a man amidst mankind: back again to dasein

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Re: a man amidst mankind: back again to dasein

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:23 pm

Yes, we all know that's how leftists like to think of themselves.
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Re: a man amidst mankind: back again to dasein

Postby promethean75 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:45 pm

indeed, and some of them are even liars. oh shit wait. i just had a eureka moment. what's the difference between an opportunistic leftist liar who seeks office only to fatten his own pockets and doesn't give a shit about the workin man, and a capitalist who seeks to maintain conservatism to fatten his own pockets and doesn't give a shit about the workin man? (while also being entirely dependent on him. interesting, that. almost like biting the hand that feeds you, but that would be like comparing a capitalist to a dog... which is a very generous analogy)

yeah so did you see that? it's like 'hey capitalist, what are you bitchin about? these fucksticks are doing the same thing you are, right?' ohhhh i see. suddenly it's 'unethical' to get rich... especially if you're lying while trying to do it. in that case, an honest leftist who admitted he didn't give a shit about the workin man would garner the respect of the capitalist.

and this would work, actually, because we can't indict the capitalist on lying here. he'd have to know what he thinks is ethical is actually not (for several epistemological reasons... and even more pragmatic reasons) in order to be 'lying'. so far, the capitalist is only an imbecile, not a bad guy.

now we've reached a beautiful dilemma. the capitalist isn't a liar (because he's too dumb) but he does not empower the workin man... while the fake-ass leftist is a liar, but empowers the working man.

fuck. now what do we do?
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Re: a man amidst mankind: back again to dasein

Postby iambiguous » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:51 pm

Faust wrote:The "I" is the part that speaks. Some parts of us are unknown to the "I".

Enter: Metaphysics.


Metaphysics: the branch of philosophy that examines the fundamental nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, between substance and attribute, and between potentiality and actuality

And, if this be the case, then everything --- everything that encompasses the body, everything that encompasses the mind, and everything the encompasses the world around it/"I", can only be entirely explained when we have an understanding -- ontological? teleological? -- of existence itself.

This thread however takes that gap for granted. Just as it makes the presumption that we all have some measure of free-will to actually opt for particular points of view.

Dasein then revolves around "I" in our day to day interactions and the extent to which what we believe to be true about them is able to be demonstrated as in fact true. Call it true objectively. Call it true universally. Call it true empirically. Call it true phenomenologically. Call it true historically, anthropologically, ethnically, culturally, sociologically, politically, economically, psychologically.

It is either a thing or a relationship in sync with what science calls the "laws of nature" out in the either/or world able or not able to be verified or falsified by way of the "scientific method".

Of course science is considerably less concerned with "I" in the is/ought world. With human behaviors said to be virtuous or moral. Here instead any number of philosophers down through the ages have grappled with what in the discipline is called "ethics".

And that's the part I zoom in on in regard to my own understanding of dasein in this thread. That's the part where I focus the beam at the existential juncture of identity, value judgments and political power.

Out in any particular world, in any particular context, understood from any particular point of view. And here I speculate not so much on what philosophers can tell us, but on what [perhaps] they cannot.

But it is only when we take these "intellectual contraptions" down off the scholastic scaffolding and situate the words out in a particular context, out a particular world, can the human condition be explored more substantively.

Or, rather, so it seems to me.
Last edited by iambiguous on Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: a man amidst mankind: back again to dasein

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:53 pm

Liars to who?

You have yet to realize the realization of lying to one's self.

Go, meditate on this. "Nihilism" won't do.
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Re: a man amidst mankind: back again to dasein

Postby iambiguous » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:11 pm

What’s So Simple About Personal Identity?
Joshua Farris asks what you find when you find yourself.

[Lynne Rudder Baker, Distinguished Professor of Philosophy at the University of Massachusetts] identifies persons with what she calls ‘the first-person perspective’. This is the perspective I have of myself, or the perspective you have of yourself. Thus, persons are here not identical to a body or a brain; neither are persons identifiable with a set of memory or character states; instead, persons are identified with a particular perspective.


In other words, as I interpret it, "I" is not reducible down to the body or to the brain, or to a particular set of memories, or to a personality, or to a character. Instead it is embodied in the manner in which they all somehow come together from day to day to produce a "perspective". I think this, I feel that, I choose this, I do that.

Basically, the manner in which most of us think about "I" in the world around us for all practical purposes. Given some measure of autonomy.

And we can think of it this way until someday, someone actually is able to demonstrate why the whole package is reducible down to a specific factor above.

And, in the interim, it still comes down to that which we are in fact able to demonstrate to others is [existentially] the most rational way in which to think, feel, say or do...anything.

In a recent work, Baker puts it like this: “A person is a being with a first-person perspective essentially, who persists as long as her first-person perspective is exemplified” (Naturalism and the First-Person Perspective, 2013, p.149), even though defining personal identity in this way is rather circular, and not very informative for the reader, as Baker acknowledges (p.150). As Baker says in her conclusion, “the first-personal view is a Simple View because it provides no informative criteria of personal identity”


There's no getting around circularity here because however you explain human identity, you come back to certain assumptions you make which are not able to be either verified or falsified definitively. And this must be the case or there would already be an explanation out there that accomplishes precisely that.

Though, sure, if you think there is one, link it to us.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: a man amidst mankind: back again to dasein

Postby iambiguous » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:29 pm

Elastic Selves in the Age of Enhancement
Susana Badiola wonders how technology will help us understand our selves.

Scientists and futurists are spreading before a dazzled public all kinds of astonishing prospects of humans in the near future being deliberately transformed through the use of technology. Through advanced medicine and by integrating technology into our lives and our very bodies, we may soon be stronger, healthier, longer-lived, happier, with more acute senses, and capabilities undreamed of by our ancestors. Such technological enhancements of ourselves will be our own conscious choices. What will that mean for our sense of self?


The technological self?

Assuming of course that, using the technology currently available to them, neuroscientists are not able to rule out entirely at least some capacity on our part to freely choose among the options made available.

Given some measure of autonomy here, "I" is about to enter that brave new world in which the human biological self itself is reconfigured into a kind of memetic self predicated on those qualities that any particular historical or cultural community value the most.

Of course this part...

...we may soon be stronger, healthier, longer-lived, happier, with more acute senses, and capabilities undreamed of by our ancestors...

...is one thing. But it might well become another thing altogether if science is able to reconfigure the mind's "I" so as to instill characteristics and behaviors more in sync with one political narrative rather than another.

What sort of behaviors should be encouraged if all it takes is tweaking the brain at or around birth?

Then this part:

Old questions such as ‘What are we?’ or ‘What makes us be who we are?’ still resonate through contemporary philosophy. The conviction of being oneself obstinately remains despite all theoretical attempts to dilute it. Phenomenologists take the experiencing self as a given, as a starting point. Others feel intellectual discomfort with substantive notions of self, and explain my feeling of being me either as an illusion or as a social construction. The conclusion that ‘the self within’ is an illusion caused by some grammatical, psychological or epistemological mistake is not exclusive to philosophers; neuroscientists and artificial intelligence theorists explain it away as being the result of complex systems, carbon based or otherwise.


What might science be able to pin down here more definitively? Whole new ways to grasp the phenomenological "I"? Will a "self within" be discovered? Will there be ways to determine what the optimal self might be? And ways to bring that about in the really and truly brave new world of childhood indoctrination? The "mass me"?

Or, instead, will it be discovered that the mass me is just the wholly determined me spread out among all of Earth's inhabitants?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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