At what level does life actually begin?

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Re: At what level does life actually begin?

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:42 pm

Mithus wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:The anentropic shell is the heart of the self-harmony and it is what causes affectance.

I don't think James would agree to that.
He changed the term "anentropic shell" later into "anentropic shelter", the cause, why the particle remains a particle, reluctant to ever be anything different than it is – an Affectance pile-up.


Yes, James will absolutely disagree.
Ive been discussing such matters with him since early 2010.
It so happens that I just found a way of formulating with the terms he gives so as for it to make sense to me.

After all, only an affectance-infinitesimals equivalent of a particles anentropic shell could account for its affecting anything. How can it affect if it has no resistance to falling apart? It cant, logically it just can not affect without resisting, and it can't resist without an anentropic quality to it.

To put it bluntly, affectance, resistance and anentropy are identical concepts, or three words for the same concept.
In the last words of that video thumbnail, you see that eventually the conclusion must be one of self-valuing; supporting that which supports you - James included this more than 5 years after I explained this with far more clarity and depth through self-valuing logic. The ancient hindus understood this mutually supportive aspect of the concept as dharma, a positive aggregate of rta.

These arent new concepts, it is being itself, every culture has an understanding of it. Ours is Nietzsche's retracing of the Presocratics, amounting through among others Heidegger, Camus, even Lacan and Deleuze, and through rejecting the mistakes of Russell, Wittgenstein, Hume, Kant and Plato, in the understanding of the law of valuing. "love is the law, love under will" means valuing is the law, value under self-valuing.

It's analytically unusually technical, as well as psychologically unusually immersive. It's not possible to understand being without being entirely involved in ones own proper being. One can't philosophize from the bleachers, philosophy happens on the field.
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Re: At what level does life actually begin?

Postby Gloominary » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:04 pm

Are planets alive? They grow by consuming rocks from outer space. They reproduce when asteroids collide with them, sending pieces of planet flying into outer space, pieces which might end up being the beginnings of a new planet, or which might end up being food for existing planets. They adapt to their environment, like how the earth found a stable orbit round the sun.
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Re: At what level does life actually begin?

Postby encode_decode » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:58 pm

Gloominary wrote:Are planets alive? They grow by consuming rocks from outer space. They reproduce when asteroids collide with them, sending pieces of planet flying into outer space, pieces which might end up being the beginnings of a new planet, or which might end up being food for existing planets. They adapt to their environment, like how the earth found a stable orbit round the sun.

I would say that our planet is alive.

:wink:
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    Re: At what level does life actually begin?

    Postby Serendipper » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:41 pm

    Gloominary wrote:Are planets alive?

    Yes, because if they are not then we're left with the question of how life comes from planets and it's just pushing the problem further a step.

    Planets are made of atoms heavier than H and every single one in the universe came from the death of stars. When stars die, their remains coalesce into rocks which assemble into planets. So, we could say that stars engender rocks or that rocks "eat" stars, because "we are what we eat".

    Rocks engender plants because the next logical step is the use of photosythesis, so then plants engender animals since the animate is codependent to the inanimate (animals take advantage that plants can't run). Then we could say that animals eat plants which eat rocks which eat stars which eat gas which eats subatomic particles which eat the field of energy we call spacetime, Higgs field, gluon field, whatever...

    What is the mechanism to explain how the plus charge knows or is aware of the presence of the minus charge? How is that information communicated? On what medium does the information travel?

    For instance, we could theorize that mass attracts space and so another particle with mass is simply going along for the ride inside the space or field that is being attracted, so the particles move toward each other, but why does a plus charge move toward a minus charge? Obviously they are aware of each other, but how? And, more importantly, how is that awareness different from our awareness?

    Our awareness is simply more +/- because vision is the detection of electromagnetic waves that are produced from oscillating charge and received in the same fashion. Then all sense-perception and neurochemistry is electric, which is more +/-. Fundamentally, we are +/-, so how is our awareness different than the sum of its parts? Well, it's just a matter of degrees, levels, gradations.

    It seems to me that drawing a distinction between life and nonlife necessitates the introduction of magic to cross the bridge, as in some "property" that would have to be "bestowed" and it's that which we call "life". Therefore, it's a waste of time to try to discover what we've merely defined to exist. Either all is alive or all is dead (mechanized), depending how you choose to look at it. To have your cake and eat it too requires a supernatural power (something that isn't natural to the universe).
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    Re: At what level does life actually begin?

    Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:21 am

    I bet the atmospheric layering of Saturn, especially its Hexagonic North Pole, is a locus of much procreativity, of which life is a type.
    It seems to be a matter of resources, mobility and lightning.

    Jupiter, I assume, is full of such forms of which life is one. And a shitload of moons to move the currents around and gently stir the soup, or storm in this case.
    The cosmos is highly economic. Its phenomena are rarely exceptions, but that isn't to say they don't sense themselves alone. We do not share the senses of Jupterites
    taste, vision and sound yes, both apply in a gaseous pressure system, but touch, smell work differently. They'd be more united. There would a proper sense for pressure as well, I imagine. Maybe it is better to think of transformative apparatuses than of senses.

    I just figure this because life takes hold under pretty difficult situations on Earth, as a result of which it has become so beautiful and strong, as to even become master of the planet, almost. I don't see that happening in Jupiter. Maybe thats whats going on anyway. But the bigger point is that we need to evolve to be as tough and beautiful as to be abel to live on Venus. It has both a hard surface with fluids, and an atmosphere rich in nutrients. If thats your thing, anyway. I don't think there is as yet lifelike procreativity on Venus, I think it would be radical and very awesome and we would have noticed it. Life on Mars doesn't make sense. Life in Mars does, in a problematic way. The universe is perfectly economic in making use of the possibility of moving itself around.

    An then again maybe there is only life and lifelike procreativity on the Earth. It is surely the only type that matters to us. Earth First. How did it occur, life on Earth? Luck, which is necessity. We are the dice, God created the universe so he could play dice. Fool himself into thinking.

    Perhaps thought is a condition of being of which life is but a form. That would explain the philosopher.

    Since a self valuing can not stand alone, to have a self means to share a great balance with the cosmos. One can only uphold the balance, or tao, by being proper to oneself. This means to know who is proper to oneself and to whom one is proper, or can be.

    Therefore life consists of two main lines: the searches for what is proper to oneself, and for who is proper to that. The quality of life is determined by the degree of accurate knowledge here. Ethics is the game with the dissonance of never having a perfect state, and because we've formulated it as a game that allows us to "win", there is smoothness, philosophy, and the possibility of happiness, which is very rare phenomenon among humans, absent in many animals but common to quite a lot too, and abundant in flowers. Though there is terrible pain in some.

    What we know of ourselves is only vanity. What we know of others can be quite meaningful to ourselves granted that we don't think so, or at least aren't aware.

    Zen is the art of staring at a wall and liking it.
    Why does one like it though? Because the basic condition of life, the certainty of uncertainty, is unobstructed by apparent certainties that cause dread because of their true uncertain nature shining through as death. Most humans live to remain as little conscious of this pale shine. Sages and Warriors see that the pale light is only a veil.  What the coward perceives as death is really himself.

    Existence is maintained through thresholds. The Pathos of Distance.
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    Re: At what level does life actually begin?

    Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:25 am

    Since a self valuing can't stand alone and thus whatever world we speak of is "one" and "united", it is quite inevitable that there are gods, in the sense that solar systems and galaxies are likely to be quite "sentient" if not something more focused even. It is simply not viable for there to be so much inefficiency as for such great dynamic systems to not amount in consistent self-reflection on some millions of levels at once in the same time and place, which is all that consciousness is.

    What we call ethics are the minor frictions in the path, and how we respond to these is called intelligence and stupidity now, goodness and malice then, and cursed and hailed as if it is all there is, whereas what we are is all that is really going on, we are already going to respond in one of several ways, and improving these known ways of responding is what we do when we hone our character, when we exist, or that is what people used to do. Now, it seems the machines have become the more meaningful entities simply because of their greater complexity. Most simple modern humans are already the functions of the greater brains that are the the chips and wires and banks that constitute the internet. Its glaringly obvious too. The worst statement I could make is that one apparently needs to become an internet philosopher to remain independent and free. Entity online is required, and it is a very complicated thing to attain and maintain self-determination online, to be an actual entity. Weird. Because you'd normally say people are more happy who don't have to deal with that sort of thing, but the truth is they're not. They feel backward and they are because life goes on very fast up here.
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    Re: At what level does life actually begin?

    Postby encode_decode » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:30 am

    The internet.

    Well I think it is the place for minds to be at the moment and some of our greatest achievements will happen because of the internet,
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      Re: At what level does life actually begin?

      Postby WendyDarling » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:54 am

      The balanced life is still being redefined between online and offline activities. Naturally, such balance depends on the individuals perceived reality in relation to their perceived successes on and offline. Highly social, average folks seem to be one of the two majority crowds and the other major crowd tends to be made up of the deeper thinkers who incorporate the internet into their more technical projects and thought processes.
      I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

      I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

      Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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      Re: At what level does life actually begin?

      Postby encode_decode » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:56 am

      WendyDarling wrote:The balanced life is still being redefined between online and offline activities. Naturally, such balance depends on the individuals perceived reality in relation to their perceived successes on and offline. Highly social, average folks seem to be one of the two majority crowds and the other major crowd tends to be made up of the deeper thinkers who incorporate the internet into their more technical projects and thought processes.

      Well, I totally agree. Can I steal what you have written here?
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        Re: At what level does life actually begin?

        Postby WendyDarling » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:02 am

        No. :evilfun:
        I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

        I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

        Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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        Re: At what level does life actually begin?

        Postby encode_decode » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:04 am

        WendyDarling wrote:No. :evilfun:

        OK :lol:
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          Re: At what level does life actually begin?

          Postby Serendipper » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:22 am

          Fixed Cross wrote:I just figure this because life takes hold under pretty difficult situations on Earth,

          Life exists deep in the earth living off the energy supplied by radioactive elements. https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... y-the-sun/

          Show me a place where life does not exist and I'll show you a place that hasn't been examined thoroughly ;)

          FWD to 27:17

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          Re: At what level does life actually begin?

          Postby Serendipper » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:41 am

          WendyDarling wrote:The balanced life is still being redefined between online and offline activities. Naturally, such balance depends on the individuals perceived reality in relation to their perceived successes on and offline. Highly social, average folks seem to be one of the two majority crowds and the other major crowd tends to be made up of the deeper thinkers who incorporate the internet into their more technical projects and thought processes.

          “The act of writing is the act of discovering what you believe.” - David Hare :techie-typing:

          The internet is trial by fire.
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          Re: At what level does life actually begin?

          Postby Serendipper » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:14 am

          Fixed Cross wrote:Zen is the art of staring at a wall and liking it.

          Why does one like it though? Because the basic condition of life, the certainty of uncertainty, is unobstructed by apparent certainties that cause dread because of their true uncertain nature shining through as death. Most humans live to remain as little conscious of this pale shine. Sages and Warriors see that the pale light is only a veil.  What the coward perceives as death is really himself.


          The warriors are the most fearful among us. If you are a brave warrior who does not fear death, then why be a warrior?

          See page 64-65 here: https://books.google.com/books?id=y8jLZ ... nd&f=false

          It's not that one likes staring at a wall, but it's the realization that there is no one staring at the wall. There is no one to kill, no reason to fight and therefore no reason to be a warrior or sage because there is nothing to know and no one to know it.

          If you identify with the whole universe, then when the reaper comes, there is no one to kill.

          "You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you." - Eric Hoffer
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          Re: At what level does life actually begin?

          Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:43 pm

          encode_decode wrote:The internet.

          Well I think it is the place for minds to be at the moment and some of our greatest achievements will happen because of the internet,


          True but also some of our worse.
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          The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.


          “We love repose of mind so well, that we are arrested by anything which has even the appearance of truth; and so we fall asleep on clouds.”


          You have to be like the pebble in the stream, keeping the grain and rolling along without being dissolved or dissolving anything else.
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          Re: At what level does life actually begin?

          Postby encode_decode » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:43 pm

          Arcturus Descending wrote:True but also some of our worse.
          A hammer in the hand of an individual may either build a home or murder another.

          That is quite possible - I have seen some evidence of this already. I also still think it is early days.
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            It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
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            Re: At what level does life actually begin?

            Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:37 pm

            Actually begin? I would say at the level where one wakes up and smells the coffee MMM and makes the conscious choice to LIVE instead of simply EXIST, to participate instead of sitting on the sidelines.

            Just another slant on the question.
            Joseph Joubert ~~

            It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.


            The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.


            “We love repose of mind so well, that we are arrested by anything which has even the appearance of truth; and so we fall asleep on clouds.”


            You have to be like the pebble in the stream, keeping the grain and rolling along without being dissolved or dissolving anything else.
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