a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:04 pm

in regards to my last few post, am I understood?

somehow I don't think so....... well, it is certainly not my loss...
I have thrown a bomb into the mix and no one noticed it going off.....


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:08 pm

I understand you very well. You are a man born into unfortunate circumstances, discontent at the world but not wanting to be labelled a monster, looked for a civilized means to vent your aggressions, taken advantage of by the Liberal and Democratic predators who see you as easy pickings to use and to manipulate as a soldier for their agenda.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Some Guy in History » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:12 pm

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:22 pm

as I continue my study of philosophy and am now
onto Descartes.... one of the focus points of Descartes is his
reliance on Method and methodology.....his pursuit of philosophy
lies in his methods for understanding philosophy.... indeed within
some titles of his books include the word method for example.
"Discourse on method, optics, Geometry and Meteorology"
his goal is to create a scientific method for the understanding of
the world....his method and he calls it such, involves getting to
a point in which "I may assume as a general rule, that all things we conceive
clearly and distinctly are true" the problem with "method" is that by the very
fact of having a "method" you are committed into a certain method of searching
for the truth.....you are forced into searching for the truth in one way...
and one way only.....whereas the truth can be found in any number of ways...
I conduct thought experiments and in doing so, I discover aspects of
whatever I am thinking about... but that is not my only method of searching
for the truth and I think this is important.... as the truth is wide and varied,
we must search for the truth in a wide and varied way.... this reliance on method
can only cover certain parts of the "truth".... some truths are found outside of
method and we must understand that......

so what is your method for finding the truth?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
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Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:55 pm

one interpretation of philosophy is that the questions of philosophy are actually
meaningless.... it doesn't matter or is unimportant what is
the meaning of life...... those questions that keep us up at night,
are meaningless questions that have no answers and are pointless to ask....

that is one point of view.....that philosophy has no relevance in the world...
science tells us that the sun is 93 million miles away from earth
philosophy tells us WHY that is important....science tells us how,
philosophy tells why and that is the value of philosophy....

because all question of humanity are covered by these little words,
who, what, when, where, how and why....

is philosophy meaningless?

I believe that the most important questions in life are about the "Why"
and not about the who, what, when, where and how.......

a child asking his dad, "why is the sky blue" is a philosopher
and a child asking her dad, "where do babies come from" is a philosopher...

they want to know not only how, but they want to know why....

and we spend years stopping children from asking these inconvenient
questions because we hate to admit we don't know, why.......

Why do people die? a child's question and yet, so important....

the big question are important because they provide us with reference...

for example.... we have facts such as the earth is 93 million miles from earth
and the earth distance from the mars is 206 million miles and the distance from
the earth to Venus is 27 million miles and then we add mercury and that is 100 million miles
(right now).... and from these facts with the knowledge that we revolve around the sun
and you can create a map of the inner solar system from this knowledge, from these facts.....
and still you can't answer the question of, why?

but these questions provide us with a reference point, we can grasp where we are
in the universe and that oftentimes is the point of these questions, to gain an
understanding of where we are in the universe.... and we do this in terms of
our place in human society... I am middle class America and that identifies me
into a certain place in society.... much of our knowledge is simple to identify
our place in society and our place on earth and our place in the universe ......

our knowledge is simple a marker for where we are in the universe....
I am a philosopher and that is a marker for my place in the universe....
it identifies my place within society for me and for others......

and in some respects this answers the questions of why philosophy
is important and why the so called "meaningless" questions of philosophy
are actually meaningful..... because the "why" answers to our questions also
marks our place in the universe....who, what, when, where, how and why, are
simply questions that identifies the location of people, time, events and the how....
those simple questions are a means of locating things.... locations that are
identify by space, time, people, relationships and the reason of their existence.....

this idea of knowing our relationship to the universe is very important to people......
we need to know where exactly we exist in the universe and thus
questions deemed to be "meaningless" actually have a great deal of meaning because
they are used to place us in context of the universe......"why" questions are just
another means of creating context for human beings......."why do we exist"
that is just another question that creates context for us..... it is important to
know our context in the universe ...... thus there are no such things as "meaningless"
questions.... every question asked creates context for us and creates a spot
in the universe for us....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:01 pm

so this idea of method is just a way to create context for us in the universe...
we can by a method, better understand what our context in the universe is..
we can be "more" assured of our place, it doesn't definitely answer the question
of where our place in the universe is but it is surer method of finding our place
in the universe.... the search for method is simply a means to find a more secure
place of asking where we fit into the universe.... we are slightly less likely to go
wrong with a method then if we have no method........ a method is no guarantee
of being able to find our place in the universe but is a slightly better means of
finding our place in the universe....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:21 pm

imagine a room with 20 people standing in it....
you have no sense of context with just that information...
ok, I name those 20 people, Robin, Joe, Vaile, Gayla,
Caroline, Tim, Calle, Joey, Marline, and so on and so forth....
you still have no context, you can't picture why those 20 people
are in a room... are they related, not related, are they just random
people or do they have some connection of some sort... until you have
more information you can't actually make sense of those 20 people..
what is their context to each other if any context to each other.....
how do we make sense of those 20 people being in the same room together....
how do we understand their place in the universe given this information?

I say, they are family and then you can begin to identify why they
are in the same room together. You can begin to create context
and understanding of their roles and relationships together..
you can create purpose and a why if you have enough information
about those 20 people...asking questions is one method of discovering
what is these 20 people relationship to each other..... finding out
that Caroline is the mother... that information can suddenly
create even greater context, an understanding of their place
in the universe... you now have an understanding of their
context... perhaps a birthday party, a farewell, a funeral,
a party of some nature....and now you have a pretty good
understanding of their place and their context of those 20 people...
just knowing that there are 20 people standing in a room creates
no understanding, no context, no point or purpose of those 20 people...
but as you get information about those 20 people, you get the
context and point and meaning of those 20 people.....you
create a meaningful point in the universe for those people...
you know their place in the universe and thus you also
know your context to those 20 people, perhaps you are related,
perhaps not...it still allows you to know your relationship to those
20 people....you know your place in the universe in regards to those
20 people....

thus it goes for science and philosophy and religion... it allows
you to know your context and place in the universe... each
discipline allows you context and understanding of where
you stand and where you stand in regard to the question at hand...
it create identity and context to ask questions....
and thus is not meaningless to ask such questions...


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:34 pm

[quote="Peter Kropotkin"]imagine a room with 20 people standing in it....
you have no sense of context with just that information...
ok, I name those 20 people, Robin, Joe, Vaile, Gayla,
Caroline, Tim, Calle, Joey, Marline, and so on and so forth....
you still have no context, you can't picture why those 20 people
are in a room... are they related, not related, are they just random
people or do they have some connection of some sort... until you have
more information you can't actually make sense of those 20 people..
what is their context to each other if any context to each other.....
how do we make sense of those 20 people being in the same room together....
how do we understand their place in the universe given this information?

I say, they are family and then you can begin to identify why they
are in the same room together. You can begin to create context
and understanding of their roles and relationships together..
you can create purpose and a why if you have enough information
about those 20 people...asking questions is one method of discovering
what is these 20 people relationship to each other..... finding out
that Caroline is the mother... that information can suddenly
create even greater context, an understanding of their place
in the universe... you now have an understanding of their
context... perhaps a birthday party, a farewell, a funeral,
a party of some nature....and now you have a pretty good
understanding of their place and their context of those 20 people...
just knowing that there are 20 people standing in a room creates
no understanding, no context, no point or purpose of those 20 people...
but as you get information about those 20 people, you get the
context and point and meaning of those 20 people.....you
create a meaningful point in the universe for those people...
you know their place in the universe and thus you also
know your context to those 20 people, perhaps you are related,
perhaps not...it still allows you to know your relationship to those
20 people....you know your place in the universe in regards to those
20 people....

thus it goes for science and philosophy and religion... it allows
you to know your context and place in the universe... each
discipline allows you context and understanding of where
you stand and where you stand in regard to the question at hand...
it create identity and context to ask questions....
and thus is not meaningless to ask such questions...


K: as we have created a scenario where we have 20 people
standing in a room.... and thus we have a fact of some sort,
and how would you go about trying to understand the who, what,
when, where, how and why of that situation? you can randomly
ask question or you can by means of a method, go about
engaging in this question about the 20 people in the room....
thus the value of method.... it is just a means of getting to the
bottom of this question of those 20 people in the room....
a method is just a logical method of trying to understand
the relationship of those 20 people in the room....
it is a tool to better figure out what those 20 people are
doing in the room....and as a tool, it is meant to
find out the answer in a comprehensive and complete
way, so you don't make mistakes in your identification of
those 20 people.... method is just a way of being
sure of your answer as to who are those 20 people....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
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Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:29 pm

after several days of work/hell, I finally have a day off....

I have been thinking about this for several days.....

in regards to philosophy and Alien life.... what if they don't eat
the same way we do.... they have found or developed a way to eat that
doesn't involved eating animals the way we do..... let us say, that they get
their nutrition from pills or the air around them feeds them, so they don't eat
the same way.... let us compare this to every human being on earth....
we all eat with our mouths and we eat grown things, be it veggies or be
it animals... if these Aliens came to earth, they wouldn't understand so much
about our very existence just because we eat the way we do......

the idea about "survival of the fittest" is basically about food...
the competition for food and the "fittest" is the one who gets the food....
in no other sense does "survival of the fittest" works
so we are in competition about food....

ok, so what would this alien civilization think about us?
we have competition because we are in competition for food
but these Aliens aren't in competition for food.....
they have used other means like cooperation to survive...
competition would be beyond their understanding because
they wouldn't even under the concept of competition the way we
do.....

think of the saying, its a dog eat dog world, this makes perfect sense
to us because of the survival of the fittest idea that we have had since
the beginning of time..... you eat, you survive, but these Aliens might
not have this......

their very existence is predicated on a very different idea then what we have....

now if we think about this, perhaps the reason human beings haven't
advance as far as they should have is because of this idea of competition,
of survival of the fittest idea... we need to make the next step in evolution which
is cooperation of the fittest.... we survive because we cooperated instead of competing
against each other for food... because at this point in our stage of evolution, we don't
have to compete for food.... the idea of the survival of the fittest no longer applies
to where we are at in our current stage of civilization.....the need to compete for our food....
we are at a different stage and we need to begin to adapt to that new stage...
the idea is no longer the survival of the fittest, but how do we advance the civilization best...
cooperation between people, cultures, states... that is the new paradigm.... not survival
of the fittest, but cooperation between us.....

thinking like aliens have lead me to this... what would thinking like an alien lead you to?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:01 pm

I was thinking about Plato the other day and I recall that above
the doors of his academy is this saying: let no one ignorant of geometry enter these doors...

it got me to thinking...why Geometry? is this really the proper way to enter
philosophy? a mathematical skill? I would argue that instead of
a mathematical skill, one should actually be versed in other things..
among them is poetry and fiction and living life.....

philosophy is about life and life is not about a mathematical skill...
but life is about living....so I ask again, why Geometry? it is suppose to
aid in the development of being able to reason.. but is life really about
cold logic and reasoning? so much about life is as far away from reasoning
as one could get and such schools as existentialism and writers such as Nietzsche
and Kierkegaard and Sartre approach philosophy, not from a cold logic and reasoning
standpoint of thinking about life, not from a mathematical standpoint which is
Plato's idea but they approached philosophy from a understanding that life is
not logical and about reasoning, but life is about the act of living, a life is about
faith and love and hope as Kierkegaard noted..... and faith and love and hope is not
logical and not about reasoning and not mathematical....

our day to day existence is not mathematical or logical... it is about
surviving this day any way we can and logic and math isn't going to help
us survive this day, but hope and love and faith are far better tools for
surviving our days then math and logic and reasoning.....

and that is what this is really all about, the tools one needs to survive
the day and at the end of the day, whatever tools are needed to make it to
another day are good tools.....

logic and math and reasoning are like hope and faith and love... in the end,
they are just tools we use to make it to another day....
today, to survive I might need logic and tomorrow I might need love
and the next day, I might need math and reasoning and the next day,
faith and hope.... the events dictate what tools I need to survive the day...

life is about situational tools.. what tool or tools, do I need today to get through the day...

so what is the answer here?...... depends on the question or questions you ask.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:14 pm

in my readings, I came across the "fact" that every single major western
philosopher from Descartes to Leibniz accepted the idea of god and
used god to justify or support their conclusions.......

After Descartes reduced certainty to his mind, to his thinking, he
then went to proof that god existed and that god was the reason we
have knowledge of matter..... every single philosopher from Descartes
to Leibniz used god in some manner or fashion like this to support
the conclusions drawn and yet, not one of these philosophers
doubted the assumption that god existed... you have Descartes, Spinoza,
Leibniz, Locke and Berkeley... all of whom, used the idea of god in some
fashion to buttressed their conclusions... to prove their conclusions without
ever questioning the basic assumption of god.. and this is their failure...
they didn't question their most basic assumption which was the existence
of god..... so what basic assumptions don't you question?

and the answer to that question is, you don't know because you have
never actually questioned your basic assumptions.....

you don't know what you don't know because you have never
asked yourself what you don't know....

what is your blindness? what is your automatic assumptions?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:51 pm

I want to find the answers, but answers to what?

some like Descartes believe that philosophy is about finding
certainty and if I follow Descartes in searching for certainty, I miss
the other stuff that is just as important as the search for certainty like
searching for meaning and if I am searching for certainty and searching
for meaning, I miss other stuff that is just as important which is how am I
to live my life, ethics,

in other words, if I search for the parts, I miss the whole and if
I search for the whole, I miss the parts....I can never
satisfactorily approach either the parts of philosophy or
approach the whole of philosophy.....

by necessity, I must narrow my search in such a way, that I
get the answers I am looking for but, and this is a big but,
I will never be able to understand or comprehend either the whole
or the parts..... I will understand small slices of philosophy but
I will never reach either a big understanding or a number of small understandings
of philosophy...

so, how do I solve this problem?

I don't because I can't....

I must on some level accept or know or understand that
I will never find all the answers I am looking for.....

as it were, I must leave some truths on the table and walk away...

I cannot ever learn all the truths I want to learn.....

and that is a shame.... the best I can ever do is connects some small dots
on a very large puzzle and hope someone later uses that connection to
connect even more dots and someone after that builds upon our work
and connects even more dots......and in time, more and more of the puzzle we
call life will become clearer and clearer... larger and larger aspects of the puzzle
will become understandable and someday, far into the future, it will become clear
to someone who will finally connects all the dots and this puzzle of life will become
understandable....

what is your contribution to the solution of the puzzle of life?


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:03 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:I want to find the answers, but answers to what?

some like Descartes believe that philosophy is about finding
certainty and if I follow Descartes in searching for certainty, I miss
the other stuff that is just as important as the search for certainty like
searching for meaning and if I am searching for certainty and searching
for meaning, I miss other stuff that is just as important which is how am I
to live my life, ethics,

in other words, if I search for the parts, I miss the whole and if
I search for the whole, I miss the parts....I can never
satisfactorily approach either the parts of philosophy or
approach the whole of philosophy.....

by necessity, I must narrow my search in such a way, that I
get the answers I am looking for but, and this is a big but,
I will never be able to understand or comprehend either the whole
or the parts..... I will understand small slices of philosophy but
I will never reach either a big understanding or a number of small understandings
of philosophy...

so, how do I solve this problem?

I don't because I can't....

I must on some level accept or know or understand that
I will never find all the answers I am looking for.....

as it were, I must leave some truths on the table and walk away...

I cannot ever learn all the truths I want to learn.....

and that is a shame.... the best I can ever do is connects some small dots
on a very large puzzle and hope someone later uses that connection to
connect even more dots and someone after that builds upon our work
and connects even more dots......and in time, more and more of the puzzle we
call life will become clearer and clearer... larger and larger aspects of the puzzle
will become understandable and someday, far into the future, it will become clear
to someone who will finally connects all the dots and this puzzle of life will become
understandable....

what is your contribution to the solution of the puzzle of life?


Kropotkin


K: so in the above, I note that I can't ever learn the answers....

but if I put it another way, it might make more sense.....

I can learn some "truths" but I can never learn the "TRUTH"....
because the idea that one person can learn the "TRUTH" is false...

we each have our own small, private "truths" that is applicable to
ourselves, but to no one else...... so what small "truth" of yours is
worth sharing with the world?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:22 pm

The day has arrived I have dreaded.... with my arrival at "modern" philosophy and
Descartes, I must now tackle that most problematic of issues... Science.....

What is Science? What is its relationship with philosophy?
how is Science different and how is science similar to philosophy?
what is an scientific issue and what is an philosophical issue?

There are many who believe that science has driven philosophy for the
last 500 years and so without any knowledge of science, the study of philosophy
becomes impossible....

I am not as concerned with such specific issues as evolution or how does gravity work,
as much as how does science itself interact and change philosophy and how much does
philosophy itself interact and change science.....

at one time, what we call science was called natural philosophy and was considered
a part of philosophy.... science wasn't a separate field of study as it is today,
to study science was to study philosophy and to study philosophy was to study
science....they were one and the same.....

the question of science was/is a study in method.. the scientific method....
what is that and how do we use the scientific method to discover the world around
us... how does the scientific method create knowledge of our world......

many, many philosophers have tried to make philosophy into science....
Spinoza and Hegel and Marx for example have tried to turn philosophy
into a science....their failure is quite evident but is their failure because
you can't turn philosophy into science or is their failure because of the
method/technique used by them caused their failure? if they had a better
method, would they have succeeded in turning philosophy into science?

I don't know that...

Science can tell us how breathing works or how the solar system
works, but can philosophy give us the why? science cannot give
us any why's...it can only tell us how something works for example,
the solar system stays in place because of gravity and science lays
out some scientific "laws" that tell us how the solar system stays in place.....

but science cannot tell us "WHY".... why does the solar system stay in place....
does that fact tell us anything about the meaning or purpose of the universe?

Religion would say that "god" put the solar system in place and that is in part,
part of our existence..... science says, ahhhh no, god didn't put the solar system in
place.... philosophy exists somewhere between science and religion....
religion can give us a why the solar system exists and science cannot tell
us why, but philosophy can/maybe tell us why... philosophy can give us a
why.......

I have studied evolution and I have studied physics but that doesn't mean I have
studied science.....so how does the small study of individual branches of science
give us information about the entire tree of science...... and how does that relate
to philosophy and the why? the why of existence is really philosophy's reason for
existence.... we want to know the "why" we have existence and what is existence for, without
recourse to religion or god......the problem is really that religion and science and philosophy,
all have many, many different moving parts and keeping those separate parts in mind
is quite difficult....finding relationships between all those moving parts can drive
a person crazy.....but it is not impossible, just very difficult.....

is there a method I can use to finding those relationships between science and religion
and philosophy? a method like one used for science? but many believe that
science doesn't actually have a method, like Popper and Feyerabend, for
example..... if science doesn't actually have a method, then trying to create
a method for philosophy sounds impossible.....science is concerned with
measurements... how big, how fast, how small, how heavy, how slow, how, how, how....
there are no measurements for philosophy... you cannot measure why......
just as you cannot measure god....so how do we create method when you don't
have measurements?

all very difficult questions... but that is the point... there is no point on
attacking very easy questions... it is only in attacking big, indeed impossible
questions that has value.....and we approach one aspect in this question of
science and philosophy and religion in the question of "value vs facts".....

science deals with facts and philosophy and religion deals with values.....

that is just one question we face during this pursuit.....

so what aspect of these questions draws your interest and why?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
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Posts: 5750
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby encode_decode » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:15 pm

In many ways I believe philosophy should have remained "the love of wisdom" - values can certainly be developed in philosophy and most people now believe that all philosophy is there for is to teach or help us to know how to act.

Religion is about worship - worship of what seems to be philosophy's biggest question regarding religion. Science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a deity. It seems philosophy has a much better chance of proving the existence of things we can not see . . .

Science to me a just a tool - much like a hammer - or a shovel. Science has no real idea on how we should live or what values are.

Spirituality which can easily be separated from Religion concerns itself with the human spirit or soul as opposed to the material or physical things in life.

The aspect that draws me to your latest post as opposed to the questions is the comment about science driving philosophy - I think this is possible in mainstream academia which in many respects should not even hold the title academia. As far as I am concerned however I plan to break away from the bounded thought modern life has instilled in me and create something new - something that is unified based on things as close to reality and truth as possible with the exception of art whose domain is creativity that is involved with imagination.

So at this moment in time the following represent the list of things that I value:

    1. Spirituality - not Religion.
    2. Philosophy - not just the academia kind either. Ethics being the most important to me.
    3. Art - I especially like story telling.
    4. Science - real science not watered down statistical garbage.

Regarding science - there should not be one method but rather an arsenal of good methods and I think in many ways there are. We will definitely have a few new methods on offer in the future.

If I were to create a new knowledge as mentioned above I would be tempted to give the branches of knowledge different names to distinguish them from some of the modern day labels we use - but it is what it is - it seems we can only but pick and choose from the limited methods, labels and choices available.

so how do we create method when you don't have measurements?

Occam's razor - look at the empirical - see if something is just a trick or real. Oh wait that is how we do it. Seriously though that is where the more than ten types of logic come in useful.

But in saying what I have said I actually find your post interesting - I just do not think that science should be driving anything but itself and institutionalized religion seems to be losing its value in modern life. I would hate to see us lose philosophy and replace it with some "automatonic" existence. Rules as they say are made to be broken - this statement is useful when breaking a false rule to replace it with a true rule. I do get the feeling however that life only has substance when we include the many forms of art alongside the logical knowledge that we aquire.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:58 pm

as I have been very busy of late.. I write when I can....

the "Truth" can only lie in two places... inside of us or outside of us....
when someone says, the truth lies with god, that is outside of us....

when I was searching for god for 40 years, I was searching outside of me....
now many believe that the truth is found inside of us....

The Buddha for example.......

so we have either the truth lying inside or lying outside of us....

but if I am right and everything is one and connected, then the truth can
exist in us and outside of us.... a search outside of us should at some point lead
us back to ourselves and a search within ourselves will lead us back to the outside....

perhaps that is why the most appropriate symbol of life is the Ying/yang...

I would post this symbol but my incompetence in technical matters prevents me....

now one might argue I have gone "mystical", but I haven't.... just because I
insist that life is best understood as experience and not in a metaphysical sense,
that doesn't preclude stretching experience as far as it will go.....

take an action... for example, throwing a rock.... I throw the rock....
then, I mentally put that experience into some sort of context....
I could by the way, do it the other way around, mentally put that experience
into context and then throw the rock....I am throwing the rock to show my arm strength,
or to chase off bears or to impress a girl, many reasons exist for me to throw that rock...

the question becomes, how are we to understand that event?....

there are many such events in life... some past, some present and some future.....
history is a study of events in the past, we hear about an event, say, the battle
of Waterloo... we then try to make some sense of that event, mentally.....
we categorize those events, put them into some context... we mentally try to
to understand that "truth"... that "truth" of Waterloo which is an physical event
and we try to make sense of it mentally.... the truth lies both inside of us and outside
of us........

a search for a truth either inside of us or outside of us, will lead us to the other...
we are mental and physical and our truths lie in both the mental and physical.....

now is this like the famous mind/body problem? how does the mind influence the body
and how does the body influence the mind? No, this is something different......
this is an understanding that the "truth" whatever that may be, lies both inside
of us and outside of us, as they are the same thing....

but one might say, we are two distinct and separate things, inside and out,
mind and body.... over the course of this thread, many times we have come
across two distinct and separate things and we have come to understand that
two distinct and separate things when understood, become two sides of the same
coin and then they become the same thing.... good and evil for example......

to slightly change directions, we have a viewpoint and that viewpoint is
society driven, culturally driven.... X, Y and Z are right and A, B, and C are
wrong, this is culturally and society driven.... Truth, justice and the American way,
I have heard this all my life and it is culturally driven... we hear a truth and
as enough people belief in this truth, we accept it as our own.... American is
the greatest country on earth...... this "truth" is society and culturally driven....
this "truth" lies outside of us.... but even a cursory look at it shows us that
America is not the greatest country on earth.... so how do we understand this...
we have a culturally driven truth that America is the greatest country on earth
and we have a understanding that America is clearly not the greatest country on earth?
how do we reconcile this anomaly? we have two truths, clearly one is wrong,
but how do we understand this as one truth is society and culturally driven and
we certainly don't want to be wrong in regards to our culture and out society.....

how do we find the answer to this quandary?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
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Posts: 5750
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:35 pm

now to answer the question, is America the greatest country on earth?

you might resort to such answer such as we are the most powerful country
on earth, but you have to explain what is meant by powerful....

you might say, we are the greatest economic power on earth and we can
resort to facts to prove such a thing... but facts are changeable....
to say for example, there are 8 million people in NY is to put a fix number
on a number that is changing by the day... yes, there might be 8 million people
in NY today, but yesterday with births, deaths and people moving in and out,
there were 8,100,000 people in NY and tomorrow there might be more or less,
depending on how many people die, how many are born and how many move in
and move out..... that number of 8 million as a fact is really more of a, around
this number of people live in NY and not as a definite number of people who live
in NY......so we have the US having a economic number of say, 1 trillion dollars
of economic activity, but the actual number can change by billions in a short period
of time.......so we are using facts to decide that America is the greatest country on
earth and facts are subject to change, but more importantly, one didn't
claim America is the greatest country on earth by values.... because we
cannot claim to be the greatest country on earth given we have values that
include allowing torture and waterboarding... you cannot make a value claim
that America is the greatest country on earth because you cannot show us
that is true and as facts are subject to change depending on how they are used...
you cannot prove your assertions that America is the greatest country on earth....

you have facts and you have values.... what other issues that can be
addressed by facts and what other issues that can be addressed by values?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:11 pm

you have facts and you have values, two distinct and separate idea's....

values like justice, hope, love, honor, faith...
facts, like one plus one is two and there are 8 million people in NY....

so, we have two distinct and separate idea's...
then if we understand it correctly, we have two sides of the same coin
and then...... we don't have two idea's but we have one...

facts and values are the same thing....

how did we achieve this miracle?

by taking an eagle eye view of facts and values......

facts say something about the world, values say something about us....

we cannot say, the world has love or justice but we can say, human beings
have love and justice....

but that means we have created a distinct and separate understanding of
the world.... we have human beings and we have the world.. the outside of us....

but we are in the world and really what separates us from the world?

we have a body that is easily absorbed by the world, in other words, our body
is of this world and comes and go from it quite easily.....I am born.. ashes to ashes,
dust to dust..... we are born and reborn a million, indeed a billion times,
our cells are used and reused over and over again......
so how are we different from the world?

as for values, values are a society driven, culturally driven idea....
we value what society values because society has driven it into us....

to philosophize is to challenge this.... Philosophers are
a danger to society because we challenge those values which have
been driven into us from birth.. as values are really just idea's and idea's
have no form, no body to speak, we cannot say that values even exist....

so to suggest that values don't exist is to say, just the body exists and that
body is temporary and changeable.... we are and everything around us is flux....

and that is the commonality that unites facts and values... both are temporary
and changeable..... at their heart, neither values or facts have any permanent
existence....they disappear just like our bodies..... that is the connection
between facts and values...... that makes them the same...........

what does this leave us with?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:04 pm

and we have reached exactly the same point Plato did when he posited that
idea of eternal forms...he thought that there was a temporary world, the world
we live in and an eternal world....... that eternal world is where the eternal forms
like the circle existed and what we have is inexact and low grade copies of those
eternal forms....once again we reached this human need to create permanence in
the universe....Artificial permanence... nothing that can be shown to exist...
implied in Plato argument is this eternal world is god and god creates the
permanence in the universe with his eternal forms...once again philosophy looks
to god to hold the world fast and stable... Descartes does the same thing as
does Spinoza and Liebniz and Locke and Berkeley..... each of them at some point
bring in god to make good the world's promise....yet, yet we cannot do so....
because nothing as yet suggest that god actually does exist....
I would like to use a courtroom experience to show that god doesn't
exist...

what evidence would you take to a courtroom to convince a judge and jury
that god does exists?

there is no evidence that would be admissible in a courtroom to show us
that god does exist......you can't point to anything and say, that is god...
clear and certain as day... nothing like that exists.... and so it goes for
Plato's eternal forms.. there is nothing there that would pass a courtroom
test....

so we have reached the point where Plato needed god
to make his theories work.... we cannot resort to such arbitrary means to
get our theories to hold solid and in place..... everything is temporary and
changeable and melts into nothing at some point....

our philosophy must reflect this... we have nothing in the universe that
exist permanently and eternally.....


even space and time once began, the big bang and so that implies that
space and time are of duration and thus will at one point not exist....
if something can come into existence, it can go out of existence....

our philosophy must reflect this reality that we and everything is impermanent
and temporary..... idea's, matter, reality, space and time, the universe, all of it is temporary
and impermanent.....the search for a permanent reality is nonsense, call yourself
Don Quixote if you insist on searching for a permanent reality..... such is a fool's quest....

our idea's and philosophy must reflect this temporary, impermanent reality we exist in....

so what does this mean for us?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:43 pm

We have a multitude of questions in philosophy.....
one such question is : what is the meaning of life?
and at one time or another, everyone asks themselves that question....
the problem with this question, as often happens with philosophy questions,
is that if you look at the question, I mean really look at the question, the
question itself has issues.....

The meaning of life: we have two key words, meaning and life....
but if we look at these two concepts, we see they are two different
concepts, life is facts and meaning is value......so in essence we are asking,
what is the value of a factual existence.....

life has many different meanings, there is that word again,
one way to define life is:

life needs to maintain Homeostasis, it is composed of cells, it undergoes metabolism,
it can grow, it adapts to its environment, respond to stimuli and it reproduces.....

to be called life, it must follow these 7 things.... or at least that is the
current conception of life... it will change because that is what facts do,
they change......and there are more then one theory as to what is this thing
called life....in other words, we have problems with understanding what exactly
is life....... one of our two words, we are not sure what it is..... how can we
find an answer to, what is the meaning of life, when we aren't really sure what life
is....life is a process, not a substance......

as to our second word, meaning, there are even more theories as to what is
"meaning"..... Wiki lists at least 5 different theories about meaning.....
meaning is about values. look up the work "meaning" and you get something along
the lines of this....


Meaning as nouns:
1. what is intended to be, or actually is
2. the end, purpose, or significance of something,
what is the meaning of life..
3. Linguistics, the nonlinguistic cultural, reference, or denotation of a
linguistic form.... expression by linguistic content....
(I have no idea what this means)

meaning as an adjective:
4. intended (causally used in combination)
she is a well meaning person
5. Full of significance expressive...
a meaning look.....

in other words, even what the word, meaning, means is under dispute
and in questioned.....

so we have two words in a 4 word sentence that we don't even really
understand... how can we find the meaning of life when we don't even know
what those words mean?

we have interesting examples of the meaning of life even given we don't
really understand those words...

for example, this is an example of one version of the meaning of life....
the declaration of independence tells us that....

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed with certain unalienable rights, that among these,
are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness....

with life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, being the meaning of life.........
goals to be achieved..... and meaning is in part, is a question of goals to be
achieved.... and where does all his leave us?

we have at this point a question that unanswerable because we cannot
agree on the term of "meaning" and the term, "life".....

so does answering these questions become a linguistic questions?
some think so and answer it in those terms but that path is sterile
and cannot meet our flesh and blood demands for knowledge and truth....
a word means this.... does that really answer our question.....
love is defined as...... but that certainly doesn't tell us what love is
as love is greater then any definition we impose on it......

so we are back in the beginning, wonder what is the meaning of life?

and until we understand what the word meaning and the word life, means,
we cannot begin to answer that question and then all we have are definitions
and definitions are not answers......

so what am I left with? an understanding that we cannot answer our
questions about philosophy unless we clarify the questions and then
that is only part way to finding answers.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
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Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:58 pm

and what of beauty? do we understand beauty?
think of a beautiful woman or man, as you wish...

We automatically think of women as being more beautiful then men.....

take two examples, say, Nicole Kidman and Meryl Streep....
are they equally beautiful? Most would say no, but why?

society would say Nicole Kidman was more beautiful then Meryl Streep,
but there are those individuals that think Meryl Streep is more beautiful then
Nicole Kidman.... So who is right? is there some sort of census building
in society that is deciding what is beauty and beautiful? I think the problem lies
in how we determine what beauty is... what is beauty? how would you define it?
of course the usual suspects are here, pleasing to the eye and another favorite,
symmetry and what other criteria has been used?

now one thing I have noticed about beauty is this, it is nonthreatening, we don't feel
threatened by beauty, but we do feel threaten and repelled by ugliness.....

(now my last statement about beauty being nonthreatening is not actually true,
I have seen women be threaten by another women's beauty, but that is about
self esteem issues more then any thing else)

so what is the definition of beauty? and once again we run into trouble,
because there is no actual definition of beauty or the beautiful that would
allow us to clearly understand beauty..... but once again, it is not all about
the definition of something that makes it clear but taking the next step
after definition that allows us to properly understand something.....
a definition is just one step closer to understanding something, it is not
THE step to understanding.......

I would suggest we have a mixed and muddled idea of beauty that prevents
us from understanding what beauty is......... so twice we have had misunderstanding
because of our lack of understanding of what our terms are, the meaning of life is
another misunderstanding of what meaning and life is and the search for beauty is
a misunderstanding of what beauty is.......
perhaps this is why philosophy has been stagnant all these years, confusion over
what we are actually questioning... we are asking the wrong questions or we
are failing to understand what our questions mean, truly mean.........

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Dan~ » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:07 pm

It seems to me that beauty and attraction are brain structures.
A structure can be made any which way.
The result is as you can see.
I like http://www.accuradio.com , internet radio.
https://dannerz.itch.io/ -- a new and minimal webside now hosting two of my free game projects.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:29 pm

the problem with this is we can "blame" the brain structure for almost
anything then.... I didn't commit this crime because my brain structure
caused me to commit this crime.... now I recognize that this brain structure
isn't really a brain structure but the way the mind categorizes things, but
I would suggest that we are heavily influenced in how the mind categorizes
things by society and the way we are raised..... the influence of society in how
we think about things cannot be underestimated..... I would argue that our idea of
beauty is really a cultural and society construct and far less a matter of our own
individual brain structure creating categories for us to place individual people
as beautiful...... we learn what beauty is from society and not from any
individual brain structure that creates categories for us............

so any answer we might get from the question of the meaning of life might
actually come from a cultural and society construct that has been created for us....
we think that the meaning of life comes from our praise and giving glory to god,
but that doesn't come from any individual categories we might have inside of us,
but is given to from society and cultural influences.......

so what other idea's you might have are influenced by culture and society influences?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:59 pm

so in my study of philosophy and my offshoot study of science, I
have encountered an interesting thing.....
so we have human beings and they want to know about the world around them....
so to understand the world, we humans look at the phenomenon around us....
for example, we see the sun rising every day... humans have seen this sun rising
every single day of our existence as humans.....we have tried to explain this in
many different ways, the Greeks had the god Apollo ride his flaming chariot
across the sky every day for example and many other different examples exist
of the explanation of the sun rising every single day....

this one example of the sun rising every single day leads us to wonder,
about how or why does the sun rise every single day, in the east, no less.....

so we have spent a whole lot of years thinking about this going back to the
beginning of time.....

how we were able to find a solution to this problem? We connected the earth
to a bigger picture.... we put the earth into context... we used the
information of the sun rising every single day, which by itself can tell us something
but not enough to create a picture of earth in context of the solar system......

but the interesting thing is we interpret this even in a context and within HUMAN
values and human understanding.... in other words, we see the universe
in terms of our senses and our language and our math.... we see the universe
in terms of our human nature.... we interpret the universe with human eyes
and human hearing and human math and human language.... the universe makes
sense because we have filter it through our human understanding......

today we have a mathematical theory of the universe... but that understanding
is done through and with human thought and understanding... it makes sense because
we have found the laws of nature through human thinking and human math.....
in other words, our brain structure which is really a means we use to categorize
our world.... is the universe as we think it is or, or does the universe look that way
because of the way we humans have categorized it.....we have made the universe
understandable to us, but does that really represent the way the universe actually
works? or has creating the context of our understanding of the universe been
compromised because we have done that context in terms of human thinking
and human math and language..........

have we created a clear understanding of the universe or have created
a understanding of the universe that makes sense to us because it was done
by us with language and math done by us........is the picture of the universe
a human construct? humans said, let there be light and there was light,
light being an idea of humans, by humans and for humans........

is the universe really something different then we think?
we have created this idea of the universe using human values and human math
and human language, does that mean we really understand the universe or do we
understand our picture of the universe because we drew that picture and the reality
of the universe is something completely different?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:07 pm

to follow through this thought, would the universe look the same
to Aliens from space? or do they interpret the universe through the lens
of their existence and come up with a totally different picture of the
universe because their senses and language and math is different then ours?

is the picture of the universe dependent upon the nature and quality
of the senses and language and math of the species looking at the universe?

or is the picture of the universe the one we actually have described through
our senses and math and language?

I can envision an alien species having a different math, a different reality
because they exist in a different environment and have different senses.....

math is a human construct and aliens having a different reality would
have a different math......so how much does that influence their vision
of reality?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"

The RNC has announced that's its changing the Republican emblem from
an elephant to an condom because it more clearly reflects the party's political
stance: a condom stands for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation,
protects a bunch of pricks, and gives one a sense of security while screwing others.

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

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