Rationality is overrated

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Moderator: Only_Humean

Forum rules
Forum Philosophy

Rationality is overrated

Postby gib » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:03 pm

Rationality is not all it's cracked up to be. I see too many people trying to be rational all the time--under every circumstance, with every person, any time of the day. We are a culture of rationalists--we were ever since the Greeks discovered the power of reason to arrive at "truth". It is embedded in our culture as much as religion, political ideology, and ethics, but it is just as much a prejudice and just as skewing of our outlook on reality and human nature.

I believe there is always a place for things like rationality, ethics, religion, etc. in human life, but it is a mistake to think one or another of these should always dominate everything we do and think, and that everything else in our lives (emotional thinking in opposition to rationality, selfishness in opposition to ethics, science in opposition to religion) should take its orders from that one dominant standard. I think this is true for rationality as much as for anything else.

Rationality has its place. I would be concerned, to say the least, if I knew that the engineers who designed my car weren't thinking rationally when they built it. The lives of consumers depend on the engineers of technology to think rationally when building the products they distribute and sell. But there are other areas where I think rational thinking actually works as a disadvantage. For example, dealing with politicians, lawyers, and salesmen. I'm probably stereotyping here, but we all know the type: the sleaze ball manipulator who's good with people only because he exploits their willingness to listen to reason and try to respond rationally (think of Animal Farm: the pigs who con the other animals into letting them horde all the apples--as the leaders of the farm, they need to do all the thinking for the others, and therefore need the apples because they are good for the brain). We see it in advertizements all the time; I saw one the other day: "Did you know that your child seat has an expiration date?" It does?!?! Well, then as a rational parent, the right thing for me to do is go out and buy new child seats for my children. A rational parent would never put their kids' lives at risk. So go out and make someone rich off my guilt.

But how do I know what an expiration date on a child seat really means? Couldn't it be just like the expiration dates on food? Namely, that the producers simply aren't willing to claim that the food will stay good past that date--yet we all know from experience that many of the feeds we eat do stay good well after that expiration date. How do we know that they don't know it too--those producers--how do we know that they know that the food will be perfectly safe to eat even if they stamped the expiration date as twice the duration that they normally do? How do we know that the only reason they don't do that is because they realize that the more frequently we throw the food out, the more frequently we'll be buying replacements, filling the producers' wallets just as frequently?

So what is an expiration date on a child seat anyway? At first glance, the thought of it seems silly on its face? Does the plastic material grow mold? Does it become soft and pliable such that it can no longer withstand high impacts? Or does it simply mean this: in all the studies that the engineers conducted to test the safety of these seats, the longest period of time they tested for was 2 years (let's just say), and so they can only guarantee that the seat is safe for two years. But it's not that after that two year period, the seat begins to degrade or become unsafe somehow, it's just that they haven't done the tests. So, of course, they have to put an expiration date on it. Or maybe it's this: statistically speaking, after two years, there is some probability that your child seat will incur some damage--a crack, a broken spring, a defective buckle. But this is just statistically speaking. Maybe 1 out of 50 parents did something by accident to the child seat--maybe in moving it to a different vehicle--and so when they investigated all 50 child seats, they found some damage on that one, and therefore had to calculate in the statistics that, on average, the child seats they tested has such-and-such a probablity of being damaged after 2 years. But what the hell does that one damaged child seat have to do with mine? What is it about 2 years going by that puts my child seat at risk of being damaged? Hell, what does the 2 years have to do with the damaged noticed on that 1 child seat out of 50? What caused the damage was the parent's own carelessness, not the 2 years that went buy. Such careless could happen the day after the parent buys the seat. It could happen 20 years later. If this is what they mean by an "expiration date", it makes no sense.

But advertizers and marketers don't care. They know that all they have to do is say "Look, parents, your child seat has an expiration date! Are you the type of parent who puts his children's lives at risk? If you're not, then the most rational thing to do is go out and buy a new child seat." It's a guilt trip--plane and simple. Yet, rationality serves as the bars behind which we stay imprisoned, by ourselves no less, in the manipulative hands of the con artists who exploit our commitment to rationality.

These con artists--that is what they are--know that a man who is devoted to thinking rationally is as manipulable as a computer is programmable. That is what programming a computer amounts to, after all--manipulation--and it is squarely on account of the fact that computers are the quintessential "rational thinkers" par excellence that we can so manipulate them. They were built to be slaves--mechanical robotic slave--and they were only successfully built to serve that purpose because we designed them to think strictly and exclusively with logic and mathematical rationality. If we had built them to arbitrarily decide to do whatever the hell they felt like--even if it was highly irrational--we would have no control over them.

Politicians, lawyers, and salesmen know this. They know that all they have to do to manipulate the people--like robots, like slaves--is (like pigs) to whip up something rational-sounding, something that is difficult to see any logical holes in, and the people, devoting themselves to being rational, will (like sheep) feel compelled to fall in line.

This is why I believe we shouldn't always act rationally. Sometimes, I think, it's okay to say "no" to a rationally sounding politician, or advertizement, or priest, or teacher, or professional, in favor of just doing whatever it is one feels like doing. Would it be the more rational decision to buy your product, support your political agenda, follow your professional advice, based on the reasons you supplied? Maybe. But I don't feel like. Does that make me less rational? Perhaps. But I don't give a fuck. It's my life. It's my choice. I am free, and I'm not about to surrender my freedom to you just because I can't, right now, find the flaws in your reasoning. I have my--let's call it--intuition--that's right: a fuzzy, mysterious, not-well-understood feeling--I'm daring to think emotionally now--that tells me that you're wrong, and that I do have a good enough reason to follow my own course of action--even if I can't spell out that reason right now (what is intuition anyway but the brain drawing a conclusion without offering to consciousness the steps it used to get there?).

This is why sometimes, here at ILP, I will not be rational. If I sense that the person I'm having a discussion with merits my reason, I will be reasonable with them, but if I sense the person I'm having a discussion with is a troll--well, then being reasonable with him just makes me putty in his hands. That's why being irrational with some people can actually help you "win" the argument.

So is rationality overrated? You bet! Should we throw it out all together. Of course not, you idiot! It has it's place. Rationality is useful when used between people who are sincerely trying to cooperate together--those who intend to honor the implicit commitment they mutually share to arrive at a common goal--understanding, truth, problem solving, whatever it is--but it is a double edged sword: rationality can work against you when you're up against those who wish to exploit your willingness to be rational for their own manipulative agendas. So use rationality at your own discretion--know when it will work to your advantage, but also when it will not. Find it's place in your life, and never ever put it above yourself as the god that rules over your life and dominates everything you do and say.
My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
- surreptitious75

The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
- encode_decode
User avatar
gib
little shitheaded Buddha
 
Posts: 8341
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
Location: lost (don't try to find me)

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Moreno » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:50 pm

It is.
If you cannot listen to the very large nexi of nerves in your gut and around your heart, you are lost in a sea of Words.
User avatar
Moreno
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10305
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:46 pm

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby volchok » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:15 am

Really, rationality is overrated ? Is that a fact ? If it isn't a fact then your position is completely nonsensical. If it is a fact, then you are betraying your own stance since believing and acting in accordance to the facts is the definition of being rational.

This childish self-refuting rants are honestly so tiring.
User avatar
volchok
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:42 pm
Location: Portugal.

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Moreno » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:23 am

volchok wrote:Really, rationality is overrated ? Is that a fact ? If it isn't a fact then your position is completely nonsensical.
No. It would be self contradicting or nonsensical if he said rationality was worthless. To say it is overrated entails that it has value. In fact he clearly Points ou that it has value.

If it is a fact, then you are betraying your own stance since believing and acting in accordance to the facts is the definition of being rational.

And he did not say that being rational is wrong, so he is not betraying his own stance. He is Writing about what he considers to be the overuse and misues of rationality. Nowhere does he say it should be eliminated or not used.

This childish self-refuting rants are honestly so tiring.
Back a day and already tired of them. There are simple solutions to this problem of yours. REading more carefully might help, but there are other more completely protective solutions.
User avatar
Moreno
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10305
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:46 pm

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Mr Reasonable » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:24 am

Volchock comprehension fail.

Did you just read the title of the thread and then type a response?

That's what it seems like.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 24563
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Dan~ » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:33 am

I read about half of it.
He's saying some people use our rationality against us, but personally I think that is difficult to do.
I like http://www.accuradio.com , internet radio.
https://dannerz.itch.io/ -- a new and minimal webside now hosting two of my free game projects.
User avatar
Dan~
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 9733
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:14 am
Location: May the loving spirit of papa hitler watch over and bless you all.

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Moreno » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:35 am

So Gib,
you mention situations where you Think one should step out of rationality - my wording. With politicians, for example. How does one decide to do this? Is it simply due to the category of the person talkign to you? Are their warning signals? How do you decide to step outside of rationality? Is it the last rational decision you make in that encounter? Do you get a gut feeling and stop listening in a rational way?
What happens?
User avatar
Moreno
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10305
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:46 pm

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Mr Reasonable » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:35 am

I dunno dan, you're a pretty smart guy. You don't think you could employ your mastery of rationality to your advantage over another person in a 1 to 1 negotiation?
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 24563
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Dan~ » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:40 am

mr reasonable wrote:I dunno dan, you're a pretty smart guy. You don't think you could employ your mastery of rationality to your advantage over another person in a 1 to 1 negotiation?

I think what Gib is describing, is similar to how someone can screw with you if you are too civilized, and you wont fight back or punish them as much as if you were not civilized. But we switch the word civilized with the word rational. Also being really rational can be similar to being naive, if you project it and think that everyone else and the world is rational. Then suddenly irrational stuff pops up and you don't expect it so you're less prepared. "Rational" is a form of ideals. It's a big ideal like wisdom. But it is christianized or derived from christian philosophy in some cases, so that peace seems rational, and war seems irrational. That's just one example. I think there is such a thing as pure rationality, which is not a form of morality or what have you, but, that is not common rationality.
I like http://www.accuradio.com , internet radio.
https://dannerz.itch.io/ -- a new and minimal webside now hosting two of my free game projects.
User avatar
Dan~
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 9733
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:14 am
Location: May the loving spirit of papa hitler watch over and bless you all.

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Mr Reasonable » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:46 am

When I think of reason, I think of just anyone saying anything to support anything they say and in that simply giving "a reason".

When I think of rationality, I think of a calculated, informed choice being made through an analyzation of the issue at hand, and the conclusion about the action to be taken as one which is a result of that analysation combined with a proper logical methodology.

If you ask, "why'd you rob that liquor store?" and I reply, "Because I wanted to.", Then I'm being reasonable.

If you ask, "why did you choose this tv instead of the other", I might say, "because it had more hdmi ports, and the cost was lower and the picture quality was higher than all of the other options in front of me when I analyzed the issue in question", then I"m being rational.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 24563
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Dan~ » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:54 am

Personally, I let my rationality battle my emotions and desires, and dominate them, and manipulate them, and control them. I figure it is the best choice. Your definition of rationality looks like it is sort of deviating away from the dictionaries.
I like http://www.accuradio.com , internet radio.
https://dannerz.itch.io/ -- a new and minimal webside now hosting two of my free game projects.
User avatar
Dan~
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 9733
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:14 am
Location: May the loving spirit of papa hitler watch over and bless you all.

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Mr Reasonable » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:08 am

It could be dan. I just think that a guy can be reasonable but not rational. There's a distinct line between them.

But you're right on with the old philosophical question, "should reason be the slave of passion, or vice versa?" I think it's a matter of preference. Some people like to scream and shout, and other people like to calculate the proper answer to the problem. I think when it comes to people who are able to calculate instead of scream and shout, that there's a risk that they may use this ability to their advantage at the expense of others.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 24563
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Dan~ » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:16 am

I think pleasure is far more over-rated than rationality. Who gives a poo about rationality? Who ponders it? But when it comes to pleasures, people need their fix, usually. Over-rating things is usually better than under-rating them, though. If I lived in a society where people wanted to be entirely reasonable, I think that would have more good than bad consequences.

http://biblehub.com/jeremiah/17-9.htm

I dislike how this sounds, but emotionalism has its evils. Then there is the phenom of love.
I don't know, would you rather be a chimp or a robot? We have poor options at times.
I like http://www.accuradio.com , internet radio.
https://dannerz.itch.io/ -- a new and minimal webside now hosting two of my free game projects.
User avatar
Dan~
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 9733
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:14 am
Location: May the loving spirit of papa hitler watch over and bless you all.

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Moreno » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:33 am

Dan~ wrote: Who gives a poo about rationality? Who ponders it?
To me these are two very different questions. Nearly everyone gives a poo about rationality. Note this does not mean they are good at being rational. But everyone argues, supports their arguments or Thinks they do, makes logic sounds ('and that's why' 'which clearly leads to' 'you can tell because'), and explains pretty much Everything from why Nike is better than Addidas, to why there is or isn't a God, to every political conclusion possible, to why they should get to stay up late to.............I mean Everything. Because, because, because of all of the wonderful things he does. They argue and convince themselves of all sorts of things too. There's that confused skeptical expression you can see on spouses', children's parent's, employers', employee's, voters', potential buyers' faces while they are under the waterfall of reasoning other people are aiming at them. Often they don't know why it is bullshit, but they know bullshit when they hear it. Or they don't and get suckered in.

Who ponders rationality? Now that is a small Group.
User avatar
Moreno
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10305
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:46 pm

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Moreno » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:34 am

Dan~ wrote:I don't know, would you rather be a chimp or a robot? We have poor options at times.
I have more in common with a chimp. And I mean that as a compliment to me.
User avatar
Moreno
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10305
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:46 pm

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Dan~ » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:52 am

Nearly everyone gives a poo about rationality.

Are you sure? How much do they care about it on the 1 to 10 ?
I like http://www.accuradio.com , internet radio.
https://dannerz.itch.io/ -- a new and minimal webside now hosting two of my free game projects.
User avatar
Dan~
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 9733
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:14 am
Location: May the loving spirit of papa hitler watch over and bless you all.

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby volchok » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:59 am

Moreno wrote: No. It would be self contradicting or nonsensical if he said rationality was worthless. To say it is overrated entails that it has value. In fact he clearly Points ou that it has value.


Clearly, it has enough value to be used as a mechanism for constructing arguments. Otherwise, he wouldn't have claimed that "Rationality IS overrated".
That assertion was uttered as a fact, and apparently we should act accordingly. In other words, his case amounts to the following: Let's be rational because rationality is overrated.
User avatar
volchok
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:42 pm
Location: Portugal.

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Moreno » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:28 am

Dan~ wrote:
Nearly everyone gives a poo about rationality.

Are you sure? How much do they care about it on the 1 to 10 ?
In the sense that they want to sound like their decisions, politics, tastes, and more are right and generally that other people are wrong, 10. Again, I am not saying they are good at it.
User avatar
Moreno
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10305
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:46 pm

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Moreno » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:31 am

volchok wrote:
Moreno wrote: No. It would be self contradicting or nonsensical if he said rationality was worthless. To say it is overrated entails that it has value. In fact he clearly Points ou that it has value.


Clearly, it has enough value to be used as a mechanism for constructing arguments. Otherwise, he wouldn't have claimed that "Rationality IS overrated".
That assertion was uttered as a fact,
Well, that what assertions are like.

and apparently we should act accordingly. In other words, his case amounts to the following: Let's be rational because rationality is overrated.

No, that's not what he is saying. Please actually read his OP and respond to that or find Another thread that you are interested enough in to read well. If you disagree with some of the Points he makes in the post, then explain what you Think is incorrect and why - and with quotes, since you seem to be responding to some other post.

And Volchok you were clearly wrong in your first post, since he makes statements that make very clear he is not ruling out rationality. Instead of admitting that you were wrong, you now try Another angle.
Last edited by Moreno on Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Moreno
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10305
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:46 pm

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Dan~ » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:34 am

If Vol didn't read the OP I will be depressed.
I like http://www.accuradio.com , internet radio.
https://dannerz.itch.io/ -- a new and minimal webside now hosting two of my free game projects.
User avatar
Dan~
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 9733
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:14 am
Location: May the loving spirit of papa hitler watch over and bless you all.

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Moreno » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:36 am

Dan~ wrote:If Vol didn't read the OP I will be depressed.
Well I hate to depress you but....

In the OP....
So is rationality overrated? You bet! Should we throw it out all together. Of course not, you idiot! It has it's place. Rationality is useful when used between people who are sincerely trying to cooperate together--those who intend to honor the implicit commitment they mutually share to arrive at a common goal--understanding, truth, problem solving, whatever it is


Volchok's response

Really, rationality is overrated ? Is that a fact ? If it isn't a fact then your position is completely nonsensical. If it is a fact, then you are betraying your own stance since believing and acting in accordance to the facts is the definition of being rational.


he seems to Think that since Gib is making assertions and arguments -iow being rational- the OP is nonsense. But Gib makes it clear he is talking about certain situations, and he makes this clear even Before the utterly clear part I quoted above.

If the thread was titled 'Rationality is worthless' and then went on to argue that idea, then Volchok's response would make sense.

Edit: ladyjane has done what Volchok is responding to, however, but not Gib.
User avatar
Moreno
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10305
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:46 pm

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Dan~ » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:49 am

Alright. I'll try to survive despite that.
edit: I also read the rest of the OP later after my first response.
I like http://www.accuradio.com , internet radio.
https://dannerz.itch.io/ -- a new and minimal webside now hosting two of my free game projects.
User avatar
Dan~
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 9733
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:14 am
Location: May the loving spirit of papa hitler watch over and bless you all.

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Moreno » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:24 am

Dan~ wrote:Alright. I'll try to survive despite that.
I have faith in you.
User avatar
Moreno
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10305
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:46 pm

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby gib » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:22 am

Yikes! 22 hits already. I must have caused a stir. :lol:

Well, let's begin...

volchok wrote:Really, rationality is overrated ? Is that a fact ? If it isn't a fact then your position is completely nonsensical.


Are you accusing me of being irrational?

volchok wrote:This childish self-refuting rants are honestly so tiring.


There's nothing childish about how the human brain naturally works. You think it's all just a big logic-chopping, reason-using, rationality-computing bundle of nerves? There's dreams, there's emotions, there's intuition, there's tastes and persuasions, there's even illogical thinking sometimes--they're all in their too, sharing the same room as the rational parts. If you're ashamed that this makes you human--if you think it's childish--then by all means, try your best to suppress those parts of yourself.

Moreno wrote:Nowhere does he say it should be eliminated or not used.


Yeah, v, remember I called you an idiot?

volchok wrote: Of course not, you idiot!


Moreno wrote: Do you get a gut feeling and stop listening in a rational way?


Something like that, but I wouldn't say one should stop listening in a rational way, but that one should stop cooperating--make no mistake, the decision to put on one's rationality cap is a decision--it's a decision that one is going to cooperate as a listener with the speaker. Sometimes I do this with trolls--when I start to sense they are trolling, I don't exactly stop paying attention to the reasoning in what their saying, but I switch gears and stop intending to respond back in an equally rational way. I sometime commit logical fallacies (knowingly) but in subtle enough ways that the troll won't notice, or I'll purposely misinterpret him--sometime enough so such that I can get his juices riled.

But then there's advertisers whom I can't do this with. In those cases, it's not really about being irrational, but not being a slave to their reasoning. I mean, if you take a minute out and try to sense other parts of your mind, parts that might be telling you "no, this is wrong" even though you can't quite figure out why, then all of a sudden, their reasoning has something to contend with in your mind, and you suddenly gain a certain measure of freedom. I find it's better to make decisions while in that state of mind--a freely thinking state--rather than in the state the advertiser (or politician, or preacher, etc.) is trying to put you in.

So to answer your question: it's when you bring together all parts of your mind--reason, intuition, emotion, selfish desires, lessons and teachings from those you trust, the advice of others you trust--that you know when to apply reason and when not. If you believe that you're just a crazy or stupid moron if you don't always think rationally, then you'll never know when not to use it, or when to use it for that matter.

volchok wrote:Clearly, it has enough value to be used as a mechanism for constructing arguments.


Yeeaaah...and?

volchok wrote:Otherwise, he wouldn't have claimed that "Rationality IS overrated".


Right, because if it can be used to construct arguments, then clearly it's always underrated.

volchok wrote:That assertion was uttered as a fact...


How do you know how I meant it?

volchok wrote:In other words, his case amounts to the following: Let's be rational because rationality is overrated.


Not quite, vol. It's more like: Let's not always be rational (as you're clearly exemplifying), because rationality is overrated.

Anyway, to everyone else: what it comes down to is this: are you slave to rationality or is it a slave to you? Either way, rationality is here to stay--we're not getting rid of it--in the first case, you are a tool to rationality, in the second, it is your tool.
My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
- surreptitious75

The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
- encode_decode
User avatar
gib
little shitheaded Buddha
 
Posts: 8341
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
Location: lost (don't try to find me)

Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby finishedman » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:27 am

gib wrote: Rationality is useful when used between people who are sincerely trying to cooperate together--those who intend to honor the implicit commitment they mutually share to arrive at a common goal--understanding, truth, problem solving, whatever it is ….


As long as results can be achieved then all that’s useful. Often, though, the starting point is on shaky ground already and not conducive to a rational relationship with understanding. I think the realm of human experiences has more than a few things to contribute to the indescribable and in these cases rationality loses its instrumentality. One might be labeled as loony due to his particular ascertained premise based on his own feelings – < these, seeming special and worth mentioning, can be misconstrued in the rational arena. Probably these unique experiences are best kept to themselves lest they be cast into the chasm of senselessness. Yet I suppose there are those who have the gift to explain even that which doesn’t conform to the usual type or expected pattern of rational and logical scrutiny. They kinda talk around it with a sense of reasonable style. I guess it’s like art in a way.
finishedman
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3177
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:32 am

Next

Return to Philosophy



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]