have defined it......

to become fully human, we must become freedom and be justice...
we must be about our choices, not just what we can buy, but in what
we can be... and justice which is about equality.... we must treat everyone equal....
and that means not just politically, but economically......on our road to becoming,
we use our tools which are the means in which we become fully human which is
the higher values of being human...... justice denied and freedom denied means
we have stopped on our path to becoming fully human....humans are always on the road
of becoming.... the question is, what is it that we are becoming?

answer this and we are well on the path to becoming..........are we a victim of
our lower instincts, or do we follow the path of our higher qualities....

choose and then we begin our rise or our descent... to the higher values or to the
lower ones........choose....for we cannot exist as being.... we are always in the midst
of becoming.... what should we become.......

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

I was exhausted yesterday from work and didn't get anything done
and it got me thinking.... we are so busy with life, we don't have time
to think about who we are and who we are becoming....

how can we practice becoming when we are too busy to even think...

becoming is about understanding who we are, we have to understand who we are,
becoming and for us, we are too involved in our modern life to think of being, little
less becoming......it is not about the destination because there is no destination,
there is only the journey for we are constantly changing, body, mind and soul...
the question is, are we in control of the change or do we just let the change
happen.....people never stand still... ever single person is changing all the time....
even you.... so what are you to changing to?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
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### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

so given the tools I have mentioned.... what would a society
with my tools look like?

I have mentioned justice which is simply the act of equality..
we must treat everyone equally, legally and morally.....

and freedom which is about choices... the more choices we have the freer
we are and I don't mean choices as to what kind of car to buy or any other
material goods, I would argue that buying material goods actually LIMIT
one's choices... buying material goods limit one because it ties one
with society because materialism ties one down.... once you begin to buy
you are trapped into society because you are a cog in the system...
you want a car and you need the money to buy that car.... you
must become part of the capitalist system and every purchase
entwines you deeper and deeper into the capitalist system....
soon, you are materially invested into a system that only wants
you has as labor and being a consumer... that is your only value
in the capitalist system.... you must produce something in which
you get paid and then you spend that payment on material goods
which is the other function you have.... you are deep into a system
that only values money... that is not freedom... but dependency...
you have no choices in a capitalist system.... just merchandise to buy....

and the second thing you need is freedom which is choice......

so every action needs to be address in these two terms....
justice and freedom.... if you treat everyone equally, then
you must treat them equal in terms of both the political and
the economic.... we cannot have the massive income inequality that
we have... this is a justice problem.... massive inequality means
we are treating people different and that isn't justice......

freedom means we allow choices and that means every action is taking
in terms of how does that action create choice and how does that action
increase justice=equality....... so we have a template of how we approach
problems.... we do we do that will increase justice and/or freedom in
that problem...... every single action has increasing justice/freedom
as it goal.....so by increasing justice/freedom, we become more just,
a more free society....... equality and choices... that is the template
we follow for a better society........every single problem is looked at
in terms of equality or freedom... does this action increase equality or does this
action decrease equality..... does this action increase freedom or does this
action/law decrease freedom.... if we always choose equality and if we always
choose freedom, we will be making a better society, a freer society, a
more just society......and individually, if we choose freedom and if
individually we choose equality, we will be choosing to become better
people......

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
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### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

so, we have being and becoming....
where does art fit into this?

Art is about the possibilities and becoming is about possibilities

we can use art to understand what is possible for us... to see where
becoming can lead us....so becoming is really just another word
for possibilities..... we can become something else and art show us
what that something else might look like.....

we use movies like fatal attraction to show us what the possibility
of an affair might look like... becoming in terms of having an affair
in light of a movie like fatal attraction can show us how wrong an affair
can be.... we can use art like fatal attraction to show us the possibilities,
both good and bad..... stuff like Star wars and Star Trek can show us
possibilities.... they can show us what choices we have and what our
possibilities are..... with art, we can see becoming and possibilities are
the same thing...for good and bad.......

that can be one function of art... there are of course several different functions
of art.......

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
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### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

you wake up.....
you brush your truth and take a shower....
eat some breakfast...
you head out to your job or to school...
you drive or take public transportation...
you arrive there and begin your day....
work or school last until lunch...
you grab a bit to eat...
depending on your work or school schedule... you might head home now...
or you might stay while longer ...
work/school being over, you head home....
if you are like me... you take some time to wind down....
you take some time to cook dinner....
you eat dinner....
you watch TV or read for a bit...
the long day ends and
you go to bed....

for most people that is an accurate description of their day....
for every 24 hours,
we devote 6-8 hours sleeping...
another 6-8 hours working or school....
we spend about 3 hours engage in preparing or eating food....
we spend an hour day, at least, engaged in transportation to and from...
if we have kids, we spend 2 hours engaging with them...
the entertainment aspect can last from 1 hour to 4 hours a day....TV, movies, computer....
so for most people, at least 20 hours of the day is accounted for between work, sleep,
eating, and commuting......this doesn't account for the day to day chores we have like
cleaning, taking out the garbage, doing the dishes, laundry which might take another
hour per day.....so our days are spent in perpetual busyness from waking to sleep...

so when do we have time to discover who we are....
when do we have time to understand our being and what
we should do in becoming....to know thyself takes time and effort,
when is that suppose to happen? take a look at the time spent in your life
and tell me when is it a good time to discover who you are?

look at the time spent in your day and tell me....
when is it a good time to explore freedom and justice?
freedom is about choices and justice is about equality....
when do you time to explore your choices.....

look at our days, full of busyness and action...

"Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
that struts and frets his hour upon the stage
and then is heard no more. it is a tale,
told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
signifying nothing"

are you that poor player?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

I have written about freedom and justice, but the questions comes at
some point, freedom for what? justice for what? what is the value of
freedom and what is the value of justice? I have argued that we have
a limited amount of freedom and let us say, that we reach the
biggest expansion of freedom we are going to get.. the most freedom
we are going to get and then, then we must ask ourselves, ok, we have
this freedom, what are we going to do with it?

let us say, we have the most justice we are going to find in society, we ask ourselves,
ok, now what? we have this justice, what are we going to do with it?

what is the point of getting freedom or justice if, if we don't know
what to do with it.........that is part of our modern problem, we don't
know what to do with freedom or justice if we actually have it....

so, you have as much freedom or as much justice as you are ever going to
get, so what do you do with it?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

how do we think of this freedom?
how do we think of this justice?

is freedom or justice an individual concept
or, or is it a culture, political concept?

we seem to have muddled the idea of freedom
and justice by not clearly defined it individually and
by not defining it culturally or politically.... or perhaps
the real problem is the idea of freedom and justice, both
individual and politically within the society is confused and muddled....

and we don't know what to do with either, individually or societally...
much of our confusion lies with the fact, we really haven't clearly
stated and worked out many different concepts.... an example of this
is punishment.... are we punishing people or are we rehabilitating
people...... we as a people have never really answered this question.....
what is the point of punishment? if we are punishing, then hell's bells,
let us punish... if we are rehabilitating then let us rehabilitate....
but we have never decided.... as a people.....

we have this freedom and we as a people have never decided
what we are going to do with this freedom......
freedom and justice are not just individual concepts, but
cultural and societally.....so as a people, what are we going to do
with freedom and with justice?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

the question of philosophy is not just what is freedom but
what are we going to do with that freedom?

so along with understanding what a concept is, we must then decide what
we are going to do with that concept............

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
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### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

so we have this concept of private property...
and we must not only understand what is private property,
but what is its value... what are going to do with private property?

one of our muddled concepts is private property....
private property makes sense when there are only a few
people in a certain location, but when you have millions
of people on limited land, private property no longer makes as
much sense........think of New York city..... what sense does
having private property makes in a location like NYC.....

take a piece of land in, Montana for example, and given its location,
land isn't as pricey as land in NYC, but it might be the exact same piece
of land and in NYC, the cost of that land could be worth millions
and in Montana, it might be worth $500 bucks.... the same land, just different locations and worth vastly different amount.... this shows us the artificial nature of land and private property is no different....we have a small, two bedroom condo, roughly 1700 square feet, and it is worth over$800,000 just because it is on the
San Francisco Peninsula... put that condo almost anywhere else and it is
a couple of hundred thousand, at best...every single house in my little city is
worth over a million bucks, no matter how bad of shape it is in because of where
it is.. put that same house anywhere else and it is maybe 200,000 or 250,000 bucks,
maybe.... this show us the artificial value we put on private property.........
given the nature of housing prices, we might as well be growing tulips
and selling them... that is an historical reference... see the Dutch....

it isn't real... so what is the point of private property? to feel safe from
the government? well that ship sailed a long, long time ago.....
we have no reason for private property outside of ego, vanity drives
our quest for private property and for no other reason....it isn't real....

yet much of our laws and our ideologies are driven by this ego driven
quest for property......this property we can't even explain why we want......

Desiderius Erasmus once said, home is wherever my books are.....I actually
agree...... so why is private property so important to you?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

### Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

ok, we have written about private property, but what
about the other concepts we have written about like justice?

Justice is the act of equality... either bringing someone up to be equal,
like rules that give the handicap equal access that others have or
to treat others equal either politically or legally.....

so let us discuss justice and private property....

justice is the act of treating equally and private property is just
the opposite...there are those who can never be able to afford
property in my city and yet others who by no other reason then being
born rich can afford it... I have heard it said, that life isn't fair....
which is another way of saying life isn't just.... but why not?
what is stopping us from having a just, equal, society?
simple greed would be one answer....also that the fact that
we accept the idea of political equality but we don't accept the
idea of economic equality.... economic justice is no different then
political justice and just as important....we don't require someone to
accomplish something before we give them political equality....
someone gets political equality by virtue of birth... you get all the rights
and privileges just by being born an American... a privilege offer just
by being born within certain artificial lines.. lines that have been changeable
in the past and are easily changed in the future because they don't really exist....

How can we rationalize political equality without accepting economic equality?

now one may make the argument that by equalizing everyone economically,
we take away their incentive to work... as if work was the thing we live for...
the battle is not to posses material goods or buy a bigger TV... the battle
is to become human... the march in mankind is not in technology or in GDP,
but in becoming better human beings and in creating a better society......

better human being and better society can be one whereas
there is more order and unity and a worse human being and a worse
society is a disorder society and a disorder human being.....

the sign of a functional society and a functional human being is
tending toward order and unity... look at functional societies
and functional individuals.... they are ordered and have unity
and there is less chaos and randomness........that is a sign of
a functional society and a sign of a functional human being....

Sweden is a far more functional society then Kenya and that is
a sign that there is order and unity in Sweden and more chaos and randomness
in Kenya.... look at history... the societies that lasted are the ones that
have more order then disorder.... think of systems and systems that
function better are ones that hold their order better... think of a car..
a car that functions better is one that has order and runs when you want it
to run and works the way it supposed to..... a disorder car, one that doesn't run
when you want to and is chaotic is a less functional car.....is less likely
to last.....order and unity are partly the reason for systems lasting longer...
the reason our cars and our solar system and the human body last
is because there is order and unity.... when there is disorder and chaos
and randomness... the system is in danger of failing....be it a car or a body
or a solar system.......

justice is a form of order and unity.... the amount of justice in a political system
will help decide how long that system, be it Rome or Egypt or China or Sweden,
will decide how long that system will last... because without justice there is
disorder and chaos and randomness in the system.....and that will decrease the
length of time a system, a political system for example will last....

so if we allow injustice in the economic system, we increase disorder and chaos
and that threaten the structure of society which means the system may fail....

we must have justice or the system might fail from chaos and randomness
caused by the lack of equality.....think of inequality as a scale... put too much
weight on one side and it is no longer in balance and that balance is needed for
any system, be it a car or a solar system or a political or an economic system
to survive....justice and equality and balance are all the same thing....
and all are needed to make a system work, any system......

so we must have political equality as well as economic equality
for our system to work, to be balanced, to last.....

private property threatens that balance of equality
and must be addressed....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend

Posts: 6851
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

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