ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, WTP)

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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:49 am

Cezar wrote:Coz you need to bow down in front of the authoritey, no fixey?

I am afraid I have no one to bow down to, Cezar - by authority I do not mean the same as you -- I do not mean Allah or Nietzsche, or any sort of superior being -- what I mean by an authority on the subject of Greek history is simply someone who has read and studied diligently and is able to produce some knowledge. Your epileptic bouts of spurting some random trivia do not amount not such an authority. Besides that you can never attain to a single clear thought, is has become clear to me from your notions of shame and secrecy that you've never actually read Homer, hence know precisely nothing about the Greeks.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Cezar » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:03 pm

Whatever. You are a new guy to me in the world of thought. Can't say I have read anything original from you so far.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:02 pm

Cezar wrote:Whatever. You are a new guy to me in the world of thought. Can't say I have read anything original from you so far.

I can't say that you seem to have understood anything I have written.

As for the focus on "originality", seeing your obsession with Nietzsche, I assume you knows what he says about this. It is in any case the opposite to classical taste.

What I have done is, I made Nietzsches philosophy more powerful, into an instrument. You may instinctively rebel against such a move, or simply not be smart enough to understand it. You are in the camp of the anarchists, so richly represented on ILP these days, and try desperately to corrode the massive structure I have arisen amidst the tides of your uncontrolled chemistry.

Read very carefully, slowly, the arguments I have written on value ontology in this thread, reread them, and read them again -- the thought seems mainly difficult to understand for those who seek to use Nietzsches philosophy to make themselves feel superior. It makes the notion of will to power into something more than a new God, which it has been to you -- it makes it truly understandable, but only as a consequence of complete self-honesty.

Your "will to power" Cezar may very well be the will to deceive yourself about yourself. The only self-deceiving I have done the past decade has been to consider myself equal to others. Others have never been able to attain to my honesty, because others were never as powerful, as free as I am. It is lonesome at the top, but this is a wellspring of happiness. What hurt me was the yearning of others for the type of power that I have, the jealousy -- this made me try to convince them that they could also attain to such power -- I lied, and I drove men insane by this lying.

"What determines your rank is the quantum of power you are: the rest is cowardice."
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Cezar » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:45 am

You sound now like someone who was a teenager before a short period of time and now you are finally able to regret some things.

There is a difference between considering others equal to yourself and giving others equal rights. Nobody is able today to possess unequal rights... not unpunished.

As for the focus on "originality", seeing your obsession with Nietzsche, I assume you knows what he says about this. It is in any case the opposite to classical taste.


No idea what you mean. Originality is always spirituality in the classical sense. That is what you called "producing knowledge". Creating new solutions and discovering new regularities. You appear as somebody to me who possesses that "gefährliches Halbwissen". Like a Christian who wants to revalue Nietzsche as a symptom of decadence.


If you accuse someone of being obsessed with someone, then it is your trademark. In truth I was always obsessed only with truth. And truth is in reality overhumanly. Didn't you know that? How poor would I be without this man then? How hungry and thirsty was I all my life until the age of 24. How poor the world has seemed to me! The man has enriched an entire world, so, why not give him the honor of a god? If Alexander could take that honor, then he certainly can have it.

I am obsessed with everything overhumanly and that is what I call "living life to the fullest", in contrary to the modern "living life to the foolest".

And of course I dislike it when a Christian engages in philosophy, it is most harmful.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:57 am

In truth I was always obsessed only with truth.

Obsessed with truth. In truth, no less.
Sounds serious.

I was also partly psychotic. But I was also partly sane.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Cezar » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:28 am

Come on! Sanity of a nihilist? Of a nihilist era? And you are serious...
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:48 am

The people at the asylum are nice to let you use the internet. But do they have a library as well? If they do, I recommend that you leave the forum alone for a while, and make it your task to read the Homeric epics. I believe that even the insane might benefit from becoming acquainted with the greatest poetic mind of all time.

Your mind is not fitted to rational thought. But there is an en-thusia-sm that just may be developed into a poetic spirit, if you would align the course of your reflections along the properly archaic aesthetics.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Only_Humean » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:58 am

Thread locked for 24 hours, any further quibbling will lead to warnings.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:32 pm

On BTL Parodites wrote:From my understanding, what we call value-ontology here is a reversal of the classical philosophical paradigm. Philosophy has first studied the nature of being, ontology, then built a morality on top of that. What we think is that ontology, that being, can only be discovered after valuations have been made, after a value system has been established. The primary ontological factor then, for a morality of this kind, must be that entity which empowers and makes the valuation possible in the first place: the valuing and creating self. The study of ontology then becomes the study of what is theoretically possible, conceivable, for the valuing subject in terms of experience, it becomes the attempt Adorno pointed towards in this quote, "Perspectives must be produced which set the world beside itself, alienated from itself, revealing its cracks and fissures, as needy and distorted as it will one day lay there in the messianic light."


Morality (value) as primary, ontology as secondary, that is the basic premise. Following it through would eradicate the distinction between essence and appearance, noumenon and phenomenon, that Nietzsche often criticized and which had stifled philosophy by the 19th century.



This value before ontology notion I would sum up with this quote by Athanasius: Ει ουν φιλοσοφητέον είτε μη φιλοσοφητέον, φιλοσοφητέον. [Man, by virtue of his daemonic nature, must be a philosopher, rather he wants to or not, rather he philosophizes or not.]

The corruption of philosophy, morality's loss of its primary quality, goes as far back as Plato.

Traditional ethical philosophy and morality have phrased the Good in a language quite distinct from the language that traditional philosophy uses to phrase the True. The true has always been purely representative. The truth, in the old Platonic sense, as the Ideas, are not positive specifications of knowledge. They are conditions of possibility of knowledge. Like the law of identity, a thing is what it is and no other thing. That is not itself a positive piece of knowledge, but is rather a representative kind of knowledge: it merely represents the transcendental object by which the empirical consciousness holds itself in existence and sustains the process of thought. I want to begin a new ethical philosophy that treats the Good in just this way, as purely representative, as a condition of possibility for the empirical, lived, finite, meaning-seeking consciousness. Our morals do not accomplish such a representative act, they do not represent to us a transcendental object. Our moral and ethical philosophies have tried to be merely positive designations of knowledge. Do this or do not do this. This is a virtue, that is a vice, etc. This owes itself to the primal error by Plato, who spoke of the good in a different language than he used to speak of the true. The true was spoken of as a representative idea, whereas the good was discovered within Eros' loving gaze, was born of this gaze, and because it was related only to Eros, only to the lover and not the beloved object itself, not the transcendental order to which truth belonged, which truth represented, this "good" served for Eros as a merely positive objectification of knowledge rather than as a representative of the transcendental. The foremost goal of a new ethical philosophy must be to re-imagine "ethical ideas," that is, purely representative goods. In the way in which the idea sustains the process of thought and holds the empirical consciousness in existence, "ethical ideas" must sustain a process that I call the "erotic-daemonic," and that new ethical philosophy which engenders them must hold the transcendental objects and those truths which represent these objects in existence, must hold the "ontological" philosophy in existence, by continually recovering those conditions of limitation within the empirical consciousness from which such truths were born.

How might we begin to frame the Good in this way?
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby aletheia » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:32 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
On BTL Parodites wrote:From my understanding, what we call value-ontology here is a reversal of the classical philosophical paradigm. Philosophy has first studied the nature of being, ontology, then built a morality on top of that. What we think is that ontology, that being, can only be discovered after valuations have been made, after a value system has been established. The primary ontological factor then, for a morality of this kind, must be that entity which empowers and makes the valuation possible in the first place: the valuing and creating self. The study of ontology then becomes the study of what is theoretically possible, conceivable, for the valuing subject in terms of experience, it becomes the attempt Adorno pointed towards in this quote, "Perspectives must be produced which set the world beside itself, alienated from itself, revealing its cracks and fissures, as needy and distorted as it will one day lay there in the messianic light."


Morality (value) as primary, ontology as secondary, that is the basic premise. Following it through would eradicate the distinction between essence and appearance, noumenon and phenomenon, that Nietzsche often criticized and which had stifled philosophy by the 19th century.



This value before ontology notion I would sum up with this quote by Athanasius: Ει ουν φιλοσοφητέον είτε μη φιλοσοφητέον, φιλοσοφητέον. [Man, by virtue of his daemonic nature, must be a philosopher, rather he wants to or not, rather he philosophizes or not.]

The corruption of philosophy, morality's loss of its primary quality, goes as far back as Plato.

Traditional ethical philosophy and morality have phrased the Good in a language quite distinct from the language that traditional philosophy uses to phrase the True. The true has always been purely representative. The truth, in the old Platonic sense, as the Ideas, are not positive specifications of knowledge. They are conditions of possibility of knowledge. Like the law of identity, a thing is what it is and no other thing. That is not itself a positive piece of knowledge, but is rather a representative kind of knowledge: it merely represents the transcendental object by which the empirical consciousness holds itself in existence and sustains the process of thought. I want to begin a new ethical philosophy that treats the Good in just this way, as purely representative, as a condition of possibility for the empirical, lived, finite, meaning-seeking consciousness. Our morals do not accomplish such a representative act, they do not represent to us a transcendental object. Our moral and ethical philosophies have tried to be merely positive designations of knowledge. Do this or do not do this. This is a virtue, that is a vice, etc. This owes itself to the primal error by Plato, who spoke of the good in a different language than he used to speak of the true. The true was spoken of as a representative idea, whereas the good was discovered within Eros' loving gaze, was born of this gaze, and because it was related only to Eros, only to the lover and not the beloved object itself, not the transcendental order to which truth belonged, which truth represented, this "good" served for Eros as a merely positive objectification of knowledge rather than as a representative of the transcendental. The foremost goal of a new ethical philosophy must be to re-imagine "ethical ideas," that is, purely representative goods. In the way in which the idea sustains the process of thought and holds the empirical consciousness in existence, "ethical ideas" must sustain a process that I call the "erotic-daemonic," and that new ethical philosophy which engenders them must hold the transcendental objects and those truths which represent these objects in existence, must hold the "ontological" philosophy in existence, by continually recovering those conditions of limitation within the empirical consciousness from which such truths were born.

How might we begin to frame the Good in this way?


What this seems to be requiring is that we start forging transcendental ethical ideas. The notions of ethical prescriptions or positive designations must be, if not entirely abandoned, at the very least supplanted by a new ethical order of thinking.

What is Good? A significant challenge here is finding a way to frame these ideas ("erotic-daemonics") in our normal use of langauge and meaning. So far, it seems to me, this realm of meaning-creating exists largely super-linguistically, unable to be translated into a clear meaningful statement, word or sentence or thesis. Through successful use of abstract and aesthetic language Parodites makes known in the above quotation a space wherein a possibility for this sort of new ethical idea becomes visible. But we need more than subtle and quick glances inward toward this idea's possibility, what you are calling for is precisely that we begin creating, demonstrating, actualizing. If it is the case that we now know these ideas are possible, and we being to see how they differ from traditional ethics and ideas of the good, now it is our responsibility to be creators and visionaries. These ideas must be forged and concretized in ways that allow them (and their more authentic implications of radical potency) to become meaningfully transmissible to the populace at large. So-called "average people" need to be able to relate to these ideas, to the expression of them.

I would say that traditionally this sort of new ethical possibility has been expressed largely in art and poetry. Which is to say, more indirect plays upon the emotions and more passional subjective qualia. They succeed in stimulating effects on this level, but these effects tend to remain here, largely pre-conceptual, non-linguistic, non-"Real" but rather only just "subjective", informing largely automatic-unconscious manifestations and manipulations of the heart and of those more cognitive possibilities that are most (intangibly) drawn with/in/to the spheres of the heart's influence/s. To bridge this gap seems unthinkable, literally something that is all but impossible to formulate conceptually, in terms of language-meaning, direct ideas, reason and willful intention. So I would probably say that before we begin addressing the question, "How might we begin to frame the Good in this way?" we must first at least become sufficiently aware of another question/problem which is necessary to the very questionableness of it: How to construct new bridges/passes between the heart and the mind, uniting passional emotionism and rational cognition, a will to sentiment-affect and a will to language-truth? New signifiers, assisted in their transmission by the creation of new (and perhaps even new types of) memes would potentially be capable of heralding in this more direct possibility for new syntheses of consciousness/subjectivity. And, just maybe, while we are confronting and leaving ourselves open and exposed before this monstrously difficult task (so difficult also because remaining open before it also requires of us that we draw entirely within ourselves the world itself in all its manifold contingency and exegesis, hope and horror in order that our new-born syntheses may find a sufficiently fertile ground in which to secure and grow themselves rather than become, without such a ground(-ing possibility) almost immediately effaced by the behemoths of nature (inertia/time) and world (gravity)), new forms of truly transcendental ethical ideas might begin to emerge and appear naturally before us.
'The daemonic genius is the only thing capable of surviving the odds of existence versus no existence... because of what it empirically tolerates though fundamentally defying it, the deepest existence is satyrical. The grin on a primordial sailor, grim to all things human, his enjoyment in the uncertainty. He knows himself by this very factor. Valuing the uncertainty of the universe as an extension of oneself - this sailor is the primordial being.' [Source]


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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:12 pm

How to construct new bridges/passes between the heart and the mind[?]

A tested way is to create a mythos under which much that was until now unacceptable can be aligned. But this myth must be reminiscent in nothing of a god. It can not be a greater entity, it must be the retrieval of something far greater than all that has been experienced before, from a never disclosed case locked within the emergent being until this had grown to maturity, proper birth-giving form. This is what immaculate conception may mean to us - the seed retroactively implanted in the logical ground of being by identifying its logic - a seed that could not have come to fruition except by its retroactive implanting, but which outline was there all along to be materialized. A treasure never hidden, only implicit in the full growth from self-valuing atom to self-knowing self-valuing. This is my ring - the pact between knowledge and progression, 'fate'.

On a more practical note: required of all initiates is that they understand value as implicit valuation and not vice versa. There is a depth of which value reflects something to make it known to us. This is why newer and higher values are being created - the approaching of the depth is being expanded. This is not to say that the depth is approached.

A new ethics must rely on what is already there, what is real. The philosopher is not the Messiah, who takes the hordes of slaves under his wings against the world, but the teacher who illuminates to Alexander his power to conquer it.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby aletheia » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:00 pm

In taking stock of what is already there we may "mythologize" the cognitive and affective components, as the Greeks did, but without appeal to eternal or infinite images. This would close the gap between "values as implicit valuation" and its opposite, that ubiquitous present-day valuation-diffusion. To form a literal and direct relating between explicated-delineated (and not necessarily "defined") cognitive or affective, mental or emotional elements, forms; this therefore would be less metaphorical and rather more metonymic. It strikes me that this hits closer in to the actual method/s "automatically" employed by consciousness than mere poetry. We must subject the poetic to a higher authority and reason, to organize it, to distill it into a (partial, for this is always thus) synthesis, a formal declaration and purpose.
'The daemonic genius is the only thing capable of surviving the odds of existence versus no existence... because of what it empirically tolerates though fundamentally defying it, the deepest existence is satyrical. The grin on a primordial sailor, grim to all things human, his enjoyment in the uncertainty. He knows himself by this very factor. Valuing the uncertainty of the universe as an extension of oneself - this sailor is the primordial being.' [Source]


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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby aletheia » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:06 pm

We might therefore move to amend Heidegger; no longer, "Only a god can save us", but "Only by a godless purpose will we be saved".
'The daemonic genius is the only thing capable of surviving the odds of existence versus no existence... because of what it empirically tolerates though fundamentally defying it, the deepest existence is satyrical. The grin on a primordial sailor, grim to all things human, his enjoyment in the uncertainty. He knows himself by this very factor. Valuing the uncertainty of the universe as an extension of oneself - this sailor is the primordial being.' [Source]


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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Gestalt7Cl7 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:39 pm

The age-old idealist distinction between the apparent and the real is fraught with confusion.

A. An appearance can only be an appearance to someone. An appearance is a conscious experience. Without consciousness, there are no appearances.

B. Every appearance must have an object—the thing that it appears to be. Because an object is a conscious experience, there are two possibilities: (1) an object is entirely generated in the brain without the influence of anything real outside the consciousness; or (2) something outside the consciousness is the operative cause of an experienced object through the sense organs. If (2) is the case, the fact that the brain actively conditions sense impressions to make them sensible would not remove the fact that something real outside the consciousness triggers objects of experience.

Clearly, if (1) is the case, the following would hold: Either (a) the senses serve no purpose whatsoever; or (b) the senses are not themselves real. In either case, it would be patent illogic to propose that “appearances are concerned with self-preservation.” If the senses foster self-preservation, there must, at a minimum, be a spatio-temporal correspondence between an object as experienced and the object itself. From this, one may properly conclude that the real world is spatio-temporal both as it appears and as it is.

(C) “Values” cannot be experienced through the senses, because they have no spatio-temporal content. Therefore, as objects of experience, values have no existence outside of conscious experience.

(D) Moral values are not only mind-dependent but also entirely dependent on human nature—more particularly, on the fact that humans are social animals. Moral values govern the interactions of individuals in human societies. Like it or not, human morality is “the morality of the herd.” Moral values can be based upon cultural mores or upon the natural sense of rectitude embodied in the so-called golden rule. However, moral values are public and not subjective. Obviously, human society would not be possible if every subject did as he pleased in opposition to every other subject. This does not mean that freedom and individualism need be suppressed. It only means that both freedom and conformity should have reasonable limits. Finding the reasonable middle ground is always a work in progress.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby James S Saint » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:29 am

Value Ontology needs dimensions.

A dimension is formed via chain dependency and independence of other dimensions.

Distance is formed by the concern of how many (or how much) similar concern there is between one point and another.

Value Dimension A = +value type A is closer or further on a chain of events/concerns that adds value A, while -value type A is closer or further on a chain of events/concerns that detracts value A and is necessarily independent of Dimension B.

What are the independent values and thus dimensions?

I would think they should be formed around the inherent values that comprise basic life necessities. Much like in physics, there can be a multitude of dimension sets; Cartesian, spherical polar,.. But to form an actual ontology, an basic understanding for reality, such dimensions, much like space, must be conceived and specified.

What is the minimum set of independent elements of a life for it to be called a life? By increasing or decreasing the firmness of those elements, value dimensions are formed.

I am thinking possibly;

) Discernment
) Precision
) Versatility
) Knowledge/Memory
) Mass/Body
) Vitality/Spirit/Speed


Each of those (just as examples) can be measured on an infinite linear scale and each is independent of the others. By increasing any or all of them, the entity gains "strength" to sustain itself.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:25 am

James S Saint wrote:I am thinking possibly;

) Discernment
) Precision
) Versatility
) Knowledge/Memory
) Mass/Body
) Vitality/Spirit/Speed

All of these.
The question becomes: how to increase these forms of valuing-power.
This is where philosophy turns from theory into practice.

“I would believe only in a God that knows how to dance.”
- Nietzsche

For 2.5 years VO has been allowed to grow as a wildfire, setting minds on fire, burning away a lot of unwelcome bridges, but I can not expand my understanding any further without including real life elements that have been instrumental in attaining VO. I could never have understood the concept of self-valuing without knowing myself in the process of increasing momentum, harmony and magnetism, "selfhood".

Philosophy is not meant for statues hidden in the corner of their rooms.
It's meant for those who have a power that is too great to share it except through its own celebration.
It is for power that becomes obscene if it isn't sanctified with energy. Those who have the destroy in order to create.

Each of those (just as examples) can be measured on an infinite linear scale and each is independent of the others. By increasing any or all of them, the entity gains "strength" to sustain itself.

Yes! But let it be understood that we don't need to measure and map these individually in order to increase them.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby James S Saint » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:52 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
James S Saint wrote:I am thinking possibly;

) Discernment
) Precision
) Versatility
) Knowledge/Memory
) Mass/Body
) Vitality/Spirit/Speed

All of these.
The question becomes: how to increase these forms of valuing-power.
This is where philosophy turns from theory into practice.

“I would believe only in a God that knows how to dance.”
- Nietzsche

If it helps you to increase any one of those, it has positive value.
If not, it has negative value.

Dancing is moving with the beat and flow of the noise with its ups and downs, positive and negatives.
Growing is collecting the positives and letting the negatives go their way.
That is exactly how physics particles, minds, economies, and governments alike, grow and "gain momentum".

Buy a microscope and you don't have to guess so much about what is in your water.
Examine the logic behind what you are told and you don't have to guess about who to believe.
Ask for verification from a friend and you don't have to doubt yourself quite as much.

Fixed Cross wrote:
Each of those (just as examples) can be measured on an infinite linear scale and each is independent of the others. By increasing any or all of them, the entity gains "strength" to sustain itself.

Yes! But let it be understood that we don't need to measure and map these individually in order to increase them.

If you want to improve something, learn to measure it.
That is the only thing Science ever added to the knowledge of Man; "measurements", "verification".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:18 am

I disagree entirely that in order to improve or increase one needs to measure. I, for me, just need proper method.

Concerning dance - perhaps,what I mean is related to the eternal walz you mentioned a year ago. Not the same thing surely, but Im not talking about bopping my head or anything disco like - neither twerking or such forms. I mean a subtle control of the nervous system used to increase momentum and magnetism, self-harmony.

The attraction this creates whenever its in public is a side issue, a proof, also - the main thing is to know yourself.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:19 am

And i am not saying measurement is unneccessary in general let alone that dance is sufficient for all goals, of course. Dance is just an example of the body getting involved with the mind.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby James S Saint » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:33 am

Measurement is awareness (in refined detail).
It is a little difficult to dance if unaware of the music, the floor, your feet... and the others around you.
Your dance improves automatically when you become more aware.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:08 pm

Yes, but my point is that this works botg ways. You don't necessarily have to separate those issues.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby James S Saint » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:36 pm

Money grew to be such a grand influence merely because it is a simple means for measuring influence, literally quantizing influence. Once quantized (aka "precisely measured"), small adjustments become the earmark of success. Military might is gained that same way. All elite perfection is gained merely by observing the finer details of what counts.

Each relevant concern can be quantized and thus measured. By carefully watching the small affects upon each measurement, one learns of what it is that is increasing or decreasing his life. By that means, he learns what to avoid and what to pursue. And if he learns, by definition, he succeeds and grows momentum.

In RM:AO there are the issues of;
Clarity (aka awareness and teaching)
Verification (ensuring against corruption)
Instilling (remembering/documenting the situation and seeing that others do)

Anything, no matter how small, that increases each of those, as long as it doesn't also decrease others of them, increases the momentum of a being's existence. Learning to measure them causes them to more automatically, instinctively increase, just as a positive particle automatically grows and ensures its positive nature.

Those are the "dimensions" of Rational Sentience.
Any tools that help measure those dimensions, helps ensure the sentience.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby James S Saint » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:42 pm

I suspect that one of the things that you might be missing is how to make it fun. 8)
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:52 am

Close. Try meaningful.
But also - possible in general.
Before the Light - Tree of Life
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The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby James S Saint » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:44 am

Okay.
"Meaningful to the right part of your mind".
Joy is formed of the inner perception of progress (meaningfulness), even if it is a false perception.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

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