Page 3 of 5

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:43 am
by Magnus Anderson
The first isn't rational and the second isn't irrational. They are simply two different goals. If you want to achieve your goals, whatever these goals are, through your own personal effort, and not by luck, you have to be rational. You have to choose what helps you move towards your goal (rationality) and not away from it (irrationality.)

We say that trolling the trolls is irrational, and therefore bad, because of the common situation in which one does not switch between one's goals properly -- one remains focused on the former goal, a goal which has nothing to do with trolling -- and because in such circumstances, trolling, no matter how rational in relation to the goal of trolling, is irrational in relation to the goal of helping others understand your point.

Try positing two conflicting goals at the same time. Say, move your hand to the left and move your hand to the right. Both goals will be unmet and both attempts will be irrational (even though they are rational in relation to one of the two goals.)

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:58 pm
by gib
Magnus Anderson wrote:The first isn't rational and the second isn't irrational. They are simply two different goals. If you want to achieve your goals, whatever these goals are, through your own personal effort, and not by luck, you have to be rational. You have to choose what helps you move towards your goal (rationality) and not away from it (irrationality.)


Yes, you have to be rational with yourself, but not necessarily with the other. In the trolling example, you're best bet is to look for buttons you can press, sensitive spots, triggers... and just being irrational itself can be infuriating to the other person. <-- But that's just a front. Behind the curtains, you still have to strategize in your own head, and of course that requires rationality.

However, I think sometimes instincts and intuition have their place. Often professionals, when they do their work, rely on instincts and intuitions that have been embedded in their psyche from all the tactics and lessons and experiences they've had in the past such that they don't have to think them through anymore--they just have a sense for it, they just "know". I think salespeople are like this, those who make a career out of dealing with people.

Magnus Anderson wrote:We say that trolling the trolls is irrational, and therefore bad, because of the common situation in which one does not switch between one's goals properly -- one remains focused on the former goal, a goal which has nothing to do with trolling -- and because in such circumstances, trolling, no matter how rational in relation to the goal of trolling, is irrational in relation to the goal of helping others understand your point.


That might be one way people construe it, but in the example of trolling, I'm thinking more along the lines of deliberately saying things that are irrational in order to frustrate the person. For example, if someone says:

"I've been to gay bars before."

You might say: "So you're gay?"

Really, it's not rational to conclude that a person is gay just because they've been to a gay bar, but you'd say it anyway because you know that's how to goad him.

Magnus Anderson wrote:Try positing two conflicting goals at the same time. Say, move your hand to the left and move your hand to the right. Both goals will be unmet and both attempts will be irrational (even though they are rational in relation to one of the two goals.)


I can do that. :D

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:01 pm
by James S Saint
Only irrational people separate their instincts and "gut feelings" from their rationale.

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:14 pm
by gib
James S Saint wrote:Only irrational people separate their instincts and "gut feelings" from their rationale.


Do you mean that if you integrate them, then it's still rational?

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:16 pm
by James S Saint
gib wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Only irrational people separate their instincts and "gut feelings" from their rationale.


Do you mean that if you integrate them, then it's still rational?

I mean that if you Don't integrate them, it is Irrational.

What did you think being w"holy" meant?

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:26 pm
by gib
Makes sense to me.

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:29 pm
by The Eternal Warrior
gib wrote:
Some Guy in History wrote:So, then, it's under-rated at the same time as being over-rated?


No, it's very simple. Here's a spectrum:

<-- Completely useless .......... overrated .......... just right .......... underrated -->

My original claim was that rationality is over here:

<-- Completely useless .......... overrated .......... just right .......... underrated -->
...........................................^^

Then you said: so it's over here?

<-- Completely useless .......... overrated .......... just right .......... underrated -->
.............^^

Then I said: Uh... no, it's over here:

<-- Completely useless .......... overrated .......... just right .......... underrated -->
...........................................^^

Then you said: so it's over here?

<-- Completely useless .......... overrated .......... just right .......... underrated -->
...........................................................................................^^

Then I said:

](*,)


At the point that what is labeled as completely useless is in this objective example at all, then it hasn't been completely useless, has it?

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:33 pm
by gib
Some Guy in History wrote:At the point that what is labeled as completely useless is in this objective example at all, then it hasn't been completely useless, has it?


Huh? You mean it was useful because it got to be in the diagram?

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:43 pm
by The Eternal Warrior
gib wrote:
Some Guy in History wrote:At the point that what is labeled as completely useless is in this objective example at all, then it hasn't been completely useless, has it?


Huh? You mean it was useful because it got to be in the diagram?


It shows that the defining label of 'completely useless' should be considered to change to 'mostly useless', at the very least. Nothing likes to be 'completely' useless, especially when it exists anyway.

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:12 am
by Magnus Anderson
Yes, you have to be rational with yourself, but not necessarily with the other. In the trolling example, you're best bet is to look for buttons you can press, sensitive spots, triggers... and just being irrational itself can be infuriating to the other person. <-- But that's just a front. Behind the curtains, you still have to strategize in your own head, and of course that requires rationality.


Well then, I don't see why you would call that irrational if that's precisely what you want to do. It's irrational only in its appearance -- it appears to the other that you are irrational -- but not in itself.

Again, I would say you're discussing goals here and not modes of judgment. You're simply saying it's sometimes better to be disrespectful towards others than to be respectful. You are NOT saying that there are times when it's better to be irrational rather than rational.

There is, however, one sense in which trying to make your point clear to others, and in general perform some action, is irrational.

Suppose that it leads to frustration, to overwhelming emotional reaction. Wouldn't then be rational to stop performing that action and irrational to keep performing it?

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:21 am
by Magnus Anderson
However, I think sometimes instincts and intuition have their place. Often professionals, when they do their work, rely on instincts and intuitions that have been embedded in their psyche from all the tactics and lessons and experiences they've had in the past such that they don't have to think them through anymore--they just have a sense for it, they just "know". I think salespeople are like this, those who make a career out of dealing with people.


You are rational insofar your instincts work with each other rather than against each other. Reason isn't opposed to instincts. It is only opposed to their confusion. Pretty sure that these people that you mention are rational.

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:37 am
by gib
Magnus Anderson wrote:Well then, I don't see why you would call that irrational if that's precisely what you want to do. It's irrational only in its appearance -- it appears to the other that you are irrational -- but not in itself.


What I'm calling "irrational" are the words you say to the other person, not necessarily what's going on in your head. Take the example I gave above about going to a gay bar. If you say:

"I went to a gay bar."

And just to push your buttons, I said: "So you're gay?"

What I'm saying is not rational--it doesn't follow from going to a gay bar that one is gay--though I may know it's irrational in my head.

Magnus Anderson wrote:Again, I would say you're discussing goals here and not modes of judgment. You're simply saying it's sometimes better to be disrespectful towards others than to be respectful.


I'd use the word "cooperative".

Magnus Anderson wrote:You are rational insofar your instincts work with each other rather than against each other. Reason isn't opposed to instincts. It is only opposed to their confusion. Pretty sure that these people that you mention are rational.


Sure, they can be just as rational as anyone else. But I'm saying that listening to the voice of one's instincts or intuition is not the same thing as rationality--though I'll agree that they aren't opposed to it. I use the word "rationality" to denote a thought process--one thinks through something in a logical/rational manner; but sometimes one just "knows" the right answer, the correct course of action, by way of instinct or intuition, and in this case he is not using rationality (though again, it's not necessarily incompatible with rationality). On the other hand, if one thought to one's self: "I know my instincts have never lead me astray in the past; therefore, it seems reasonable that I can trust them in the present case; so then, I'll trust my instincts." <-- That would be a rational thought process.

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:28 am
by encode_decode
Like we need to sleep to stay alive so that we can wake up - I would say that we need some non-rational time to keep our rationality in good working order or something like that.

There was a time where everything I did had to be scientific, even the entertainment I watched and then one day I thought "wait a minute". Wait a minute for what? It is the imagination that helps us to invent things not rationality. Ever since rationality became the big thing I have noticed a major drop in innovation - we just seem to be rehashing the same ideas. It has become a very repetitive world. Most people would disagree for reasons like "but it is the iPhone 7 not the iPhone 6" and I would say an iPhone is a bloomin iPhone.

Just saying.

:D

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:43 pm
by phyllo
Ever since rationality became the big thing I have noticed a major drop in innovation - we just seem to be rehashing the same ideas.
:-?
When do you think rationality "became the big thing"?

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:16 pm
by encode_decode
phyllo wrote:
Ever since rationality became the big thing I have noticed a major drop in innovation - we just seem to be rehashing the same ideas.
:-?
When do you think rationality "became the big thing"?

Yeah I know - I possibly should have even put in some parenthesis - (the exceptions). Either way innovation has dropped; "became the big thing" is most definitely overstating it. I say the majority of the population is actually crazy(colloquially speaking) and not rational at all however I do not see what the rational minority are doing that is actually fixing the worlds issues.

Tell me phyllo - do you think all of the research projects that are being funded are worth their money?

I also do not think some people deserve the jobs they have. As far as rationality is concerned, I see a lack of it at all levels. It is fairly important that rationality is employed where there are spending decisions that affect huge amounts of people.

So in essence phyllo, I may have made an error with what I was saying(which I am not going to lose sleep over) but I do not think that matters too much since that whole paragraph started out as a pointless anecdote. Also given the title of the thread I don't think it hurts to play a little. I do not even know if the first sentence in my post is true. Just the same I am not even sure it is worth talking about. I could have said " Ever since extreme behavior became the big thing" but what is that anyhow?

:-k

I am just lost in a world that has a baffling amount of differing opinions.

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:11 am
by gib
Rationality became the big thing back in Ancient Greek times. It had a lull in the dark ages, then a resurgence in the Enlightenment, and now seems to be going into a lull again

encode_decode wrote:Yeah I know - I possibly should have even put in some parenthesis - (the exceptions). Either way innovation has dropped; "became the big thing" is most definitely overstating it. I say the majority of the population is actually crazy(colloquially speaking) and not rational at all however I do not see what the rational minority are doing that is actually fixing the worlds issues.


I think it would take a bit more than a small handful of rational people to fix the world's issues. Everybody needs to be on board. Otherwise, you're just one rational man preaching to the deaf and the dumb.

encode_decode wrote:I also do not think some people deserve the jobs they have. As far as rationality is concerned, I see a lack of it at all levels. It is fairly important that rationality is employed where there are spending decisions that affect huge amounts of people.


Absolutely!

encode_decode wrote:So in essence phyllo, I may have made an error with what I was saying(which I am not going to lose sleep over) but I do not think that matters too much since that whole paragraph started out as a pointless anecdote. Also given the title of the thread I don't think it hurts to play a little. I do not even know if the first sentence in my post is true. Just the same I am not even sure it is worth talking about. I could have said " Ever since extreme behavior became the big thing" but what is that anyhow?

:-k

I am just lost in a world that has a baffling amount of differing opinions.


Hey Ed, this ties into some of my comments from your other thread--you know, about how the brain will use whatever strategy it must in order to get by. Rationality is just one strategy. Social tricks are another. Intuition is a third. The reason you see a disturbing lack of rationality all around you, and why you find yourself amidst a baffling amount of differing opinions, is because in today's world, human brains are finding that strategies other than rationality work best for them. This may not have been the case a while back, say during the Enlightenment period, but it seems that anti-intellectualism is sweeping across the Western world in such awesome waves that many are doubting the utility of strict rationality.

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:46 am
by encode_decode
gib wrote:Rationality became the big thing back in Ancient Greek times. It had a lull in the dark ages, then a resurgence in the Enlightenment, and now seems to be going into a lull again

I was not thinking real hard when I made the post - Socrates taught Plato who taught Aristotle if I am not mistaken and from what I remember reading, only Aristotle's lecture notes survived, whereas writings of Plato survived. I am in fear of a modern dark ages and kind of figured an enlightenment of sorts was on the horizon for all of us a few years back but now I am not so sure.

gib wrote:I think it would take a bit more than a small handful of rational people to fix the world's issues. Everybody needs to be on board. Otherwise, you're just one rational man preaching to the deaf and the dumb.

Believe me, I totally agree.

gib wrote:Hey Ed, this ties into some of my comments from your other thread--you know, about how the brain will use whatever strategy it must in order to get by. Rationality is just one strategy. Social tricks are another. Intuition is a third. The reason you see a disturbing lack of rationality all around you, and why you find yourself amidst a baffling amount of differing opinions, is because in today's world, human brains are finding that strategies other than rationality work best for them. This may not have been the case a while back, say during the Enlightenment period, but it seems that anti-intellectualism is sweeping across the Western world in such awesome waves that many are doubting the utility of strict rationality.

I guess I am just a grumpy old brain and this was an occasion of selfish want - want for things to stay the same. It is strange though because I am always telling people that change is inevitable. You are correct that this ties into your other comments from the other thread and I also agree that the brain has strategies other than rationality. I actually read an interesting article on the social conscious that human seems to share which illustrated how most people imitate others if they see the benefit to their own lives . . . makes you think.

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:21 pm
by gib
encode_decode wrote:I was not thinking real hard when I made the post :lol: It's all right, I was just dropping my 2 cents - Socrates taught Plato who taught Aristotle if I am not mistaken and from what I remember reading, only Aristotle's lecture notes survived, whereas writings of Plato survived. I am in fear of a modern dark ages and kind of figured an enlightenment of sorts was on the horizon for all of us a few years back but now I am not so sure.


I think in the modern world, there is a tendency to expect progress as we head towards the future. We tend to think of ourselves as a society in a constant state of advancement. Whenever one is asked to think about the future, say 100 or 200 years from now, one usually imagines a world of super-advanced technology and scientific understanding. But in my mind, it's just as probable that it might end up being more like Planet of the Apes.

I had a thread a while back called Reforming Democracy in which I ended on an absolutely dismal note (I essentially "cursed" America). It was in that thread that I became certain that we are on the cusp of another Dark Age--except that this Dark Age would be characterized by too much information rather than not enough. I came to the conclusion that we are inundated with too much conflicting information out of we cannot make heads or tails, and moreover all information we get (from media, from teachers, from acquaintances) is, to one degree or another, tainted. In that thread (and through other experiences in my life) I learnt how much the world runs on lies and deception, not truth and honesty, and therefore one is better off doubting the information one receive than believing it. Thus, as much as we are flooded with information, as much as it's all available at our finger tips (via Google, wikipedia, etc.), it's all useless, and thus equivalent to a total lack of information, just like any other Dark Age.

But I have a bad habit of being overly cynical.

encode_decode wrote:I guess I am just a grumpy old brain and this was an occasion of selfish want - want for things to stay the same. It is strange though because I am always telling people that change is inevitable. You are correct that this ties into your other comments from the other thread and I also agree that the brain has strategies other than rationality. I actually read an interesting article on the social conscious that human seems to share which illustrated how most people imitate others if they see the benefit to their own lives . . . makes you think.


I agree that change is inevitable, but I don't think it's always for the better. Half the problem is who is driving change. If you take left-wing politics vs. right-wing politics, for example, you see a tug-o-war between two factions trying to pull the world in opposite directions. "Advanced" to the right means less government, to the left means more government. Advancement is simply moving further along in the direction you're already going, but for those who think we ought to be going in the opposite direction, that's "devancement".

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:09 pm
by encode_decode
gib wrote:Whenever one is asked to think about the future, say 100 or 200 years from now, one usually imagines a world of super-advanced technology and scientific understanding. But in my mind, it's just as probable that it might end up being more like Planet of the Apes.

Sometimes it feels like I am on the Planet of the Apes already(not to take what you said out of context) but then I touch my code and I feel grateful to be alive; other times I come to places like this forum - read all the different things - and whether they show negative or positive tendencies realize there are still intelligent, thinking beings in existence.

gib wrote:I had a thread a while back called Reforming Democracy in which I ended on an absolutely dismal note (I essentially "cursed" America). It was in that thread that I became certain that we are on the cusp of another Dark Age--except that this Dark Age would be characterized by too much information rather than not enough.

There sure is too much information but I still wonder whether it could be put to good use. Me and Politics(intentional bad syntax) are not friends; too much rhetoric and not enough results. Don't get me wrong I still keep my eye on the filthy, lying, cheating , . . . . . . , rotting mental corpses(oops). Now where was I? Seriously though, I see potential in good leadership.

All knowledge is beneficial I think - if you know how to differentiate between the good and the bad. Adding an extra layer of individuality to our conscience where spirituality used to exist just leaves the gap unfilled. I don't see why people insist on having something that is already there. Maybe it is a sign that we want to evolve mentally.

I have an infinity is zero rule - it goes like this(and it is not up for debate(I ignore you(lol))) - where you have infinity :: you have zero.

With the aforementioned rule the only place to be is in the middle and the middle is always somewhat messy. Maybe the politics of today is just outdated, obsolete, not applicable to the modern world , . . . . . . , garbage(yep I did it again).

:lol:

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:49 pm
by surreptitious57
I find the best place to be between zero and infinity is not in the middle but on the outside where one substitutes participation for mere observance
It is not entirely practical but the sense of detachment can provide peace of mind which is necessary any time one feels they have to take a position
on an issue. Now information overload is a problem in the digital era but over time one can develop the skills required to sort the good from the bad

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:40 pm
by encode_decode
surreptitious57 wrote:I find the best place to be between zero and infinity is not in the middle but on the outside where one substitutes participation for mere observance
It is not entirely practical but the sense of detachment can provide peace of mind which is necessary any time one feels they have to take a position
on an issue. Now information overload is a problem in the digital era but over time one can develop the skills required to sort the good from the bad

I love it - I love it so much - because it illustrates very well the title of the thread. To be on the outside of zero and infinity - that I said I was not going to debate it - I don't have to debate it - because you placed yourself outside of it. This "problem in the digital era" we deal with through multiple mechanisms - not just the mechanism of rationality.
=D>

Re: Rationality is overrated

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:38 pm
by Kathrina
gib wrote:
Kathrina wrote:Mostly, I am analyzing them, and analyzing has to do with rationality.


Oh yeah, definitely use rationality there (but also, make room for instinct, intuition).

I think, there is always enough room for instinct and Intuition.

Too much information . . .

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:08 am
by encode_decode
    gib

    I was nearly going to resurrect this thread myself but it seems I do not have to. I have reused a quote that reminded me of something in the meaning thread and added the surrounding information for it to illustrate what you are saying about too much information rather than not enough.

    I also think there is a lot of corruption in science and this corruption is on purpose - not so much conspiracy by a small group but a natural feedback that occurs when we as a race move too fast. There is just so much knowledge we do not need to know - but it seems to be a law that to get something you have to pay more than it is worth - I am not talking about money now either.

    gib wrote:I had a thread a while back called Reforming Democracy in which I ended on an absolutely dismal note (I essentially "cursed" America). It was in that thread that I became certain that we are on the cusp of another Dark Age--except that this Dark Age would be characterized by too much information rather than not enough.

    As you know I have a theory that there is a natural feedback loop for too much information.

    I kind of do mean science working too fast - and I kind of mean that we have accumulated too much information up to 2017 - an information overload - the scales have been broken, so to speak. I still think there is plenty of quality there but to a degree, yes, sacrificing quality for quantity. I imagine that it is the reason why we hear so many science reports only to be refuted or exposed for their sloppy methods a few years later. I would say for every bad report there is plenty more science going on. Some of that science of course would be sloppy. It is probably fair to say that the quality of science has dimished, but by how much? Well we know it was never up to 100% quality, so where would that leave us - lets just play with made up figures to illustrate. If the optimum degree of quality(ODoQ) is usually 92% then I guess taking into consideration the bad science that has not been exposed plus the bad science that has been exposed would drop the ODoQ down to lets say, 83%. Can we afford this level of ODoQ with too much information(aka information overload), am I imagining things, I do not think I am imagining things even as hard as it might be to prove my claim. We know quality in general in life has dropped - not to be confused with quality of life - so why would science be immune?

    You know the old saying though - what goes up must come down - there has to be some sort of ceiling for science before it collapses. Many people have been educated in science in recent decades - not everybody can be a scientist for Pete's sake.

    I am now thinking about the argument for not enough information.

    :-k

    Peace!

    Re: Rationality is overrated

    PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:24 pm
    by Alf
    Rationality is overrated

    Rationality isn't overrated. Maybe it was overrated in the past.

    Irrationality has more and more taken over.

    Re: Rationality is overrated

    PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:42 am
    by Arminius
    Alf wrote:
    Rationality is overrated

    Rationality isn't overrated. Maybe it was overrated in the past.

    Irrationality has more and more taken over.

    Unfortunately.