Will machines completely replace all human beings?

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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:18 pm

And then there is the internal nanobot stage;



Note the very serious yet ignored distinction between a mechanism that might allow you to live longer (strictly for multimillionaires) versus a mechanism that constantly surveils you and feeds you subliminal, suggestive information.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:14 pm

Only_Humean wrote:
Arminius wrote:Again: p is NOT false and q is NOT false. Because: All expensive things are replaced by cheaper things. And: We know that machines are cheaper than human beings, and we know that machines replace human beings.

Then please, show me a machine that completely replaces a human being and let me know how much it costs.

One example for those human beings are the killed unborns in the occidental area because they have been being the most humans who have been being completely replaced by machines. If you want to know when, how many, where, under which costs, and why humans are completely replaced by machines you ONLY have to look at the occidental demographic development (especially since the end of the 18th century). The correlation between demography on the one hand and culture (civilisation), economy, intelligence, and - last but not least - technique / technology on the other hand is so obvious that it can not be denied anymore. Look at the data, numbers, and facts of demography and you will find out that the relatively fast decline of the occident is caused by cultural (civilisational) effects which include the economical, scientifical, and - last but not least - technical / technological effects, to which the machines belong.

Table for the machines rates and the fertlity rates since 1770 in the occidental (indusrtial/mecahnical) area: *

Phase / stage | Average machine rate | Average economic status (living standard / wealth / welfare) | Average fertility rate |

1| 1770-1870 |_______ LOW ________|_____________________ LOW ___________________________|_______ HIGH _______|
2| 1870-1970 |______ MIDDLE ______|____________________ MIDDLE __________________________|______ MIDDLE ______|
3| 1970-____ |_______ HIGH _______|_____________________ HIGH ___________________________|_______ LOW ________|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^---------------
* The declared values are average and relative (compared to the average values from 1770 till today) values, so for eaxmple LOW does not mean generally low, but relatively low, and this relative value is also an average value of one phase. And as said: the values refer to the occidental area, its people, its machines (so: immigrants are not included).

Please notice that this values can clearly show that there is a correlation between machines and fertlity. If the machine rate is high, then the fertility rate is low.

In the first phase (stage) and in the first half of the second phase (stage) the machines cause an increasing population, but in the second half of the second phase (stage) and in the third phase (stage) the machines cause a shrinking population. Because of the fact that the "evolution" of machines is going to lead to more phases, new phases (amongst others because of the so called "progress" and the so called "revolutions") one can generally say that machines cause a shrinking population, in other words: machines replace human beings more and more (in an exponential way!).

Think about it!

:-k

You don't want to think about it?

[-o<

Try it!

#-o

But not too much ....

=;
Last edited by Arminius on Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:04 am, edited 21 times in total.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:13 pm

James S Saint wrote:And then there is the internal nanobot stage;



Note the very serious yet ignored distinction between a mechanism that might allow you to live longer (strictly for multimillionaires) versus a mechanism that constantly surveils you and feeds you subliminal, suggestive information.

If these people are really „forever living people“, then they will longer exist than the machines, provided that they will sufficiently early leave this planet, but therefor they will need the machines or - until then - they will have become mechanical human beings (NOT human mechanical beings, BUT mechanical human beings), such as cyborgs, equipped with nano-chips, nanobots (powered by ...[put in the right name]...), and so on.

The „forever living people“ can not really be forever living people, if they can not except or eliminate any accident and so on.

So I will have to ask again:

Will machines enslave human beings?
Will machines bring the death of all human beings?
Or will the human beings stop creating machines?
Who will longer exist: human beings or machines?

Will a physical "black hole" be caused (in James' sense =>) ?
Will that physical "black hole" absorb our earth or even our entire solar system?
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:41 am

In your questions, you ask if machines will "enslave humans". Machines tell humans what "is needed" or "what to do next". In sending a rocket to the Moon, the scientist doesn't dare argue with the computer. At merely that point, they are not totally enslaving humans, merely managing them by displaying to the humans the result of the logic programmed into them in such a way as to be influential. If the program was about winning wars, they tell the generals what to do in order to win the war. They are advising in such a way that the General doesn't dare refuse.

Gradually, those machines get more and more sophisticated such that they are managing the General, not merely displaying a selection of optional tactics. The machines are in effect, not merely managing that general, but enslaving the General's opponent. And when the General's opponent is the population itself, as is the case in the USA and most of Europe, the machines have enslaved the populous at the bequest of the General.

Currently social engineering psychiatrists and psychologists are doing that same thing using subliminal influence upon the adversary, the populous, and before the machines take over replacing the psychologists and psychiatrists. The machines already advise the social engineers. In the end, the game of social engineering is entirely an inescapable machine derived paradigm. The Generals and the social engineers become the populous being managed along with everyone else.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:17 am

In the late 70's I became a production manager for a small manufacturing company for the first time. Being new at that game and having many people depending on me to balance their wages properly, I wrote a program on a very small computer (before they were even called "PCs", to sum up everything I knew of the people plus any more that might be relavent to how much the company could profitably pay them for their job. It including just about everything that you could associate with being an employee; attendance records, intelligence profile to suit the job, learning capacity to potentially suit other jobs within the company, average enthusiasm, attention to the task at hand, getting along with others, their own professed goals in life,.... The program knew more about the personnel than their supervisors and the personnel department. And it also had a budget/profit algorithm with which to balance against wages.

I was surprised when I first ran the program that it yielded almost the exact same wages as they were already getting with few exceptions. This indicated that the program wasn't strongly needed, but it was designed to be entirely altruistic, unbiased. That program was designed to use all the exact same information that "Human Resources" people gather on people today with the exception of prior whispered reputations. Today Human resource people do that same thing except that they usually don't know that it is a program in a distant computer informing them, nor what biases are being used in order to engineer society in general.

That was back in the late 70's. Computer derived advise gained through remote "statistics" (far less relevant to the company at hand) have exponentially increased in their influence and capacity to persuade managers, especially in large companies. A big part of managing a company is managing the managers; selecting them based on computer derivations and gauging them relative to computer derived budget/profit concerns. A big part of managing the managers is to ensure that they adhere to computer advise (whether they realize it or not) - "loyal to the machine".

The intelligence of the people; the managers, engineers, and employees, is being replaced by remote machine intelligence. The people become merely humanoid drones. The people dare not think for themselves. Yet they are not aware that they are not thinking for themselves.

I saw it coming because I was a part of its original inspiration. It didn't take a megatronic, super-duper, ultra-computer of any kind. Merely a clever intelligence designer/programmer with good intent.


And more recently, I built and programmed what I call "Jack". Jack is a computer that emulates reality on the most fundamental level, below physics and automatically derives the "laws of physics". Jack knows things that even I don't know. Even I don't argue with Jack. Yet Jack was not any grand super-computer, merely very smart.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Moreno » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:46 am

Only_Humean wrote:It's an interesting point. In which case, though, these new machines will be more expensive than humans.
In some cases, in the beginning, though remember you have to work in saved costs on health care, increased workload - I mean, in the planners minds, that is, at least.
And it will be an evolution, just as homo sapiens replaced homo erectus. There will be "people" more fitted to their environment, more capable than us, descended from us but different. At what point does that become undesirable?
Imagine if certain individuals of homo erectus decided to plan their sucessor. (they might have chosen to be sabertoothed tiger men) Think about how people currently imagine how they would be better. We will have decisions made by corporations who will start on children letting them know what improvements they should want, and they generally will. There's a hubris involved and then one part of the mind thinking it has a good grasp of the whole picture.

And your also treating evolution as advancement. Successors need not be more fit, especially now that we can control what succeeds. In general succession suits the niche well. It doesn't mean that the horse is better than the eohippus. Here we can control the niche and the succession. Could just lead to a real mess.

Even more likely is something like, let's say it leads to a general reduction in emotion. And a few, frog in slowly upwarmed water generations later, we have people who are really quite empty, though like wasps very hardy and fit. They will likely not know what they are missing, not having anything to compare it to. And this is barely speculation - in terms of trends - having emotions today is nearly synonymous with being diagnosable.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Only_Humean » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:46 am

Moreno wrote:And your also treating evolution as advancement. Successors need not be more fit, especially now that we can control what succeeds. In general succession suits the niche well. It doesn't mean that the horse is better than the eohippus. Here we can control the niche and the succession. Could just lead to a real mess.


I'm certainly not assuming any teleology. Eohippus is not as well-fitted to the modern environment as the modern horse (or at least, we've been through an environmental situation where it was worse-suited than the modern horse). If we change our environment, the people we design for that environment will succeed only for as long as we can control the environment. When that changes, the changes we make may be handicaps, humanity may face extinction. But that's true at the moment too.

I agree that it's hubristic and unwise to assume that our tinkering will have the effects we foresee and no significant unwanted side-effects; in any complex system theoreticians lose out to conservative empirical tinkering, whether it's social or medicinal or whatever. But I think it's inevitable, because people like theories and like to think they're in control.

Even more likely is something like, let's say it leads to a general reduction in emotion. And a few, frog in slowly upwarmed water generations later, we have people who are really quite empty, though like wasps very hardy and fit. They will likely not know what they are missing, not having anything to compare it to. And this is barely speculation - in terms of trends - having emotions today is nearly synonymous with being diagnosable.


Seriously? Conversely: compared to a hundred years ago, western males are blubbering wrecks who are "in touch with their emotions" and "seeking closure" where their forefathers cauterised the pain and got over themselves. I honestly don't see emotion on a downward trend, except maybe compared to local high points like California in the 70s.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:51 pm

James S Saint wrote:The intelligence of the people; the managers, engineers, and employees, is being replaced by remote machine intelligence.

That's one of the reasons why I was saying in my last post that there is not only a correlation between machines and fertility, but also a correlation between machines and intelligence (=> #), although the difference is that the first correlation appears earlier than the second correlation, but both appear, and always appear (you can be sure).

James S Saint wrote:The people become merely humanoid drones.

This is was is said by "Wikipedia" about "drones (bee)":

"The drones' main function is to be ready to fertilize a receptive queen. Drones in a hive do not usually mate with a virgin queen of the same hive because they drift from hive to hive. Mating generally takes place in or near drone congregation areas. It is poorly understood how these areas are selected, but they do exist. When a drone mates with his sister, the resultant queen will have a spotty brood pattern (numerous empty cells on a brood frame). This is due to the removal of diploid drone larvae by nurse bees (i.e., a fertilized egg with two identical sex genes will develop into a drone instead of a worker).

Mating occurs in flight, which accounts for the need of the drones for better vision, which is provided by their large eyes. Should a drone succeed in mating he soon dies because the penis and associated abdominal tissues are ripped from the drone's body after sexual intercourse.

Honey bee queen breeders may breed drones to be used for artificial insemination or open mating. A queen mating yard must have many drones to be successful.

In areas with severe winters, all drones are driven out of the hive in the autumn. A colony begins to rear drones in spring and drone population reaches its peak coinciding with the swarm season in late spring and early summer. The life expectancy of a drone is about 90 days.

Drones do not exhibit typical worker bee behaviours such as nectar and pollen gathering, nursing, or hive construction. While drones are unable to sting, if picked up they may swing their tails in an attempt to frighten the disturber[citation needed]. Although the drone is highly specialized to perform one function, mating and continuing the propagation of the hive, it is not completely without side benefit to the hive. All bees, when they sense the hive's temperature deviating from proper limits, either generate heat by shivering, or exhaust heat by moving air with their wings—behaviours which drones share with worker bees. In some species drones will buzz around intruders in an attempt to disorient them if the nest is disturbed.

Drones fly in abundance in the early afternoon and are known to congregate in drone congregation areas a good distance away from the hive."

AND AFTER THAT THEY HAVE TO GO TO BED.

And here you said about ants and bees (incl. drones):

James S Saint wrote:If you were an ant or bee, there would be nothing wrong with being programmed to perform a very specifically designed task. Drones serve a great purpose.

But drones are preprogrammed to be blind to anything that might inspire them to be anything different than their programming, thus they are not inventive. And you don't program drones to be particularly self-valuing. The willingness to sacrifice themselves for the cause of the social order is great... for the social order.

Okay, that was said in a different thread (=> #), but it suits also in this thread.

There is a high probability that people will become humanoid or „cyborgoid“ bees.

James S Saint wrote: The people dare not think for themselves. Yet they are not aware that they are not thinking for themselves.

And in the not so very far future they will be a kind of cyborgs without any awareness of what happened in the past, what happens in the presence, and what will probably happen in the future because they just do what they are told, advised, ordered, commanded to.

The history of thinking must be written soon, since there is not many time left for that because the thinkless time will sooner begin than the most today's people "think".

And here is said:

James S Saint wrote:Destroy the species. That is the design intent.

If even a species destroys itself, than it can not be false to assume that machines will perhaps longer exist than the species "homo sapiens" who created them.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Moreno » Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:29 pm

Only_Humean wrote:
Moreno wrote:And your also treating evolution as advancement. Successors need not be more fit, especially now that we can control what succeeds. In general succession suits the niche well. It doesn't mean that the horse is better than the eohippus. Here we can control the niche and the succession. Could just lead to a real mess.


I'm certainly not assuming any teleology. Eohippus is not as well-fitted to the modern environment as the modern horse (or at least, we've been through an environmental situation where it was worse-suited than the modern horse). If we change our environment, the people we design for that environment will succeed only for as long as we can control the environment. When that changes, the changes we make may be handicaps, humanity may face extinction. But that's true at the moment too.
I actually doubt that the eohippus is less fit for today's Environment. Less large predators, easier to hide. I see no reason why it would NOW be less fit.

I agree that it's hubristic and unwise to assume that our tinkering will have the effects we foresee and no significant unwanted side-effects; in any complex system theoreticians lose out to conservative empirical tinkering, whether it's social or medicinal or whatever. But I think it's inevitable, because people like theories and like to think they're in control.

yes, I Think it is inevitable.


Seriously? Conversely: compared to a hundred years ago, western males are blubbering wrecks who are "in touch with their emotions" and "seeking closure" where their forefathers cauterised the pain and got over themselves. I honestly don't see emotion on a downward trend, except maybe compared to local high points like California in the 70s.
It's a good Point. Have to mull that a bit. It seems like there are a couple of trends happening at once. The pathologization and medicalizing of emotions AND the relaxation on taboos to some degree.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Only_Humean » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:23 pm

Moreno wrote:I'm certainly not assuming any teleology. Eohippus is not as well-fitted to the modern environment as the modern horse (or at least, we've been through an environmental situation where it was worse-suited than the modern horse). If we change our environment, the people we design for that environment will succeed only for as long as we can control the environment. When that changes, the changes we make may be handicaps, humanity may face extinction. But that's true at the moment too.
I actually doubt that the eohippus is less fit for today's Environment. Less large predators, easier to hide. I see no reason why it would NOW be less fit. [/quote]

Large herbivores are threatened everywhere. Humans want farmland, there's less to eat. Hunters want trophies, Chinese medicine wants ivory and hide. Maybe they could flourish in Siberia, or in a nature reserve. Horses do well because they're large enough and small enough and tameable enough to ride, and for the meat. Eohippus might be a good beast of burden.

Seriously? Conversely: compared to a hundred years ago, western males are blubbering wrecks who are "in touch with their emotions" and "seeking closure" where their forefathers cauterised the pain and got over themselves. I honestly don't see emotion on a downward trend, except maybe compared to local high points like California in the 70s.
It's a good Point. Have to mull that a bit. It seems like there are a couple of trends happening at once. The pathologization and medicalizing of emotions AND the relaxation on taboos to some degree.


My feeling is that the imperative to be happy is behind both pressures - happy as an emotion, a sensation, rather than a way of being in the world.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby gib » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:01 pm

Arminius wrote:If machines are cheaper than human beeings, then machines replace human beings.

Logical implication:

p = machines are cheaper than human beings.
q = machines replace human beings.
p --› q = machines are cheaper than human beings, thus machines replace human beings.

Truth table for a logical implication:

p | q | p --› q
t | t | .. t ..
t | f | .. f ..
f | t | .. t ..
f | f | .. t ..

We know that machines are cheaper than human beings, and we know that machines replace human beings.

But will all human beings completely replaced by machines? All human beings? All? And completely replaced? Completely? By machines? Machines?

What do you think?

:-k


IMHO, I don't think humans will ever be completely replaced by machines. I don't foresee our technology ever getting to a point where none of it ever has to be managed by human beings under some circumstance or other.

Besides that, human beings just won't stand for it. If machines completely replace us (in the workforce, that is), human beings will be out of work. We'll revolt and destroy the machines before we allow ourselves to starve.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:36 pm

So the frog will eventually jump out of the pot and overthrow the humans?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby fuse » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:17 pm

James S Saint wrote:So the frog will eventually jump out of the pot and overthrow the humans?

I just don't think it must necessarily end either way. Your frog analogy isn't very good, but both are possibilities. Machines could take over in some possible world, but I can also imagine a world where we aren't completely naive and don't build machines that end up actively destroying human kind. Machines that outlast people aren't necessarily replacing human beings either.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:23 pm

fuse wrote:Machines that outlast people aren't necessarily replacing human beings either.

They have been for years because the frog doesn't jump out of the pot.

Think about the economy. Certainly no intelligent governance would let it get as horrifically bad as it is, certainly not Greece. But the frog simply doesn't jump out of the pot, so why not?

It is called "Normalcy Bias".
The normalcy bias, or normality bias, refers to a mental state people enter when facing a disaster. It causes people to underestimate both the possibility of a disaster occurring and its possible effects. This often results in situations where people fail to adequately prepare for a disaster, and on a larger scale, the failure of governments to include the populace in its disaster preparations. The assumption that is made in the case of the normalcy bias is that since a disaster never has occurred then it never will occur. It also results in the inability of people to cope with a disaster once it occurs. People with a normalcy bias have difficulties reacting to something they have not experienced before. People also tend to interpret warnings in the most optimistic way possible, seizing on any ambiguities to infer a less serious situation.
Last edited by James S Saint on Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby fuse » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:29 pm

James S Saint wrote:
fuse wrote:Machines that outlast people aren't necessarily replacing human beings either.

They have been for years because the frog doesn't jump out of the pot.

Think about the economy. Certainly no intelligent governance would let it get as horrifically bad as it is, certainly not Greece. But the frog simply doesn't jump out of the pot, so why not?

It is called "Normalcy Bias".

Certainly any sufficiently selfish intelligent governance would allow the situation in Greece if there were a controllable benefit. Are you saying that machines are sabotaging our economies and cooking people alive?
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:31 pm

fuse wrote:Certainly any sufficiently selfish intelligent governance would allow the situation in Greece if there were a controllable benefit.

And who would that be?
And wouldn't that also apply to machines replacing people... for the same selfish reasons?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby fuse » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:36 pm

James S Saint wrote:
fuse wrote:Certainly any sufficiently selfish intelligent governance would allow the situation in Greece if there were a controllable benefit.

And who would that be?

I don't really know, but I also don't know it is a coup by machines to eliminate humans and take over. Either is possible, I suppose, but I can't accept the machine narrative without some serious evidence, and at the same time there is plenty of evidence of people controlling other people through power relations.

James S Saint wrote:And wouldn't that also apply to machines replacing people... for the same selfish reasons?

Sure, but I just don't believe there have to be such machines or that we don't stand a chance to control our devices.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:51 pm

fuse wrote:Sure, but I just don't believe there have to be such machines or that we don't stand a chance to control our devices.

"We" already don't control them.

Do you control what your eyes see?
Don't you respond in accord to what your eyes see?

If Google designed your eyes (which in a real sense they do along with Microsoft), you see what you are given to see by a machine that I can guarantee you Microsoft has lost all control over. And you respond accordingly, as do they, because they use similar machines to tell them of reality and what is really important and needed by society and the bank.

It is a machine that told Bill Gates that "We must immediately begin eliminating a great deal of the population". The machine logic reduced to simply, "We do things this way which costs that much which requires X amount of resources and people require too much of those resources." The machine wasn't asked if there is a better way of doing things because each step is already machine designed, so the presumption (without thought) is that "machines have already made it perfect enough and thus we simply must get rid of the people".

Basically, on the higher level, the machines have been asked merely to design a beehive or ant colony, but of ultimate power.


And it isn't a coup, it is designed to be voluntary so that the blame is shifted entirely upon You, the population.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby gib » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:35 pm

James S Saint wrote:So the frog will eventually jump out of the pot and overthrow the humans?


If this is an allusions to humans not responding to the gradual machine take-over, then it is a poor one. Think of it in terms of individuals rather than the labor force as a mass bulk: A man who has worked for a factory for several years and all of a sudden loses his job because a more efficient, powerful, faster machine has taken his place is not going through a gradual transition. His lay-off is sudden, and he will be upset. There will be a point when enough people experience this unwelcome transition at a high enough rate that they, in response to the prospect of starvation, will do something about it.
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Here lies the body of William J, who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sped along, but he's just as dead as if he were wrong.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:43 pm

gib wrote:
James S Saint wrote:So the frog will eventually jump out of the pot and overthrow the humans?


If this is an allusions to humans not responding to the gradual machine take-over, then it is a poor one. Think of it in terms of individuals rather than the labor force as a mass bulk: A man who has worked for a factory for several years and all of a sudden loses his job because a more efficient, powerful, faster machine has taken his place is not going through a gradual transition. His lay-off is sudden, and he will be upset. There will be a point when enough people experience this unwelcome transition at a high enough rate that they, in response to the prospect of starvation, will do something about it.

Utter non-sense.

The man doesn't see the slow changing that led to the machine taking his job as he was buying internet time, computers, investing in tech companies, paying taxes to be used to build more technocracy, and watching TV. By the time it is too late, the water has gotten too hot, he doesn't "jump out of the pot", he, in effect, dies - got laid off. He died from blindness of that which was sneaking up on him slowly, exactly like the slow boiling water that he can sense, but can't tell where it is coming from... until it is too late to do anything about it, but get kicked out - "die".

The analogy was formed pretty perfectly.... long ago when it was first stated.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby fuse » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:47 pm

James,

I just don't understand your thought process.

Do I control what my eyes see?
Well, I believe I can shut them if I want, or direct them on a certain part of my surroundings, so to some extent yes...

Do I respond in accord to what my eyes see?
I respond to what my eyes see according to a variety of factors...perhaps instinct takes over if I see something dangerous, probably other sensations, previous memories, or mood fluctuations factor into my response by providing the decision-making part(s) of my brain with context. I don't know what you're asking.

If Google designed my eyes?
What are you talking about? Google Glass, Google search results and algorithms, Google advertising, YouTube...?

It is a machine that told Bill Gates that "We must immediately begin eliminating a great deal of the population".

..or else what? What did the machine say would happen if we didn't? What conditions were given as input for the machine to come to that conclusion? Again, what are you talking about?
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:58 pm

fuse wrote:If Google designed my eyes?
What are you talking about? Google Glass, Google search results and algorithms, Google advertising, YouTube...?

Yes... all of that and more; "statistics that the government uses to promote various ideas and laws upon the population" (for example). And not merely gather with machines, but filtered and analyzed by machines in machine ways of thinking what has been said or done.

fuse wrote:
It is a machine that told Bill Gates that "We must immediately begin eliminating a great deal of the population".

..or else what? What did the machine say would happen if we didn't?

Or else the human race would entirely die out due to overpopulation devastating the resources. There have been quite a number of films and documentaries on it.

fuse wrote:What conditions were given as input for the machine to come to that conclusion? Again, what are you talking about?

Statistics were given, like the above example of Google, but far more, not merely from Google machines. And far too many machines for anyone to track down any errors that might have been involved, so they just go with the "probability" that the machines know what they are talking about and we had better obey "Science". We all know that Science can't be wrong else your cell phone wouldn't work. :icon-rolleyes:
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby gib » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:41 pm

James S Saint wrote:Utter non-sense.

The man doesn't see the slow changing that led to the machine taking his job as he was buying internet time, computers, investing in tech companies, paying taxes to be used to build more technocracy, and watching TV. By the time it is too late, the water has gotten too hot, he doesn't "jump out of the pot", he, in effect, dies - got laid off. He died from blindness of that which was sneaking up on him slowly, exactly like the slow boiling water that he can sense, but can't tell where it is coming from... until it is too late to do anything about it, but get kicked out - "die".

The analogy was formed pretty perfectly.... long ago when it was first stated.


James, is everything a pissing match to you?

You're equating death with the worker's being laid off. I was equating it with his literally dying of starvation. I'm saying the revolt will happen after the laying off. As for before it happens, I could agree with you that it's like the frog in boiling water scenario.
My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
- unknown source

Men must be taught as if you taught them not. And things unknown proposed as things forgot.
- Alexander Pope

Here lies the body of William J, who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sped along, but he's just as dead as if he were wrong.
- Boston Transcript
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Moreno » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:11 pm

gib wrote:IMHO, I don't think humans will ever be completely replaced by machines. I don't foresee our technology ever getting to a point where none of it ever has to be managed by human beings under some circumstance or other.
I agree with your conclusion but not your argument. Enhanced humans can oversee the Machines. AS the enhancement increase, the human is not longer human. So Machines once modelled to enhance humans could finally replace the humans and oversee other less AI like Machines. Each step away from being human will be small enough so that it is taken. The accumulation of steps eliminates the human. And there is a lot of Power behind this process.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Uccisore » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:55 am

Machines can't replace me because I don't do anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8mPuckq ... ure=vmdshb

http://deepfreeze.it/ Curious about corrupt practices in video game journalism? Look no further.
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