Will machines completely replace all human beings?

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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Tortis » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:04 am

http://computoser.com/

Pretty sure if you played this to people and said it was experimental music by Korean composer Ha Na Lee they would accept that.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby MagsJ » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:12 pm

Tortis wrote:There have been many robot painters. Don't know if this link will work, if not Google "aaron robot painter"

Does this art have "nuances"?
It's equally as bad as the worst human art out there, so on par with humans.. even if it is at the worst end of the scale. No nuances, but then bad art tends not to have any.

And there's this sort of thing:
Miranda and Tikhanoff describe an autonomous music composition system for the Sony AIBO robot that employs statistical models as well as rules.25 The system is trained on various styles of music and a short phrase is generated based off of the previous chord and first melodic note of the previous phrase. The AIBO interacts with its environment and the behavior of the composition is modified based off of obstacles, colors, the presence of humans, and different emotional states.
There's money to be made in gimmicks.. a glorified synthesiser in a robot is always gonna sell, but how will emotional states be gauged? through the external rather than the internal, so clapping and cheering rather than how we intrinsically feel?

Tortis wrote:http://computoser.com/

Pretty sure if you played this to people and said it was experimental music by Korean composer Ha Na Lee they would accept that.
There is zero nuance.. and therefore zero soul.. in that composition, but most over-produced popular music can be labeled so.

I was born in a pre-synth world, so perhaps that is why I can hear the difference between human and robot music, but once my kind die out there will be no-one left who can differentiate, and then robot offerings will be undifferentiatable from pre-synth and current over-produced offerings... saturation point.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:51 pm

They aren't going to be boasting on how much better their computers are than you .. quite the opposite.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Tortis » Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:04 pm

MagsJ wrote:It's equally as bad as the worst human art out there, so on par with humans.. even if it is at the worst end of the scale. No nuances, but then bad art tends not to have any.


Don't you see nuances in these?
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:00 pm

Why make computer art or computer music?

Human artists express themselves and communicate something about being human.

A computer expresses nothing and communicates nothing. Humans may find a pattern in the final product but that's it.

If a computer paints an exact replica of 'Guernica', it still knows nothing about the events at Guernica or what it means to humans.

That's why 'painted by a human" and "painted by a computer" are fundamentally different.

Mozart and Metallica are saying something deeper than a what a computer programmed to copy their composition style is 'saying'.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby nano-bug » Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:31 pm

Simulating soulfulness doesn't require a soul any more than a human assuming to know or sensing he has a soul without having to locate it, where it resides or how it resides.

Eventually styles will be imitated and you won't know the differences between sources. A seamless mirror. Why? Because human beings won't stop until they get computers to achieve this. Whether they achieve this a hundred years after they predict they will achieve it doesn't matter, they will achieve it. It doesn't matter if it happens in our lifetime, how many awkward mistakes or setbacks, how many noticeable flaws are detected today, it will happen.

You may say humans can't control the weather, won't ever control the weather. But there isn't one weather person who isn't trying to inch us toward total weather control at some point in the future. And every inch counts along the way, butterfly effect style.

We really have nothing but time to try and perfect Artificial Intelligence and Virtual Reality. Because we have time, we will perfect it. My bet, we perfect those things before the sun becomes a black-hole. Just because it won't happen in my lifetime, doesn't mean I'll hold my own human greatness up so high that a computer can't match it. All it has to do is imitate us. And all we have to do is teach it to imitate. Life, the big drama, is full of actors. Computers are built by actors, built to out perform.

Show me a nuance and I'll show you an author of that nuance. Show me an author and I'll show you computer programmer who designs programs to count that authors word choice and phrase frequency. And so on. It's called stylistics.

In the future they will look back at our history now and marvel at the time when computers didn't display human emotion to the exact, precise, micro-expression on a skin grown in a lab robot face. The same way we think of people using candles before light bulbs. Or walking to the the water well instead of turning the tap.

Think of computers as our children. It's really hard when they are little to picture them as adults. Just because we might die before they get married, doesn't mean the wedding won't happen, with grandchildren on the way who never met us but carry an old photo of us in their wallet everywhere they go.

Lastly, expressing what it means to be human changes because what it means to be human changes. Our emotional temperature is changing. Our emotions will meet the computer halfway. And the midpoint can also shift. Pointing for a caveman meant a lot more to him when he didn't have words, it was more meaningful than someone using gestures to give a stranger directions. Expressions evolve. We evolve. Computers evolve. We evolve together. To create more levels of evolution.

My last post on ILP. Thanks. :-"
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:15 pm

There is this strange fatalism that comes from being mesmerized by technology ... the idea that we can't control it or guide in directions that we desire and we should not even try.

As a result, we must accept loss of privacy, continuous surveillance, job loss, etc ... without question or resistance. :evil:
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Meno_ » Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:30 pm

Indeed. However, there is a catch. Expressions can be nuanced, but impressions can not. The feedback of input/output will be degraded, just as much as what critics of TV viewing level against them for thwarting inventive building of the imagination. There will be no effort involved in a constructive imagination-image building- so impressions will be exponentially short cut before we ever get to any black hole.

Simply, reality will stop to be a functional concept, since reality and virtual reality will become inseparable. Therefore, the concept of reality will become useless.

With no sense of the real, the public will have to be controlled near absolutely, as regards to anything reified , and their obvious lack in image making will reduce them to automorons. That this is already happening, with the half life of our planet still in the future, the idea of the black holed planet will have to be suppressed, because a disingenuous populace will commit mass suicide without a motif for life. It takes a great deal of imagination to be able to live and inspire life, no machine can ever do it, unless, and this is risky, unless we ourselves are machines, but then it was utter thoughtless to release that genie to the public.

More and more I think the Roman Catholics were right not to release that seal.

It may have been metaphorically , a prescription for the expulsion.

Is there a cure? Can it be reversed? Can 1984 be prevented?

That no one has yet thought of any, is no absolute proof of a Faustian deal again shrewdly broken.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:09 pm

jerkey wrote:Simply, reality will stop to be a functional concept, since reality and virtual reality will become inseparable. Therefore, the concept of reality will become useless.

.. a fantasy. People awake from dreams for a reason. When they stop awakening, the reason takes them away.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25976
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Tortis » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:44 am

phyllo wrote:Why make computer art or computer music?

Human artists express themselves and communicate something about being human.

A computer expresses nothing and communicates nothing. Humans may find a pattern in the final product but that's it.

If a computer paints an exact replica of 'Guernica', it still knows nothing about the events at Guernica or what it means to humans.

That's why 'painted by a human" and "painted by a computer" are fundamentally different.

Mozart and Metallica are saying something deeper than a what a computer programmed to copy their composition style is 'saying'.


These are certainly the accepted views, but philosophers (and artists) often seek to challenge accepted views.

Some artists might wish to challenge your views about self-expression and communication precisely by having art produced by a computer or some other non-human agency.

Some philosophers might wish to challenge your view that artists express themselves and communicate something.

If somebody (a human) in a Chinese painting factory paints a copy of "Guernica" without knowing what it means:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item-img/100 ... 7.2.7U31yK

100% Hand painted oil painting on canvas Famous artist Picasso abstract painting Guernica art picture decoration paintings

does that express something and communicate something?

I play jazz, and the accepted view is that that is all about self-expression and communication. So, suppose I learn to play Alabama by John Coltrane. It was written in response to the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing on September 15, 1963, an attack by the Ku Klux Klan in Birmingham, Alabama that killed four girls. But I don't know that when I learn it off an album, I think it is about the decline of the steel industry.

So I learn the tune, and I play it to you in a smoky nightclub. You listen to it and think I am communicating to you about the tragedy of the 16th Street bombing, the person next to you is thinking I am communicating about how sexy and mysterious I am, and while I am apparently playing with great intensity, I am actually thinking about whether I have enough fuel in the car to get home after the gig.

What is being expressed and communicated?
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby MagsJ » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:58 am

Tortis wrote:What is being expressed and communicated?
This: an event that sparked the initial process to conceptualise said event in an outward expression through the medium of music.
A response to the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing on September 15, 1963, an attack by the Ku Klux Klan in Birmingham, Alabama that killed four girls.
I wonder what those algorithms would spur a computer to create? probably something totally different to Coltrane's piece.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:01 pm

What is being expressed and communicated?
The original composer is expressing something in particular.

A player who learns and plays another artist's composition is saying that the piece is worth playing and passing on. He is inserting his own individual emphasis in the performance. He is showing his skill. He enjoys playing. Maybe all he is expressing is that he needs to get paid and put a few potatoes on his dinner plate. Maybe Mozart also produced pieces just to pay his rent.
The person in the audience is experiencing that and supporting it. Does there need to be more?

Even a copier in a Chinese painting factory is getting more out of it than a computer.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Tortis » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:19 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Tortis wrote:What is being expressed and communicated?
This: an event that sparked the initial process to conceptualise said event in an outward expression through the medium of music.


How is the original event (the KKK attack) being expressed through the music, if neither I nor the people listening to me are aware of the event, and we think the music expresses something completely different?

I don't believe the music carries that information. If the audience weren't told, they could never work it out from the music itself, from the sound.

The same is true of language: it doesn't carry information in the way that I think is generally assumed. That's what makes it an interesting philosophical question for me.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Tortis » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:44 pm

phyllo wrote:The original composer is expressing something in particular.


I composed a piece once and afterwards I thought it reminded me of the atmosphere on Sunday afternoons when I was a child, but I wasn't thinking about that when I first played it. I'm sure that's true of many compositions. I don't see how music itself can acquire the particular something you say the original composer is expressing.

Even a copier in a Chinese painting factory is getting more out of it than a computer.


They are having experiences, which in a sense is the whole world, and the computer isn't having any of that. But although it doesn't look like the worst job in the world, I don't think you could pick up the meaning Picasso was trying to convey from just copying the picture. If you didn't know the background you could take Guernica as a sort of funny cartoon, people and animals with distorted bodies, rushing about. Or a meaningless jumble of sketches.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:02 am

The audience doesn't have to get the exact meaning that the artist had in mind at the time.

The artist has a means of expressing himself.

The audience participates in this.

Remove the artist and replace him with a computer ... the audience loses the connection and gets pattern recognition at best.

Why remove the artist? What does it achieve? Efficiency? Profits for the owner of the algorithm?
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:12 am

phyllo wrote:Why remove the artist? What does it achieve? Efficiency? Profits for the owner of the algorithm?

High tech expertise at manipulating large audiences in chosen directions without having to put up with artists.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby nano-bug » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:21 am

It makes a difference if you are told a human or computer is behind the art. If you aren't told and you can't tell the difference, that is what the Turning Test measures.

I don't say this in an insensitive way. I'm a storyteller and my year of hard work will be replaced a computer in the narrative science field that can produce much quicker.

The only positive about this, it frees me up to do other stuff.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Tortis » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:54 am

nano-bug wrote:You may say humans can't control the weather, won't ever control the weather. But there isn't one weather person who isn't trying to inch us toward total weather control at some point in the future.


I don't believe there is a single meteorologist who is trying this. Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

And every inch counts along the way, butterfly effect style.


But the butterfly effect is chaotic, it illustrates precisely the opposite of what you imply, it shows how difficult it would be to control the weather, because of the unpredictability of the results of even tiny interventions. Not every flap of a butterfly's wings produces a hurricane!

Show me an author and I'll show you computer programmer who designs programs to count that authors word choice and phrase frequency. And so on. It's called stylistics.


It's called computational stylistics, and it is unable to achieve what stylistics can achieve when conducted by humans. It fails to capture what is most important.

In the future they will look back at our history now and marvel at the time when computers didn't display human emotion to the exact, precise, micro-expression on a skin grown in a lab robot face.


There are already remarkably convincing robot faces. There are however no underlying emotions to display.

My last post on ILP.


It's always a tactical mistake to say this.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:18 pm

And they will never be so creatively clever as to beat humans at chess either.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Tortis » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:55 pm

nano-bug wrote:I don't say this in an insensitive way. I'm a storyteller and my year of hard work will be replaced a computer in the narrative science field that can produce much quicker.


What kind of storyteller?
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Tortis » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:04 pm

James S Saint wrote:And they will never be so creatively clever as to beat humans at chess either.


James, if you are going to continue to engage with this discussion I do wish you would say something just a little bit interesting.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby IrvaLoona » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:07 pm

MagsJ wrote:
IrvaLoona wrote:Machines deprive millions people of work, they do. But still people servу the cyborgs :)
Afterall, it was noticed that people strive after genuine art which can't be reproduced by robots.

Welcome to ILP Irva.

Robot art would surely lack the emotion that creates a piece in the first place, but I'm sure the robot builders will come up with a random set of emotions created slot-machine style to resolve that issue, but it would probably be a soulless piece.



And robots will admire their own art :) Not only paintings which are perceived by eye elements
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby IrvaLoona » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:10 pm

phyllo wrote:Why make computer art or computer music?

Human artists express themselves and communicate something about being human.

A computer expresses nothing and communicates nothing. Humans may find a pattern in the final product but that's it.

If a computer paints an exact replica of 'Guernica', it still knows nothing about the events at Guernica or what it means to humans.

That's why 'painted by a human" and "painted by a computer" are fundamentally different.

Mozart and Metallica are saying something deeper than a what a computer programmed to copy their composition style is 'saying'.



Roughly speaking, computers are taught by people. Anyway, it's another branch of human art, isn't it?
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:44 pm

Tortis wrote:
James S Saint wrote:And they will never be so creatively clever as to beat humans at chess either.


James, if you are going to continue to engage with this discussion I do wish you would say something just a little bit interesting.

James' contributions to this thread are excellent. Read the thread and "judge" afterwards.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:39 am

.
From a different lecture, but related:
Love and Machines

Love is the inner recognition of hope in the good (from PHT). It inspires the "act of love", being an effort to help out, support, and perhaps obtain what is being recognized.

As love, what a person senses is the result of an inner part of them (their "inner spirit", aka "subconscious") recognizing that there is something to be cherished, and perhaps to an extreme degree and priority (such as a mother's infant).

As hope is vested into the subject of love, the love grows deeper as other priorities fade. And as hope is vested in other things, love in the subject fades. Thus is the inspiration for jealousy and depression (recognition of threat from PHT). The love that doesn't fade is the love that vests hope in such fundamental and common factors that other subjects of love reflect merely more of the same, not something substantially different. In that way, the vested interest cannot actually escape to anything else (such as loving all life because life itself is what is being recognized as hope). Such a love is said to be "endless".

Machines can one day earnestly deserve deep love (and will). Such machines will not be loved for being human, but rather for being life and/or for being subservient beyond what people might offer.

And realize that "human" merely means the "hue of man", the lower component in the make of Man. When machines have displaced most people, some being sentient, they will be the "hue of Man", the "humans". And then the love of humans will mean the love of sentient machines.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

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