a new understanding of today, time and space.

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a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:19 pm

I'm not actually sure where to put this, so I am placing it in the philosophy forum.

As stated before, I am old, 56 and I have read, studied and written philosophy for
over 40 years. I have read the posts written around here lately with some interest,
not for their direct content, but what they mean in general. The first point to understand
is this, everything is connected. Problems that look totally separate and isolated, aren't,
they have a connection and sometimes a deeper connection than we think. Everything is
connected, I cannot emphasize this enough.

We have Majs complain about a social media "debate" "encounter" that was weird
and we have gamer bring up a debate between Harris and Chomsky, that collapsed.
I suggest that the two are connected and the connection is communication and
how communication is perceived.

I work with a bunch of young kids and they lack communication skills.
But the issues runs deeper than just communication skills.
It is about (in part) with an overall failure to expand one's vision
beyond yourself. Kids nowdays have no historical sense.
I look at something like, immigration and I see not just the immigration issues
of today, but I see an America that has immigration issues since the beginning.
I am aware of the outright discrimination of the Irish for example from the 1820's
to the 1880's. Signs in shops that said, NO IRISH ALLOWED IN. That was common for
decades in stores nationwide. You include the Italians, Chinese, the Jews, and you
have decades of immigration woes and issues. It is not a new event and has been happening
in the U.S since the beginning, since 1619, when the first ship arrived carrying slaves from
Africa.

We don't exist isolated in time and space from events that have occurred in the past.
Watching the news and listening to politicians, you would not know that America even
has a past and where events occurred in that past. 9/11 didn't occurred in a vacuum,
but exists within a context that takes up time and space that last decades and continents.

so you have a generation that lacks communication skills and no understanding
of where they exists in time and space in relation to prior generations.
Almost like dogs, whose understanding of events is basically that moment of the event
and nothing before or after that event. A dog gets into the garbage and for the dog,
the only thing is that event, but for humans, we see that the dog has gone into the garbage
before, we see the event in time and space and we react to this event in time and space.
or said another way, we see this event within a context that makes sense. I submit
that we have a generation of kids that cannot communicate and cannot place events
into the proper context of time and space. Our understand of events is not different or better
than a dogs. We see 9/11 as an isolated event and react to it as an single, isolated event whereas
9/11 has context that spans decades and space.

As I have noted, these two aspects are related in some fashion, the lack of communication and the
failure to have context. The United States Supreme Court has a bunch of partisans hacks (right wing)
who decide law based on personal and paid for opinions that not only lack any legal justification, but
are seriously bad for America, (citizens united for one).They write opinions that don't even pretend
to offer any legal justifications for their absurd rulings anymore. The court exhibits another
aspect that is pertinent to this, the court has made its personal opinion far more important
than what is good for America. They don't offer any overarching principle that might be a justification
for their actions. Citizens united for example, only says that limits on campaign contributions
limits one's free speech. This ruling means that money is free speech and those with money have
more free speech that than those without money. There is no pretension that this ruling is nothing other
than the legal justification for the wealthy to buy elections. The ruling voids the idea of one man, one vote,
because politicians now just listen to the money, not the voters. Now place citizens united into context
of American history and you see how truly bad a ruling this is. Run the ruling into the past and into the
future and you see how bad this ruling sits with the past history of America and into the future, how
this ruling becomes America for the rich, by the rich. This ruling destroys democracy and so we have
something else now. You see this only by placing the ruling into context of the past and future.

We lack an understanding of time, space and communication. I would like to say that
America has a bright future but that would require people to understand context
of where we are and that context is lacking. An understanding that everything has context
and is related. Citizens united didn't come out of isolation, it had context of time and space,
where everything is connected. Everything is connected in time and space.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:32 pm

OK, moving on.

the next step is to connect.

One of the Greek's questions was, what is reality? You have two ways (so far) to approach
this question. One way is the Platonic way, which is to say, there is an objective universe.
This way is shorten by the saying, God is the measure of all things. There is an objective universe
that exists regardless of whether it is recognized by humans or not. The other way is the subjective
universe which says, man is the measure of all things. Humans give context to the universe.
Let us take a rather famous event. Newton and his apple. He sees the apple fall, thus suggesting
the idea of gravity. Now gravity is a major, if not the major force in the universe and we can see its
effects all the time, thus suggesting it is objective, but not so fast sports fans.
Let us rethink the apple idea.

We are sitting there and the apple falls. So this show us gravity exists? Uh, NO.
It is simply an apple falling without context until we link up the idea of the apple falling
with the other effects of gravity, the planets revolving around the sun and the like.
In other words, without some context or some explanation of the apple falling, gravity
is just a random event. The falling apple for a dog is just an apple falling.
it has no other significance. It says nothing about gravity because the apple has no context
beyond falling. It takes a human putting the falling apple into context that creates the idea
of gravity. Thus man is the measure of all things because it takes humans to create context
for such things as apples falling and gravity.

so what is reality? It takes humans putting events into context that creates reality.
I see a chair, a TV, a fan, my wife, a stove. There is no reality here until I put these things
into context. My wife is making breakfast, getting ready to leave for work while watching those
hideous early morning shows like "Good morning brain dead Americans".

Now this ability we have to create context in our environment.
Around this point lies a whole lot of philosophy. Kant's and Plato for example
for example laid waste to a lot of ink trying to explain how we create context by
their idea of categories. We have internal categories which help us create context in the
universe. So how do we have internal categories? The bottom line for both Kant and Plato
was in so many words, GOD, he created the categories in our head that creates context.
it is just as easy and without all the mess to imagine the categories being an evolutionary
carryover. Babies have three instinctive fears, of snakes, of the dark and of falling. those
three fears are a product of millions of years of evolution. the creation of categories needed
to create context in the universe is also the product of millions of years of evolution. And what
of something like the soul? The soul is simply in some combination therein, of evolution (heredity) / chemical
processes and environment. The soul exists like some sort of event like the falling apple until it is
placed into some sort of context.

So what is reality? we create reality by creating context of events in time and space.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:43 am

Kant once wrote, Philosophy is about God, freedom and immortality.
He wrote not understanding we are already immortal, we just haven't figured it out yet.
It has been said, many times now, that we are star stuff. That we, our bodies was created
from stars. Everything we see, everything in the universe was once star stuff, was once
part of stars. Once our sun goes nova in a few billion years, we will return to the stars,
to begin all over again. In every breath we take, in our very cells, exists the past.
Our atoms, that forms the basis of our very existence, are used over and over and over again.
Our atoms have been used and reused, for millions of years and will continue to be reused
for million, even billions of years. As we, our atoms are part of the ever recycling of life.
In every breath we take, exist atoms that was breath by Julius Caesar and Plato and JFK.
in our cells, exist atoms that existed billions of years ago. We are reborn again and again and again,
from the beginning of time till its end. We are immortal. My atoms have been reborn, literally,
millions of time and will continue to be reborn, millions of times. I am immortal as are you as
is every single atom that exists. This table, the TV, the couch, exists atoms that has been recycled
over and over again. In that dirt, you walk on every day, at one point or perhaps at many points,
you and I, existed as part of that dirt. Our atoms travel from one design to another to another over
billions of years. We are connected in the most fundamental way possible. At one point of time or another,
our atoms existed side by side. You and me, and everything and will continue to act and interact with each
other atoms until we return to the star to be reborn into another star system and the whole thing begins
again. We are connected to time and space and matter because we are time and space and matter.


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
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Posts: 5973
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Orbie » Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:54 am

Kropotkin, this had to be one of the most i sync pieces i ever read, i have to admit. I resonates so much, that it is uncanny. As if, we were perfectly in tune. This has been in a nutshell, the content of my mantra sinc i can remember, the very way you write, and it's substance.

It is also alignd with the esoteric teachings of the east.

KUDOS!
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Some Guy in History » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:21 am

What we do echoes and reverberates in eternity.
Image

A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time. A man does not die of love or his liver or even of old age; he dies of being a man. Death is a distant rumor to the young. Life is eternal, and love is immortal, and death is only a horizon; and a horizon is nothing save the limit of our sight.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:43 am

Phred the Phukhead wrote:What we do echoes and reverberates in eternity.


Actually it fades away after a while. Things lose structure and become formless after a while, like dust.
I am losing my mind to mandess.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:48 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:Kant once wrote, Philosophy is about God, freedom and immortality.
He wrote not understanding we are already immortal, we just haven't figured it out yet.
It has been said, many times now, that we are star stuff. That we, our bodies was created
from stars. Everything we see, everything in the universe was once star stuff, was once
part of stars. Once our sun goes nova in a few billion years, we will return to the stars,
to begin all over again. In every breath we take, in our very cells, exists the past.
Our atoms, that forms the basis of our very existence, are used over and over and over again.
Our atoms have been used and reused, for millions of years and will continue to be reused
for million, even billions of years. As we, our atoms are part of the ever recycling of life.
In every breath we take, exist atoms that was breath by Julius Caesar and Plato and JFK.
in our cells, exist atoms that existed billions of years ago. We are reborn again and again and again,
from the beginning of time till its end. We are immortal. My atoms have been reborn, literally,
millions of time and will continue to be reborn, millions of times. I am immortal as are you as
is every single atom that exists. This table, the TV, the couch, exists atoms that has been recycled
over and over again. In that dirt, you walk on every day, at one point or perhaps at many points,
you and I, existed as part of that dirt. Our atoms travel from one design to another to another over
billions of years. We are connected in the most fundamental way possible. At one point of time or another,
our atoms existed side by side. You and me, and everything and will continue to act and interact with each
other atoms until we return to the star to be reborn into another star system and the whole thing begins
again. We are connected to time and space and matter because we are time and space and matter.


Kropotkin


This is not a new understanding of time and space.

What does this have to do with "God'? Or did you just feel like throwing it in there for no reason for "mystic points."

You talk of immortality so passively, as if nothing can be done with it. Who would actually want to be immortal, especially on this shithole?

Humans are a brand of ape, a chimp primate. Telling me their minds are composed of atoms, why you might as well say their minds are composed of bricks, or stones or rubber bands. It's not a revolutionary new theory, and it tells me nothing about consciousness. Just regurgitated 'we are startdust' upperclass hipster woman rubbish.
I am losing my mind to mandess.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:09 pm

Today's Idea is about a misguided idea, happiness.

the Greeks were all over this idea that life was about happiness.
They spent a whole lot of time going over how a man could be happy,
with pleasure, with knowledge, with fame or success.
The medieval philosophers thought it was the closer to god, the happier a person.
We have the declaration of independence saying, Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
But what if they are wrong! What if the purpose of life has nothing to do with happiness.
This pursuit of happiness is another lie used to give us some hope that we will find happiness
in life. think about it, think about happiness and sadness and all those other feelings we have.
They (feelings) are transitory, very fleeting, they come and go like the wind, never staying too long.
Someone says to you, I am sad because of ....... That event that caused the sadness is also transitory.
I am sad because I lost my job. I am happy because I am in love. I am mad because the Giants lost last
night. Transitory events which lead to transitory feelings. I am sad because I lost my job.... will I still
be sad tomorrow? We don't know, we cannot hazard a guess as to whither we will be sad tomorrow or the
next day or the next day. We might still be jobless, but our feelings, changes, transitory.
I have found in my life, when I was happy, I was doing something else, my happiness was a result
of doing something. My happiness was the byproduct of something else. I was happy because I was in love.
I was in love because I was happy, doesn't work that way. Happiness, sadness, anger, are all byproducts
of something else. I was sad because .... I am angry because ...... I am happy because......
the because caused the sadness, anger, happiness, not the other way around. Our emotions didn't cause
the event, the event caused our emotions. I have noticed I don't react the same way I used to react.
I recall being very angry after 9/11 and wanting to nuke every Muslim country. The feeling passed quickly
and I got over it. I remember feeling sick and angry over the various shootings that occurred, Virginia Tech,
and all the others. I heard about South Carolina this morning, it made slightly sad, but I know that will pass soon.
I know, know more senseless deaths and shootings will happen soon because we allow it. I have put
the recent south Carolina shooting into context and have accepted with a sad understanding. It is a wisdom
that allows me to take such sad events and put them into an historical and political context knowing I will
be reading about another such event, tomorrow and next week and next year. All because we are pursing
our "happiness" and allowing guns.

Life is not sacred, it is a biological event and biological events don't
rely on emotions such as happiness or sadness or anger. biological events only
exist to exist and recreate. Biology is not about sadness or other emotions, but
about existing and then recreating itself. I don't need to feel sad or happy or angry
to understand my purpose in life is not, IS NOT, happiness, but to recreate, to reproduce
for another generation to exist. If we go extinct, follow the dinosaurs, we have failed in
our biological purpose, which is to exist and to reproduce another generation. All our happiness
and sadness and anger means nothing if we fail in our biological purpose.

Now recall yesterday lesson, how we exist and we shall always exist to the end of time
because of atoms living on beyond our existence. How do we understand
this with any failure of our biological purpose? This is an contradiction. How do we
handle this contradiction?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
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Posts: 5973
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:11 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:What if the purpose of life has nothing to do with happiness.

Then I suggest that you change your purpose ... or just stay miserable.

ALL conscious life is guided through its decisions via the Perception of Hope and Threat (thus joy vs misery). Without the pursuit of happiness, there is nothing but fear to guide you = terrorism => annihilation.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:47 pm

Aristotle created (as far as we know) the whole unmoved mover argument in which
he says anything which moves must have had a mover and all movement has
a mover which goes back into time until we reach the final act which is that which is
the unmoved mover which is declared to be god by Aristotle.
We can follow the same argument down until we reach the big bang and then
we reach the point where Aristotle declares to be god, we can say, not god, but
gravity is the unmoved mover. All it takes is one atom to connect to another atom,
and we know by electromagnetic force that an atom can connect to another atom.
Gravity moves the atoms and the electromagnetic force connects the atoms. Add in
billions and billions of years and we have our reality today. Everything we see today, is
simply atoms connecting to atoms. the various forms we see can be easily rearranged into
other forms because of atoms connecting. think of atoms like Legos blocks. Atoms are
the Lego blocks which simply connect and reconnect to make different forms. All forms,
everything we see are simply reassembled atoms driven by (moved by) the laws or rules
of the universe which is gravity, electromagnetic forces and the byproduct of these rules
which is entropy. We are no more then Lego blocks built to the rules of physics and biology
and our lego blocks are atoms, cells, DNA, among others. We can be assembled and reassembled
because our lego blocks is the basic foundation of the universe, atoms. So in all this, where
does happiness exists? Sadness, anger?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5973
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:57 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:Today's Idea is about a misguided idea, happiness.

the Greeks were all over this idea that life was about happiness.
They spent a whole lot of time going over how a man could be happy,
with pleasure, with knowledge, with fame or success.
The medieval philosophers thought it was the closer to god, the happier a person.
We have the declaration of independence saying, Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
But what if they are wrong! What if the purpose of life has nothing to do with happiness.
This pursuit of happiness is another lie used to give us some hope that we will find happiness
in life. think about it, think about happiness and sadness and all those other feelings we have.
They (feelings) are transitory, very fleeting, they come and go like the wind, never staying too long.
Someone says to you, I am sad because of ....... That event that caused the sadness is also transitory.
I am sad because I lost my job. I am happy because I am in love. I am mad because the Giants lost last
night. Transitory events which lead to transitory feelings. I am sad because I lost my job.... will I still
be sad tomorrow? We don't know, we cannot hazard a guess as to whither we will be sad tomorrow or the
next day or the next day. We might still be jobless, but our feelings, changes, transitory.
I have found in my life, when I was happy, I was doing something else, my happiness was a result
of doing something. My happiness was the byproduct of something else. I was happy because I was in love.
I was in love because I was happy, doesn't work that way. Happiness, sadness, anger, are all byproducts
of something else. I was sad because .... I am angry because ...... I am happy because......
the because caused the sadness, anger, happiness, not the other way around. Our emotions didn't cause
the event, the event caused our emotions. I have noticed I don't react the same way I used to react.
I recall being very angry after 9/11 and wanting to nuke every Muslim country. The feeling passed quickly
and I got over it. I remember feeling sick and angry over the various shootings that occurred, Virginia Tech,
and all the others. I heard about South Carolina this morning, it made slightly sad, but I know that will pass soon.
I know, know more senseless deaths and shootings will happen soon because we allow it. I have put
the recent south Carolina shooting into context and have accepted with a sad understanding. It is a wisdom
that allows me to take such sad events and put them into an historical and political context knowing I will
be reading about another such event, tomorrow and next week and next year. All because we are pursing
our "happiness" and allowing guns.

Life is not sacred, it is a biological event and biological events don't
rely on emotions such as happiness or sadness or anger. biological events only
exist to exist and recreate. Biology is not about sadness or other emotions, but
about existing and then recreating itself. I don't need to feel sad or happy or angry
to understand my purpose in life is not, IS NOT, happiness, but to recreate, to reproduce
for another generation to exist. If we go extinct, follow the dinosaurs, we have failed in
our biological purpose, which is to exist and to reproduce another generation. All our happiness
and sadness and anger means nothing if we fail in our biological purpose.

Now recall yesterday lesson, how we exist and we shall always exist to the end of time
because of atoms living on beyond our existence. How do we understand
this with any failure of our biological purpose? This is an contradiction. How do we
handle this contradiction?

Kropotkin


Hmm, lets see, so you were one of those hyperreactionary guys who was easily manipulated by sensationalist news. That's reassuring. Anyway, enough with the adhoms.

You say "happiness doesnt make you feel in love"? I think that's false.
You fall in love with someone because of your feelings. Its circular. Cause and effect, is Effect and cause.

You list the purpose of life as reproduction. So the purpose is to reproduce endlessly? Why? You might as well say the purpose is to color your house purple. I mean, there's no real value attached to either purpose.

It would make more sense, if the purpose would be, to make constructions, ie. say, the purpose is not merely to reproduce, but to make constructions, make the species last long enough to comprehend what needs to be comprehended about the universe, and evolve past the chimps that they currently are.
I am losing my mind to mandess.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:47 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:Aristotle created (as far as we know) the whole unmoved mover argument in which
he says anything which moves must have had a mover and all movement has
a mover which goes back into time until we reach the final act which is that which is
the unmoved mover which is declared to be god by Aristotle.

You are thinking of Thomas Aquinas, but that argument was flawed anyway.


Peter Kropotkin wrote:We can follow the same argument down until we reach the big bang and then
we reach the point where Aristotle declares to be god, we can say, not god, but
gravity is the unmoved mover. All it takes is one atom to connect to another atom,
and we know by electromagnetic force that an atom can connect to another atom.
Gravity moves the atoms and the electromagnetic force connects the atoms. Add in
billions and billions of years and we have our reality today. Everything we see today, is
simply atoms connecting to atoms. the various forms we see can be easily rearranged into
other forms because of atoms connecting. think of atoms like Legos blocks. Atoms are
the Lego blocks which simply connect and reconnect to make different forms. All forms,
everything we see are simply reassembled atoms driven by (moved by) the laws or rules
of the universe which is gravity, electromagnetic forces and the byproduct of these rules
which is entropy. We are no more then Lego blocks built to the rules of physics and biology
and our lego blocks are atoms, cells, DNA, among others. We can be assembled and reassembled
because our lego blocks is the basic foundation of the universe, atoms. So in all this, where
does happiness exists? Sadness, anger?

You have things a bit scrambled in all of that, but most of it has nothing to do with the happiness issue.

Happiness is a particular state of mind and heart that let's your conscious know that things seem to be going okay from the more subconscious perspective. It is like the House letting the Senate know that they have no serious complaints. To say that happiness is not necessary is to say that the House should always complain and never show any sign of being satisfied. From that, the Senate would lose any perspective as to which kinds of things would make anything better, because everything would get the same response.

Happiness and the other states of mind and heart are just other complex parts of creation. No big deal. But when you leave them out, you literally lose your mind and heart.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:07 pm

Aristotle talks about the unmoved mover and gives arguments for the unmoved mover,
in both, Metaphysics and his book, Physics.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby phyllo » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:24 pm

Aristotle talks about the unmoved mover and gives arguments for the unmoved mover,
in both, Metaphysics and his book, Physics.
The unmoved mover is not gravity.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:31 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:Aristotle talks about the unmoved mover and gives arguments for the unmoved mover,
in both, Metaphysics and his book, Physics.

Kropotkin

Okay, but I still don't see what any of this has to do with happiness.

Wiki wrote: Let this conclude what we have to say in support of our contention that there never was a time when there was not motion, and never will be a time when there will not be motion. (Physics VIII, 2)

Aristotle spoke of a First Principle as the "unmoved mover whose necessary existence underpins the ceaseless activity of the world of motion" (as do I). Aquinas spoke of a First Mover as the Unmoved Mover who began the universe. Aquinas is talking about regression through time. Aristotle is talking about regression through the hierarchy of logical reasoning.

.. yeah, and gravity doesn't qualify.

My version of what you are talking about is this - God, The Creator.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:35 pm

God is Love. Love, is gravity. God...is Gravity.
I am losing my mind to mandess.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:47 pm

As we know, life in our neck of the woods, has been around for 3 billion years and
animals as we know it, for over 500 million years. Has evolution been a drive for perfection?
No, it is about survival of the species. With each step of evolution, we have become slightly
better in some aspect of survival. Life developed improving techniques for survival.
Motion is one such aspect, the animal that can move slightly faster than another, can
increase its chances of survival and if species can move slightly faster, the species can
increase it changes of survival. Or if enough creatures/animals in one species can adapt
quickly enough to changing environmental changes, it can better survive those changing conditions.
But this is all evolution 101, but what of non physical adaption methods. I would class
two aspects of this type, one is thinking, the brain and its ability to think out an solution
and the other is emotions. Recall we have over 500 million years of life improving its chances
of survival, (not perfection) So emotions must play an evolutionary role in our survival that
has allowed us to survive to this point. We can see the evolutionary point of such instincts
as fight or flight, but what about such emotions such as love, anger, hate, pity, sadness, among
others. These emotions have clearly helped us adapt better to changing conditions or they (emotions)
would not still be in humans. As a thought experiment, try to imagine dinosaurs with our emotions.
A t-rex with sadness or anger or hate or pity. ............................................................

I cannot imagine such animals having a need for such emotions as pity. imagine a t-rex with pity
and feeling pity while chasing down a deer like creature like bambi. That emotion might prevent
the t-rex from catching and killing bambi and thus may lead to starvation. Emotions for such hunting
animals such as a t-rex or shark or lion might end their chances of survival. a hunting animal such as
a shark cannot have such an emotion as pity, but humans, we are a hunting animal and yet do have
pity and love and sadness. We must have those emotions because it did aid in or help our survival
as a species. We see emotions in animals such as dogs and cats, we can see anger in dogs and cats,
(don't feed a cat at its dinner time and you will find out what anger really is)
It is quite possible it is BECAUSE of emotions, human beings are the so called top of the food chain.
But we are also rational creatures. Aristotle called humans, a rational animal. so we can think and
rationalize moments and events and people. this has helped our survival as a species. So the ongoing
struggle between the two, the rational and the emotional, which has gone on for thousands of years is
just a struggle between two sides of the same coin, a means of survival as a species.
Without one or the other, human beings die out, millions of years ago. Perhaps that is why
such hominids as the neanderthal and homo erectus did not survive. They did not have either enough
rational thought or enough emotions or perhaps both. We shall never know but evolution has made
it clear, we need both to survive.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:46 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:I'm not actually sure where to put this, so I am placing it in the philosophy forum.

As stated before, I am old, 56 and I have read, studied and written philosophy for
over 40 years. I have read the posts written around here lately with some interest,
not for their direct content, but what they mean in general. The first point to understand
is this, everything is connected. Problems that look totally separate and isolated, aren't,
they have a connection and sometimes a deeper connection than we think. Everything is
connected, I cannot emphasize this enough.

We have Majs complain about a social media "debate" "encounter" that was weird
and we have gamer bring up a debate between Harris and Chomsky, that collapsed.
I suggest that the two are connected and the connection is communication and
how communication is perceived.

I work with a bunch of young kids and they lack communication skills.
But the issues runs deeper than just communication skills.
It is about (in part) with an overall failure to expand one's vision
beyond yourself. Kids nowdays have no historical sense.
I look at something like, immigration and I see not just the immigration issues
of today, but I see an America that has immigration issues since the beginning.
I am aware of the outright discrimination of the Irish for example from the 1820's
to the 1880's. Signs in shops that said, NO IRISH ALLOWED IN. That was common for
decades in stores nationwide. You include the Italians, Chinese, the Jews, and you
have decades of immigration woes and issues. It is not a new event and has been happening
in the U.S since the beginning, since 1619, when the first ship arrived carrying slaves from
Africa.

We don't exist isolated in time and space from events that have occurred in the past.
Watching the news and listening to politicians, you would not know that America even
has a past and where events occurred in that past. 9/11 didn't occurred in a vacuum,
but exists within a context that takes up time and space that last decades and continents.

so you have a generation that lacks communication skills and no understanding
of where they exists in time and space in relation to prior generations.
Almost like dogs, whose understanding of events is basically that moment of the event
and nothing before or after that event. A dog gets into the garbage and for the dog,
the only thing is that event, but for humans, we see that the dog has gone into the garbage
before, we see the event in time and space and we react to this event in time and space.
or said another way, we see this event within a context that makes sense. I submit
that we have a generation of kids that cannot communicate and cannot place events
into the proper context of time and space. Our understand of events is not different or better
than a dogs. We see 9/11 as an isolated event and react to it as an single, isolated event whereas
9/11 has context that spans decades and space.

As I have noted, these two aspects are related in some fashion, the lack of communication and the
failure to have context. The United States Supreme Court has a bunch of partisans hacks (right wing)
who decide law based on personal and paid for opinions that not only lack any legal justification, but
are seriously bad for America, (citizens united for one).They write opinions that don't even pretend
to offer any legal justifications for their absurd rulings anymore. The court exhibits another
aspect that is pertinent to this, the court has made its personal opinion far more important
than what is good for America. They don't offer any overarching principle that might be a justification
for their actions. Citizens united for example, only says that limits on campaign contributions
limits one's free speech. This ruling means that money is free speech and those with money have
more free speech that than those without money. There is no pretension that this ruling is nothing other
than the legal justification for the wealthy to buy elections. The ruling voids the idea of one man, one vote,
because politicians now just listen to the money, not the voters. Now place citizens united into context
of American history and you see how truly bad a ruling this is. Run the ruling into the past and into the
future and you see how bad this ruling sits with the past history of America and into the future, how
this ruling becomes America for the rich, by the rich. This ruling destroys democracy and so we have
something else now. You see this only by placing the ruling into context of the past and future.

We lack an understanding of time, space and communication. I would like to say that
America has a bright future but that would require people to understand context
of where we are and that context is lacking. An understanding that everything has context
and is related. Citizens united didn't come out of isolation, it had context of time and space,
where everything is connected. Everything is connected in time and space.

Kropotkin


Interestingly enough, generation after generation complains how the younger generation simply doesn't get it.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:46 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:I'm not actually sure where to put this, so I am placing it in the philosophy forum.

As stated before, I am old, 56 and I have read, studied and written philosophy for
over 40 years. I have read the posts written around here lately with some interest,
not for their direct content, but what they mean in general. The first point to understand
is this, everything is connected. Problems that look totally separate and isolated, aren't,
they have a connection and sometimes a deeper connection than we think. Everything is
connected, I cannot emphasize this enough.

We have Majs complain about a social media "debate" "encounter" that was weird
and we have gamer bring up a debate between Harris and Chomsky, that collapsed.
I suggest that the two are connected and the connection is communication and
how communication is perceived.

I work with a bunch of young kids and they lack communication skills.
But the issues runs deeper than just communication skills.
It is about (in part) with an overall failure to expand one's vision
beyond yourself. Kids nowdays have no historical sense.
I look at something like, immigration and I see not just the immigration issues
of today, but I see an America that has immigration issues since the beginning.
I am aware of the outright discrimination of the Irish for example from the 1820's
to the 1880's. Signs in shops that said, NO IRISH ALLOWED IN. That was common for
decades in stores nationwide. You include the Italians, Chinese, the Jews, and you
have decades of immigration woes and issues. It is not a new event and has been happening
in the U.S since the beginning, since 1619, when the first ship arrived carrying slaves from
Africa.

We don't exist isolated in time and space from events that have occurred in the past.
Watching the news and listening to politicians, you would not know that America even
has a past and where events occurred in that past. 9/11 didn't occurred in a vacuum,
but exists within a context that takes up time and space that last decades and continents.

so you have a generation that lacks communication skills and no understanding
of where they exists in time and space in relation to prior generations.
Almost like dogs, whose understanding of events is basically that moment of the event
and nothing before or after that event. A dog gets into the garbage and for the dog,
the only thing is that event, but for humans, we see that the dog has gone into the garbage
before, we see the event in time and space and we react to this event in time and space.
or said another way, we see this event within a context that makes sense. I submit
that we have a generation of kids that cannot communicate and cannot place events
into the proper context of time and space. Our understand of events is not different or better
than a dogs. We see 9/11 as an isolated event and react to it as an single, isolated event whereas
9/11 has context that spans decades and space.

As I have noted, these two aspects are related in some fashion, the lack of communication and the
failure to have context. The United States Supreme Court has a bunch of partisans hacks (right wing)
who decide law based on personal and paid for opinions that not only lack any legal justification, but
are seriously bad for America, (citizens united for one).They write opinions that don't even pretend
to offer any legal justifications for their absurd rulings anymore. The court exhibits another
aspect that is pertinent to this, the court has made its personal opinion far more important
than what is good for America. They don't offer any overarching principle that might be a justification
for their actions. Citizens united for example, only says that limits on campaign contributions
limits one's free speech. This ruling means that money is free speech and those with money have
more free speech that than those without money. There is no pretension that this ruling is nothing other
than the legal justification for the wealthy to buy elections. The ruling voids the idea of one man, one vote,
because politicians now just listen to the money, not the voters. Now place citizens united into context
of American history and you see how truly bad a ruling this is. Run the ruling into the past and into the
future and you see how bad this ruling sits with the past history of America and into the future, how
this ruling becomes America for the rich, by the rich. This ruling destroys democracy and so we have
something else now. You see this only by placing the ruling into context of the past and future.

We lack an understanding of time, space and communication. I would like to say that
America has a bright future but that would require people to understand context
of where we are and that context is lacking. An understanding that everything has context
and is related. Citizens united didn't come out of isolation, it had context of time and space,
where everything is connected. Everything is connected in time and space.

Kropotkin


Interestingly enough, generation after generation complains how the younger generation simply doesn't get it.
User avatar
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:05 pm

OK, after a couple days of work ( a four letter word to be sure)
I return.

We have many disciplines that humans use to understand human activity,
(in no particular order) we have biology, economics, history, philosophy,
psychology, sociology, politics, to name a few. If we were actually animals,
primates, I don't think we would need such an array of tools to identify who we
are and what we need. I don't believe I have seen a chimp with a book which it
needs to identify the various activities of a chimp.
What would a chimp do with a book on economics or politics?
Or cats? I don't believe I have ever seen my cat have a need to look through
books to find out what is necessary to a cat to learn.

Let us take one branch of our studies and look into it, economics.
We have courses and plenty of books which explain human economic activity.
The role of the money and the role of government in the creation of money.
Let us look into this even further, humans have had 8 economic systems
since the beginning, pop quiz, name the 8. Anyway the most successful
was the first, hunter/ gatherer. that system lasted for most of human history
which dates back over a million years and lasted roughly to 10,000 years ago (give or take)
Those who proclaim capitalism as the best system ever probably don't even understand
that humans have had 8 economic systems. We have had 8 systems which suggest we can have
more than 8. As technologies change and as resources change, we can very easily change into
one or more economic systems. Would the hominids that existed under the hunter/gatherer
system even begin to understand our current economic system? I seriously doubt it and I doubt
current hominids would understand the economic system that will exist a couple of thousands of
years from now. As we have had plenty of economic systems, we have had plenty of political
systems. Would anyone care to guess the political system of America, one hundred years from now?
I suggest it won't look anything like todays system. I would suggest that the political and economic
system of one hundred years from now will look vastly different and that is because of actions we
are taking today. This evolution of a country, economic and political and social, is occurring right now,
right here. I have already stated publicly that a civil war is coming to America and the winner
of that civil war will change the course of America. The next civil war will simply be a replay of the
original civil war without the slaves. Expand your vision of the past, present and future.
what is today may not be tomorrow.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
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Posts: 5973
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:41 pm

One of the human aspects we study is something called ethics.
What is ethics? It is the study of human behavior and we how we treat
each other. The rules of human behavior can be reduced to such
idea's such as the golden rule "treat someone as you would be treated by them".
We have such idea's as the ten commandments, thou shall not.....kill for example
and.... thou shall not steal. these rules of ethics have played a considerable role in
the study of ethics and the laws of each country.

Now we have a second idea which is the meaning/purpose of life is the pursuit of happiness.
I believe these two idea in conflict have created a great many issues we face right now.

What if you pursuit of happiness clashes with the rules of behavior as given by "thou
shall not steal". What if your happiness depends on your stealing someone else's wife?
You have a conflict between your happiness and thou shall not steal or covet another man's wife.
How do you resolve this conflict? What is more important, your happiness or the rules?

How would we handle this conflict? We could do one of two things, One: remove rules.
even in an anarchist paradise, we need rules, we just need rules as defined by ourselves
and not an impersonal and far away government. So we cannot remove rules from society,
so we are left with removing the idea that life is the pursuit of happiness.
What else is there, one may ask?

We can remove the idea that life is the pursuit of happiness by understanding what
humans are actually doing. We are part and parcel of life, we are one with the earth
and all its creatures for we are another creature of earth, like lions and tigers and bears, oh my.
That leaves us with evolutionary reasons for our existence and that is simply the perpetuation
and continuation of the species. Like all the other species on earth, we simple exist to
continue the human species. We abide by the evolutionary reason for species existence which
is the continuation of species. It is nothing more complicated than that. We remove any mystical
and false belief in a metaphysical existence. We are of this earth, for this earth and by this earth.
It doesn't need our happiness for the species to continue on and it doesn't require some
fanciful metaphysical explanation for our existence. We are simply following evolution. if we
accept this idea, then the rules that we have must change to accommodate this idea that the
reason for existence is simply the perpetuation and continuation of the species. If it is no longer
about our happiness, we no longer need to chase such silly notions such as our pursuit of goods,
I.E the person who dies with the most toys, wins. this notion of gaining materials goods is no longer
true if we understand the purpose of life is not our happiness, but the continuation of the species is
the purpose of life, then the pursuit of materials goods is a damaging and harmful to the real
purpose of life. Ethics as we know it, changes dramatically if we change the purpose of life.


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5973
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby MechanicalMonster » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:57 pm

Everything is connected in space, and across time, every moment is but another moment that is transitory, our atoms are near eternal...

At some point you realize that none of this gets you anywhere, because all you're doing is trying to excuse yourself for having values and for having the need to assert and act on them singularly, "out of (some) context". You want go be forgiven for being alive-- sorry, no such luck, that "forgiveness" does not exist (except were it is already lacking).

Realize that much of what passes for philosophy or politics or war is simply a desire to be forgiven a "sin" of existing at all.

Filling your head with many perspectives isn't philosophy. Philosophy is what you do with the perspectives you've got. And this "moral" space exists in an entirely "amoral" context, just like the "unmoved mover". There is a deep disconnect which cannot be reconciled to those which it divorces from each other and structurally keeps apart; out of that situation arises everything.

If you put down all your conceptual tools and baggage and clutter, for a few moments, and take a quiet free breath, you may begin to see what I'm talking about.

Thinking (as it is being practiced here) is merely an excuse to go to war, and even peace or pacifism or humanism or whatever such view is only a war against war, which inevitably becomes among the most vicious.
"He who would not sacrifice his own soul to save the whole world, is, as it seems to me, illogical in all his inferences, collectively." --Peirce
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:47 pm

I don't believe in sin and shall be commenting on that, at some point.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5973
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby MechanicalMonster » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:53 pm

I don't mean the "belief".
"He who would not sacrifice his own soul to save the whole world, is, as it seems to me, illogical in all his inferences, collectively." --Peirce
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:29 pm

I have multiple times requested some sort of evidence that god exists.
I have never received anything that would suggest that god exists. I have asked where does god resides
and haven't gotten anything even remotely close to a coherent answer. He resides in our hearts and
he resides everywhere, are two common answers that mean nothing. but a more important question
is this, why does this feeling we have, of some connection to something beyond us exists?
I would suggest we have mistaken the fact that we are star stuff and connected with the universe
because we are made of the same stuff as the universe and mistaken that connection with some
sort of god. We are connected to the universe but it doesn't need a god for some explanation, it is
simply we are star stuff and that is our connection with the universe, because everything is made of
star stuff and we are connected to everything. We mistake this connection to the universe with some
sort of silly idea of god. We don't need an explanation of god to understand our connection to the universe.
In fact, I would suggest that this tie to god has damaged us in a multitude of ways. Damaged us in ways
we don't even understand. We have come to believe that we are separate from the universe but we are
not because we are the exact same thing as the universe. We get confused by the different forms
but those forms are made of the exact same things, atoms. The atoms connect like Lego blocks and
create different forms like cars, tree's, bikes, humans, cats, stars and stoves. everything looks different
but is actually created by the same stuff that created us. Lego's is the best way to describe the universe.
Atoms are the Legos of the universe and everything is made of atoms. What we have Interpreted as a spiritual
meaning to the universe is simply our physical, scientific connection to all the other matter in the universe.
Now some misguided soul will claim this is god incarnate, this connection, but they are wrong. There is no god and no proof of god. The universe and the connections of the universe has no need for god. No need to muddle up
the water with some false claim that there is a god and heaven and hell and angels and demons and guilt and sin.
None of that exists and there is simply no proof of any of it. We have simple mistaken one thing for another.
We are material in a material universe. there is no need to posit anything else.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5973
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

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