Wikipedia Jainism and High School Parmenides

[FilmSnob]

It seems that among the older religions, like Jainism, the norm was to establish a text containing "the truth about the universe," "what you can look forward to," and "how to go about it."

The part that philosophy is concerned with is "the truth about the universe." What better evidence than the first ancient Greek to be considered a philosopher with a surviving work: only the "truth about the universe" part was left. "What you can look forward to" was covered by popular worship of Zeus et al. and "how to go about it" is missing. The Greek in question was Parmenides, who so eloquently explained how that which is, is, and that which is not, is not (thus what is cannot not be and what is not cannot be).

Jainism covers a more psychological angle, but I think this is a pretty good case for original religions to be naturally occuring phenomena in certain cultural conditions that are able to adapt to changing conditions.

In other words, there will always be a guy with the intention and the know-how to get you to join a cult.

[Contra-Nietzsche]

I think Thales is pretty damn psychological in his orientation. His assumptions of water are aligned with mystic-water myths of mesopotamia. This is the basis of later religions use of water in Christianity, Mesopotamian era proto hermeticism, the Mandaeans and Islam. It predates the platonic concept of the soul, and is in many ways congruent to later concepts of airy emptiness. You only need to look at the chemical morphological symbolism water took later on in India to grasp the depths the ancient world considered it in its alchemical transmutations. Its both quite modern and secular in outlook, as well as imaginitive and spiritual, giving names to experiences and assumptions they didnt other wise know how to express. Thales was the first to combine the 'mes' of thinking with its metaphysical realities. However, I dont see too much originality in his thinking. The analytic assumptions diverged from his dialectic awareness, before this era in world mythology, from india to greece, the analytic was as much a former as a destroyer of the dialectic process. It produced the Muses after all. Dialectics until the 19th century didnt regain even this primitive awareness of the interchangability. Nietzsche was dimly aware, the Marxist is trapped in a analytic method, uncertain of which aspect of though dominated the other..... the persona of the dialectician, or the impersonal scientific method.

Everyone tries to be witty when it comes to science and dialectics, and think they are removed and in control of its idealized means. Even Thales. Interesting how for so long in human history prior we were uninterested in this phenomena of consciousness outside of templar worship. The Goddess' silver, the ziggurat and the removed fortress taught us much. Thales civilization was the byproduct of this evolution.

[FilmSnob]

Indubitably, presumption is a big part of any modern mentality (I think this is a big reason the Muslims hate us).

It is the fault of the philosophers, who thought we would accept being preached to from higher planes than ours.

[FilmSnob]

Does Thales have any surviving works?

If he does, I bet they fit into the threefold pattern I described.

[FilmSnob]

Hmm... Perhaps this is how I myself am a swindler. I am constantly attempting to co-opt the pre-existing swindle.

Also, there is always truth involved in a swindle.

[Contra-Nietzsche]

Fragments, antecedots and several authorative commentators. He also has a lineage of followers building on him in the west as well as the east. His precedents are largely apparent as well. You buddy Nietzsche has a published lecture on him, Nietzsche's 'The Pre-Platonic Philosophers'. I know Iswallows read it too, so you can hit him up on it, think Ive dispensed too much info as of late, doesnt lend to a well rounded character to get everything from one source.

[FilmSnob]

As I thought. So I was right about quoting Parmenides as the first philosopher with a surviving text.

Not to be a stickler.

[Contra-Nietzsche]

Um, no. The Diologue of pessimism... a mesopotamian text predates Thales and gives evidence to the dialogue style Plato would later use. Zoroaster almost certainly predated Thales, as well as the book on Manu and it's Irish Cousin Laws of Fenechus, Rg Veda, several egyptian texts on math and statecraft/ethics, several systems of astronomy preserved, oldest is german, not to mention a difficult mess from Tamil I am having trouble dating. Also a truckload of mythology, and some pretty philosophically minded historians and law givers. Also, there are pictograph histories we have textual histories built out of from the near east from temples, making them quite old.... but how old i dont know. Lots of persian fragments.

There is more, especially from India, but difficult at times to date. I Ching is quite old, much older than Thales, and Taoism is clearly a philosophy, but has roots stretching back into the Shang Divinatory system. I can do some research compiling a topography I suppose.

[FilmSnob]

first ancient Greek to be considered a philosopher with a surviving work

Parmenides.

Still, that topography would be fun to see.

[Contra-Nietzsche]

No.... as I said, Dialogue of Pessimism is older. Look it up, its 100 percent Nietzschean Nihilism, focusing on slave-master morality, systematically goingb through the checklist of everything Nietzsche warned against. It can be read in two minutes, but is the most important work on philosophy.... essentially the first, for any Nietzschean to consider outside of Nietzsche's works. Nietzsche himself would of ejaculated seeing it, it speaks even of the death of god.

http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/myths/ ... simism.htm

For giving this to you, you owe me now. You have to make/dedicate to me a free, 10 minute youtube video playing it out scene by scene ( you can use shadows on a Mesopotamian styled wall with the shadows looking like ancient people talking with a slave with subtitles) and linking it to Nietzsche's philosophy, part by part. Should take a few hours at most, and cost nothing but perhaps cutting up cardboard for the shapes in shadow play.

I- DRIVE TO PALACE

- [Slave, listen to me!]

- Here I am, master, here I am!

- [Quickly! Fetch me the chariot and hitch it up. I want to drive to the palace.

- Drive, master, drive! It will be to your advantage. When he will see you, the king will give you honors.

- [O well, slave] I will not drive to the palace!

- Do not drive, master, do not drive! When he will see you, the king may send you God knows where, He may make you take a route that you do not know, He will make you suffer agony day and night.


II - BANQUET

- Slave, listen to me!

- Here I am, master, here I am

- Quickly! Fetch me water for my hands, I want to dine!

- Dine, master, dine! A good meal relaxes the mind! [ ] the meal of his god. To wash one´s hand passes the time!

- O well, slave, I will not dine!

- Do not dine, master, do not dine! To eat only when one is hungry, to drink only when one is thirsty is best for man!


III - HUNT

- Slave, listen to me!

- Here I am, master, here I am!

- Quickly! Fetch me my chariot. I am going to hunt!

- Drive, master, drive! A hunter gets his belly filled! The hunting dog will break the bones of the prey! The raven that scours the country can feed its nest! The fleeting onager finds rich pastures!

- O well, slave, I will not hunt!

- Do not go, master, do not go! - The hunter´s luck changes! The hunting dog´s teeth will get broken! The raven that scours the country has a hole in the wall as a home. The fleeting onager has the desert as his stable?


IV - MARRIAGE

- Slave, listen to me!

- Here I am, master, here I am! I want to set up a home, I want to have a son! ]

- Have them, master, have them! The man who sets up a home [...] How could I set up a home! Do not set up a home; otherwise you will break up your father´s home!


V - LITIGATION

Only fragments of this stanza remain. They allow us to see that the master wants to go to court. For that purpose he decides first to let his opponent act, without saying a word. Then, changing his mind as usual, he does not want to remain silent anymore.

- Do not remain silent, master, do not remain silent! If you do not open your mouth, your opponent will have a free hand! Your prosecutors will be savage to you, if you speak!


VI - REVOLUTION

- Slave, listen to me!

- Here I am, master, here I am!

- I want to lead a revolution!

- So lead, master, lead! If you do not lead a revolution, where will your clothes come from? And who will enable you to fill your belly?

- O well, slave, I do not want to lead a revolution!

- Do not lead, master, do not lead a revolution! The man who leads a revolution is either killed or flayed, Or has his eyes put out, or is arrested and thrown to jail!




VII - LOVEMAKING

- Slave, listen to me!

- Here I am, master, here I am! I want to make love to a woman

- Make love, master, make love! The man who makes love to a woman forgets sorrow and fear!

- O well, slave, I do not want to make love to a woman!

- Do not make love, master, do not make love! Woman is a real pitfall, a hole, a ditch, Woman is a sharp iron dagger that cuts a man´s throat!




VIII - SACRIFICE

- Slave, listen to me!

- Here I am, master, here I am!

- Quick! Fetch me water for my hands and give it to me. I want to sacrifice to my god

- Sacrifice, master, sacrifice! The man who sacrifices to his god is satisfied at heart. He accumulates benefit after benefit.

- O well, slave, I do not want to sacrifice to my god!

- Do not sacrifice, master, do not sacrifice! You will teach your god to run after you like a dog. Whether he asks of you "Rites" or "Do you not consult your god?" or anything else!


IX - BUSINESS

- Slave, listen to me!

- Here I am, master, here I am!

- I want to invest silver.

- Invest, master, invest. The man who invests keeps his capital while his interest is enormous!

- O well, slave, I do not want to invest silver!

- Do not invest, master, do not invest! Making loans is as sweet as making love, but getting them back is like having children! They will take away your capital, cursing you without cease. They will make you lose the interest on the capital!


X - PHILANTROPY

- Slave, listen to me!

- Here I am, master, here I am!

- I want to perform a public benefit for my country!

- So do it, master, do it! The man who performs a public benefit for his country His actions are exposed to the circle of Marduk!

- O well, slave, I do not want to perform a public benefit for my country!

- Do not perform, master, do not perform! Go up the ancient tells and walk about. See the mixed skulls of plebeians and nobles. Which is the malefactor and which is the benefactor?




XI - CONCLUSION

- Slave, listen to me!

- Here I am, master, here I am!

- What then is good? To have my neck and yours broken, Or to be thrown into the river, is that good?

- Who is so tall as to ascend to heaven? Who is so broad as to encompass the entire world?

- O well, slave, I will kill you and send you first! -

- Yes, but my master would certainly not survive me for three days!...

The books of Ecclesiastes and the Book of Job are consider counter developments resulting from this lineage of thought. Some have noted it's a predecessor for Plato's Dialogues. This is odd.... as Nietzsche wouldn't trust the Judeo-Christian tradition as the cure to Nihilism, but this is exactly how they apparently evolved. It's a enigma for any true Nietzschean or someone with interest in Nietzsche.... as well as any Christian or Jew wanting to validate the superiority of the faith over and threw Nietzsche's own logic. We're not the nihilist, we are the triumph ending them. Nietzsche resurrected the decadent mentality, instinctively zeroing in on the thinking the religion repressed in our pagan predecessors in Mesopotamia. This is definitely, in the light of Nietzsche, a default work on nihilistic philosophy, and predates Thales and Parmenides.

Sorry Nietzschans.... the history of early philosophy does not smile upon you. Perplexing and interesting as fuck though, isn't it? Of all things in the past in the beginning, it's this.... sitting there, mocking you.... luring you into a reevauation of the sequencing of human progress. This text alone makes one examine what a overman to last man relation would look like. The fall of Marduk's kingdom.... the Jewish caste and the Tower of Babylon..... and then Cyrus..... and the collapse of that system's nihilism.... leading to the overman..... the Judeo-Christian tradition (there are traditions in the Zoroaster faith that Christ was a prophet predicted within their religion, it's why the Magi was searching for them, it's why Cyrus returned the jews and opened up the construction of the new temple, as he didn't want his kingdom to look bad to the future prophet of his faith.... and it's why the jews made him the only gentile messiah in their religion. Old testament always spoke highly of Cyrus the Great. This is of course.... the customs and traditions, most of the Zoroaster texts were destroyed by the muslim onslaught so we can't textually confirm it.

[Contra-Nietzsche]

na na na na na na

[Contra-Nietzsche]

http://www.maat.sofiatopia.org/ptahhotep.htm
The website above offers a more indepth analysis of the work below, but I got the translation from below from elsewhere, so you can compare the two- this is older than the Book of Pessimism, and it's one of the main works that clearly had a massive influence on Jesus that's still available from the ancient world, and shatters the Buddhism hypothosis.... making much, much more likely that the carpenter child Jesus hitched a ride with one of the impressed temple priests to Alexandria, spent some time reading in the library there and living in the proto-christian community of Philo of Alexandria before wandering back up north again and joining the hippy community of his relation John the Baptist, falling in with a bunch of fishermen.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/ptahhotep.asp
Precepts of the prefect, the lord Ptah-hotep,
under the Majesty of the King of the South and North,
Assa, living eternally forever.

The prefect, the feudal lord Ptah-hotep, says: O Ptah with the two crocodiles, my lord, the progress of age changes into senility. Decay falls upon man and decline takes the place of youth. A vexation weighs upon him every day; sight fails, the ear becomes deaf; his strength dissolves without ceasing. The mouth is silent, speech fails him; the mind decays, remembering not the day before. The whole body suffers. That which is good becomes evil; taste completely disappears. Old age makes a man altogether miserable; the nose is stopped up, breathing no more from exhaustion. Standing or sitting there is here a condition of . . . Who will cause me to have authority to speak, that I may declare to him the words of those who have heard the counsels of former days? And the counsels heard of the gods, who will give me authority to declare them? Cause that it be so and that evil be removed from those that are enlightened; send the double . . . The majesty of this god says: Instruct him in the sayings of former days. It is this which constitutes the merit of the children of the great. All that which makes the soul equal penetrates him who hears it, and that which it says produces no satiety.

Beginning of the arrangement of the good sayings, spoken by the noble lord, the divine father, beloved of Ptah, the son of the king, the first-born of his race, the prefect and feudal lord Ptah-hotep, so as to instruct the ignorant in the knowledge of the arguments of the good sayings. It is profitable for him who hears them, it is a loss to him who shall transgress them. He says to his son:

Be not arrogant because of that which you know; deal with the ignorant as with the learned; for the barriers of art are not closed, no artist being in possession of the perfection to which he should aspire. But good words are more difficult to find than the emerald, for it is by slaves that that is discovered among the rocks of pegmatite.

If you find a disputant while he is hot, and if he is superior to you in ability, lower the hands, bend the back, do not get into a passion with him. As he will not let you destroy his words, it is utterly wrong to interrupt him; that proclaims that you are incapable of keeping yourself calm, when you are contradicted. If then you have to do with a disputant while he is hot, imitate one who does not stir. You have the advantage over him if you keep silence when he is uttering evil words. "The better of the two is he who is impassive," say the bystanders, and you are right in the opinion of the great.

If you find a disputant while he is hot, do not despise him because you are not of the same opinion. Be not angry against him when he is wrong; away with such a thing. He fights against himself; require him not further to flatter your feelings. Do not amuse yourself with the spectacle which you have before you; it is odious, it is mean, it is the part of a despicable soul so to do. As soon as you let yourself be moved by your feelings, combat this desire as a thing that is reproved by the great.

If you have, as leader, to decide on the conduct of a great number of men, seek the most perfect
manner of doing so that your own conduct may be without reproach. Justice is great, invariable, and assured; it has not been disturbed since the age of Ptah. To throw obstacles in the way of the laws is to open the way before violence. Shall that which is below gain the upper hand, if the unjust does not attain to the place of justice? Even he who says: I take for myself, of my own free-will; but says not: I take by virtue of my authority. The limitations of justice are invariable; such is the instruction which every man receives from his father.

Inspire not men with fear, else Ptah will fight against you in the same manner. If any one asserts that he lives by such means, Ptah will take away the bread from his mouth; if any one asserts that he enriches himself thereby, Ptah says: I may take those riches to myself. If any one asserts that he beats others, Ptah will end by reducing him to impotence. Let no one inspire men with fear; this is the will of Ptah. Let one provide sustenance for them in the lap of peace; it will then be that they will freely give what has been torn from them by terror.

If you are among the persons seated at meat in the house of a greater man than yourself, take that which he gives you, bowing to the ground. Regard that which is placed before you, but point not at it; regard it not frequently; he is a blameworthy person who departs from this rule. Speak not to the great man more than he requires, for one knows not what may be displeasing to him. Speak when he invites you and your worth will be pleasing. As for the great man who has plenty of means of existence, his conduct is as he himself wishes. He does that which pleases him; if he desires to repose, he realizes his intention. The great man stretching forth his hand does that to which other men do not attain. But as the means of existence are under the will of Ptah, one can not rebel against it.

If you are one of those who bring the messages of one great man to another, conform yourself exactly to that wherewith he has charged you; perform for him the commission as he has enjoined you. Beware of altering in speaking the offensive words which one great person addresses to another; he who perverts the trustfulness of his way, in order to repeat only what produces pleasure in the words of every man, great or small, is a detestable person.

If you are a farmer, gather the crops in the field which the great Ptah has given you, do not boast in the house of your neighbors; it is better to make oneself dreaded by one's deeds. As for him who, master of his own way of acting, being all-powerful, seizes the goods of others like a crocodile in the midst even of watchment, his children are an object of malediction, of scorn, and of hatred on account of it, while his father is grievously distressed, and as for the mother who has borne him, happy is another rather than herself. But a man becomes a god when he is chief of a tribe which has confidence in following him.

If you abase yourself in obeying a superior, your conduct is entirely good before Ptah. Knowing who you ought to obey and who you ought to command, do not lift up your heart against him. As you know that in him is authority, be respectful toward him as belonging to him. Wealth comes only at Ptah's own good-will, and his caprice only is the law; as for him who . . Ptah, who has created his superiority, turns himself from him and he is overthrown.

Be active during the time of your existence, do no more than is commanded. Do not spoil the time of your activity; he is a blameworthy person who makes a bad use of his moments. Do not lose the daily opportunity of increasing that which your house possesses. Activity produces riches, and riches do not endure when it slackens.

If you are a wise man, bring up a son who shall be pleasing to Ptah. If he conforms his conduct to your way and occupies himself with your affairs as is right, do to him all the good you can; he is your son, a person attached to you whom your own self has begotten. Separate not your heart from him.... But if he conducts himself ill and transgresses your wish, if he rejects all counsel, if his mouth goes according to the evil word, strike him on the mouth in return. Give orders without hesitation to those who do wrong, to him whose temper is turbulent; and he will not deviate from the straight path, and there will be no obstacle to interrupt the way.

If you are employed in the larit, stand or sit rather than walk about. Lay down rules for yourself from the first: not to absent yourself even when weariness overtakes you. Keep an eye on him who enters announcing that what he asks is secret; what is entrusted to you is above appreciation, and all contrary argument is a matter to be rejected. He is a god who penetrates into a place where no relaxation of the rules is made for the privileged.

If you are with people who display for you an extreme affection, saying: "Aspiration of my heart, aspiration of my heart, where there is no remedy! That which is said in your heart, let it be realized by springing up spontaneously. Sovereign master, I give myself to your opinion. Your name is approved without speaking. Your body is full of vigor, your face is above your neighbors." If then you are accustomed to this excess of flattery, and there be an obstacle to you in your desires, then your impulse is to obey your passion. But he who . . . according to his caprice, his soul is . . ., his body is . . . While the man who is master of his soul is superior to those whom Ptah has loaded with his gifts; the man who obeys his passion is under the power of his wife.

Declare your line of conduct without reticence; give your opinion in the council of your lord; while there are people who turn back upon their own words when they speak, so as not to offend him who has put forward a statement, and answer not in this fashion: "He is the great man who will recognize the error of another; and when he shall raise his voice to oppose the other about it he will keep silence after what I have said."

If you are a leader, setting forward your plans according to that which you decide, perform perfect actions which posterity may remember, without letting the words prevail with you which multiply flattery, which excite pride and produce vanity.

If you are a leader of peace, listen to the discourse of the petitioner. Be not abrupt with him; that would trouble him. Say not to him: "You have already recounted this." Indulgence will encourage him to accomplish the object of his coming. As for being abrupt with the complainant because he described what passed when the injury was done, instead of complaining of the injury itself let it not be! The way to obtain a clear explanation is to listen with kindness.

If you desire to excite respect within the house you enter, for example the house of a superior, a friend, or any person of consideration, in short everywhere where you enter, keep yourself from making advances to a woman, for there is nothing good in so doing. There is no prudence in taking part in it, and thousands of men destroy themselves in order to enjoy a moment, brief as a dream, while they gain death, so as to know it. It is a villainous intention, that of a man who thus excites himself; if he goes on to carry it out, his mind abandons him. For as for him who is without repugnance for such an act, there is no good sense at all in him.

If you desire that your conduct should be good and preserved from all evil, keep yourself from every attack of bad humor. It is a fatal malady which leads to discord, and there is no longer any existence for him who gives way to it. For it introduces discord between fathers and mothers, as well as between brothers and sisters; it causes the wife and the husband to hate each other; it contains all kinds of wickedness, it embodies all kinds of wrong. When a man has established his just equilibrium and walks in this path, there where he makes his dwelling, there is no room for bad humor.

Be not of an irritable temper as regards that which happens at your side; grumble not over your own affairs. Be not of an irritable temper in regard to your neighbors; better is a compliment to that which displeases than rudeness. It is wrong to get into a passion with one's neighbors, to be no longer master of one's words. When there is only a little irritation, one creates for oneself an affliction for the time when one will again be cool.

If you are wise, look after your house; love your wife without alloy. Fill her stomach, clothe her back; these are the cares to be bestowed on her person. Caress her, fulfil her desires during the time of her existence; it is a kindness which does honor to its possessor. Be not brutal; tact will influence her better than violence; her . . . behold to what she aspires, at what she aims, what she regards. It is that which fixes her in your house; if you repel her, it is an abyss. Open your arms for her, respond to her arms; call her, display to her your love.

Treat your dependents well, in so far as it belongs to you to do so; and it belongs to those whom Ptah has favored. If any one fails in treating his dependents well it is said: "He is a person . . ." As we do not know the events which may happen tomorrow, he is a wise person by whom one is well treated. When there comes the necessity of showing zeal, it will then be the dependents themselves who say: "Come on, come on," if good treatment has not quitted the place; if it has quitted it, the dependents are defaulters.

Do not repeat any extravagance of language; do not listen to it; it is a thing which has escaped from a hasty mouth. If it is repeated, look, without hearing it, toward the earth; say nothing in regard to it. Cause him who speaks to you to know what is just, even him who provokes to injustice; cause that which is just to be done, cause it to triumph. As for that which is hateful according to the law, condemn it by unveiling it.

If you are a wise man, sitting in the council of your lord, direct your thought toward that which is wise. Be silent rather than scatter your words. When you speak, know that which can be brought against you. To speak in the council is an art, and speech is criticized more than any other labor; it is contradiction which puts it to the proof.

If you are powerful, respect knowledge and calmness of language. Command only to direct; to be absolute is to run into evil. Let not your heart be haughty, neither let it be mean. Do not let your orders remain unsaid and cause your answers to penetrate; but speak without heat, assume a serious countenance. As for the vivacity of an ardent heart, temper it; the gentle man penetrates all obstacles. He who agitates himself all the day long has not a good moment; and he who amuses himself all the day long keeps not his fortune. Aim at fulness like pilots; once one is seated another works, and seeks to obey one's orders.

Disturb not a great man; weaken not the attention of him who is occupied. His care is to embrace his task, and he strips his person through the love which he puts into it. That transports men to Ptah, even the love for the work which they accomplish. Compose then your face even in trouble, that peace may be with you, when agitation is with . . .These are the people who succeed in what they desire.

Teach others to render homage to a great man. If you gather the crop for him among men, cause it to return fully to its owner, at whose hands is your subsistence. But the gift of affection is worth more than the provisions with which your back is covered. For that which the great man receives from you will enable your house to live, without speaking of the maintenance you enjoy, which you desire to preserve; it is thereby that he extends a beneficent hand, and that in your home good things are added to good things. Let your love pass into the heart of those who love you; cause those about you to be loving and obedient.

If you are a son of the guardians deputed to watch over the public tranquillity, execute your commission without knowing its meaning, and speak with firmness. Substitute not for that which the instructor has said what you believe to be his intention; the great use words as it suits them. Your part is to transmit rather than to comment upon.

If you are annoyed at a thing, if you are tormented by someone who is acting within his right, get out of his sight, and remember him no more when he has ceased to address you.

If you have become great after having been little, if you have become rich after having been poor, when you are at the head of the city, know how not to take advantage of the fact that you have reached the first rank, harden not your heart because of your elevation; you are become only the administrator, the prefect, of the provisions which belong to Ptah. Put not behind you the neighbor who is like you; be unto him as a companion.

Bend your back before your superior. You are attached to the palace of the king; your house is established in its fortune, and your profits are as is fitting. Yet a man is annoyed at having an authority above himself, and passes the period of life in being vexed thereat. Although that hurts not your . . . Do not plunder the house of your neighbors, seize not by force the goods which are beside you. Exclaim not then against that which you hear, and do not feel humiliated. It is necessary to reflect when one is hindered by it that the pressure of authority is felt also by one's neighbor.

Do not make . . . you know that there are obstacles to the water which comes to its hinder part, and that there is no trickling of that which is in its bosom. Let it not . . . after having corrupted his heart.

If you aim at polished manners, call not him whom you accost. Converse with him especially in such a way as not to annoy him. Enter on a discussion with him only after having left him time to saturate his mind with the subject of the conversation. If he lets his ignorance display itself, and if he gives you all opportunity to disgrace him, treat him with courtesy rather; proceed not to drive him into a corner; do not . . . the word to him; answer not in a crushing manner; crush him not; worry him not; in order that in his turn he may not return to the subject, but depart to the profit of your conversation.

Let your countenance be cheerful during the time of your existence. When we see one departing from the storehouse who has entered in order to bring his share of provision, with his face contracted, it shows that his stomach is empty and that authority is offensive to him. Let not that happen to you; it is . . .

Know those who are faithful to you when you are in low estate. Your merit then is worth more than those who did you honor. His . . ., behold that which a man possesses completely. That is of more importance than his high rank; for this is a matter which passes from one to another. The merit of one's son is advantageous to the father, and that which he really is, is worth more than the remembrance of his father's rank.

Distinguish the superintendent who directs from the workman, for manual labor is little elevated; the inaction of the hands is honorable. If a man is not in the evil way, that which places him there is the want of subordination to authority.

If you take a wife, do not . . . Let her be more contented than any of her fellow-citizens. She will be attached to you doubly, if her chain is pleasant. Do not repel her; grant that which pleases her; it is to her contentment that she appreciates your work.

If you hear those things which I have said to you, your wisdom will be fully advanced. Although they are the means which are suitable for arriving at the maat, and it is that which makes them precious, their memory would recede from the mouth of men. But thanks to the beauty of their arrangement in rhythm all their words will now be carried without alteration over this earth eternally. That will create a canvass to be embellished, whereof the great will speak, in order to instruct men in its sayings. After having listened to them the pupil will become a master, even he who shall have properly listened to the sayings because he shall have heard them. Let him win success by placing himself in the first rank; that is for him a position perfect and durable, and he has nothing further to desire forever. By knowledge his path is assured, and he is made happy by it on the earth. The wise man is satiated by knowledge; he is a great man through his own merits. His tongue is in accord with his mind; just are his lips when he speaks, his eyes when he gazes, his ears when he hears. The advantage of his son is to do that which is just without deceiving himself.

To attend therefore profits the son of him who has attended. To attend is the result of the fact that one has attended. A teachable auditor is formed, because I have attended. Good when he has attended, good when he speaks, he who has attended has profited, and it is profitable to attend to him who has attended. To attend is worth more than anything else, for it produces love, the good thing that is twice good. The son who accepts the instruction of his father will grow old on that account. What Ptah loves is that one should attend; if one attends not, it is abhorrent to Ptah. The heart makes itself its own master when it attends and when it does not attend; but if it attends, then his heart is a beneficent master to a man. In attending to instruction, a man loves what he attends to, and to do that which is prescribed is pleasant. When a son attends to his father, it is a twofold joy for both; when wise things are prescribed to him, the son is gentle toward his master. Attending to him who has attended when such things have been prescribed to him, he engraves upon his heart that which is approved by his father; and the recollection of it is preserved in the mouth of the living who exist upon this earth.

When a son receives the instruction of his father there is no error in all his plans. Train your son to be a teachable man whose wisdom is agreeable to the great. Let him direct his mouth according to that which has been said to him; in the docility of a son is discovered his wisdom. His conduct is perfect while error carries away the unteachable. Tomorrow knowledge will support him, while the ignorant will be destroyed.

As for the man without experience who listens not, he effects nothing whatsoever. He sees knowledge in ignorance, profit in loss; he commits all kinds of error, always accordingly choosing the contrary of what is praiseworthy. He lives on that which is mortal, in this fashion. His food is evil words, whereat he is filled with astonishment. That which the great know to be mortal he lives upon every day, flying from that which would be profitable to him, because of the multitude of errors which present themselves before him every day.

A son who attends is like a follower of Horus; he is happy after having attended. He becomes great, he arrives at dignity, he gives the same lesson to his children. Let none innovate upon the precepts of his father; let the same precepts form his lessons to his children. "Verily," will his children say to him, "to accomplish what you say works marvels." Cause therefore that to flourish which is just, in order to nourish your children with it. If the teachers allow themselves to be led toward evil principles, verily the people who understand them not will speak accordingly, and that being said to those who are docile they will act accordingly. Then all the world considers them as masters and they inspire confidence in the public; but their glory endures not so long as would please them. Take not away then a word from the ancient teaching, and add not one; put not one thing in place of another; beware of uncovering the rebellious ideas which arise in you; but teach according to the words of the wise. Attend if you wish to dwell in the mouth of those who shall attend to your words, when you have entered upon the office of master, that your words may be upon our lips . . . and that there may be a chair from which to deliver your arguments.

Let your thoughts be abundant, but let your mouth be under restraint, and you shall argue with the great. Put yourself in unison with the ways of your master; cause him to say: "He is my son," so that those who shall hear it shall say "Praise be to her who has borne him to him!" Apply yourself while you speak; speak only of perfect things; and let the great who shall hear you say: "Twice good is that which issues from his mouth!"

Do that which your master bids you. Twice good is the precept of his father, from whom he has issued, from his flesh. What he tells us, let it be fixed in our heart; to satisfy him greatly let us do for him more than he has prescribed. Verily a good son is one of the gifts of Ptah, a son who does even better than he has been told to do. For his master he does what is satisfactory, putting himself with all his heart on the part of right. So I shall bring it about that your body shall be healthful, that the Pharaoh shall be satisfied with you in all circumstances and that you shall obtain years of life without default. It has caused me on earth to obtain one hundred and ten years of life, along with the gift of the favor of the Pharoah among the first of those whom their works have ennobled, satisfying the Pharoah in a place of dignity.

It is finished, from its beginning to its end, according to that which is found in writing.

There are older works.... I am having trouble finding them. I remember seeing works of math on this scroll, so give me some time in tracking that.... this computer is almost dead, so I gotta switch to my copy and paste incapable Nook Tablet for the rest of the day.

[FilmSnob]

My only comment for the moment:

Akkadian does not = Greek.

You are right, but you are not right in that I was not right.

[Contra-Nietzsche]

You wanted a greek philosopher before Parmenides? Fuck.... so damn fineky. So..... Milesian...... would this be what rthnicity or cultural tradition.... Hittite, persian, Lydian, Palegian..... okay, Ill look through the hittite and stoic records.... they had records on law, history, and mythology, maybe some tract was preserved in the annals and can be traced in evolution to what would become greek. You make shit hard, you know that.... it should be enough I trampled the Thales was first assumption.

[Contra-Nietzsche]

Looks like Hesiod's Works just barely beat out Thales, his Works and Days qualifies definately as philosophy. Havent read his other work. So.... yeah. Even when you retard the situation to greek, there are works around prior. Ill still look into the protogreeks..... found two none greek persians I have to read now.

[FilmSnob]

You might as well credit Homer with being a philosopher with surviving work previous to Parmenides. These poets, though perhaps philosophical "in a way," never delved right into philosophical stuff. Therefore, I still maintain that Parmenides was the first ancient Greek philosopher with a surviving work.

Even the Dialogue of Pessimism, though admittedly fucking awesome (and I think mistakenly named), isn't pure philosophy. It is more what Parmenides would call "human opinions."

[Contra-Nietzsche]

Parmenides doesnt have a monopoly on philosophy, no one does, not even system builders. Pessimism is pure philosophy. Its a instinctive drive in use, and uses no singular part of the mind, hence no universal genesis. We tried many times in the past to try this, and if there every is one capable of refuting this pointing to the philosophy node of the brain..... a silicon constructed artifical mind will reply 'fuck you' and continue on pondering without that node. As will my cat when contemplating the mystery of what happens to her poop when we scoop it up and bag it. The mysteries abound, and the game is afoot.

This being said, Illad and Odyssey are off the list, as is the Mahabhrata. I can include portions, if they suggest a completed stand alone form within, but cant spot any in the Homeric Cycles.... though the are plenty in other epic cycles around the world. I dont know why this is the case.... seems rather odd, a epic cycle IS the literature of a preliterate civilization. It contains the diversity of its systems. Not so here though. I have found this to be pyzzling for a year now. Might explain Herodotus and his grasp for picking out the philosophical and historical from the theological and mythological. I dont think he caused it of course, but is as much a subject to the force as the creation of the homeric cycles. You have no idea how strongly they've shaped our hermenuetic methods and philology and approach to idealist wriying and quoting. Not like with the Spring and Autumn Annals.... dear god, so different.

[FilmSnob]

All of the objections you raised in that last post are properly addressed in the OP.

It seems that among the older religions, like Jainism, the norm was to establish a text containing "the truth about the universe," "what you can look forward to," and "how to go about it."

The part that philosophy is concerned with is "the truth about the universe." What better evidence than the first ancient Greek to be considered a philosopher with a surviving work: only the "truth about the universe" part was left. "What you can look forward to" was covered by popular worship of Zeus et al. and "how to go about it" is missing. The Greek in question was Parmenides, who so eloquently explained how that which is, is, and that which is not, is not (thus what is cannot not be and what is not cannot be).

Jainism covers a more psychological angle, but I think this is a pretty good case for original religions to be naturally occuring phenomena in certain cultural conditions that are able to adapt to changing conditions.

In other words, there will always be a guy with the intention and the know-how to get you to join a cult.

There are direct ways of investigating "the truth about the universe," and there are indirect ones. The direct ones are philosophy. The indirect ones are usually art.

I am saying that philosophy is not some neurological function of humans, but a specific tradition with set parameters.

[Contra-Nietzsche]

The traditions are neurologically processed, and the parameters are fixed in the structure of the brain tissue and how we train our neurological pathways to neurochemically check processed information from going where. What, you think you just type letters onto a computer, and the letters fit into letter molds in the computer and are mechanically juxtapositioned till a pidgeon picks up the letter and flies it down the line to the next computer to be unpacked, taken out of its brass mold, and reassembled on the screen? There are processor chips and hard drives involved. Your expectation to liberate philosophy via negating neurology is foolish here, just increases the unconscious metaphysical dependency..... which if gained and pondered from a empirical void is honest enough.... but in your case you know better. Maybe my watch is calculating my traditional assumptions for me.... Im a schitzocyborg. Lets get high and walk around in the Australian Aboriginal Dreamworld while were at it.

[FilmSnob]

You are trying to mix HTML with binary code. Yes, binary code allows HTML to exist, but they behave in radically different ways.

You say philosophy is dependent on neurology? I say philosophy is just friendlier neurological code. The parameters for a webpage are not determined by binary programing directly, but indirectly by a composite programing language that uses binary code.

In this way, philosophical thought uses pre-existing neurological structures, but is not pre-determined by them. If this were the case, we could expect people at any given point of homo sapiens history to spontaniously write down quantum theory in the English language.

The truth is more complicated than this. In fact, there are, to use your words, diverse arrays of feedback loops between instinctual action and abstract thought. Philosophy as abstract thought is more a tradition than a neurological structure because it requires abstract parameters that were developped in an evolutionary process of natural selection to be inculcated into the pre-existing neurological structure of any given human being.

I study memetics as well as genetics.

[Contra-Nietzsche]

My reply is gone. Weird.


Fuck..... okay, even though I am completely and totally in the right, Ill cede the points to this argument to you. But this has no carry over in any other threads, even if dealing with these given points.

Score so far:
Onasander 4367 -Pezer 3

[FilmSnob]

A lazy supertroll is a disappointing supertroll.

[Contra-Nietzsche]

I know..... I've been trolling a site full of trolls..... literally, thats all they do is troll this writer, and they expected me to be devestating.....nope, I went the Lol kitty route with the I poop in your soup comments, and make certain I mass my spelling up as often as possible. They get so mad telling me I am a horrible troll, but they ban everyone else trying. I actually agree with them though on most things..... author sucks balls, happens to own the copyright to a deceased good authors works and keeps adding new crap books..... but no one has to read them..... and seeing these crazyfucks go into a frenzy..... well, I just couldnt help it. I convinced one guy, a american computer professor in Japan I was a pakistani donkey herder who wanted to have butt sex with him. Deeply hilarious. Im like, seven over there usually though. So fucking stupid and innane.... but it works wonders on thier nerves. Just be the retard from tropic thunder.

[FilmSnob]

I blame myself. I will work harder on my OPs.

[Contra-Nietzsche]

Naw... like... I do this to everyone. Just... fuck. Someone someday once I kick it will give what thoughts Ive left behind a good discussion. Till then, Im like a wind chime making my own music with the currents ogf a invisible movement men game never grasp but can usually feel. Just enjoy the music, and prepare some tea for the Banshee once she comes knocking. She used to be a wild slut back in her day. Now its all spiritual tea time death crap.