Wisdom over objectivity

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Wisdom over objectivity

Postby Jakob » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:37 pm

Argument aimed at the conclusion that philosophy is the natural ruler of science

If we assume that only objective laws effectively describe reality to us, then only the context where we may apply such laws should be referred to as reality.

Since we have not succeeded in applying objective laws to explain for example the emergence of life or the mechanism behind gravity, gravity and life do not theoretically belong to reality. They stand outside, beneath objective reality - the most we can say is that they are givens on which reality is based.

I would rather use the word reality to describe these unexplained givens; this means that objective lawmaking takes the back seat, as one of the many a subjective perspectives.

Behind the wheel I would rather see a less disinterested mind. The objective observer might calmly steer the the world of knowledge towards a rock, while illuminating us to the truth: "apparently we are crashing into a rock."

Philosophy departs from the opposite perspective: we do not want the barrenness of generalized meaning, we want the truth, our truth, the most noble truth - at all costs.

To attain this, the first thing to be subjected to our will is objectivity. It exist, but only to serve us, in places where its assets permit it. These are necessarily humble places, territory of the most common values.
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Re: Wisdom over truth

Postby rackedrick » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:59 pm

I'd have to agree. Science doesn't really create a world of meaning and the existential person wants to get to meaning, so science isn't good enough. You might as well go for something greater, even if there isn't. I'd rather keep hoping for something that matters than throw my bunch in with science. Plus science isn't all that objective. I'd also have to say that although we often say that we would do anything for wisdom this isn't completely true. There a certain point where everyone draws the line.
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Re: Wisdom over truth

Postby Jakob » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:59 pm

rackedrick wrote:I'd have to agree. Science doesn't really create a world of meaning and the existential person wants to get to meaning, so science isn't good enough. You might as well go for something greater, even if there isn't. I'd rather keep hoping for something that matters than throw my bunch in with science. Plus science isn't all that objective. I'd also have to say that although we often say that we would do anything for wisdom this isn't completely true. There a certain point where everyone draws the line.

Do you feel that you need to hope for something that matters, rather than create it?
I know it is difficult, especially for a sceptic, a thinker, to create meaning - to "lose oneself" in a creation, to really believe. But this is the only possibility, the only way in which the science of objectivity doesn't kill all dynamic and fertility by grouping all things under equal laws
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Re: Wisdom over objectivity

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:59 pm

In the summer of 1975, Nietzsche wrote:

"Science establishes the course of nature, but it can never command humans. Inclination, love, lust, unlust, exaltation, exhaustion - none of this is known to science. That which man lives and experpiences, he has to interpret from something; on the basis of which he values it. Religions have their power therein, that they are value-measurers, measures. In myth, occurrences appear differently. Characteristic of the interpretations of religions is that they measure human life according to human ideals." ~ 6[41]

If we understand this, we realize the problem of the death of God. The mythical narrative can not remain absent from our world - it would mean the death of humanity. And not in terms of its surpassing - just of its elimination. We need this medicin, we are perishing of a lack of love for ourselves, a lack of respect for our experience that forbids us to value what we are inclined to value.

With the death of God, we have stopped believing in ourselves. Naturally then that man has proceeded to invent new Gods, dig up ancient ones, seek out Eleusian joys with the help of stimulants, found exaltation in music and fiction, in fact spends his entire life compensating for the lack of meaning the amputation of myth from truth has caused him.
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Re: Wisdom over objectivity

Postby Abstract » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:54 am

Seems to me philosophy is basically the study of everything...in a general way or by logic rather than more specifically through say mathematics or something...I think there is good in both Professing, and Broad study...too much of either can be bad...Then some might say philosophy is the balance between the two..if so perhaps it is the best...did not most sciences stem from philosophy anyways...

Of course a philosopher most commonly thinks philosophy is the best...typically any man of any profession thinks that profession is the best...
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Re: Wisdom over truth

Postby finishedman » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:09 am

Jakob wrote:Do you feel that you need to hope for something that matters, rather than create it?
I know it is difficult, especially for a sceptic, a thinker, to create meaning - to "lose oneself" in a creation, to really believe.

Hope is a token of the inability to get results wanted. Why would meaning be wanted or created? That's a dead end street. Man has been down that path and failed due the deliberateness of the attempt to find meaning. You will find the meaning if you do not deliberately seek it out. Meaning is already operating there in nature. Setting meaning as a far off goal and pursuing it is to lose sight of the meaning there is in everything.

The constant preoccupation with renouncing a self (that really is not there) is a sure fire way to be lost forever. Belief in a purpose that will create true meaning is only a replacement of some other belief and when that doesn't work the replacement process continues. Reform breeds futher reform. There is no way out.
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Re: Wisdom over objectivity

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:26 pm

Pezerculos wrote:Libraries are where philosophers work. Cities are where they touch reality.

The framework for what we need is already in place. Big libraries in cities. They are frightfully underused anyways.

Just thinking out loud here, I got bit by the politics bug and I want to see where it goes. I will confine these thoughts to this thread. One should never underestimate how poisonous politics can be, even among good friends with clear thought and honest intentions.

I do want to clarify that what is going on in Pentad is still, to my mind, about health. We have regressed in many things we have attained in these past weeks, but as I said in another thread, whatever work we get done we are doomed to, it is there like a rock.


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As so often with disagreements, in the end they seem to be caused largely by differences in understanding of some operative term.

What the hell is politics? I think you're right, the notion could destroy our world here if we let it run rampant, and I will accept responsibility and cool down on this subject. But first I want to offer my definition of it:

Politics is the organization of perspectives around necessity.



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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeThu Sep 17, 2015 10:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Machiaveli said that a prince who needs to conquer a space needs support from ressource rich people in that space.

Now, Machiavelli lived in times where people were few and ressources scarce, so powerful classes were pretty homogenous.

Let's say one sets out to conquer in terms of opening or operating a truly philosophical library. Who does one win over, and how?

To my mind comes first the how and then the who, but I will set out first the who and then the how: old hippies with money, on a lower level any form of hipster with money (hippies have loving souls, and loyal). The how is obviously, one of the things libraries curate, art. In essence, good fucling movies and a nice space to watch them.

Art is the one place where humanity at large and philosophers can see eye to eye.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeThu Sep 17, 2015 10:49 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sure, I think this thread is a good place to fight it out.

Politics is that, sure. But that is theory, fleshed in it gets a lot hairier.

When I say politics, I think occupation of spaces and comandeering of ressources. Machiavelli taken to the universal plain.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeThu Sep 17, 2015 11:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezer wrote:
Sure, I think this thread is a good place to fight it out.

Politics is that, sure. But that is theory, fleshed in it gets a lot hairier.

When I say politics, I think occupation of spaces and comandeering of ressources.

That's what it is in most cases.

That's what it is here, as well.

Quote :
Machiavelli taken to the universal plain.

Sauwelios regards our time as the end of a Machiavellian age. That might be relevant here - an age he sees as marked by the desire to dominate nature of of a fear of it.

The 'Nietzschean age' he envisions would turn us back to nature.

He sees this as the return to cruelty and inequality. I vehemently disagree with him there, as I find the present times unimaginably cruel and inequality is more powerful than it ever was. I rather want to return to a time where humans regard each other as well as animals with a rudimentary form of acknowledgement-of-being.

The farther the human 'race' separates itself cognitively from the atrocities it commits on animals and less fortunate, invisible humans (the vast majority) , the crueler and weaker it becomes. The uglier it becomes, the more wretched.

If cruelty means to be harsher on ourselves, to force ourselves to know what we're doing, then yes. If it means growing even more disinterested in the pain of creatures under our influence, then count me out.

I will repeat, I identify more with most cats than with most humans. It is a matter of self-valuing, of movement, of a way of being in the world; I am happiest, like a cat is, on the prowl, alone, hunting in some way, going very fast without a destination except to hone my skills, and the vast majority of occupations the human species is concerned with are unhealthy for me and unendurable.

I don't know how heavily I should stress this; humans are not a single species. Most humans do not think, are not wider in scope than animals, they are only animals who are trying to forget that fact.

Thought is so extremely rare. And I experience it as something rather pan-natural than human; thought, for me, is the merging of human being with the organic world and its nonlinear laws.

Whenever I see dolphins interacting with humans it is inescapably clear that the dolphin is the one who is reflecting on what is happening, and the human is engaged in some blissfully infantile mind-state; he senses the animal is taking care of his soul, his wounded psyche, his thus far failed attempt at being.

Quote :
Machiaveli said that a prince who needs to conquer a space needs support from ressource rich people in that space.

Yes,

Quote :
Now, Machiavelli lived in times where people were few and ressources scarce, so powerful classes were pretty homogenous.

Let's say one sets out to conquer in terms of opening or operating a truly philosophical library. Who does one win over, and how?

To my mind comes first the how and then the who, but I will set out first the who and then the how: old hippies with money, on a lower level any form of hipster with money (hippies have loving souls, and loyal). The how is obviously, one of the things libraries curate, art. In essence, good fucling movies and a nice space to watch them.

Yes!

Quote :
Art is the one place where humanity at large and philosophers can see eye to eye.

Yes.

Your proposals resonate with what I've been thinking since reading Nietzsche in my early twenties. This is politics.



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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeThu Sep 17, 2015 11:43 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
So I can't self-value as "human". Can't do it. Too much that is antithetical to my being goes by that name.

If I were to do that little meditation, just hold these two concepts in my mind, "selfvaluing" and "human", within seconds I am imagining myself shooting crack into my neck on a garbagebelt amidst the severed heads and limbs of tortured creatures. That's the general 'feeling' I get from 'humanity'.

If I do the same with "self-valuing" and "cat" my organism responds. I become alert and flexible, enter a state of flux and sharp consciousness.

Cats are more homogenous, like philosophers. You can't fool them about what they are, also like philosophers. Modern non-philosophers are often more like dogs than like cats. They see their being confirmed in beings they sense superior. They are indiscriminate in their tastes, and are not able to be at peace in solitude.



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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeThu Sep 17, 2015 11:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I find machiavelli wonderful because there is no bullshit about ideology or broad concepts of humans this or that.

"Fate is like a woman. You have to slap her into shape sometimes." Sounds bad, but as far as I'm concerned, concerning any philosophical fate, this is true. He speaks before that of princes who feel they are fated to rule.

I agree with you. I just don't think politics is about principles. We have our principles. Politics is about getting 'er done.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeThu Sep 17, 2015 11:51 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
By the way, my library would cater to Sawelios's conception, which I find philosophically sound (if more inclined to your conception), because it caters only to the one thing we've been talking about: philosophy given its proper place in society. The libraries, of course, and if I achieve only one in my lifetime it will be a win, would only be a very small beginning.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeThu Sep 17, 2015 12:01 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The thing that concerns US about humans is that it englobes the people whose net the management of ressources pertinent to us covers.

What Capable has said lately has nothing to do with this, because that is high philosophy proper. This is politics.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeThu Sep 17, 2015 12:10 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Since it is utterly useless to expect anyone else to relate to animals in this way I am weird, to my mind this is related to the fact that I have Venus on 27 degrees Pisces, the degree Ptolemy considered its place of exaltation; it is known of such people, Venus in Pisces in general, that they feel the emotions of many types of creatures and love without categories. Of course I am selective, but not in terms of species. The only woman I ever truly was in love with is animal both in intolerable sweetness and blind rage, and she regarded me, somewhat to her socialite discomfort (women can get away with more animal ness than men, as all men love animal women an fear/envy animal men), as an animal, a young lion, an this is why we could not be together in the world of humans, an why my heart is still very heavy. When we make BTL, I was living with her in Vienna, where earlier the thought had come to me, but because of the condition that we would only be happy in human society if both of us were at the peak of our energy - we'd literally whirl in dance so violently no one could come close, a kind of dervish-waltz...yes that is what it was. The theory did not come out of nothing, or out of one human - it was born of a passion that involve someones death an nearly cost me my own life. It has nothing to do with "humanity" except with the impossible nature of this category; consider my philosophy to mean at heart the denial of human homogeneity, the renunciation of connection to all humans, and the immersion into the natural world in general. Goethe is an example of the sort of human I understand. Nietzsche of the sort lifts my heart in awe, which is my way of feeling gratitude. Napoleon i a man to whom I can only relate in terms of machinery of merciless vengeance. All of his work was vengeance on the ones who tried to do away with the phenomenon 'France'. We see the nature of that pathos in the continuation of his work, the reign of terror. Forcibly extended blades of the sharpest metal and absolute disregard for human life, this is what one feels when someone threatens France; the name not coincidentally meaning both free an honest. The language quite literally evolve due to a chance in woman-worship; as the minstrels seceded from the Mary-cults, French separated from what would become Italian; the guttural sound, no doubt influenced by the Moors who were finally prevented from taking Europa by the French, came along with a mortalizing of the ideal.



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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeThu Sep 17, 2015 12:29 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezer wrote:
I find machiavelli wonderful because there is no bullshit about ideology or broad concepts of humans this or that.

"Fate is like a woman. You have to slap her into shape sometimes."

I love it. Yes, he's the first rational political thinker since Caesar Augustus. A different paradigm altogether, but August knew how to whip fate into shape and wasn't modest about it. I suppose his immodesty was the reason Caesar entrusted his will to him. At least let someone roll with it. I think dice games rule high politics and the gods rule dice games.

Quote :
Sounds bad, but as far as I'm concerned, concerning any philosophical fate, this is true. He speaks before that of princes who feel they are fated to rule.

I agree with you. I just don't think politics is about principles. We have our principles. Politics is about getting 'er done.

So it is about principles, it's just not only about them. Philosophy is the quest for principle; politics born of philosophy only after principle has been secured, attained, collected, dealt out, made known, made current; I forget it some time but this principle, being is valuing in terms of self-valuing, is the first principle that is truly without condition. It is assuredly born of "Il n'y a pas de hors-texte" as it is of "Diese Welt ist der Wille zur Macht – und nichts außerdem!" ; the two are understood as designating the same thing; interpretation. But power designates what 'text' does not. 'Text' is meant to be absolutely neutral. "power" as absolutely active. 'Value' is both.

It just happens to fucking be what it is all about. C'mon. I can get so angry with every philosopher who has simply brushed past that fact - how the hell do men think that anything outside of them can be understood without their acknowledgement of the actual condition they're in? It is so human, and so far below animal, and so far below reason. Humans are weird. So yes, I am all for a hipster slash old hippy paradigm - I was always for this. A 5 foot flag of Jim Morrison is hanging three feet away from me. I didn't put it there, but I chose to let it hang there when I moved in. A heroic time, the people with Pluto in Leo. You can't force what you are - only an astrologer can know himself objectively. He does need to also be a philosopher though.

And of course he can not objectively know himself objectively. But he can see the star in his own eye.



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Yeah, they really were the shit. It separated into hipsters and rappers, offshooting into reggae when mixed with dub (rap's natural parents), and the politically correct silly loved was exorziced into communism.

The more I think about communism, the more I find it historically useful.

Anyway, old hippies with money have the power to appreciate and the decadence to turn a blind eye to what they trully don't care about. Hippsters are more volatile, secondary in this quest, and rappers are too happy to collaborate. The brave part of old hippy.

I like this transcendence of human. I would build a house for it.

And I don't hold the philosopher's high-nosedness against them. It does mean that they will have to endure. If humans are weird, it is because we're weak. My breakthrough just happens to be that I self-value and value pride of the concecuences of such weakness. I would dare to call it a superior ability to need.
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Quote :
Yeah, they really were the shit. It separated into hipsters and rappers, offshooting into reggae when mixed with dub (rap's natural parents), and the politically correct silly loved was exorziced into communism.

The more I think about communism, the more I find it historically useful.

Anyway, old hippies with money have the power to appreciate and the decadence to turn a blind eye to what they trully don't care about. Hippsters are more volatile, secondary in this quest, and rappers are too happy to collaborate. The brave part of old hippy.

I like this transcendence of human. I would build a house for it.

Voila.

Quote :
And I don't hold the philosopher's high-nosedness against them. It does mean that they will have to endure.

As the king said, "¿Por qué no te callas?"

But no, I liked Chavez immensely.

Our ship sails on two tides; aristocracy and communism. An aristocracy of values, a communism of intelligence.
Value ontology suggests politics quite 'communist' in the sense of communes, not in the sense of a machinal collective. Tribes rather than global identification, that is to say communion with the soil and the stars and not with the tv.
but in these times, such a privilege is nothing less than high-aristocracy. The right to live in community, free from tax, television and "care", this is unimaginable. In a community there are no taxes, only products and hierarchies. There is no agent standing between the physics and the metaphysics; the two are integrated. Self-valuing brings the terms so close to each other that the physics is metaphysically traceable, and the metaphysics respond to concrete stimuli with absolute responsiveness, there is no 'aethir' anymore. The medium is the content.
The philosopher learns of the bad medicine of his nigh nosed-ness in infancy. In the end it dissolves into mercy somehow, but it's a requirement, it's what keeps him isolated from politicking.

High Politics is what we're after, temples. Libraries as temples is not a bad idea at all. It's hyper conventional and yet never been done politically.



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There should be no revolution, it would be done with the techniques of the system. To avoid the crazies.

"I rather want to return to a time where humans regard each other as well as animals with a rudimentary form of acknowledgement-of-being."

This is my end-game; except I don't see it as that much of a return, too much will have changed. The funk is in there, it is the boundary between our weakness and our will to power. This stage would be like a castle stocking up for a siege: the siege of truth and funk.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeThu Sep 17, 2015 1:37 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezer wrote:
There should be no revolution, it would be done with the techniques of the system. To avoid the crazies.

Agreed,

Quote :
"I rather want to return to a time where humans regard each other as well as animals with a rudimentary form of acknowledgement-of-being."

This is my end-game; except I don't see it as that much of a return, too much will have changed.

Yes, this too is true - there is no point to return to.

Quote :
The funk is in there, it is the boundary between our weakness and our will to power. This stage would be like a castle stocking up for a siege: the siege of truth and funk.

Now you're talking fully political. This gives me faith. Yes. it sounds reasonable to assess it like that.




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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeFri Sep 18, 2015 4:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Big library v small bookstore

A big library is a more comprehensive politics. Yes, it's necessary.

Small bookstores provide a more serious study environment, but it lacks ambition.

Rather, some kind of subsidiary system, where philosophers must prove themselves in the smaller units to gain entry into the libraries proper. These smaller units promise all kind of possibility, including high altitude observatories where big library philosophers could retreat and old sages hide away. I see cows and fresh cream.

Back to funding. Big libraries have structural funding mechanisms, but they also rely largely on head librarians' initiatives. Why would old hippies care about big libraries? A small cinema... I'm sure there must be some existing trend for libraries as cultural centers.

Community relations would matter.

What about facilites for philosophers proper?

I think this is where the temple comes in, or the walkways at least. A backdoor garden/office complex. Philosophers would take turns attending library-goers. This is raw, will get back to it.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeFri Sep 18, 2015 7:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I'm starting to think that zero revolution would be impossible. The shift would be big enough to require...

A marketing innitiative.

I'm thinkin': "why are libraries boring? Bring good movies to libraries!"

Get the right peole excited and confident enough to crowd in on another group's game.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeFri Sep 18, 2015 7:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"Culturaly important does not equal boring!"

I believe this is both true and bubbling under the surface of a lot of people who, to avoid breaking something they don't understand, go along with the paradigms. And I don't mean "Transformers" live movies crowd, either.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeSat Sep 19, 2015 6:39 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Recruitment would be on two fronts. Politicians and philosopher. Maybe a third: artists.

On the philosophers' side, something like: "young philosopher: come out of the closet! We have a place for you."

Maybe too early for this.

I wrote not too long ago that a University's only role should be to provide students with the tools they can't find on their own. If we replace tools with the more honest books and space and university with library, our scope would even go beyond philosophers who would always remain the heads. This is going too far yet also, but it informs us of what this politics could want.
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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeSat Sep 19, 2015 9:23 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezer wrote:
Recruitment would be on two fronts. Politicians and philosopher. Maybe a third: artists.

No politicians, we can't have the school tainted with such experience; we must ultimately breed politicians, that's the only way. Artists should be the primary focus group, old hippies are artistic souls - and philosophers - many of them will be enemies.

Quote :
On the philosophers' side, something like: "young philosopher: come out of the closet! We have a place for you."

Maybe too early for this.

Boys who consider themselves philosophers are often just politicians with nicer scarves or dirtier socks. We should mainly call out to the quite endless numbers of truly creative people, who, stealing Parodites outstaning metaphor in the Pentad, can hear the deafening growing of seeds.

Quote :
I wrote not too long ago that a University's only role should be to provide students with the tools they can't find on their own. If we replace tools with the more honest books and space and university with library, our scope would even go beyond philosophers who would always remain the heads. This is going too far yet also, but it informs us of what this politics could want

I think an environment of books reflects Ideation, but does not form its substance. This is the problem with current libraries; all ideas are considered equal. As we discussed on NWO the Israeli Supreme Court has a library in the nook that is accessible only to retired judges. This is the basic model of a philosophical library; it is a form to solidify hierarchy.

Value Ontology is one major tool that mankind could not find 'on their own'. It is primarily this which I imagine having to offer.

Tools and faith. Ultimately faith is simply an all-fitting tool, and value ontology is both the destroyer and creator of faith.



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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeTue Sep 22, 2015 5:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A thought on justice, from Simon Bolivar's Carupano Manifesto:

Bear in mind that Bolivar was still under 30 here. That he was a rich Caracas landowner in times when Napoleon had started to fuck with the Spanish empire, 25 when he took up arms and bellicose from birth, also an orphan.

" ... The destruction of a government, which origin is lost in the obscurity of time: the subversion of established principles: the mutation of customs: the transforming of opinion, and the establishment, in short, of liberty in a country of slaves, is an ouvre so impossible to execute all at once, that is beyond the reach of all human powers, so that our excuse for not having obtained what we desired, is inherent to the cause we follow, because as justice justifies the audacity of having undertaken it, the impossibility of its acquisition qualifies the insuficency of its means. ... "
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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeThu Sep 24, 2015 9:37 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Sauwelios regards our time as the end of a Machiavellian age. That might be relevant here - an age he sees as marked by the desire to dominate nature of of a fear of it.

The 'Nietzschean age' he envisions would turn us back to nature.

He sees this as the return to cruelty and inequality. I vehemently disagree with him there, as I find the present times unimaginably cruel and inequality is more powerful than it ever was. I rather want to return to a time where humans regard each other as well as animals with a rudimentary form of acknowledgement-of-being.

The farther the human 'race' separates itself cognitively from the atrocities it commits on animals and less fortunate, invisible humans (the vast majority) , the crueler and weaker it becomes. The uglier it becomes, the more wretched.

If cruelty means to be harsher on ourselves, to force ourselves to know what we're doing, then yes. If it means growing even more disinterested in the pain of creatures under our influence, then count me out.

To me cruelty means joyful identification with the cause of suffering. This is the opposite of a cognitive separation. Awareness is essential to what I mean. Likewise for inequality: it's worthless without discrimination.

In his ''Note on the Plan of Nietzsche's _Beyond Good and Evil_'', Strauss wrote:
Timidity and the abolition of fear are justified by the identification of goodness with indiscriminate compassion.

The Nietzschean counterpart to this late-Machiavellian identification is the identification of goodness with discriminately shared joy (compare https://beforethelight.forumotion.com/t ... phism#2976). This justifies the opposite of timidity and the abolition of fear:

On pp. 108-09 of his _Leo Strauss and Nietzsche_, Lampert wrote:
With Nietzsche's new moral postulate, "Be what you are, be eternally what you are," with this unbounded Yes to everything that was and is, philosophy itself comes into the open. The ugly caterpillar metamorphoses; the butterfly spreads its glorious wings. With "pride, daring, courage, self-confidence," with a "will to responsibility" (GM 3.10), the philosophic spirit points to itself, points to its own nobility as a primary ground for gratitude for the goodness of the world.

And again in his ''Note on the Plan of Nietzsche's _Beyond Good and Evil_'', Strauss wrote:
To recognize the crucial importance of cruelty is indispensable if "the terrible basic text homo natura," "that eternal basic text" is again to be seen, if man is to be "re-translated into nature." [...] Nature, the eternity of nature, owes its being to a postulation, to an act of the will to power on the part of the highest nature.



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FIAT·IVSTITIA·ET·PEREAT·MVNDVS
RECVRRAT·NATVRA·ET·EXPELLATVR·FVRCA
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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeFri Sep 25, 2015 1:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I have a question, then. Why aren't we already there? Isn't an act of Machiavelism (maybe you take from him the christian identity he takes on, this is incidental, I think) needed? I would refer you to the first two cycles of pentad. Doesn't governmental AND non-governmental politics lead to more timidity and fear as it stands? The very morality of today?

I sense you suggest some kind of govenrmental politics of the cruelty of imposing the highest nature. I would be curious to hear more, specially about its implementation and also about its nature... How would philosophy fit in? It may very well be that you are not able to answer on this fora. But I wonder these things, most of all if such a govenrment could come to be with the honesty, anti-machivellism it requires from what I understand of your stance.

It has always been a riddle to me (which I think I have finally solved) how can joy need to impose itself?
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PostSubject: Re: Towards A Philosophical Politics Towards A Philosophical Politics Icon_minitimeFri Sep 25, 2015 2:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
S - hmm, I see, i favor that cause too. But i would not call myself cruel for this, maybe i am ut this seems to be an imperfect word.
perhals this is part of the reasin man devises gods , to find the right way of addressing the problematic.

Yes , not unlikely, a god is an entory imagined so as to stand even above the most fortunate human - a way to 'delegate the object of resentment' at the same time as exalting the object of desire. Moviestars and other famous people now are forced to fulfill that rome - a great king fulfills it in other times.

To what degree is jealousy the engine of human societal coherence? To a very great degree, I would say.

In astrology, the 'goddess' Venus rules over this domain, of unequality. She is the essence of unfairness. The cruelty of Mars only follows from her unequality.

I tentatively propose a basic Venus Mars religion for our coming age. Not in the least because the influences are real. This is of course what no western s holar or philosopher has dared to suspect. I dance on their graves and those of their imagined gods. I am superior to them, infinitely, in terms of the gods. Let them suffer and grope in that dark. I will begin making my point embracing my superiority here. This is the first time that such cruelty makes sense to me - I will cut into life.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
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Re: Wisdom over objectivity

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:12 am

Libraries are the sanctified places of the human race.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
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Re: Wisdom over objectivity

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:13 am

The classical library, with books in it n sheet, is per definition the place the technocratic monster has not conquered.

So - whoever owns a library - is a high priest!

Esto.

Magister Templi and as such, so and so on... we are materialists are we not. Breeders.
Start with what we have. Tradition be tradition. No Superman shall be created out of thin Air.

This is why I advocate ice-skating.
All universals be damned, the place is a treasure-trove.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Wisdom over objectivity

Postby Gloominary » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:56 pm

Knowledge is a relationship between the knower and the known.

Philosophy focuses more on the former, science the latter.
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Re: Wisdom over objectivity

Postby Meno_ » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:13 pm

Gloominary wrote:Knowledge is a relationship between the knower and the known.

Philosophy focuses more on the former, science the latter.




That choice of focus may have worked before, but now: minority opinion has to be considered.
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