Rationality is overrated

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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Arminius » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:46 am

James S Saint wrote:Only irrational people separate their instincts and "gut feelings" from their rationale.

Unfortunately.
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Arminius » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:55 am

James S Saint wrote:
gib wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Only irrational people separate their instincts and "gut feelings" from their rationale.


Do you mean that if you integrate them, then it's still rational?

I mean that if you Don't integrate them, it is Irrational.

Exactly.

And you have to manage the integration rightly. 8)
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Some Guy in History » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:31 pm

I'm curious as to the rationality that supports the sentiment that rationality is overrated. Rationally, one can assume that irrationality is overrated if it can not irrationally rationalize itself.
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby gib » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:30 am

Some Guy in History wrote:I'm curious as to the rationality that supports the sentiment that rationality is overrated.


Look no further than the OP.
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
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The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby encode_decode » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:27 pm

Alf wrote:
Rationality is overrated

Rationality isn't overrated. Maybe it was overrated in the past.

Irrationality has more and more taken over.

I am thinking that perhaps, rationality is over the rating of some people . . .

. . . therefore overrated for those who are not rational.

To rate is to consider to be of a certain quality or standard.

Rationality can be rated as higher than its opposite IE irrationality.

Rationality is overrated in a world full of irrational people - perhaps always.
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby gib » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:40 pm

What I meant by rationality is overrated is that we seem to think that we have to be rational, that if we aren't that's something to be ashamed of. It's like we live in a culture where rationality rules over us rather than we ruling over our rationality (I wonder if this goes all the way back to the Greeks). I tried to argue in this thread that being irrational can have its advantages, and one should not be afraid to be irrational if it seems effective sometimes.
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
- surreptitious75

The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
- encode_decode
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:26 am

Gib wrote:
What I meant by rationality is overrated is that we seem to think that we have to be rational that if we are not that is something to be ashamed of. It is like we live in
a culture where rationality rules over us rather than we ruling over our rationality ( I wonder if this goes all the way back to the Greeks ) I tried to argue in this thread that being irrational can have its advantages and one should not be afraid to be irrational if it seems effective sometimes

It is irrational to think we should only be rational all the time because we are not machines but human beings
Furthermore there is nothing wrong with being irrational as long as it does not negatively impact upon anyone
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Only_Humean » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:58 am

It's a drive-by posting, but I thought perhaps OP might appreciate this:

https://medium.com/@alexanderdouglas/th ... 195ab1a5bc
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby James S Saint » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:23 pm

Only_Humean wrote:It's a drive-by posting, but I thought perhaps OP might appreciate this:

https://medium.com/@alexanderdouglas/th ... 195ab1a5bc

...^^ The liberal racist's view of rationality, "He is only trying to explain rationality because he is an insecure, untalented white male". :icon-rolleyes:
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
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You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:44 pm

One of the comments about this review:
This was a bit over-egged in its own savagery.
Yeah, really. The reviewer seems to have some personal issues spilling onto the page.

I'm now tempted to read the book just to see if it's that bad.
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby James S Saint » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:49 pm

gib wrote:What I meant by rationality is overrated is that we seem to think that we have to be rational that if we are not that is something to be ashamed of.

That is exactly the same as saying, "What I meant by health is overrated is that we seem to think that we have to be healthy, that if we aren't that's something to be ashamed of".

Of course, it might take an actual rational mind to see that.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:17 pm

It is irrational to think we should only be rational all the time because we are not machines but human beings
Furthermore there is nothing wrong with being irrational as long as it does not negatively impact upon anyone
The consequences of irrationality depend on the exact situation.

But those who praise irrationality tend to want to apply it in situations when when rationality is the preferred approach. And just by suggesting that there is a "preferred approach" is "forcing" rationality on them against their will.
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Arminius » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:08 pm

gib wrote:What I meant by rationality is overrated is that we seem to think that we have to be rational, that if we aren't that's something to be ashamed of. It's like we live in a culture where rationality rules over us rather than we ruling over our rationality (I wonder if this goes all the way back to the Greeks). I tried to argue in this thread that being irrational can have its advantages, and one should not be afraid to be irrational if it seems effective sometimes.

Please, give an example, Gib.
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby surreptitious75 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:39 pm

It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby Kathrina » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:06 pm

Irrationality is the absence of rationality.

If you are thinking in a wrong way, you aren't necessarily thinking in an irrational way.

So irrationality doesn't mean wrong thinking. It means "not thinking" but "bringing some instinctive or emotional drives into thinking".
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:11 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention

I agree. See...we can agree. :mrgreen:
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby gib » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:36 pm

James S Saint wrote:That is exactly the same as saying, "What I meant by health is overrated is that we seem to think that we have to be healthy, that if we aren't that's something to be ashamed of".

Of course, it might take an actual rational mind to see that.


Or someone stuck in a rationalist's frame of mind. Your analogy doesn't hold... at all. When is it ever to one's benefit to not be healthy?

Whereas striving for health is more or less synonymous with striving for survival, striving for rationality is not. 99% of animals on this planet survive quite well without a mechanism in their brain for "rational thinking". Most of the human brain helps us survive without having to constantly employ "rational thinking". 90% of the time, we are governed by instinct, intuition, emotion, fantasy, and a lot of irrational thinking--and for the most part it gets us by. I don't think we can say the same for being unhealthy.

Arminius wrote:Please, give an example, Gib.


Playing with your kids.

Kathrina wrote:So irrationality doesn't mean wrong thinking. It means "not thinking" but "bringing some instinctive or emotional drives into thinking".


And seeing as how 99% of animals throughout 99% of our collective evolutionary history have employed that approach, I'd say it can (sometimes) be effective.
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
- surreptitious75

The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
- encode_decode
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:53 pm

Funny, the way that people know what animals are thinking. :lol:
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Re: Rationality is overrated

Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:57 am

    I think there is more to it James

    James S Saint wrote:
    gib wrote:What I meant by rationality is overrated is that we seem to think that we have to be rational that if we are not that is something to be ashamed of.

    That is exactly the same as saying, "What I meant by health is overrated is that we seem to think that we have to be healthy, that if we aren't that's something to be ashamed of".

    Of course, it might take an actual rational mind to see that.

    To rate is to consider to be of a certain quality or standard. The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational.
    Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.

    Alf wrote:
    Rationality is overrated

    Rationality isn't overrated. Maybe it was overrated in the past.

    Irrationality has more and more taken over.

    I am thinking that perhaps, rationality is over the rating of some people . . .

    . . . therefore overrated for those who are not rational.

    To rate is to consider to be of a certain quality or standard.

    Rationality can be rated as higher than its opposite IE irrationality.

    Rationality is overrated in a world full of irrational people - perhaps always.
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    Re: Rationality is overrated

    Postby Arminius » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:50 am

    gib wrote:
    Arminius wrote:Please, give an example, Gib.


    Playing with your kids.

    You are not rational when you are playing with your kids?

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    Re: Rationality is overrated

    Postby gib » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:56 am

    phyllo wrote:Funny, the way that people know what animals are thinking. :lol:


    How much rational thinking do you think animals do, phyllo? (Besides humans).

    For what it's worth, being human myself, I can tell you (from first-hand introspective subjective experience) that rational thinking isn't the rule across the board for all animal intelligence.

    encode_decode wrote:The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational.


    ^ Wow, good enough for a quote! Mind if I quote you in my sig, encode?

    encode_decode wrote:Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.


    ^ This too. Is this another way of saying the same thing?

    encode_decode wrote:Rationality is overrated in a world full of irrational people - perhaps always.


    So if I am to translate this, you mean to say: rationality is deemed to be of a certain quality or standard in a world full of irrational people? And if it's overrated, that means its deemed to be such... in excess? Or perhaps deemed to be of a higher quality or standard than it really is? And why by irrational people in particular? Are you saying that the reason rationality is overrated is because the people doing the rating are irrational? That if they were more rational, then rationality would be rated more accurately?

    Must decode your encoding, encode. :lol:

    Arminius wrote:You are not rational when you are playing with your kids?


    No... I'm not... am I supposed to feel some kind of cognitive dissonance now? What do you imagine an ir/rational parent doing with their children?

    And while I'm at it, I think surreptitious deserves to be quoted for this:

    surreptitious75 wrote:It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
    Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention


    ^ So much wisdom packed into such simple words. If you're reading this surreptitious, mind if I quote you in my sig?
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    It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
    Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
    - surreptitious75

    The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
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    Re: Rationality is overrated

    Postby phyllo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:05 pm

    How much rational thinking do you think animals do, phyllo? (Besides humans).
    It's hard to say because we can't examine their thinking process. All we can do is look at their behavior and deduce how they may have arrived at it.
    So if one looks at some behaviors ... animals build shelters, the seek out food when hungry, they take steps to avoid predators ... those seem to be rational behaviors. Why are the thoughts which produced the behavior not called rational? Simply because they are classified as "instinctive" behaviors and therefore we are saying that they required no thought. I'm not sure if that logic is legitimate.

    If you look at Zen, there is a concept of "no-mind". Once you free yourself of illusions of life and dualistic thinking, you will be able to "see" clearly and respond appropriately in every situation. It seem possible to call this "instinctive". But the person in this state is not emotional or irrational. He is fully integrated with his environment. That could be called the most rational state.

    So perhaps, animals are also fully integrated into their environments and acting more rationally than humans ... and consequently thinking more rationally than humans.
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    Re: Rationality is overrated

    Postby Alf » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:48 pm

    gib wrote:
    Arminius wrote:Please, give an example, Gib.


    Playing with your kids.

    You are playing with Arminius' kids?

    Arminius wrote:
    gib wrote:
    Arminius wrote:Please, give an example, Gib.


    Playing with your kids.

    You are not rational when you are playing with your kids?

    :lol:

    He is playing without using his brain - with your kids, Arminius. :shock:
    Last edited by Alf on Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: Rationality is overrated

    Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:19 pm

    If you look at Zen, there is a concept of "no-mind". Once you free yourself of illusions of life and dualistic thinking, you will be able to "see" clearly and respond appropriately in every situation. It seem possible to call this "instinctive". But the person in this state is not emotional or irrational. He is fully integrated with his environment. That could be called the most rational state.


    Meditation is a right-brained activity. Thinking is left-brained. The state of "no-mind" makes you calm, better focused, but not necessarily rational. Unless emotional stability is what you mean by being rational. Which I don't think it's what it means to be rational. Rationality has to do with the degree to which your decisions are informed (by evidence, facts, etc.) You can be perfectly calm and still be delusional (e.g. you can believe in the existence of God.)
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    Re: Rationality is overrated

    Postby gib » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:10 pm

    phyllo wrote:
    How much rational thinking do you think animals do, phyllo? (Besides humans).
    It's hard to say because we can't examine their thinking process. All we can do is look at their behavior and deduce how they may have arrived at it.
    So if one looks at some behaviors ... animals build shelters, the seek out food when hungry, they take steps to avoid predators ... those seem to be rational behaviors. Why are the thoughts which produced the behavior not called rational? Simply because they are classified as "instinctive" behaviors and therefore we are saying that they required no thought. I'm not sure if that logic is legitimate.

    If you look at Zen, there is a concept of "no-mind". Once you free yourself of illusions of life and dualistic thinking, you will be able to "see" clearly and respond appropriately in every situation. It seem possible to call this "instinctive". But the person in this state is not emotional or irrational. He is fully integrated with his environment. That could be called the most rational state.

    So perhaps, animals are also fully integrated into their environments and acting more rationally than humans ... and consequently thinking more rationally than humans.


    The problem with this discussion is that we are not being consistent with out definition of "rational". Most of the time, when someone here on ILP is charged with being irrational, it means the person is not sticking to logic or reason according to the one bringing up the charge. But then if an animal eats because it is hungry, and we call that rational, we are suddenly switching to another definition. <-- In this case, it means something like: doing what an organism must do to survive. Or perhaps: doing what anyone else would do if they were in that situation. Or maybe: doing whatever fulfills a desire. That has nothing to do with thinking with proper logic or using proper reasoning. Almost any kind of behavior could be considered rational in that case, any state of mind. The dog, when he is hungry, eats because of an urge, a drive. He doesn't need to think in his head first: "Hmm, I have these urges to consume food. Now, usually, in the past, whenever I've had these urges, I would eat and they would be satisfied. Therefore, it seems rational that this is what I should do in this case. Okay, I'll do it."

    In this thread, I'm sticking to a particular definition of rationality: the application of well-formed logic and reasoning in one's thoughts. The move from this to that of: "animals seem to do whatever's conducive to survival or to satisfy their urges" is cheating in my books. It's a switch from one definition to another so as to obfuscate examples of how irrationality (or should I say non-rationality?) can sometimes be effective in surviving or getting what you want.
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    It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
    Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
    - surreptitious75

    The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
    - encode_decode
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