Determinism

Absolutely!

Me too.

No one is disputing that.

If you want to learn more about this, go to Trick Slattery’s website. He knows more about this than I do. I am only discussing human choice on a macro level. The rest is just theory and is actually getting in the way of practical change for the betterment of all mankind.

breakingthefreewillillusion.com … -freewill/

These are interesting videos regarding compatibilism

youtu.be/VA9jaGBKsmE

youtu.be/lnQ5Eg_PDsU

Hello again. I’m surprised no one has shown any interest since I posted here recently. I thought people would be interested in the subject of free will and determinism, since this is one of the most longstanding debates in philosophy. I would like to converse with anyone interested in this topic.

philosophersmag.com/essays/ … never-ends

It’s ongoing in various threads under tangential titles.

The debate never ends because freewill and determinism are two poles of the same magnet: one can’t exist without the other. We can’t have the voluntary without the involuntary nor the involuntary without the voluntary.

Push determinism and we arrive at freewill; push freewill and we arrive at determinism. The two cannot be separated.

If people are determined, then there are no people, but arbitrary continuations of the deterministic process. If the universe is a mechanism, then so are you. In which case there is no one being pushed around, because no one exists.

On the other hand, you can’t push the universe around because you are it. Freewill can only manifest if there is something that is not under your control, but if everything is you, then how can that be?

It’s not freewill or determinism, but both and neither.

That’s actually not true. The two must be separated because one cancels out the other. Can you not do something and do it at the same time? That’s exactly what you’re saying. We can be free and not free simultaneously. The two are polar opposites.

I don’t get what you’re saying. Are you saying we don’t exist because we’re just part of a deterministic process that eviscerates us as individuals?

I’m not understanding you.

It IS determinism that is true, but the problem is that the conventional definition is not totally accurate. We are led to believe that determinism means we are just puppets on a string. That’s not what I am suggesting.

This part is particularly difficult to wrap our heads around. In a wholly determined universe we exist self-consciously; but we also exist mechanistically only as we ever could have existed.

And that’s just plain weird.

Back again to those hypothetical aliens and the dreams we have.

The hypothetical aliens occupying a segment of the universe where there is a measure of autonomy look down on us going about the business of us making choices. But one of them points out that we are like nature’s wind up dolls. We are doing only what nature compels us to do re nature’s immutable laws of matter. The sense of freedom that we think we have is only an illusion built into human psychology which is merely another adjunct of those immutable laws.

And then dreams. In them, I am convinced that I’m embedded in a real world making real choices. I don’t think that I am just dreaming the events are unfolding. They are actually happening to me “in the moment”.

But they’re not. They are a complete fabrication of my brain in sync with the events that unfold in my waking hours.

But the alien points out that ultimately it’s a distinction without a difference. In that in or out of dreams we think and feel and say and do only that which we could never not think and feel and say and do.

Unless of course that’s not true at all.

On the other hand, I’ll be the first to admit that, if I do possess some measure of free-will, I’m just not thinking this through correctly. And I am certainly not one of those who insist that unless you think about it as I do, you are wrong.

Objectivists I call them.

I don’t understand why it is necessary to think of determinism mechanistically just because we only exist as we ever could have existed, or that we think and say and do only that which we could never not think and feel and say and do. This presupposes that our brain cells are separate from the “I” or “agent” which makes decisions. The conventional definition of determinism implies that external factors force our hand, like dominoes. I don’t subscribe to that definition because we are not wind up dolls, yet we are compelled to do what we do based on our heredity and environment.

In a determined universe, wouldn’t it be more reasonable to presume that our brain cells are wholly in sync with “I”. That “I” is this amazing manifestation of matter having evolved over billions of years into matter able to become aware of itself as matter in the act of becoming aware of itself as matter. But only because there was never any possibilty of it not.

If we see dominoes toppling over onto each other – youtu.be/1QtdPfz_faM – we know that they could never have not toppled over onto each other than as they did.

Well, why can’t the same be said about nature evolving into human brains able to set the dominoes up? We do what we do only because we could not do otherwise. It’s just that unlike the mindless dominoes, “I” is equipped biologically with a psychological component able to convince “I” that something other than what it chose might have unfolded instead. That “I” was free to choose otherwise while in fact [as in our dreams] “I” does what it must.

Again, to me, this is just another rendition of compatibilism. And, sure, it might be more reasonable than the manner in which I think about these things myself here and now. But I just can’t wrap my head around the idea that I am “compelled to do what I do based on my heredity and environment” but that is merely in sync with the wrong definition of determinism.

As though you were ever really free to choose another definition instead.

I agree with you that it is more reasonable to presume that our brain cells are wholly in sync with “I”. The problem is that when people talk about brain cells and synapses doing the causing, it seems to imply that there is no choice that the “I” or “agent” makes as a conscious expression. In so doing, it takes away any responsibility of the agent in having made the choice. I am not referring to “moral” responsibility. For example, if he runs a red light and goes to court, what is he going to say? My brain cells made me do it? Do you think the courts would accept that as an excuse? :-k

That is very true.

You are absolutely correct. But…when you use the word ‘dominoe’ it makes it seem that we are robots. The domino had no choice. It fell because something pushed it. If someone pushed me, I would fall too, which is why the comparison isn’t a perfect analogy. Many philosophers believe that being able to make a choice without constraint is what free will is. That is the compatibilist view.

This is not another rendition of compatibilism. The way compatibilists use the word “free” is a strawman since no one is saying we don’t have the kind of freedom to choose that they are using as a means of making it appear that free will and determinism are compatible. There is a problem with their usage of the term “free” in regard to the kind of free that determinists are disputing, the kind that would allow a person to do otherwise given the same exact situation. In truth, determinism and free will are polar opposites.

We were never really free to do anything other than what we have done, or what we will do, but that does not mean we are not “free” (without constraint) to discuss better solutions to the world’s problems. If determinism is proved to be true (using a more accurate definition), then who would object to that? When I say we are compelled to do what we do based on our heredity and environment, what I mean is that we are the products of our experiences and how we interpret those experiences based on our predispositions, and all of the genetic factors that intermingle with the environment to make us who we are.

A magnet has a south pole and a north pole, but it’s one magnet. We cannot separate the north from the south. If we break the magnet in effort to separate the north from the south, we just create another north and south pole. For the same reason that we cannot have north without south, we also cannot have voluntary without involuntary.

Do you beat your heart or does it happen to you?

Yes, if we are a mechanism, then you are a mechanism. If we rewind the universe and start it again and it comes out the same way, then it’s a mechanism that could only unfold in one way. IF that is true, then beings do not exist. (I don’t believe it’s true. It’s not deterministic, but probabilistic.)

For the same reason a south and north pole cannot be separated, an organism and its environment cannot be separated; it’s all one process. And if it’s all one, then upon what would a free will exert its will? If there is nothing that is not you, then upon what would you exert your will? Conversely, if there is nothing that is you, then from where would this will originate?

A free will requires there be two distinct and unconnected things: a being with a will and something to kick around. But the capability of kicking the thing is evidence that the thing being kicked is part of the kicker. If you don’t believe that, you’ll have some difficult work ahead of you in explaining how a cause influences an effect IF they are not part of the same process.

Cause is distinct and unconnected from the effect, but cause influences effect by _________ mechanism. Fill in the blank. It cannot be done because as soon as you posit some mechanism explaining their interaction, you’ve just illustrated that they were not separate things in the first place. The prerequisite precludes the result. The maximum number of things in any universe is 1.

Well, then what you mean by “determinism”?

Are you saying that determinism is involuntary and free will is voluntary? I’m just trying to clarify your terms.

Of course I don’t beat my heart, but I do make choices.

[i]Excerpt from Decline and Fall of All Evil

However, to prove that
what we do of our own free will, of our own desire because we want to
do it, is also beyond control, it is necessary to employ mathematical
(undeniable) reasoning. Therefore, since it is absolutely impossible
for man to be both dead and alive at the same time, and since it is
absolutely impossible for a person to desire committing suicide unless
dissatisfied with life (regardless of the reason), we are given the ability
to demonstrate a revealing and undeniable relation.

Every motion, from the beating heart to the slightest reflex action,
from all inner to outer movements of the body, indicates that life is
never satisfied or content to remain in one position for always like an
inanimate object, which position shall be termed ‘death.’ I shall now
call the present moment of time or life here for the purpose of
clarification, and the next moment coming up there. You are now
standing on this present moment of time and space called here and
you are given two alternatives, either live or kill yourself; either move
to the next spot called there or remain where you are without moving
a hair’s breadth by committing suicide.

“I prefer…” Excuse the interruption, but the very fact that you
started to answer me or didn’t commit suicide at that moment makes
it obvious that you were not satisfied to stay in one position, which is
death or here and prefer moving off that spot to there, which motion
is life. Consequently, the motion of life which is any motion from
here to there is a movement away from that which dissatisfies,
otherwise, had you been satisfied to remain here or where you are, you
would never have moved to there. Since the motion of life constantly
moves away from here to there, which is an expression of
dissatisfaction with the present position, it must obviously move
constantly in the direction of greater satisfaction.

It should be
obvious that our desire to live, to move off the spot called here, is
determined by a law over which we have no control because even if we
should kill ourselves we are choosing what gives us greater satisfaction,
otherwise we would not kill ourselves. The truth of the matter is that
at any particular moment the motion of man is not free for all life
obeys this invariable law. He is constantly compelled by his nature to
make choices, decisions, and to prefer of whatever options are
available during his lifetime that which he considers better for himself
and his set of circumstances. [/i]

Your reasoning is based on a definition of determinism that I am not using. We have to be on the same page for there to be effective communication.

It is true that if we rewound the universe it would come out the same way, if it is true that man’s will is not free, but you are conflating different definitions which cause confusion. Determinism does not mean we have no say in our choices. It does not mean we are helpless robots. It does not mean we are not responsible for our actions. In fact, with a greater understanding we can see that it increases responsibility, the opposite of what many philosophers believe.

Very true.

The problem is that the definition of determinism, as it is presently defined, is not accurate because it assumes that something is forcing us (like the domino effect) to do what we do, even if it’s against our will. That is where the “I” enters into the equation, for without the agent’s consent, we ARE puppets on a string, but this is not the definition I am bringing to the table.

So are you saying that we can’t allude to a cause for anything?

What I mean is that the definition I am introducing is not the same definition that has monopolized the debate for centuries, preventing the ability to find a resolution between these two concepts.

Yes I think so. The freedom of the will is freedom from deterministic influence.

If you don’t beat your heart, then who does?

Yes I agree. What is your definition?

We can be determined by predetermined causes or we can be determined by probabilistic random causes. To me, either one qualifies as determinism, but usually the former is qualified as being “hard determinism” because there is no possible deviation from the path of unfolding events. If we type 1+1 into a calculator, we always get an output of 2 because it’s just a sequence of switches that always give the same result. But whether a photon travels through the left slit or right slit cannot be known until it happens. John Bell proved that there are no variables somehow hidden in the universe that determines which slit the photon will go through and it is actually a causeless event, so hard determinism is out. If the universe were rewound, it would almost certainly unfold differently.

Me neither, but although I’m free to choose chocolate or vanilla, I can’t choose whether I like chocolate or vanilla. The way I was fashioned determines which flavor I will freely choose. Since I didn’t make myself, I can’t control which I prefer.

Cause influences effect because they are the same event. The cause side of it is just an arbitrary abstraction. If the big bang is the way it happened, then we are still the big bang coming on.

That’s libertarianism. Are you a libertarian?

Whatever force brought me into this world.

I will give you the first three chapters of this book, but I will give you the specific page that explains why the present definition is inadequate.

Quantum mechanics (regardless of which theory; there are many) does not negate determinism on a macro human level. But remember, you are using, by definition, that which can never be reconciled, the way the definition is constructed.

We are not in disagreement here. You cannot control what you prefer any more than you can control what you don’t prefer. The problem is that philosophers actually think this ability to “freely” choose (without constraint of external force) grants us free will. It does not.

They ARE the same event if you want to look at it in that light, but that does mean that we should just sit back and not make choices. That’s called fatalism. Every moment the choice (the effect of the cause) is constantly at play. But the word “cause” is misleading for it assumes something external is making us do what we do, against our will, as if we play no part in decision making at all. That is not the determinism I am trying to communicate.

Again, either I’m missing your point here or your point is missing mine.

I’m not denying that a choice is being made by conscious human beings, only that it is a choice that could never have not been made.

The dominoes don’t choose to topple over. Only the person setting them up makes that happen. But [in a wholly determined universe] the person setting them up is but one of nature’s very own dominoes. There was never any possibilty of her not choosing to set them up. There was never any possibility of her choosing to set them up other than as she does.

She is “responsible” only for doing what she could never have not done.

Back to those autonomous aliens watching it all unfold in the courtroom and pointing out that, indeed, everything said and done, while being thought of by the participants as reflecting their own free will, was never going to be other than what it had to be because Earth is embedded in that part of the unviverse where determinism prevails.

It’s never going to be a pefect analogy because the matter in the domino and the matter in the human brain, while in sync with whatever the immutable laws of all matter might be, are very different kinds of matter.

Living matter itself would seem to be the biggest mystery of all here. How did that happen? Why did that happen? What does it ultimately mean?

But, still, how are both not constrained by those laws of matter?

Okay, you chose to point this out. But that is only true technically in that as one of nature’s dominoes you choose only that which you could have chosen. To me that is always the bottom line. However you “choose” to define or to describe a compatibilist you are still just one of nature’s dominoes.

In other words [for me] it’s back to this:

“Free.” Exactly. The very nature of matter itself wholly restrains us from choosing anything other than what we must.

Unless, of course, that is not true at all.

But the products of our experiences are themselves the products of nature’s immutable laws. And if your life is in the toilet it is comforting to believe it was never not going to be in the toilet. But if your life is bursting at the seams with satisfaction and fulfilment you want to believe instead that this is as a result of the brilliant [and autonomous] choices that you made.

In other words, nope, I’m still not getting your point. But: Is that beyond my control?

Neither the person whose life was in the toilet, or the person whose life was better, had any control over how their life turned out. It’s very true that when times are good, people want to take all the credit. You aren’t getting my point because I haven’t made one yet, other than agreeing that we have no free will. But there’s more to it than just stating that we must do what we must because we cannot not do it.

Progress to me implies something in the way of a teleological component “behind” the universe. The universe is evolving into something that can be described or defined as better than it was before.

And, sans God, how can nature really be understood in that manner?

Imagine hypothetcally human beings are the only conscious entities in the universe. Imagine a gigantic asteroid smashing into earth and wiping us all out.

The universe continues to unfold as before. But can that be described as progress?

Applied globally so as to reflect the fact that man’s will is not free. Thus it would seem that war, crime, and poverty are but inherent components of that.

Note to others: what point do I keep missing here? How is knowledge applied here [by anyone] other than as it must be given a determined universe?

“Free.” Exactly. The very nature of matter itself wholly restrains us from choosing anything other than what we must.

Unless, of course, that is not true at all.

Compelled. John is compelled to set up the dominoes just as the dominoes are compelled to topple over. But somehow with us it’s different. We’re not compelled mindlessly.

If there is more to it, then I will either be compelled to grasp it or not.

Not all events are progressive hypothetically. When I speak of progress I am speaking only of how we can improve the human condition.

They are inherent components of that, but when we apply the knowledge that man’s will is not free (along with the corollary that follows), we veer in a different direction but still within the “inherent components of that”.

Who is saying otherwise iambiguous?

What’s your point?

John is not compelled to set up the dominoes unless he wants (or chooses) to set up the dominoes. The dominoes don’t have an option.

Very true.

I have no idea. What’s a libertarian? Liberty from what? Liberty to do what?

And that force is not the same force that is making your decisions? If not, then how are the forces distinct? If they are distinct, then how do they interact?

Just give me your definition instead of why other definitions are wrong. It would be easier and clearer.

Probabilism is determinism, but determined by random outcomes rather than certain ones.

So it would seem.

Like the Rush song

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

Fatalism posits there is a puppet being kicked around. If determinism is true, then there is no one to be pushed around.

I’m not sure what you mean by determinism.