A Descent into the Maelström

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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby lizbethrose » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:31 am

It seems to me that a philosophical maelstrom would be like latching onto certain beliefs and never letting go--never believing anything other than what you believe--which could suck you down into an abyss of close-mindedness and intellectual suffocation. A philosophic maelstrom could be a political ideology, for example--or the offshoot of that, an adherence to what may not be 'true' (conspiracy theories; belief in what 'your party' says, despite the proofs otherwise.) It could be a religious ideology, as in Evangelical Christianity or Islamism. It could be an economic ideology, as in capitalism vs. liberalism.

It means, to me, to be logic-tied to one idea only. It means that only your ideas are correct and everyone else should embrace your ideas.
"Be what you would seem to be - or, if you'd like it put more simply - never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."
— Lewis Carroll
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby eyesinthedark » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:45 am

It kind of fucking reminds of Lyotard's metanarratives, like.
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby eyesinthedark » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:48 am

Liz is soooooo status quo, it hurts. I say anticonspiracism is a negative maelstrom.
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby lizbethrose » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:02 am

I'm sooooooo sorry if I offend you; but I don't know what you mean. Please explain.
"Be what you would seem to be - or, if you'd like it put more simply - never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."
— Lewis Carroll
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby eyesinthedark » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:04 am

@Moreno Well, I've thought about the various philosophical dichotomies, and I think there's truth in all of them. I mean, come on, egoism vs altruism, you'd have to be a fucking moron to think man is completely egoistic or altruistic. These dichotomies are obsolete.. passe. Absolutism/Relativism, Objectivism/Subjectivism, I can probably prove the truth is more/less in the middle, across the board.
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby eyesinthedark » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:17 am

i apologize to lizbeth and anyone else i offended last night, had a bit too much of the bubbly.
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby anon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:23 pm

eyesinthedark wrote:The way I'm using your word is: maelstrom = monotruth.

Right, but then you're saying that any critique of monotruth is itself a monotruth. That's a philosophical perversion.
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"The bombs we plant in each other are ticking away." - Edward Yang

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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby anon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:44 pm

lizbethrose wrote:It seems to me that a philosophical maelstrom would be like latching onto certain beliefs and never letting go--never believing anything other than what you believe--which could suck you down into an abyss of close-mindedness and intellectual suffocation. A philosophic maelstrom could be a political ideology, for example--or the offshoot of that, an adherence to what may not be 'true' (conspiracy theories; belief in what 'your party' says, despite the proofs otherwise.) It could be a religious ideology, as in Evangelical Christianity or Islamism. It could be an economic ideology, as in capitalism vs. liberalism.

It means, to me, to be logic-tied to one idea only. It means that only your ideas are correct and everyone else should embrace your ideas.

As I thought about the idea more I got more clarity about its specificity. I think a maelstrom in the way I'm conceiving it can only be a philosophical position. It is not just devotion to an ideology like you would find in religion or politics. It must be unfalsifiable, but it also must possess a person's mind in some way. Not any unfalsifiable belief is a maelstrom, and not any absolutism or fixed belief is a maelstrom. I do agree with your partial description that it is "to be logic-tied to one idea only".

A philosophical maelstrom begins with mistaking a description for a discovery - it is about making a truth out of a description, and then submitting to that "truth" and even obsessing over it.
"Distraction is the only thing that consoles us for our miseries, and yet it is itself the greatest of our miseries." - Blaise Pascal

"The bombs we plant in each other are ticking away." - Edward Yang

"To a fly that likes the smell of putrid / Meat the fragrance of sandalwood is foul. / Beings who discard Nirvana / Covet coarse Samsara's realm." - Saraha
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby anon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:55 pm

eyesinthedark wrote:@Moreno Well, I've thought about the various philosophical dichotomies, and I think there's truth in all of them. I mean, come on, egoism vs altruism, you'd have to be a fucking moron to think man is completely egoistic or altruistic. These dichotomies are obsolete.. passe. Absolutism/Relativism, Objectivism/Subjectivism, I can probably prove the truth is more/less in the middle, across the board.

Is it in the middle though? Do each of these positions (absolutism, relativism, objectivism, subjectivism, etc.) actually sensibly mark a territory of some sort that truth is inbetween?
"Distraction is the only thing that consoles us for our miseries, and yet it is itself the greatest of our miseries." - Blaise Pascal

"The bombs we plant in each other are ticking away." - Edward Yang

"To a fly that likes the smell of putrid / Meat the fragrance of sandalwood is foul. / Beings who discard Nirvana / Covet coarse Samsara's realm." - Saraha
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby phyllo » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:02 pm

It must be unfalsifiable, but it also must possess a person's mind in some way.
Determinism is falsifiable. You only need to show that truly random processes exist. If those random processes take place in the mind, then free will is possible.
A philosophical maelstrom begins with mistaking a description for a discovery
Discovery and description are closely related. One could say that a discovery is a special kind of description. No matter what, you have to describe what you discover.
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby anon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:06 pm

phyllo wrote:
It must be unfalsifiable, but it also must possess a person's mind in some way.
Determinism is falsifiable. You only need to show that truly random processes exist. If those random processes take place in the mind, then free will is possible.
A philosophical maelstrom begins with mistaking a description for a discovery
Discovery and description are closely related. One could say that a discovery is a special kind of description. No matter what, you have to describe what you discover.

It's impossible to show if something is truly random.

I mean't discovery in a certain way - I meant a metaphysical discovery. I can discover a new plant species, but that's not what we're discussing here. We're talking about taking descriptions to be truths.
"Distraction is the only thing that consoles us for our miseries, and yet it is itself the greatest of our miseries." - Blaise Pascal

"The bombs we plant in each other are ticking away." - Edward Yang

"To a fly that likes the smell of putrid / Meat the fragrance of sandalwood is foul. / Beings who discard Nirvana / Covet coarse Samsara's realm." - Saraha
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby phyllo » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:25 pm

It's impossible to show if something is truly random.
I was thinking in the statistical sense.
We're talking about taking descriptions to be truths.
Are not all truths just descriptions?
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby anon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:25 pm

phyllo wrote:
We're talking about taking descriptions to be truths.

Are not all truths just descriptions?

Sounds about right.
"Distraction is the only thing that consoles us for our miseries, and yet it is itself the greatest of our miseries." - Blaise Pascal

"The bombs we plant in each other are ticking away." - Edward Yang

"To a fly that likes the smell of putrid / Meat the fragrance of sandalwood is foul. / Beings who discard Nirvana / Covet coarse Samsara's realm." - Saraha
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby eyesinthedark » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:29 pm

Right, but then you're saying that any critique of monotruth is itself a monotruth. That's a philosophical perversion.

You're right, it is perverse.
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby eyesinthedark » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:31 pm

Is it in the middle though? Do each of these positions (absolutism, relativism, objectivism, subjectivism, etc.) actually sensibly mark a territory of some sort that truth is inbetween?

They do and they don't.
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby anon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:57 pm

eyesinthedark wrote:
Is it in the middle though? Do each of these positions (absolutism, relativism, objectivism, subjectivism, etc.) actually sensibly mark a territory of some sort that truth is inbetween?

They do and they don't.

Perversely, perhaps, I'm on board with that.
"Distraction is the only thing that consoles us for our miseries, and yet it is itself the greatest of our miseries." - Blaise Pascal

"The bombs we plant in each other are ticking away." - Edward Yang

"To a fly that likes the smell of putrid / Meat the fragrance of sandalwood is foul. / Beings who discard Nirvana / Covet coarse Samsara's realm." - Saraha
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Re: A Descent into the Maelström

Postby DAMNATION » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:41 am

in a way it makes me wanna think anything is possible =D>
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