The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

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The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Eternal Savagery » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:33 am

Is it not the most profound question of all? The cosmic question mark that the mystics and philosophers so desperately desire. People, usually, resort to two extremes on this topic. On one side of the camp, you have the fundamentalist theists who claim that the meaning of life is to know God. And on the other side, you have the atheistic/materialists who claim that there is no universal purpose to life - that everything is meaningless - that the universe is just some freak accident, etc.

But both of these camps are wrong. I will give my honest viewpoint on the matter without trying to sound overly simplistic on such a profound topic.

Let me just clarify that I am neither a theist nor a conventional atheist ( materialistic ).

I am an atheist, but I don't subscribe to materialism or pure physicalism. I will go into depth on my position in this regard in another posting.

To stay more on point, I will make the claim that there is, indeed, a universal or fundamental purpose or telos of existence. This telos does NOT emanate from some other worldly, magical realm of angels and unicorns. This telos is one with this world - this universe. You ask: " So what is the purpose? Tell me already!". I know, I know. Enough with the foreplay...

My answer is in no shape or form original to me, but to spell it out simply, the purpose of existence is the will to power.

If you are familiar with Friedrich Nietzsche, then you should know what the nature of this will to power is, but if not, I will try to sum it up for you. The will to power is seen in everything. Starting from the inorganic, it is seen via gravity; systems of energy/matter use force ( gravity ) to attract other forces ( weaker ones ) to their own systems so that it may become a part of them. In time, these systems become more massive, transcending their former state. In the organic ( life ), the will to power becomes special, more complex. In plants, the will to power is seen in how it extracts energy from the soil and sunlight so that it may grow - so that it may develop and become more grand. In animals, the will to power is seen in dominance hierarchies and ruthless combat in order to dominate the territory. In humans, the will to power is seen in social hierarchies. Most people strive to obtain this power through work in exchange for money. This money, if accumulated and invested in wisely, will assists in their ascent of the social ladder. It's safe to say that most people want to be rich, yes? This is because richness will give them power - power for attracting mates, power to survive ( food- water ), power to manipulate others, power to give their offspring a greater survival edge, etc. Even in the act of consumption ( eating and drinking ) the will to power is seen. When you consume sustenance, you are extracting energy from other sources ( like the tree ). This energy is subsumed in your organic system ( body ) and it gives power to your system ( vitality ). Everything is seeking to grow, expand, develop, and dominate.

I'm not sure how people have managed to overlook this. It's right in our faces on a daily basis, yet people are so blind to it. Maybe it is due to the theist vs atheist dichotomies muddling up people's minds.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Dan~ » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:16 am

I'm not sure how people have managed to overlook this. It's right in our faces on a daily basis, yet people are so blind to it. Maybe it is due to the theist vs atheist dichotomies muddling up people's minds.

We could interpret life as will to power, but isn't that a simplification? If everything was will to power, the universe would be a single all powerful clump. Also the laws of physics would be in constant change, not static.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Eternal Savagery » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:22 am

Nothing is ever static; all is in flux - even the laws of physics. We may not be able to notice the subtle changes, but they are happening.
“Don't shrink from nature's brutal perfection. Take joy in it. Embrace it. Understand it and revel in it. Respect its strength, its wisdom, its brutality and its all-encompassing power. The highest law has always been, and shall be, nature; and the greatest wisdom forever lives in and through nature's eternal Fascism.”
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Moreno » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:36 am

Dan~ wrote:
I'm not sure how people have managed to overlook this. It's right in our faces on a daily basis, yet people are so blind to it. Maybe it is due to the theist vs atheist dichotomies muddling up people's minds.

We could interpret life as will to power, but isn't that a simplification? If everything was will to power, the universe would be a single all powerful clump. Also the laws of physics would be in constant change, not static.

Actually evidence is gathering that the laws of physics do change, and not just way back in the Big Bang. The Platonists are a bit on the defensive.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Orbie » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:39 am

Dan~ wrote:
I'm not sure how people have managed to overlook this. It's right in our faces on a daily basis, yet people are so blind to it. Maybe it is due to the theist vs atheist dichotomies muddling up people's minds.




We could interpret life as will to power, but isn't that an oversimplification ? If everything was will to power, the universe would be a single all powerful clump. Also the laws of physics would be in constant change, not static.




Life a single clump of power? No way. Most probably it's a potential power driven by vibrations on the most basic evel. The whole world resonates or disonates sort of like a giant magnetic field, transformed by alternate poles. The amount of energy generated this way could be monumental.
However it's probably not clumped. It's dispersed throughtout with various concentrations of energy.

The will presribes the ultimate centrifuge, where all energy is centered and increased mega exponentionally. It approaches singularity, but is prevented. Latest studies confirm this. It's pushed back in the form of primal substance. And everything is put back together a zillion times, and eactly the same way, because if not, it could not have been constructed THAT way in the first place. Construction is of very many points of view of a lot of dimensions. It cannot be a lineral construct, the variables need to be built in functionally, harmonically.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Dan~ » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:39 am

You have said what you've said in your replies, but I still believe will to power: universalized, is over simplification.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Eternal Savagery » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:44 am

Dan~ wrote:You have said what you've said in your replies, but I still believe will to power: universalized, is over simplification.



How so?

I don't mean to say that all aspects of the universe are really one singular clump. The universe is multiplicity, but there is a universal striving for appropriating energy, all existence strives for that.
“Don't shrink from nature's brutal perfection. Take joy in it. Embrace it. Understand it and revel in it. Respect its strength, its wisdom, its brutality and its all-encompassing power. The highest law has always been, and shall be, nature; and the greatest wisdom forever lives in and through nature's eternal Fascism.”
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Moreno » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:00 am

Dan~ wrote:You have said what you've said in your replies, but I still believe will to power: universalized, is over simplification.
I agree with that part, Dan.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Eternal Savagery » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:10 am

How is it an over-simplification? Elaborate, please.
“Don't shrink from nature's brutal perfection. Take joy in it. Embrace it. Understand it and revel in it. Respect its strength, its wisdom, its brutality and its all-encompassing power. The highest law has always been, and shall be, nature; and the greatest wisdom forever lives in and through nature's eternal Fascism.”
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Stuart » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:28 am

Wtp as the basis for existence is fine, I won't argue, but there's no reason to push the issue or obsess with it. I consider the power in wtp more relevant than the will being that I already have all the will I could ever want, and far, far more. I'll say this with sincerity, knowing where you come from and where you're likely going; worrying about the wtp of animals will not help you achieve more power. While you're wasting time worrying about competing for "power" with animals, others are leaving you behind as they pursue relevant power; many of them have already moved beyond thinking in terms of power relations between most people, let alone animals.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Helandhighwater » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:49 am

Shit happens and then you die, wtp, not remotely going to explain why as already said, and thus already dismissed, telos? I don't think there is any philosophy that really explains what it means to exist or a reason you do. You do though, you will though.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby MechanicalMonster » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:49 am

The telos of existence is whatever YOUR telos is. Existence always means YOUR existence, or someone else in which case you speak about THEIR telos.

"Existence" itself has no purpose, how could it? Purpose is a function of entities constructed with aims, needs, consciousness, experience. Existence as such has no aims, no needs, no consciousness and no experience.

And every such being will have a somewhat different purpose and need than others, because once entities become complex enough where we may even speak of their having telos they also attain the ability and depth of experience, novel processing and memory to in effect constitute a universe unto themselves. Chaos theory is sufficient to demonstrate the impossibility of a universal telos.

Will to power is part of the structure of such beings, because all beings emerge from natural selection. But it is false to equate this with the telos of a being, because purpose lives above the level of derivatives of power, it is very much "self-contained", self-justifying and Gestalt-like.

To correct the thesis, it would instead be correct to say: telos exists because beings for whom telos may be said to be possible exist; will to power is the behest of the history of a being's necessity in terms of form, but not in terms of content.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Stuart » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:03 am

MM, well said. Though you'd have no idea how many times PR, where he comes from, has read posts that are virtually the equivalent as the above. I recall Tyrannus' criticism that you over complicate matters. I don't think you necessarily do, but there is a time for simplicity as well as complexity. I don't think it's a strength of yours to know when to use what type of language.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Moreno » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:06 am

MechanicalMonster wrote:The telos of existence is whatever YOUR telos is. Existence always means YOUR existence, or someone else in which case you speak about THEIR telos.

"Existence" itself has no purpose, how could it? Purpose is a function of entities constructed with aims, needs, consciousness, experience. Existence as such has no aims, no needs, no consciousness and no experience.
So in the existence that does not have aims, needs, consciousness, etc., we have simple and complicated processes moving from one utterly determined state to Another. Of course this would also be true for entities where those nouns - needs, consciousness, experience, aims - have the kind of qualia so it seems like there are several paths to take, when in fact there is only one. The will to Power is not non-existent, it's just like anyother inevitable physical domino effect, like water moving downhill. From the inside it seems like choices are made and might have beens had some quasi existence, when in fact it was just complicated water moving down hill. Unless one Believes in a non-compatibalist free will, but then one has one's work cut out explaining what that is. But like water running downhill, some batches gather up leaves. Water has as much telos as any other matter, though it is less likely to brag about it.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby MechanicalMonster » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:30 am

Stuartp523 wrote:MM, well said. Though you'd have no idea how many times PR, where he comes from, has read posts that are virtually the equivalent as the above. I recall Tyrannus' criticism that you over complicate matters. I don't think you necessarily do, but there is a time for simplicity as well as complexity. I don't think it's a strength of yours to know when to use what type of language.


I don't write for people who need to have what they read match the narrow constraints of their effortless understanding.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby MechanicalMonster » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:30 am

Also I don't know what "PR" means.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby MechanicalMonster » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:40 am

Moreno wrote:
MechanicalMonster wrote:The telos of existence is whatever YOUR telos is. Existence always means YOUR existence, or someone else in which case you speak about THEIR telos.

"Existence" itself has no purpose, how could it? Purpose is a function of entities constructed with aims, needs, consciousness, experience. Existence as such has no aims, no needs, no consciousness and no experience.
So in the existence that does not have aims, needs, consciousness, etc., we have simple and complicated processes moving from one utterly determined state to Another. Of course this would also be true for entities where those nouns - needs, consciousness, experience, aims - have the kind of qualia so it seems like there are several paths to take, when in fact there is only one. The will to Power is not non-existent, it's just like anyother inevitable physical domino effect, like water moving downhill. From the inside it seems like choices are made and might have beens had some quasi existence, when in fact it was just complicated water moving down hill. Unless one Believes in a non-compatibalist free will, but then one has one's work cut out explaining what that is. But like water running downhill, some batches gather up leaves. Water has as much telos as any other matter, though it is less likely to brag about it.


Free will and determinism mean the same thing.

And you missed what I said about purpose living above the derivations of "power". Water has very little about it that may possibly constitute such a dimension, but not so for consciousness.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Stuart » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:52 am

MechanicalMonster wrote:Also I don't know what "PR" means.


I meant ES.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby gib » Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:33 am

Eternal Savagery wrote:Is it not the most profound question of all? The cosmic question mark that the mystics and philosophers so desperately desire. People, usually, resort to two extremes on this topic. On one side of the camp, you have the fundamentalist theists who claim that the meaning of life is to know God. And on the other side, you have the atheistic/materialists who claim that there is no universal purpose to life - that everything is meaningless - that the universe is just some freak accident, etc.

But both of these camps are wrong. I will give my honest viewpoint on the matter without trying to sound overly simplistic on such a profound topic.

Let me just clarify that I am neither a theist nor a conventional atheist ( materialistic ).

I am an atheist, but I don't subscribe to materialism or pure physicalism. I will go into depth on my position in this regard in another posting.

To stay more on point, I will make the claim that there is, indeed, a universal or fundamental purpose or telos of existence. This telos does NOT emanate from some other worldly, magical realm of angels and unicorns. This telos is one with this world - this universe. You ask: " So what is the purpose? Tell me already!". I know, I know. Enough with the foreplay...

My answer is in no shape or form original to me, but to spell it out simply, the purpose of existence is the will to power.


Interesting. I had a thread similar to this (here) in which I questioned whether Niezsche's WTP made him a panpsychic (or pantheist?). Questioning whether Nieztsche was a teleologist is an interesting twist on that very question, and I think it hits closer to home (Nietzsche's home, that is).

Eternal Savagery wrote:I'm not sure how people have managed to overlook this. It's right in our faces on a daily basis, yet people are so blind to it. Maybe it is due to the theist vs atheist dichotomies muddling up people's minds.


I think you're right. This Nietzschian teleology is (could we say?) midway between the extreme theist view of a detached, personal, objectively real God overseeing the world and a godless, purposeless, mechanical universe that somehow sustains its own existence. I think the fact that we have this duality, this schism between religion and science, is what blinds us to this midway view (or at least what prevents it from showing up on our radar period--I mean, if it isn't obvious, it should at least have occurred to one or two of us at some point in our lives).

Dan~ wrote:We could interpret life as will to power, but isn't that a simplification? If everything was will to power, the universe would be a single all powerful clump.


In a matter of speaking, it is--at least according to my crazy views. I believe in a concept I call "equivalence". To use a metaphore, equivalence is like an equation: 1 = .5 + .5 (or .2 + .8, or .1 + .75 + .15, or 4 - 3, or whatever). 1 is the clump. How that clump is divided up--whether it's .5 + .5, or .2 + .8, or .1 + .75 + .15, or 4 - 3, or whatever--is a matter of the configuration (or the quality, or the "type") of consciousness perceiving it. But to be fair, I wouldn't exactly call this clump the "will to power"--that title can only go to pieces of the whole, to particulars--rather I would call it the "will to existence" (the ultimate will in my opinion).

MechanicalMonster wrote:Also I don't know what "PR" means.


I think it's a who. And I too would like to know who that is.

Stuart523 wrote:I meant ES.


Oh... uh... I still don't get it.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Stuart » Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:19 am

G, ES is PR, I thought MM knew that.

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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby gib » Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:41 am

Stuartp523 wrote:G, ES is PR, I thought MM knew that.

S


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... 8-[

Just kidding... Anyways, yeah, I got that ES = PR, but who is PR?
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Stuart » Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:07 pm

PR is an N at KTS who came here as ES.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Only_Humean » Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:27 pm

Something that explains everything explains nothing.
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby Eternal Savagery » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:01 pm

To Gib ( The professional illogician ),

Nietzsche was a sort of pan-experientialist. To him, all systems have a subjective element which strives to accumulate more energy. Check out this well-done video on the topic:

“Don't shrink from nature's brutal perfection. Take joy in it. Embrace it. Understand it and revel in it. Respect its strength, its wisdom, its brutality and its all-encompassing power. The highest law has always been, and shall be, nature; and the greatest wisdom forever lives in and through nature's eternal Fascism.”
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Re: The Fundamental Telos of Existence.

Postby gib » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:20 pm

Stuartp523 wrote:PR is an N at KTS who came here as ES.


Ah, no wondering I don't know him.

ES,

Excellent video.
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