Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Arminius » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:59 pm

Did you know that Huntington was Fukuyama's teacher at Havard?
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Arminius » Sat May 02, 2015 10:00 pm

Did the history essentially end with Hegel, especially with his 1807 published work "Phänomenologie des Geistes"?
Dissatisfied people don't want the end of history, because they always invent new "victims" like the workers as the proletariat, the women, the homosexuals (gays, lesbians, "transsexuals"), the underclass, the blacks, the non-whites, the immigrants, the maniacs, the non-smokers, the children, the body, the animals, the plants, the environment, the planet Earth, and so on. But is this historically really significant / meaningful?
Last edited by Arminius on Mon May 04, 2015 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby James S Saint » Sun May 03, 2015 3:12 pm

Arminius wrote:Did the history essentially end with Hegel, especially with his 1807 published work "Phänomenologie des Geistes"?
Dissatisfied people don't want the end of history, because they invent, look for, and find new "victims" like the workers as the proletariat, the women, the homosexuals (gays, lesbians, "transsexuals"), the underclass, the blacks, the non-whites, the immigrants, the maniacs, the non-smokers, the children, the body, the animals, the environment, the planet Earth, and so on. But is this historically really significant / meaningful?

There was still many very significant historical events after Hegel; the Internet, the formation of Israel, the collapse of the USSR, the overthrow of the USA, the space race age, artificial intelligence,...
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Orbie » Sun May 03, 2015 7:07 pm

But historical sequencing as a developing process has. It took a few hundred years, but with the end of an upward spiral of sequencing, the need to literate it structurally and designate it post structurally, points to an affective-meaningful effort to convert the previously subliminal nature of the process into a literal guide, lest we get lost. The signal has subsumed the sign, the media the message. History has been replaced by interpretation of the arrangement of the signs, of positioned and counter positioned spatio temporal arrangements, without beginning or end points. The final cause and effect as a spatio temporal arrangement of facts, has finally destroyed the progressive movement of a historical development, instead an unbound back and forth movement between the structure and it's interpretation, its internal logic and it's semantic manifestation, has replaced it.

There is a hidden cause to the collapse of history,many it is the increasing rate of change of the historical movements themselves, the instability of any particular interpretation as having an effect.
The 50 years of communism, is but a mere dot on a map of thousands of years of imperial domain, such as the case with the now fallen empires, which had time spans of a thousand years.

The 50 years of communism was the last death knoll of the Heglelians process, an unwarranted conversion
Which could be likened to say the short durations of various Europian conflicts, such as the Thirty Years War. the major wars of the twentieth century, for instance, were of significantly shorter duration, ten years at most. A nuclear war fought today internationally, would have a time lapse far shorter, maybe concluding in a matter of months or even weeks, if not days. History is a signification of temporal events, and as uncertainty rises,to the political level , it reverberates the shortness of duration, from the effects, to the affects accompanying the interpretations.

The end of history is not the actual nihilization of time, but the interpretation of the passing of it. De ontology is an RX, for changing the view, that this process can be likened to a run away train, unstoppable, with destination The Singularity. With historical inevitability seen as a retrogression rather then a progression, this interpretation can be avoided. The Singularity in this way,mill present a different picture, likened to a black hole effect, where, there can never really be a journey through the Schwartzchild horizon. It is only an effect. Temporal duration stretches as the limits are approached. At the very limit, there is an infinite expansion, science fools us to believe it's possible, but the Creation 'knows' better than that.
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Arminius » Sun May 03, 2015 9:56 pm

When it comes to understand the "end of history" in the Hegelian sense, one has to know what Hegel exactly meant by "Staat" ("state"), especially by "Rechtsstaat" ("constitutional state", "state of law"), by "Geist", especially by "absoluter Geist" ("absolute spirit" [but unfortunately "Geist" is not perfectly translatable]), and, of course, by "Geschichte" ("history"), and by some or many more words and concepts.
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Orbie » Sun May 03, 2015 10:19 pm

Hegel's definition of the end of history is ambiguous as he defines it, according to the encyclopedia of philosophy, probably because he was not really sure of it.
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Arminius » Mon May 04, 2015 12:36 am

Orb wrote:Hegel's definition of the end of history is ambiguous as he defines it, according to the encyclopedia of philosophy, probably because he was not really sure of it.

Nobody, thus also no philosopher, can really be sure of the term "end of history", because the definitions of "history" are unfortunately too many and too different. Therefore it is worth to talk about it philosophically in order to find something like an universal definition, but I think that exactly that is not possible. We do not know for sure how "history" and "historicality" can be exactly defined. Can they be defined by e.g. existence philosophy? Should we at first try to define what "historical existence" is? I did it - for example in this thread with the following post:

Arminius wrote:According to Ernst Nolte there are especially the following „historical existentials“, which are translated by me ( [-o< or =D>):

• Religion (God/Gods, a.s.o);
• Rule (leadership, a.s.o.);
• Nobleness (nobility, a.s.o.);
• Classes;
• State;
• Great War;
• City and country as contrast;
• Education, especially in schools and universities;
• Science;
• Order of sexulality / demographics, economics;
• Historiography / awareness of history!

Ernst Nolte wrote (ibid, p. 10):

„Es wird also für möglich gehalten, daß bestimmte grundlegende Kennzeichen - oder Kategorien oder »Existenzialien« - der historischen Existenz tatsächlich nur für das sechstausendjährige »Zwischenspiel« der »eigentlichen Geschichte« bestimmend waren und heute als solche verschwinden oder bereits verschwunden sind, während andere weiterhin in Geltung bleiben, obwohl auch sie einer tiefgreifenden Wandlung unterliegen. Die Analyse solcher Existenzialien im Rahmen eines »Schemas der historischen Existenz« ist das Hauptziel dieses Buches.“
My translation:
„Thus, it is thought to be possible that certain fundamental characteristic - or categories or »existentials« - of the historical existence have been decisively only for the six thousand years lasting »interlude« of the »actual history« and now are disappearing as such or have already disappeared, while others continued to remain in validity, although they are also subjected to a profound transformation. The analysis of such existentials within the framework of a »scheme of historical existence«is the main goal of this book.

Ernst Nolte wrote (ibid, p. 672):

„Befinden wir Menschen ... uns bereits in der »Nachgeschichte«, wie wir den Zustand in Ermangelung eines besseren Terminus nennen wollen, oder doch mindestens im Übergang dazu?“
My translation:
„Are we people ... already in the »post-history« as we like to call the state for lack of a better term, or at least in the transition to that?“

Ernst Nolte wrote (ibid, p. 682):

„Alle historischen Existenzialien ... haben ... grundlegende Änderungen erfahren, und einige, wie der Adel und der »große Krieg«, sind nicht mehr wahrzunehmen. Aber selbst diese haben sich eher verwandelt, als daß sie ganz verschwunden wären: Der große Krieg bleibt als dunkle Drohung bestehen, und der Adel überlebt in gewisser Weise als Pluralität der Eliten.“
My translation:
„All historical existentialia ... have ... been changed fundamentally, and some, like the nobleness and the »Great War«, are no longer perceivable. But even these have been transformed rather than that they were all gone: the great war remains as a dark threat, and the nobility survived in some ways as pluralism of elites.“

That are some sentences Nolte wrote in his bulky book, which was published in 1998: „Historische Existenz“ („Historical Existence“).
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Arminius » Mon May 04, 2015 1:21 am

James S Saint wrote:There was still many very significant historical events after Hegel; the Internet, the formation of Israel, the collapse of the USSR, the overthrow of the USA, the space race age, artificial intelligence,...

Some of them may be too important, so that we need to rate them among evolution but not history; some of them may be too unimportant, so that we need to rate them among events but not history; but some of them may be neither too important nor too unimportant, so that we need to rate them among history. :-k

Arminius wrote:Ernst Nolte wrote (ibid, p. 682):

„Alle historischen Existenzialien ... haben ... grundlegende Änderungen erfahren, und einige, wie der Adel und der »große Krieg«, sind nicht mehr wahrzunehmen. Aber selbst diese haben sich eher verwandelt, als daß sie ganz verschwunden wären: Der große Krieg bleibt als dunkle Drohung bestehen, und der Adel überlebt in gewisser Weise als Pluralität der Eliten.“
My translation:
„All historical existentialia ... have ... been changed fundamentally, and some, like the nobleness and the »Great War«, are no longer perceivable. But even these have been transformed rather than that they were all gone: the great war remains as a dark threat, and the nobility survived in some ways as pluralism of elites.“
=>

Probably we have to wait before we judge. Maybe there will be a great war because of e.g. Israel. A great war definitely means history.
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby James S Saint » Mon May 04, 2015 8:45 pm

I still think that I am not grasping what it is that you are calling "history" when you say that something that is "too important" is not history. How can anything be too important and yet not be history?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Arminius » Mon May 04, 2015 9:49 pm

James S Saint wrote:I still think that I am not grasping what it is that you are calling "history" when you say that something that is "too important" is not history. How can anything be too important and yet not be history?

Evolution is more natural than cultural, wheras history is more cultural than natural. It is a difference - often even a huge difference - whether living beings like the human beings develop naturally or culturally. It is a difference whether the brain of the humans has grown or the constitutional state is established by the Occidental humans. Evolution is more important than history when it comes to naturally survive. Evolution came before history - the revers is not possible. At first you, for example, have to change from an animal to an human before you can change from an natural human with natural and cultural evolution to a cultural human with natural and cultural evolution and then to a cultural human with history, thus with natural and cultural evolution, and - now: of course - cultural history.

On the way from an animal to an human:

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Humans without history (in the narrower sense):

Image

Humans with history (in the narrower sense):

Image

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You do not think that humans are created by God, do you?
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby James S Saint » Mon May 04, 2015 9:59 pm

Arminius wrote:You do not think that humans are created by God, do you?

Of course they are, but that is irrelevant.

So you are talking about the end of significant cultural or social changes as being "the end of history". And I still think that the advent of the internet (for example) is a significant change in culture and society and thus is an "historical" event (along with many others previously listed). And in the relatively near future, there is the reformation of the Americas and Europe. So I can't believe that social/cultural history has ended.

Some people, no doubt, believe that globulization of homosapian ends history because they think that such is the final, never changing state. It is not the final state. The glob will breakup to form a new, unpredictable rearrangement of (hopefully) humanity (else machinery, but probably cyborg-ishness).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Arminius » Tue May 05, 2015 12:39 am

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:You do not think that humans are created by God, do you?

Of course they are, but that is irrelevant.

So you are talking about the end of significant cultural or social changes as being "the end of history". And I still think that the advent of the internet (for example) is a significant change in culture and society and thus is an "historical" event (along with many others previously listed). And in the relatively near future, there is the reformation of the Americas and Europe. So I can't believe that social/cultural history has ended.

I also can't really believe that history in the narrower sense has ended.

According to the fact that I am merely asking whether hostory has ended or not I can say that in some cases is has and in other cases it has not ended. So the conclusiobn is that histoy has probably not ended.

James S Saint wrote:Some people, no doubt, believe that globulization of homosapian ends history because they think that such is the final, never changing state. It is not the final state. The glob will breakup to form a new, unpredictable rearrangement of (hopefully) humanity (else machinery, but probably cyborg-ishness).

Cyborgs are such a fundamental change that I would say that such a development is more evolutionarily than historically significant, and this does not mean that it is not historically significant.

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A wrong way?

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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Arminius » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:04 am

Increasingly states, companies and private households reach the point, from which on the credit no longer opens but blocks the future: Growing debt services saps ever larger parts of current income - until the line is exceeded, beyond which older debts only be postponed by a cascade of new debts in a permanently paralyzed tomorrow. This situation deserves to be called "post-historical": It completely fulfills Arnold Gehlen's classic definition of the posthistoire as a state of high "mobility above the stationary bases" - while one would like to replace the word "stationary" by the word "untenable"
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:02 am

The end of History will be AD, (After the DNA Machine.) After this age, a new era of happiness and prosperity will begin.
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Moreno » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:01 pm

Arminius wrote:Increasingly states, companies and private households reach the point, from which on the credit no longer opens but blocks the future: Growing debt services saps ever larger parts of current income - until the line is exceeded, beyond which older debts only be postponed by a cascade of new debts in a permanently paralyzed tomorrow. This situation deserves to be called "post-historical": It completely fulfills Arnold Gehlen's classic definition of the posthistoire as a state of high "mobility above the stationary bases" - while one would like to replace the word "stationary" by the word "untenable"
The ways to make money that produce nothing are increasing.
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Arminius » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:03 am

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:The end of History will be AD, (After the DNA Machine.) After this age, a new era of happiness and prosperity will begin.

Would you mind describing how your "DNA Machine" works?
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Arminius » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:04 am

Moreno wrote:
Arminius wrote:Increasingly states, companies and private households reach the point, from which on the credit no longer opens but blocks the future: Growing debt services saps ever larger parts of current income - until the line is exceeded, beyond which older debts only be postponed by a cascade of new debts in a permanently paralyzed tomorrow. This situation deserves to be called "post-historical": It completely fulfills Arnold Gehlen's classic definition of the posthistoire as a state of high "mobility above the stationary bases" - while one would like to replace the word "stationary" by the word "untenable"
The ways to make money that produce nothing are increasing.

Yes, and this has been becoming a dictatorship of inflationism, especially since the 15t of August 1971 when the US president Richard Nixon reversed the gold backing. This is just a bastard economy.
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Amorphos » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:30 pm

Yes, and this has been becoming a dictatorship of inflation-ism, especially since the 15t of August 1971 when the US president Richard Nixon reversed the gold backing. This is just a bastard economy
.

The bank of England sold quite a lot of its gold because it was no longer needed as a basis for money. I expect American banks done the same. Its like free money! They first make the value of things upon the worth of gold, then keep the worth and sell the gold lol. I noticed that the Chinese are big on buying gold, which is jolly good of them muhahaha. All the west needs now is to get their hands on the Chinese money markets so they can drain all the wealth back, the Chinese however can see that coming hence keep stopping it.
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Arminius » Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:23 pm

Amorphos wrote:
Yes, and this has been becoming a dictatorship of inflation-ism, especially since the 15t of August 1971 when the US president Richard Nixon reversed the gold backing. This is just a bastard economy
.

The bank of England sold quite a lot of its gold because it was no longer needed as a basis for money. I expect American banks done the same. Its like free money! They first make the value of things upon the worth of gold, then keep the worth and sell the gold lol. I noticed that the Chinese are big on buying gold, which is jolly good of them muhahaha. All the west needs now is to get their hands on the Chinese money markets so they can drain all the wealth back, the Chinese however can see that coming hence keep stopping it.

How will that end?
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Arminius » Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:52 am

That will end catastrophically.
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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:49 am

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:I still think that I am not grasping what it is that you are calling "history" when you say that something that is "too important" is not history. How can anything be too important and yet not be history?

Evolution is more natural than cultural, wheras history is more cultural than natural. It is a difference - often even a huge difference - whether living beings like the human beings develop naturally or culturally. It is a difference whether the brain of the humans has grown or the constitutional state is established by the Occidental humans. Evolution is more important than history when it comes to naturally survive. Evolution came before history - the revers is not possible. At first you, for example, have to change from an animal to an human before you can change from an natural human with natural and cultural evolution to a cultural human with natural and cultural evolution and then to a cultural human with history, thus with natural and cultural evolution, and - now: of course - cultural history.

On the way from an animal to an human:

Image

Humans without history (in the narrower sense):

Image

Humans with history (in the narrower sense):

Image

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You do not think that humans are created by God, do you?



The cultural world as an enclosed simulation or matrix separate from nature and evolution?
Civilization is a ship of fools headed to a one way destination of catastrophe and annihilation, its many captains populated by asshole-idiots that all agree it is unsinkable.

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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:55 am

The end of human history?

An extrapolation of entropy in terms of human civilization concerning its own demise perhaps.
Civilization is a ship of fools headed to a one way destination of catastrophe and annihilation, its many captains populated by asshole-idiots that all agree it is unsinkable.

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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:03 am

Arminius wrote:
phyllo wrote:
The end of history is a political and philosophical concept that supposes that a particular political, economic, or social system may develop that would constitute the end-point of humanity's sociocultural evolution and the final form of human government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_history

The end of humanity's evolution and change comes when everyone is dead.

There is a difference between the "end-point of humanity's sociocultural evolution" and the "end of humanity's evolution". The diffrence is namely the culture!

James S Saint wrote:It is often attempted, with moderate success, to erase all knowledge of prior history so as to establish a new age founded on new premises (usually rewriting history so as to hide the old). Does that count as an "end of history"?

Maybe as a pre-stage of (the idea of) the "end of history", but not really.

James S Saint wrote:So what does "End of History" really mean?

The "end of history" means the end of all great narratives, of all great stories, of all "historical existence" (Ernst Nolte), of all culture, of all great wars, and so on.

James S Saint wrote:I, a bit like Hegal, can tell you where it ends up and why, but not when or how it gets there... or even what kind of species remains. Who is to be in the real Heaven? It is looking very suspiciously like it isn't going to be human (as we were discussing on the other thread). Would that constitute an "End of History", the end of humanity?

Some people may say that the time after the end of history is "haeven on earth", some other people may say that the time after the end of history is "hell on earth". There is no real historical develoment, nothing to do that really counts, boredom, happiness, perhaps it is the (last) age with machines, before the machines will completely replace all human beings (you remember!) - this all depends upon the people's evaluation.



Ridiculous religious notions aside it sounds like to me existential decline and stagnation due to lost momentum concerning various collapse scenarios. There are indeed multiple scenarios in which modern civilization could indeed collapse.
Civilization is a ship of fools headed to a one way destination of catastrophe and annihilation, its many captains populated by asshole-idiots that all agree it is unsinkable.

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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:07 am

phyllo wrote:
There is a difference between the "end-point of humanity's sociocultural evolution" and the "end of humanity's evolution". The diffrence is namely the culture!
The culture will change as long as humans change. Humans change as long as they are alive.

You can see change happening very clearly as each new generation rejects the current culture and creates its own. You could say that when humans become immortal, there will be no more children who would be rejuvenating the culture. That might be the end of history.


Human nature doesn't change.
Civilization is a ship of fools headed to a one way destination of catastrophe and annihilation, its many captains populated by asshole-idiots that all agree it is unsinkable.

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Re: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY.

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:10 am

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Well, I can tell you that it is a "Heaven" scenario, not a "Hell".
And the reason is simply that a part of the activity going on involves inspiring the joy of attending to things that are of actual need. By that means, not only does the person (or whatever) maintain eternal existence, but also enjoys doing so; ie. "Heaven". The only problem in the past was understanding what really is of actual need. But that isn't an issue anymore.

So the Eternal Hell scenario is out.
The other option is the Abyss, wherein everything gets totally lost, as in perhaps that "Black-hole" scenario.

Are you not afraid of the „Last Men“ (Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche), or of scenarios which are similar to some written stories, for example by Herbert George Wells, Aldous Huxley, or George Orwell?



Transhumanism essentially means the end of social organization so there's that also and I definitely would classify that as the end of human history.
Civilization is a ship of fools headed to a one way destination of catastrophe and annihilation, its many captains populated by asshole-idiots that all agree it is unsinkable.

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Mictlantecuhtli
Nihilistic Mystic And Hermit
 
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