Nietzsche and Christianity meet Hegel

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Moderator: Only_Humean

Forum rules
Forum Philosophy

Postby Dunamis » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:09 am

No matter the source, your attachment seems the same.
Il mundo è un animal grande e perfetto. – Del senso

The starting-point of critical elaboration is the consciousness of what one really is, and is “knowing thyself” as a product of the historical process to date which has deposited in you an infinity of traces, without leaving an inventory. - Prison Notebooks

Ergo obiectum nostrae mentis est corpus existens, et nihil aliud. - Ethices

deus sum, commutavero. eandem hanc, si voltis, faciam ex tragoedia comoedia ut sit omnibus isdem vorsibus. utrum sit an non voltis? -- Amphitryon

The valley-spirit (gu-shen) does not die, this is called the obscure she-thing (xuan-pin). - Tao-te ching
User avatar
Dunamis
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7361
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:23 am

Postby Jakob » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:29 am

I've got to give Sauwelios a hand here. He's the only one having a point. As I remember, Dunamis, you don't even endorse philosophy, with your neopragmatic master. Can't you get it into your head that Nietzsche is a philosopher for <i>creators</i> like I've explained to you here? You don't seem to take any notice of my patient lessons. I've defeated all your arguments perhaps in a harsh tone, not in Sauwelios literaty style, but your supposed understanding of Nietzsche has been proven useless. For the simple one reason that you have no way of dealing with imagination. Nietzsche's most empowering message is that truth must be created, not believed.

The proud warrior camel Sauwelios does not create truth either right now, but at least he understands the situation. If you would now please try to get somewhere with your dispute. There is much to deal with here.
S, what of the consequences? I feel as much at home in the elements and as little in the people as you, but I like to be lightning, thunder. I know you do as well - at least that you used to be pretty effective at it.

We talked of the crucifiction thing allready once, but if I understand you correctly, you would prefer to be stabbed by some senators. I also think that's a better idea, because you'll have to do things for that to happen.

I'll leave you to your dispute, but please, elevate your taste in truths.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6919
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Postby Sauwelios » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:36 am

Sauwelios wrote:What Dunamis is trying to obscure is the fact that I am quoting Nietzsche in order to make crystal-clear what he meant. I have done so in this thread concerning the Superman and the relation between Folk and State.

On second thought, that excellent post of mine concerning the Superman was in ChimneySweep's Nietzsche: Image over Substance thread.
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
User avatar
Sauwelios
Philosophical Supremacist
 
Posts: 7182
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:07 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Postby Jakob » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:43 am

Sauwelios, you <i>do</i> understand that the only thing you can prove is that </i>you think</i> that Nietzsche meant this or that, don't you?
I keep thinking that you're serious about him actually having meant what you say to himself.
You can ignore this but remember; he who steals an egg also steals a camel.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6919
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Postby Sauwelios » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:59 am

Jakob wrote:Sauwelios, you <i>do</i> understand that the only thing you can prove is that </i>you think</i> that Nietzsche meant this or that, don't you?

"[N]o longer the humble expression, "everything is merely subjective," but "it is also our work! - Let us be proud of it!""
[WP 1059.]
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
User avatar
Sauwelios
Philosophical Supremacist
 
Posts: 7182
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:07 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Postby Jakob » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:02 am

Sauwelios wrote:
Jakob wrote:Sauwelios, you <i>do</i> understand that the only thing you can prove is that </i>you think</i> that Nietzsche meant this or that, don't you?

"[N]o longer the humble expression, "everything is merely subjective," but "it is also our work! - Let us be proud of it!""
[WP 1059.]

I'm reassured.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6919
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Postby Dunamis » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:09 am

Jakob wrote:As I remember, Dunamis, you don't even endorse philosophy, with your neopragmatic master.


Where do you get the idea that I don't endorse philosophy? If you are referring to Rorty, my summation of his ideas was just that, a summation of his ideas. I believe that Faust picked up on that.

Can't you get it into your head that Nietzsche is a philosopher for <i>creators</i> like I've explained to you here?


Creators...or followers. Personally I see no need for a "creator" to have permission (or authority given) from any to create. Creators create.

I've defeated all your arguments perhaps in a harsh tone, not in Sauwelios literaty style, but your supposed understanding of Nietzsche has been proven useless. For the simple one reason that you have no way of dealing with imagination. Nietzsche's most empowering message is that truth must be created, not believed.


From what I've seen, Sauwelios has "defeated" every milk-toast interpretation of Nietzsche that you have presented. His understanding of Nietzsche is acute.

The proud warrior camel Sauwelios does not create truth either right now, but at least he understands the situation.


What he understands is that you don't understand. What he doesn't understand is that he is not creating, but only following.
Il mundo è un animal grande e perfetto. – Del senso

The starting-point of critical elaboration is the consciousness of what one really is, and is “knowing thyself” as a product of the historical process to date which has deposited in you an infinity of traces, without leaving an inventory. - Prison Notebooks

Ergo obiectum nostrae mentis est corpus existens, et nihil aliud. - Ethices

deus sum, commutavero. eandem hanc, si voltis, faciam ex tragoedia comoedia ut sit omnibus isdem vorsibus. utrum sit an non voltis? -- Amphitryon

The valley-spirit (gu-shen) does not die, this is called the obscure she-thing (xuan-pin). - Tao-te ching
User avatar
Dunamis
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7361
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:23 am

Postby kesh » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:31 am

shit
kesh
BANNED
 
Posts: 690
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 6:18 am

Postby Sauwelios » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:31 am

I create order - light in the darkness.
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
User avatar
Sauwelios
Philosophical Supremacist
 
Posts: 7182
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:07 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Last word

Postby MagnetMan » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:18 am

Far too much has been made of what Jesus' last words were. He was a simple carpenter's son who saw a very simple truth: Military might is never right and the only defense is no counter offence.
When too many people saw that same passivist truth and started listening to what else he had to say, he became a threat to the Jewish leadership and they wanted him dead.

The only last words that might truthfully be ascribed to him was:
Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
"There can be no heaven if there is one soul left suffering in hell."
Common Sense Revisited
User avatar
MagnetMan
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2295
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:10 pm
Location: America

Re: Last word

Postby Sauwelios » Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:28 am

MagnetMan wrote:Far too much has been made of what Jesus' last words were. He was a simple carpenter's son who saw a very simple truth: Military might is never right and the only defense is no counter offence.
When too many people saw that same passivist truth and started listening to what else he had to say, he became a threat to the Jewish leadership and they wanted him dead.

Nietzsche taught, indeed, quite the opposite of this:

"Against the deviation of the state tendency into a money-tendency, to be feared from this side, the only remedy is war and once again war, in the emotions of which this at least becomes obvious, that the state is not founded upon the fear of the war-demon, as a protective institution for egoistic individuals, but that, in love to fatherland and prince, it produces an ethical impulse, indicative of a much higher destiny. If I therefore designate as a dangerous and characteristic sign of the present political situation the application of revolutionary thought in the service of a selfish stateless money-aristocracy, if at the same time I conceive of the enormous dissemination of liberal optimism as the result of modern financial affairs fallen into strange hands, and if I imagine all evils of social conditions together with the necessary decay of the arts to have either germinated from that root or grown together with it, one will have to pardon my occasionally chanting a Paean on war. Horribly clangs its silvery bow; and although it comes along like the night, war is nevertheless Apollo, the true divinity for consecrating and purifying the state. [...] Be it then pronounced that war is just as much a necessity for the state as the slave is for society, and who can avoid this verdict if he honestly asks himself about the causes of the never-equaled Greek art-perfection?"
[Nietzsche, The Greek State.]
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
User avatar
Sauwelios
Philosophical Supremacist
 
Posts: 7182
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:07 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Postby Jakob » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:03 pm

Dunamis; Sauwlios's arguments have all ended up at the starting points of my attacks. Your arguments were not even arguments.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6919
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Postby Jakob » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:39 pm

To illustrate both your understandings of Nietzsche and their supposed harmony on which you two pride each other:
Dunamis wrote:
Sauwelios wrote:Nietzsche was not sickly, but sick: he suffered from a slowly growing right-sided retro-orbital meningioma.


A physiological line he kept trying to draw as he become more and more hysterical. No such line saves him. The man was sickly in his desperation not to appear sickly. Only by swallowing his self-portrait would you be able to make the statement that you have. How odd that you have taken a sickly man's word about himself.

Decadent? Well, did he not say almost every man is decadent for about half his life? And Nietzsche's supposed decadence was, for the most part, due to his sickness.


To his sickliness. His ressentiment filled description of Wagner might as well have been a self-confession.

Filled with resentment? Please make this plausible. You said it was "proved", but you cannot prove it, of course. Then at least supply evidence!


The Case of Wagner is not ressentiment???? A failed virgin, cast off by Salome, raging against intellectual women and femininity in general? How pathetic can one get? What is more ressentiment filled than his tirades against those that have rejected him?

Hysterical? That is not like Nietzsche at all. But if you think you can, please provide evidence.


The hysteric is marked by his use of masks, such is Nietzsche's repeated charge. Nietzsche is supposedly the master user of masks, pretending that he has some control over such use, and thereby is somehow above the hysteric. He has no more control than Wagner did. He is obsessive in his masks, lost in them. He is delusional as to his non-hysterical status.

Of course Nietzsche was hysterical when relating to acual women. That is what Sauwelios illustrated with his Cornholio example. I assume you know him, if not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cXoRPTF ... ed&search=

Unlike you , Dunamis, I understood from the beginning the error in Sauwelios' reasoning - which he eventually saw - that N's evaluation of woman is simply his evaluation of them as feminine, as opposed to masculine. This is not the importance of his philosophy, obviously. After this was recognized the theory of willing and creating as redemption came into the picture. If your memory is worth anything; this was the topic of the quote I posted in that thread.
But now, you have gotten Sauwelios back into the position from which he can simply defend his camelship under the banner of Nietzsche while you accuse Sauwelios and Nietzsche of being idiots together.
In other words, you're compimenting the camel.
You don't have the creative genius or the understanding of Nietzsche to challenge camel to become a lion.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6919
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Postby Dunamis » Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:39 pm

Jakob wrote:In other words, you're compimenting the camel.
You don't have the creative genius or the understanding of Nietzsche to challenge camel to become a lion.


Forgive me if I don't participate in your derivative zoological fantasy. I am not a Nietzschean. I have no desire to become a "lion", (to get that self-bestowed merit badge), but only chuckle at people claiming to be "lions", (or finding themselves to be "geniuses"), yet display no such characteristics at all. If you believe you are a genius, keep telling yourself that. No doubt the thought is nurturing. If you believe that I lack your creative genius, that too will comfort. I'll let you Nietzscheans fight it out amougst yourselves, like inter-denominational squablers, the Church of Saint Nietzsche vs. The Chapel of Mother Nietzsche. Who has inherited the divine Truth? (Personally I believe Sauwelios has a much firmer grasp of Nietzsche's conceptions. He has not watered down the doctrine to an "acceptable" level). Meanwhile, my critique Nietzsche is as it has always been, at the level of power. He simply is not as powerful as he thought he was, nor claimed, because he misunderstood power. That his followers (of every stripe) suffer from the same delusion is really of no surprise.
Il mundo è un animal grande e perfetto. – Del senso

The starting-point of critical elaboration is the consciousness of what one really is, and is “knowing thyself” as a product of the historical process to date which has deposited in you an infinity of traces, without leaving an inventory. - Prison Notebooks

Ergo obiectum nostrae mentis est corpus existens, et nihil aliud. - Ethices

deus sum, commutavero. eandem hanc, si voltis, faciam ex tragoedia comoedia ut sit omnibus isdem vorsibus. utrum sit an non voltis? -- Amphitryon

The valley-spirit (gu-shen) does not die, this is called the obscure she-thing (xuan-pin). - Tao-te ching
User avatar
Dunamis
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7361
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:23 am

Postby Jakob » Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:56 pm

Dunamis wrote:
Jakob wrote:In other words, you're compimenting the camel.
You don't have the creative genius or the understanding of Nietzsche to challenge camel to become a lion.


Forgive me if I don't participate in your derivative zoological fantasy. I am not a Nietzschean. I have no desire to become a "lion", (to get that self-bestowed merit badge), but only chuckle at people claiming to be "lions", (or finding themselves to be "geniuses"), yet display no such characteristics at all. If you believe you are a genius, keep telling yourself that. No doubt the thought is nurturing. If you believe that I lack your creative genius, that too will comfort. I'll let you Nietzscheans fight it out amougst yourselves, like inter-denominational squablers, the Church of Saint Nietzsche vs. The Chapel of Mother Nietzsche. Who has inherited the divine Truth? (Personally I believe Sauwelios has a much firmer grasp of Nietzsche's conceptions. He has not watered down the doctrine to an "acceptable" level). Meanwhile, my critique Nietzsche is as it has always been, at the level of power. He simply is not as powerful as he thought he was, nor claimed, because he misunderstood power. That his followers (of every stripe) suffer from the same delusion is really of no surprise.


Oh, you 'chuckle' don't you? - that is exactly what the christian fundamentalist on our previos board used to bring out as a response when confronted with something he could not handle intellectually.
Your soul betrays itself; only when faced with someone who calls himself a master do you feel inclined to respond - whith 'you are not a master!' in whichever form you think hides your resentful face best for the occasion. In the meantime, you say nothing, and understand nothing.

I've yet to see you respond rationally to a single argument. All you do is shriek: NO!
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6919
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Postby Dunamis » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:04 pm

Jakob wrote:Oh, you 'chuckle' don't you? - that is exactly what the christian fundamentalist on our previos board used to bring out as a response when confronted with something he could not handle intellectually.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Handle something "intellectually"? I have not noticed anything intellectual being presented by you. Please rephrase your "intellectual" thought which I cannot handle. As to Christian Fundamentalists, I don't much talk to them pretty much for the same reason that I don't talk to Nietzschean Fundamentalists.

Your soul betrays itself; only when faced with someone who calls himself a master do you feel inclined to respond - whith 'you are not a master!'


Actually I just laugh at the unMasterly conduct. That followers of Nietzsche are prone to overstatement and over-self-estimation is not a surprise.

I've yet to see you respond rationally to a single argument...


If you would like to actually present an "argument", I'd like to see what you think an argument looks like.
Il mundo è un animal grande e perfetto. – Del senso

The starting-point of critical elaboration is the consciousness of what one really is, and is “knowing thyself” as a product of the historical process to date which has deposited in you an infinity of traces, without leaving an inventory. - Prison Notebooks

Ergo obiectum nostrae mentis est corpus existens, et nihil aliud. - Ethices

deus sum, commutavero. eandem hanc, si voltis, faciam ex tragoedia comoedia ut sit omnibus isdem vorsibus. utrum sit an non voltis? -- Amphitryon

The valley-spirit (gu-shen) does not die, this is called the obscure she-thing (xuan-pin). - Tao-te ching
User avatar
Dunamis
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7361
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:23 am

Postby Jakob » Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:46 pm

D: Glad you ask. One of the things you both overlook is that since Nietzsche primarily advocated self overcoming in his philosophy, it <i>cannot</i> be of any consequence what your thoughts of the man himself are to your interpretation of his philosophy. It is a guarantee for shortcircuiting it.
I've presented this argument earlier, and it was overlooked by both of you.
Predicatably, because it removes the entire basis for your conflict, which took place on a more emotionally satisfying level.

As for the Lion, I was speaking of Sauwelios, not of myself. You have to stretch his intellect beyond the comfortable for the Lion to come out - for the young philosopher Sauwelios to actually say something himself.

fight between servants end up in name calling. Fights between masters end up in deepening of the subject matter. If you can rationally go into the argument presented above, that will happen.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6919
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Postby Dunamis » Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:49 pm

You call that an intellectual argument?
Il mundo è un animal grande e perfetto. – Del senso

The starting-point of critical elaboration is the consciousness of what one really is, and is “knowing thyself” as a product of the historical process to date which has deposited in you an infinity of traces, without leaving an inventory. - Prison Notebooks

Ergo obiectum nostrae mentis est corpus existens, et nihil aliud. - Ethices

deus sum, commutavero. eandem hanc, si voltis, faciam ex tragoedia comoedia ut sit omnibus isdem vorsibus. utrum sit an non voltis? -- Amphitryon

The valley-spirit (gu-shen) does not die, this is called the obscure she-thing (xuan-pin). - Tao-te ching
User avatar
Dunamis
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7361
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:23 am

Postby Jakob » Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:56 pm

Dunamis wrote:You call that an intellectual argument?


Yes, it's an argument that asks you to exert yourself.
If not for me, why not do it for the thread?
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6919
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Postby Dunamis » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:10 pm

According to you, such an argument is so intellectual, I can't handle it.

Let's see.

Jakob says, "Philosopher "x" preaches "y", therefore what you think of anything that philosopher "x" says in exemplifying "y" has nothing to do with "y", in fact "y", by the mere fact of his preaching it, and your undeterred embrace of it, stands as its own value and can never be critiqued. "y" for the sake of "y". Nevermind that philosopher "x" says that "y" is not a transcendent property, nor a sharable truth, but rather is something that is manifested, and that all the y's (y', y", y'", y'''', y""') of his expressed exemplification of "y" are evidence of "y", and never mind that each and everyone's "y" status is marked by their exemplifications of "y", and are subject to a critique of y-ness, and never mind that my own "y-ness" impells me to undermine philosopher "x"s very own conception of "y", exposed at the level of its exemplification; and never mind that all those who philosopher "x" claims are deprived of "y-ness" are strikingly similar to philospher "x"s very own ememplifications of "y", "y" by the very virtue of it being "y" is both commendable and unquestionable for followers of "x".

Wow that is quite an argument.

Now as an onlooker of philosopher "x", and not a devotee, I find it absurd.
Il mundo è un animal grande e perfetto. – Del senso

The starting-point of critical elaboration is the consciousness of what one really is, and is “knowing thyself” as a product of the historical process to date which has deposited in you an infinity of traces, without leaving an inventory. - Prison Notebooks

Ergo obiectum nostrae mentis est corpus existens, et nihil aliud. - Ethices

deus sum, commutavero. eandem hanc, si voltis, faciam ex tragoedia comoedia ut sit omnibus isdem vorsibus. utrum sit an non voltis? -- Amphitryon

The valley-spirit (gu-shen) does not die, this is called the obscure she-thing (xuan-pin). - Tao-te ching
User avatar
Dunamis
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7361
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:23 am

Postby Jakob » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:12 pm

Dunamis wrote: He simply is not as powerful as he thought he was, nor claimed, because he misunderstood power. That his followers (of every stripe) suffer from the same delusion is really of no surprise.

For starters Nietzsche has had a big hand in WOII and the ideal of nazi germany. That is allready pretty powerful. On top of that, he has got people who'se family is exterminated by said nazi's to incorporate the will of nazism into their thinking. That is more powerful than any philosopher since Plato. And there is no end in sight - even his despisers happily spend time discussing him. Discussion of his ideas will increase with time, as the nature of reality unveils itself as far more terrifying than the most fanatical modern pessimist had imagined.
As for me 'watering down' Nietzsche to make him acceptable - I simply accept the most horrifying facts of life, because I affirm all of life.
I assure you there is no watering down going on. I've suffered and redeemed more than my fair share of reality.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6919
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Postby Dunamis » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:18 pm

Jakob wrote:For starters Nietzsche has had a big hand in WOII and the ideal of nazi germany. That is allready pretty powerful. On top of that, he has got people who'se family is exterminated by said nazi's to incorporate the will of nazism into their thinking.


None of this was "done" by Nietzsche.
Il mundo è un animal grande e perfetto. – Del senso

The starting-point of critical elaboration is the consciousness of what one really is, and is “knowing thyself” as a product of the historical process to date which has deposited in you an infinity of traces, without leaving an inventory. - Prison Notebooks

Ergo obiectum nostrae mentis est corpus existens, et nihil aliud. - Ethices

deus sum, commutavero. eandem hanc, si voltis, faciam ex tragoedia comoedia ut sit omnibus isdem vorsibus. utrum sit an non voltis? -- Amphitryon

The valley-spirit (gu-shen) does not die, this is called the obscure she-thing (xuan-pin). - Tao-te ching
User avatar
Dunamis
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7361
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:23 am

Postby Jakob » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:39 pm

Dunamis wrote:According to you, such an argument is so intellectual, I can't handle it.

Let's see.

Jakob says, "Philosopher "x" preaches "y", therefore what you think of anything that philosopher "x" says in exemplifying "y" has nothing to do with "y", in fact "y", by the mere fact of his preaching it, and your undeterred embrace of it, stands as its own value and can never be critiqued. "y" for the sake of "y". Nevermind that philosopher "x" says that "y" is not a transcendent property, nor a sharable truth, but rather is something that is manifested, and that all the y's (y', y", y'", y'''', y""') of his expressed exemplification of "y" are evidence of "y", and never mind that each and everyone's "y" status is marked by their exemplifications of "y", and are subject to a critique of y-ness, and never mind that my own "y-ness" impells me to undermine philosopher "x"s very own conception of "y", exposed at the level of its exemplification; and never mind that all those who philosopher "x" claims are deprived of "y-ness" are strikingly similar to philospher "x"s very own ememplifications of "y", "y" by the very virtue of it being "y" is both commendable and unquestionable for followers of "x".

Wow that is quite an argument.

Now as an onlooker of philosopher "x", and not a devotee, I find it absurd.

This is something. Here is my own take on it:
Philosopher x preaches y because philosopher x is x and he wants to become y. If we interpret him as y, we allow him to work towards y. If we interpret him as x, we can only see that x is really x and wants to be y but fails, because we still see him as x.

You say that your own y-ness leads you to undermine x's conception of y. But I see Dunamis-x trying to undermine Sauwelios-x's conception of Nietzsche-x. You both have said nothing about y.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6919
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Postby Dunamis » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:52 pm

Jakob wrote:If we interpret him as y, we allow him to work towards y.


I have no desire, nor interest in "allowing" him to do anything. I owe him nothing. In fact his conception of "y" is remarkably un-y-like, as he has exemplified it.

If we interpret him as x, we can only see that x is really x and wants to be y but fails, because we still see him as x.


He failed. There is no reason why I should listen to what he says about "y" because he made "y" up to make himself feel better, a delusion as is exemplified by his exemplification.

You say that your own y-ness leads you to undermine x's conception of y. But I see Dunamis-x trying to undermine Sauwelios-x's conception of Nietzsche-x. You both have said nothing about y.


I think that Sauwelios has got a pretty good read on Nietzsche, how he meant his exemplifications to be understood as just what it meant to be "y"; he has done well not to turn him into a Hallmark Card for generation "x". As such, he has both embraced Nietzsche as Nietzsche understood his truth to be, but also has suffered from the same weakness. You, and other self-proclaimed "creative geniuses" (not my phrase) have made Nietzsche a slogan machine for one's self-infatuations, and deprived yourself and others of the critique that Nietzsche was offerring.

It is known as a poisoned well (a dog fell in it). You can either climb down and with great difficulty drink from it, grow intoxicated, spasm and die (under the delusion of your own greatness); or you can drop pennies into it from above, looking into its murk, see your distorting reflection and think your wishes will be granted. I say, walk on. There are other more interesting things in the world.


In all of this, I still have not seen an "argument" from you. Only a plea.
Il mundo è un animal grande e perfetto. – Del senso

The starting-point of critical elaboration is the consciousness of what one really is, and is “knowing thyself” as a product of the historical process to date which has deposited in you an infinity of traces, without leaving an inventory. - Prison Notebooks

Ergo obiectum nostrae mentis est corpus existens, et nihil aliud. - Ethices

deus sum, commutavero. eandem hanc, si voltis, faciam ex tragoedia comoedia ut sit omnibus isdem vorsibus. utrum sit an non voltis? -- Amphitryon

The valley-spirit (gu-shen) does not die, this is called the obscure she-thing (xuan-pin). - Tao-te ching
User avatar
Dunamis
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7361
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:23 am

Re: Last word

Postby MagnetMan » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:11 pm

Sauwelios wrote:
If I therefore designate as a dangerous and characteristic sign of the present political situation the application of revolutionary thought in the service of a selfish stateless money-aristocracy, if at the same time I conceive of the enormous dissemination of liberal optimism as the result of modern financial affairs fallen into strange hands, and if I imagine all evils of social conditions together with the necessary decay of the arts to have either germinated from that root or grown together with it, one will have to pardon my occasionally chanting a Paean on war.


There was a moment in my life when, after endlessly mulling over similar greviiences, I seriously contemplated using sabotage to initiate a lone revolutionary war against the government. I plotted for months on exactly how I would dramatically bring national attention to social wrongs that urgently needed righting. Unlike Timmothy Macvey and the Uni-Bomber, I devised a strategy that could dynamite a hundred remote power pylons similateneously and cut the grids and bring entire cities to a standstill without killing people - and by its sheer audacity attract hundreds of not thousands of similar closet revolutionaries, who would come pouring out of the woodwork, armed to the teeth with their hoarded kalishnikovs, and we would bring down the temple of Baal and establish a new social order. I swear, at that time, just one more act of oppression by the government, similar to Waco or Ruby Ridge would have pushed me over the edge.

Thank God that teenage moment passed and kept my name and that of my family from the infamous legions of would-be-do-gooders who thought they knew better on how to govern the masses and gain power by using the immediacy and drama of war to over-throw the status quo.

Nietzsche simply perpetuates the immature, independent, ill-bred, stage of rebellious self-determinsim that is idolized by teenagers.
Jesus took a long-term forgiving step into inter-dependenct human relationships and is admired by responsible parents who have come to realize that compassionate social behavior depends entirely on breeding.
"There can be no heaven if there is one soul left suffering in hell."
Common Sense Revisited
User avatar
MagnetMan
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2295
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:10 pm
Location: America

PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot]