a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:51 pm

the love of patriotism is really the love of the static, unmoving universe.....

to love one country is to love what was, WAS, best in the country
and patriotism is really love of that/those static qualities which
in America is those tired and stale words, Truth, justice and the American way.....

but truth and justice and the American all change, they all exist in time
and have changed over time.....what was truth for our founding fathers is
no longer truth today and what is justice is no longer justice as thought of
by those same founding fathers and the American way... I defy any to
offer up a valid and coherent MODERN definition of the American way....

no, patriotism is love of a static and unchanging America....
an America that no longer exists because it has change and time
itself is the agent of change... we are no longer who we were because
we have existed within time and the very fact we have gone through time
means we have changed and our society, our culture, our political and
economic structure has change because it has gone through time....

we cannot understand who we are and who is America without understanding
that we have and society has gone through time and has changed.....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:45 pm

so the philosophy of the future is less about the static
philosophy of Descartes or Kant and more like Darwin....
it must be able to change and adapt... in fact, the heart
of the philosophy of the future is change....for the human being
is not static, not changeable, but the human being exists in time
and changes all the time, we change because we age, we change
because of experiences, we change because of our insights into
experiences.....if there is one thing about life we can state for sure,
that it changes.... and the philosophy of the future must be able to
account for the ever changing life that is the human being.....

that is why we cannot, cannot use math as a guidepost into the
philosophy of the future because math doesn't change....it isn't
adaptable for daily use.....we can use science because the facts of
science change all the time, but those facts rarely tell us anything
about us as human beings, those facts tell us about us as animals,
but not as human beings and those facts never lead to a why....
why do we exist? how we exist science can tell us, but not the why....

we might turn to religion but religion is static, unchanging,
unmoving.....religion is fixed into a certain time and place,
unable to adapt to the ever changing world and
ever changing human beings that live in that world......

no, philosophy is the only possible path into the future but
as I said, a philosophy more like evolution and less like
Descartes.............

the philosophy of the future will look something like this.......

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:44 pm

the philosophy of the future....

in the beginning..... was.... it existed billions of years ago...

and in time came, the earth and the sun and all the planets...
then came the sea and sky and land, then came life..
and even life itself ebbed and flowed.... from days of prosperity
to lean days and back again..... life itself was threaten with
extinction multiple times but it bounced back....

and after billions of years, from a large pool of life came us...
we humans, so proud and yet we must admit we are latecomers
to this parade of life.....

we came from apes and lizards and frogs and multi-cell creatures of all types....
our family history is a long and complicated one....we are related to fly's and
cats and cows and dogs and all types of life.......

our very existence is about one change to another to another to another....
billions of years of evolution has brought us to today.......

we are part of all those animals that we came from......
so the second fact about us, us human beings is we are of and from animals....
we are the product of billions of years of evolution....
but we are the first to be able to ask,
what are we going to be tomorrow?

animals have a wide variety of survival skills... some run fast and some
are strong and some have sharp teeth and some have sharp claws....
but what are the survival skills of the human creature?
language and reason and imagination.... those are the skill set of human beings
that has allow us to survive for a couple of million of years........

we are a problem solving species.....and language and reason and imagination
allow us to solve problems......

we have evolved as a species and that evolution is marked in our
ever larger and ever changing social structure by the ever growing infrastructure
we humans have.... we have gone from the small family structure to a world wide
network of connections and interconnections that tie us together as human beings....
the human race has grown from a few thousand to billions and the infrastructure
needed to manage that number has grown as well....that marks our evolution....
the ever larger and ever changing infrastructure needed for us.....an infrastructure
that allows human beings to go on and prosper....

we cannot be tied down or fixed into an ism or ideology that doesn't change
and adapt with the ever changing conditions of human life......

politics and economics and history and social studies all change and adapt
to ever changing conditions of humans..... so why must philosophy be fixed
and tied down to a set philosophy?....

just as because of changing human conditions, we have changed economic systems,
from hunter/gatherer to barter systems to communism to socialism to capitalism,
are just some of the economic systems we have had in our million year existence....

and we have changed political systems to adapt to ever changing conditions, from
monarchy to dictatorship to democracy to oligarchy and beyond.... we
have had many different types of political systems to adapt to the ever changing
human conditions......

and yet philosophy is suppose to be a fixed, one size fits all proposition.....
it cannot be.......it to must change and adapt to the ever changing conditions
of the human being......

an open ended philosophy... one that doesn't limit us to one or even two
choices, but is open to every choice.......because at one time or another,
every choice is possible for a human being.... for freedom is choice...
to be free means we are free to choose and we have choices available to us.....

I cannot choose to be a mother for biology prevents me... I am, in that way,
determined, but I can choose to be a father and in doing so, I validate
that possibility.....

so the question of free will vs determinism is really one about what is
possible for me... biology and other such factors prevent me from making
certain choices... I cannot choose to fly by flapping my arms... but I can
choose to fly an airplane... biology determines, limits certain choices,
but we can make other choices which is free will....so we are determined
and we have free will......and we have lived with that for a million years
and as long as human beings exists, we shall continue to live with it.....

among human beings choices is the higher choices and the lower choices....
we can choose our animal nature of lower instincts like anger and hate
and violence or we can choose our higher human nature which is love and
peace and charity and kindness...... biology doesn't prevent us from making
these choices, they are free will choices........and which choice will you make?
the higher or lower choices?

nowhere in the philosophy of the future is talk of meaning or purpose or
the will of anyone......those things have no right to exist in the future....
for meaning and purpose is found every single day with the choices we make....
it is in our free will that we find our meaning, our purpose......

more to come....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:11 pm

and with our choices, we can choose to follow security
or freedom or justice.... if we choose security, we by that
choice, limit our choices... for to protect ourselves and that is
what we mean by security, we must limit the rights of people....
we must narrow the choices of people.... to protect ourselves, we
cannot allow free and open immigration, we must have walls and borders
and police and military presence everywhere..... we must feel safe and
by limiting choices, we can feel safe....

or we can choose justice and justice is about equality.....
justice is the act of treating everyone equally regardless
of status or wealth or power or job.... everyone gets treated the same....
the only choice we make with justice is to treat everyone equally...
there is no other choice possible.....

and that is the power of the human being... we make choices....
animals cannot make choices, instinct decides for them......
but we human, we are creatures that choose... we can choose
tangible objects like food or the TV or walking or we can choose
the intangible like choosing justice or security.......

philosophy is not just about, for example, Leibniz made monads the centerpiece
of his philosophy, but philosophy is about how are we to live....
philosophy is a way of life... it is a choice to live in a certain way....

philosophy is about choices and how we make those choices.....
the philosophy of the future is about choices and how we make those choices....

why should we choose justice over security......

and choosing justice over security creates our purpose and our meaning....
and justice becomes a way of life.........making choices and seeing what
are our possibilities as human beings.... that is philosophy........

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:28 pm

the philosophy of the future is an holistic matter....
it has no Descartes mind/ body dilemma because it
encompasses, not separates the mind/body....

the philosophy of the future includes, it doesn't exclude....
is it a system? like Hegel or Spinoza? no, it isn't a system
but it talks about systems because we exists in a wide variety
of systems as we ourselves are a system.....

the question in any system is how much dissent, opposition
can a system handle before it begins to break down? how many parts
of a car can break down before the car stops working.....
one if the system is a key component....several if the parts are
not necessary ones like the radio and the headlights and the dashboard
lights don't work, it doesn't affect the fact the car still runs.....

every system has its breaking point and we must discover our political
system and economic and social systems breaking point.......

the philosophy of the future investigates the breaking point of those systems....
and wonders how much dissent we can allow before the system breaks down....

it is only by feedback...dissent can we return to equilibrium... we
no longer are at equilibrium in our systems and we need to have dissent
to understand how to return to equilibrium......

because it is in equilibrium that keeps a system running....
a system that no longer has equilibrium, begins to fail and will soon
stop..... our political and economic and social systems have begun to
fail and that is because we no longer are in equilibrium with our systems.....

equilibrium is balance and we have lost balance in our systems.....
both in the system itself and in our relationship with our systems,
we have lost balance.....

the philosophy of the future is about balance and equilibrium
and systems and how to maintain that balance and maintain
that equilibrium and how to keep the system running....

the equation is the philosophy of the future.....
1 + 1 = 2.... this is the balance and the equation we strive after....

so imagine.... what is your philosophy of the future?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:26 pm

in our philosophy of the future...
we not only listen to reason but we listen to emotion....

I have in trying to find a course of action in my life,
used reason.... and in my use of reason, I quite often
missed some aspect... my reason missed possibilities...
I know of women who used emotions and intuition who have
studied the same course of action and by emotion and intuition
saw the aspects I missed... quite often women have a better
grasp of a situation then men do and that is by emotion
and intuition...... recall, that we are a problem solving
species and some problems are best solved by reason and logic
and some problems are best solved by emotion and intuition.....

the philosophy of the future will integrate reason and logic with
emotion and intuition.....for we have skills of survival, tools
we use that allow us to survive...language, reason, imagination
are some of the tools that has allowed the human being
to survive these million years and some of those tools are
emotion and intuition and we have to account for these tools
in our philosophy of the future.....

what is the role of emotion and intuition in our lives and for our future?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:44 pm

the philosophy of the future:

the title of the book is "Critique of the modern age"

the critique is an attempt to find out what is authentic,
what is truly believe in and what is worth believing in....

what is authentic? those who claim belief in god..... do they believe because
they were taught to do so as children, or do they believe because they fear
eternal damnation and want/expect an eternal reward of heaven....
do these believers believe because it is a custom to believe, something
the neighbors do and everyone wants to fit into the neighborhood.....

a true believer is one who believes in god even, even if there was no
reward or punishment for belief or disbelief.....and regardless of what
the neighbors think and regardless of how you were raised.....

believers often believe because it is socially acceptable.....
and how is that authentic?

so what is really worth believing in?

and what is price paid for having such beliefs?

one can rightly say that this is an unauthentic age...
for what beliefs do we hold that are by themselves
and not held for insincere reasons like custom and being
socially acceptable?

there is a cost for holding insincere beliefs
and that cost is living in a false reality.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:14 am

last night, I dreamt I was skating on frozen pond....

all I could see was the ice stretching as far as the eye could see....

and there were hundreds and thousands, indeed millions skating on this ice....

everyone was laughing and giggling and having a grand old time....

but I saw something that these millions didn't see...

they could only see the thin layer of ice they skated on....

not seeing the depths of the water below them....

not knowing how deep the water below them really went....

the people didn't care or know or understand,

how shallow was the ice below them.....

the people could only see the ice below them

and thinking that is all there was...

ice that went on forever...

the depth of the ice was not even thought about.....

and this is a parable of our modern age.....

our understanding runs only as deep as that thin ice....

but we philosophers..... we must look beyond the thin ice we exist on

we must delve deep into experiences and deep below the ice.......

what does it mean? that is thought beyond the shallow ice....

how are we to live?

finding the answer means going to the depths of our existence...

we must dive deep to find our truths......

not everyone makes it back from such deep depths...

one man collapsed while hugging a horse......

he finally felt the weight of those deep dives into our soul....

that is why we must have a secure line back to the surface....

without it, we could become lost in the misty depths of our soul......

I.... I could never be happy just skimming the ice and thinking

that this is all there is.... just a layer of ice.....

I must explore the depths......I must dive deep....

what does it matter to me... that you skim the surface....

I want to know..... what is below......

and that is the difference between us.....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:30 am

over the years, I have read the works of various people
including many 19th century writers....

the other day I was thinking about what difference existed between
the 19th century and the enlightenment period (the one I am studying right now)

I tried to think of the writers of the 19th century compared to the writers
of earlier ages.....one example I thought about was Soren Keierkegaard....
and Marx and Dostoyevsky.... I recall in reading those three, among others,
was the anguish in their works.... the anguish you read in those three, again among others,
was in plain sight, not hidden in any way, shape or form.....

these cries of anguish from these three isn't heard in the 17th century or in
fact, any time before... not since the cries of anguish in the old testament....
the Hebrews lamenting before the lord....
not the Greeks or Romans or anyone in the medieval period or
the Renaissance or the Enlightenment period, did you hear cries
of anguish...... not until after the French Revolution did you hear such woeful
cries.......

the question becomes why.... why does the modern man have such anguish?

what changed? From Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment, Notes from the underground,
Brothers Karamazov.... none of these were possible in the age of Enlightenment or even earlier...
or Kierkegaard cries of anguish.... in his many books....he wrote this,

"What I really need to be clear about is "what am I to do" not, what am I to know".....

this idea is unknown during the age of the Enlightenment.... what they wanted
was to know and from that, they would know what to do.....

the cries of anguish from the Hebrews was directed to god, but the
cries of the 19th century man was directed to other men, not god...
for god no longer existed for these men....

what did the 19the century man discover? that men existed in society, in a cultural
group, in a society.... that was the great discovery of the 19th century man...
that he didn't live alone and just as the 18th century man found the positive side
of existence, the 19th century discovered the negative side of existence...

the 18th century thought and the 19th century felt.....

the world is a comedy to those who think and
to those who feel, the world is a tragedy......

in that sentence, we see the difference between the 18th century
and the 19th century....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:06 pm

if you look at history... you can see a flow to it..
it just takes time and study to see it....

if the medieval man wanted answers, he referred to authority, be it the bible or
one of the Saints, like Augustine or the church itself or the pope...
the starting point of searching for answers began with some authority
and then seeing what authority said about something....

this cycle of looking for answers in authority was over a thousand years old...

then came Luther...he only wanted to reform the church.. he had not intention of
of tearing the church apart, he just wanted the church to become more
responsive to the needs of the people....

one of the points of this theology revolution was that people could find the
truth, the theology truth of religion and god by themselves.... they didn't need
authority to discover the truth... all they needed was the bible and this was one of
Luther main idea's.... which is to make the bible accessible to everyone... which means
having the bible in the language of the people and not in Latin....because Latin was
the language of the elite and not the common people......

this idea that human beings can find the truth by themselves began
in religion... theology....

the first people to expand this thought beyond religion, theology was
the scientist....now Luther lived from 1483-1546 with his 95 thesis
being posted in 1517....the scientist who began to expand Luther idea
was Copernicus who live from 1473-1543... he started this idea of the scientist
not looking toward authority for answers.... in science that meant not looking
toward Aristotle.....Copernicus then came Kepler 1571-1630 and
then Galileo 1564-1642..... each of them didn't look to authority like
the medieval man, but they looked at nature itself... and they began to
reason out what the universe was and didn't depend on authority to tell them....
the first philosopher who tried this was Descartes... 1596-1650....
although Hobbes was born first, 1588-1679... he didn't begin writing
philosophy until his 40's, thus he came after Descartes....now philosophers
begin to think for themselves and not go to authority for answers.....
so you have this trend first beginning in religion, then science, then philosophy....
the trend of not depending on authority for your answers but looking for them
with your own eyes, with your own reason...... Luther began this....

with each passing generation, this trend of not looking to authority for answers
became more pronounced, with the rise of the enlightenment, this trend
became dominant....it was one of the bywords of the enlightenment,
don't trust authority, but look for yourself to see your answers.....
find the experience and then make your own judgments about that experience....

the modern history of philosophy is nothing more then this.... instead of looking toward
authority for answers, look for yourself and make your own Judgment.......

philosophy and science for that matter followed the path of looking for yourself
to see your answers.....

but there came a time when there was a problem, 1900......
Einstein created answers that were outside of the realm of
experiences....you can't experiences the speed of light,
you can't experience the movement he described....

more and more as the 20th century progressed came experiences
that we couldn't experience for ourselves.... World War One,
then came World War Two and the equal experience of the Holocaust...

Science equally created knowledge that we couldn't experience....
and it is still creating experiences that we cannot ourselves experience...
Relativity to Heisenberg Uncertainty principle to quantum theory to
the superstring theory to a holographic universe....we cannot experience these
things for ourselves.....we must take the scientist word that these things exist....

the common man can no longer follow the scientist and the philosopher
and experience these things.......

the enlightenment basic point was to understand the universe through
our own experiences and our own reason... but we cannot do that any
longer, for we cannot experience our universe the same way anymore....
and we cannot reason about it the same way anymore......

we have become estranged from our enlightenment past....
but the enlightenment has done its work in the fact, we cannot
return to the medieval way of resorting to authority as our
guide for answers... so we cannot use authority and we cannot
use experience....

this is the crisis of the modern man... we cannot use authority and
we cannot understand experiences...... first we must experience and then
we can understand... that is the human way........

now what?

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:34 pm

first we must experience and then we understand.....

this is my formula for life.....

but some experiences cannot be understood in terms of reason,
rationality and thought.....

a friend dies... how are we to understand that with reason....
or your mother dies.... how, how can reason understand that....

we react with emotion because reason isn't enough sometimes,
rationality cannot explain the death of one's mother...
it can only be felt....

in moments of great sadness, how can words, mere words explain
the depth of one's emotions...

how in moments of great joy or excitement or terror,
can mere words explain those experiences....

I felt terror at watching the movie "Halloween"....

this simple sentence fails on so many levels to explain the terror
of watching the movie "Halloween".... the emotion of terror is beyond
words and beyond.... mere description of the simple word, terror......

terror is not described, it is felt, deeply and down to the bone....

that is why we have emotions and feelings because some experiences are
beyond mere words and description of those experiences........

music moves me, I am listening to it right now.... how do I describe
the music? it is lovely and soft and carries sadness....
mere wasted words that describe nothing...you must experience
the music to understand the power of the music........

emotions may not explain experiences but emotions and feelings are
a way to react to experiences that exist beyond words and rationality......

I have had experiences that felt like a gut punch, literally felt like a gut punch....
words spoken, sentences completed, nouns and adverbs faithfully followed,
just words......and it was all I could do to keep myself standing from the force
of those words.....

it's time we broke up......I have bad news, you father is dead....
I never loved you.......I wish you were never born.....

words, just mere words silently delivered... words that
hit the mark and experienced.....words that hit, like a stomach punch.....

there is nothing one can do but experience these words... you can't put
language to these experiences and you can't reason with these words.....
you can only experience them.....

first you experience then you understand.... but some experiences
are never understood, just experienced.......

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:58 pm

it seems that whatever faith a man professes, it doesn't
affect his morals or his conduct... we have those who claim to be
Christians and they claim belief in Jesus but they don't believe
in his words.... Jesus wanted Christians to practice love and
charity and peace and what does the latest budget by IQ45 do?
it increases the defense department budget by billions, decreases
the state department by billions, takes away money from the poor
and gives it to the wealthy, takes health care away from children and
families... in fact, the entire budget of the GOP is totally against everything
that Jesus taught and yet, yet the GOP claims it is the party of
Christianity and the party of Jesus but it doesn't follow Jesus
precepts and the party doesn't follow Jesus sayings or teachings,
the GOP doesn't practice love, it doesn't practice peace, it doesn't
practice charity... the GOP is the party of hate, anger, violence
and most of all, the GOP is the party of money....and Jesus
had contempt for those who worship money, like the GOP party..

your claims to be moral are disproven by your budgets and
and by your actions

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:13 pm

we exist with a large number of emotions....
emotions that must have had some evolutionary usefulness
or they wouldn't have survive.....hate, anger, love, pity, charity,
joy, happiness, loneliness.....in different ways, each of these emotions
drive people to action of some nature...these emotions are part of nature
as we are part of nature...... when people say, these are the laws of nature,
they are talking about, in part, emotions......when people ask, what is nature,
part of the answer is emotions, feelings, logic, reason, how humans react to
each other, all of this is nature....when people say, how can nature be so cruel,
it isn't, it is us that is cruel, as we are part of nature.....some emotions are positive
and some are negative, one of the most negative ones is loneliness.....
loneliness is proof that we humans are social creatures and must, must
interact with each other....loneliness is one way to tell if you are getting
enough interactions with other human beings......and loneliness fills that
bars and loneliness writes ads asking for companionship.....

we have all felt loneliness, sometimes even while in relationships....

loneliness is needs unmet.....and sometimes the most alone we feel
is in the midst of large crowds because we are in a crowd, but
not part of a crowd.....we must feel a part of something, something
real and something tangible.....we must connect.... we must connect
to other human beings, this is why solitary confinement is the worse
punishment doled out in a prison.....this is why human beings in solitary
confinement go crazy....

the truth is, we must connect with other human beings or we can become
sick, both mentally and physically.....

to my mind, loneliness is the saddest of emotions because it is the one
that can be most avoided.... all it takes to rid one of loneliness is
a connection to another human being, even here on ILP,
a connection can be made that steers us clear of loneliness....

and this is why we must avoid hate and anger and fear because
these emotions drive people away and increases the chance of
loneliness.... why connect with someone who hates or has anger
or is gripped in fear?

the happy and joyful and loving people, they are the ones who
are less, LESS, likely to be lonely because people want to
be with these people, not so much the hateful and angry.......
we avoid those types.....

human beings are social creatures, we need each other,
we cannot exist without each other, and so we must treat
each other with the understanding that we cannot exist
separately, apart from each other.... and that is the beginning of
human morality...... we are kind because we need each other
and we give because we need each other, we practice charity
because we need each other, and, and we love because we
need each other....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:45 pm

Sepere aude.....Dare to know......

this is Kant's formula for the enlightenment, dare to know.....

and very few take him up on his offer......

most like Christians, claim to already know the truth from revelation
or some other source of authority....my father told me, my society told me,
god told me, the state told me......each is a source of authority and supposed truth...

authority is authority be it the state or be it Plato or be it the bible or be it god.....

the entire mission of the enlightenment was to free man from this authority
and to allow man to think for himself....to find the truth for himself....
to dare to know.......and to follow the truth wherever it leads the truth seeker....

I have explored religion and I have explored several different philosophical
systems and I have explored several different political systems and I have
explored several different types of economic systems....I dared to know.....

because I learned that my thinking was really just thought that was
taught to me as a child... I learned customs and traditions and
habits and authority from a wide variety of sources.....
my family and my school and the TV and the media and friends
and all from birth....children, we are sponges and we want to learn
and we think/believe that the things we learn are true and right....

once I dare to know, I learned that most of what I was taught was crap,
designed to train and indoctrinate and to conform me to a certain mind set...
I was not trained to see or seek the truth but to accept the authority of those who
taught me, family, school, society, media.....
I was being programmed to be a good citizen, to be a "useful" member of society,
to earn my keep, to learn a skill to become a good worker.........

I wasn't being taught to think for myself, I wasn't taught to question authority,
for disobedience is the greatest crime in society as it is in religion........

I wasn't told to "dare to know" no, I was told to accept what I was being told....
accept authority..... to know my place and never, never ever rock the boat..
to be a good team player is to know obedience to the "higher" authority....
for society knows best for me.... for authority knows best for me....
who was I to claim a greater understanding, greater knowledge about things,
then society?

indeed who am I to claim greater knowledge then society?

but, but I do claim such a thing... for I have dared to know....

I have as best as I can, for I have done as one has asked....

"it is not enough to have the courage of our convictions,
one must have the courage for an attack upon our convictions"

and those convictions are those things taught to me as a child..... customs and habits
and indoctrinations to be a better citizen and programming to be a docile
and happy worker/consumer......

to follow the enlightenment is to break free from all prior indoctrinations
and to dare to know....... regardless where the truth leads you.....


who here is brave enough to..... dare to know...... sepere aude....


Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:17 pm

upon reflection, myths are also part and parcel of authority...
so I was taught myths as well as customs and traditions
and my indoctrinations into modern society.....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:55 pm

Kant famously wrote how he was awoken from his "dogmatic slumbers"
by the writings of Hume.....

but what exactly were Kant's "dogmatic slumbers"?

I cannot speak for Kant, but I can speak for my "dogmatic slumbers"
one such dogma was the idea of "rugged individualism"......
it was part of the myths, convention, custom, habit, authority
that I was taught as a child.......

I had my "dogmatic slumbers" until I began my own "sepere aude"....

it was a long and tortuous journey to find my own truths, away
from the myths and lies my father told me......

we each have our own myths, convention, habits, tradition,
authority from our childhood that was taught to us....
taught to us as truth and to be believed in as firmly as any gospel.....

so what "dogmatic slumbers" do you have? what convictions do you have?
and do you have the courage for an attack upon your convictions, your
"dogmatic slumbers"

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:43 pm

I had one of those strange incomprehensible dreams last night....

I dreamt I was a tourist but I was in very, very cold place...
someone in my dream made a point of the day's weather being rather
warm at 22 degree's...because it was so cold, the land and sea and sky
all looked different... everything seemed to be frozen...

but I felt mostly like a tourist and upon thinking about it,
I feel like I am a tourist here and now.... trying to figure
out the local customs and practices, but not having much success....
I speak the language but I really don't speak the language...
I seem to miss so much and I don't know why....

I guess what I think I am saying is, in my life right now,
I feel like a tourist trying to understand the local area I am
visiting.....trying to make sense of everything.....
I know this is not very clear, but I can't help that.....

how can we be a tourist in our own life?

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:43 pm

in my readings of the enlightenment, I read quite a bit
about the "laws of nature" and how we ought to conform
to the "laws of nature"...(the Chinese are big on this also)
the question becomes, what are the "laws of nature"?

the "laws of nature" are the "laws" or rules that nature follows....
gravity for example, is a "law of nature" as is evolution,
and already, we follow these "laws of nature"....we must, must
conform to evolution and gravity and any other law/rule of nature
we face.....in fact, this is the point of a "law of nature" we cannot
escape them....just as human beings cannot escape our animal
nature, we must eat and sleep and drink and fornicate...
we are simply following our already built in rules/laws of actions...
for example, try to stop your breathing.... hold your breath..
and all that will happen is you pass out and you start breathing again,
or try to stop your heart from beating, can't or stop your liver from working,
you just can't.... these are laws/rules we must obey, we have no choice.....
so these "laws of nature" exist in us, within us and we have no choice....
we are determined for we have no choice.....determinism rules at this level....

but we have free will in other areas.....and this is important....
we are free to act in several other area's.....my behavior or actions
toward you or anyone is set by free will, I have a choice....we have freedom
of actions in many areas......

but in both cases of determinism and free will, we are the agents of actions...
in some cases, we have no choice as in certain "laws of nature", gravity and evolution
and in other cases, we are free to act as we will....

now to revert to my language, determinism is the lower agency of the human
being, we must act or be in a certain way, we have no choice... we must breath
and our heart must beat, we have no choice....freedom of choice however is
the higher functions of the human being......the "law of nature" that determines
us doesn't determine our higher actions.... it is important to understand that
within us lies the "laws of nature" but we have freedom of action in certain cases....

and if we make a choice, we are using our higher function of freedom, we are using
our higher level of being human.....so what does this mean?

this is simply pointing out that we can create with our own choices and our
own freedoms, a much better, a much more human earth......Jean-Paul Sartre
once wrote, that "hell is other people" well that doesn't need to be true...
we can also create paradise without any resort to "utopia"......
we create heaven and hell by our actions toward others...
the boss who is a dick, (I have one of those right now) has made
a choice of being a dick.... he doesn't have to be, he is freely acting.....
he is making a choice..... and in doing so, making my life very difficult,
but to be clear, he is not being determined to be an asshole, he is making a
choice and he doesn't need to do that..... "hell is other people"
but this doesn't need to be true... we hold, in our hands,
whither we live in hell or heaven... we choose.....

there is a young bagger who is lazy and useless and has lied to my face...
so needless to say, I don't really care for him.....he thinks I am a dick for wanting
him to do his job.... a conflict of perception....he is 18 and he does 18 year
old things like not doing his job and thinking a job is fun and games...
and for him, it is just fun and games, he doesn't need to do this...
whereas I am 40 years older then he is and I take the job seriously,
(even if I truly hate my job like I really hate my job, I still take it seriously)
he has made a choice of working and I made a choice of working and if
you are going to make a choice of working, then you need to work, that is why
it is called work....I expect him and anyone else who is a bagger to actually do
their job as I do my job to the best of my abilities........ the conflict that arises is
because of our different understanding of what it is to work....
if he even did the minimal amount of work, I wouldn't care what he did....
he thinks I am making his life hell, I've heard this from other baggers,
"hell is other people"......but because he is so lazy he is making tons more
work for everyone else and that is what I object to.... he is creating more
work for everyone....trying to get his to do his job is a losing cause
because that is not important to him, his work ethic is here and my work
ethic is there and thus conflict arises....(I am not the only person with a
problem with this bagger) I cannot create heaven for this kid because that
means he is doing even less then he is doing now, which isn't really possible,
or I just leave him alone and nothing gets done and my job is even harder then
it already is.....if I let him go, I work that much harder.... so the choice
is do I let him be and allow him his freedom to do to whatever and let him have
his heaven but make my life hard and difficult, certainly not heaven....

and this choice is typical of choices we have every single day....
we can make people life much easier or much harder but again
context is what makes the difference......mistreating a child because
you were mistreated as a child is making a person life hell for no reason,
as opposed to trying to get someone to do the job there were hired for...

the kid fails to understand what is involved and what happens when he
doesn't do his job but because he is young, he doesn't care, it doesn't matter
to him if stuff gets done or not whereas for me, it does matter because
it will my job harder or easier depending.....lack of understanding,
failure to understand why it is so important to do his job, this is
the failure of this kid.......he simply doesn't understand.....
and conflicts arise from this, one understand and one doesn't,
and conflict arises..... and this conflict creates the "hell of other people"

we have different perspective on matter and conflict arises....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:17 am

what is the value of philosophy?

is it to understand the world?

is it to change the world?

is it to inform the world?

the correct answer is

yes!


Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:33 am

one of the things philosophers believed in was the limits
of human knowledge... Descartes method was a manifesto
of limits as was Locke and all the enlightenment thinkers....
we cannot know everything... there are limits to our knowledge
because there are limits to our senses and our understanding....

I disagree with this... I believe that there are no limits to
our senses and our understanding..... what is missing is
our asking the right questions..... find the right questions
and the answers become clearer......

as technology and science grows in ability to see and hear and touch
farther and farther, we can experience more and more and in that
experience, we can begin to understand......

we can see galaxies almost back to the beginning of time and that
experience tells us something about the universe and with each leap
in technology and science, we can experience and understand more and more....

can we know everything? .... yes, given enough time, we can
experience everything and thus understand everything...
but it will take time.... will our species last long enough?
that remains to be seen..... I don't know....
but if we survive, we will know and that thought alone
should give us encouragement to survive...........

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:49 am

most enlightenment thinkers believed as Hume and
Diderot believed, that the world is orderly and subject
to universal, irreversible laws......

yet, we know that the world is not orderly, how do we
reconcile the two thoughts?

we say the world is an orderly existence at this moment,
and we cannot posit beyond this moment...
we can take as habit, like Hume suggested, that
chances are, tomorrow will be an orderly existence and
subject to universal laws.... but we can't know that,
at best, we can only assume that.....

is the world orderly..... at this moment, around me, yes, it is..
I can't speak for anyone else, anywhere else, but here and now, yes,
the world is orderly..... subject to the passage of time which is not
orderly and not subjected to universal laws......

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:42 pm

I don't see how you get morals/morality from the "laws of nature"...
the fact that the earth revolves around the sun or gravity exists,
doesn't get one a morality.....motion does not create a morality....
evolution doesn't seem to create a morality, although humans are
social creatures... we need social contact or we go insane or even die.....
that social contact might give an outline of a morality/morals, but by itself
it doesn't give a culture morals/morality......

looking at different cultures, one doesn't see much of a common thread
between the different cultures and different moralities.... every culture
seems to have different morality and a different way of looking at things...
and none of it seem to be inspired by the "laws of nature" or science.....

I don't see how one can get morality/morals from the "laws of nature"
or science because they are apples and oranges... they do and are different
things.....morality is an human invention with no obvious influence from
the "laws of nature/science"........

one aspect is the fact that earlier societies didn't know or have "laws of nature"
or science to depend on....morality/morals arise for earlier societies from
god or the rules of god or the priest interpretation of the rules of god, but
not from the "laws of nature"..... we must look elsewhere to find what
creates morality/morals because it isn't from science or the "laws of nature"

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
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