Nietzsche and Christianity meet Hegel

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Postby Jakob » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:34 pm

The desctruction of this deathform will result in a true religious war, a war of the idols. All extremists of the world, who are in essence all racist, unite their energies in a monumental clash; the war in Heaven. This tragedy is the final solution of our culture, the moment if it's justification. It's culmilation will be embodied in a handful of men.

The outcome of the war, which no one can tell, will determine who gets control over the surrection of the New Idol - who will determine the direction of history at the starting point. Religion and politics will become one, a tool of the masters of the Earth; the philosopher of power and the artist tyrant.

Who are the candidates? The black muslim will be an MC. The white supramacist a musician. The mixbreed a director. The semite an antisemite philosopher. And the christian will, at last, be dead.
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Postby Jakob » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:17 pm

The new religion will revolve around a living woman, a spiritual queen. her judgement will be harsh but not cruel, a mediating power only for the world economy, an honest justification of life for the weak, a reason ro inspired work.
Wars will be fought for pleasure at first, later they will sublimate into cold wars; wars of scientific achievement. This is the age of Aquarius ushered in by Einstein and celebrated with the nuclair bombardements.

String theory becomes irrelevant as it is unmasked as a circular argument which can only be tested if one takes oneself out of the equation which encompasses the entire universe. Or something stupid like that.

Magic will be reinstated as a professional endeavor of great influence. crime in immoral magic-science, manipulating of the psychic energy reserves, and this will create a new art form. All free art revolves around crime. Cyperpsychoperformances of Neoshamanic Geomaniacs make the party scene quite interesting for a good 100 years. Then a lapse into madness and a crisis. The following poem will be found burned in emerald: (not in italics but I have to stress how impressive it looks to the kids who find it in the grotto)

<i>He who suffers is not
He who lightens the pain is it.</i>

This shall be the aquarian dictum from then on, as these children sit on the top of the emotional pyramid in the lap of the goddess, as man prepares for the monumental noon of mankind at unification with a bunch of weird 'aliens', who want to have what we have. We'll pass them a beanseed in a pot of dirt and they give us the secret to interstellar travel. The transaction will be made on the day advertized as the Capricorn African Morn.

The 1st solar system is found by the dragon, because he did not know it was impossible.
The 2nd system, and this one is much larger, will be territorized by the lion.
The 3rd and fourth by other cats, and when finally the elephant makes the leap, the new PdoubbleDH perceptional diversiondevice of heat is in function, whereby stellar power can be incorporated in daily life.
next weeked I go camping.
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Postby Doug.E.Barr » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:24 pm

Jakob wrote:...we might be better off leaving God up for speculation.
Yes!
It is better to wonder about the possibility of God and find out you're a fool, than not wonder and leave the possibilities of life unexplored.

This is the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, all there is to the truth so help me God.

I have a philosophical deficiency.

We are in the Age of Asininity

LINKS: THE LAST WHY: the poem ....What life is all about.
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Jesus' last words.

Postby Sauwelios » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:31 pm

Hey Dunamis!

I asked about "all scholars" at the Forum Divi Julii, and I got an answer:

http://tinyurl.com/uzgs4
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Re: Jesus' last words.

Postby Dunamis » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:00 pm

Sauwelios wrote:Hey Dunamis!

I asked about "all scholars" at the Forum Divi Julii, and I got an answer:

http://tinyurl.com/uzgs4


Hmmm. Do you actually think that "All scholars agree" is justified by "Scholars may have been phantasizing on and around these last words, but they did it *because* these words were obviously an invention." The answer is the same kind of nonsense that you posted before.

Yes, there are no doubt occasions of made up last words. There is no reason at all that this is "obviously" such a case, unless you want it obviously to be one. If you want to believe such a thing go ahead. But do not pretend that "all scholars" agree with you.

This is the kind of thing that happens when a bunch of people who agree with each other start telling each other how obvious their "truth" is.
Il mundo è un animal grande e perfetto. – Del senso

The starting-point of critical elaboration is the consciousness of what one really is, and is “knowing thyself” as a product of the historical process to date which has deposited in you an infinity of traces, without leaving an inventory. - Prison Notebooks

Ergo obiectum nostrae mentis est corpus existens, et nihil aliud. - Ethices

deus sum, commutavero. eandem hanc, si voltis, faciam ex tragoedia comoedia ut sit omnibus isdem vorsibus. utrum sit an non voltis? -- Amphitryon

The valley-spirit (gu-shen) does not die, this is called the obscure she-thing (xuan-pin). - Tao-te ching
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Postby heavenly_demonic » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:53 pm

Sauwelios wrote:That Jesus was really Caesar is one of my "convictions": it is highly probable that it is so. Another is that Nietzsche suffered from a meningioma. There is no proof, there is good scientific evidence for both claims.


awwww... :(
:o
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Postby Sauwelios » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:13 pm

heavenly_demonic wrote:
Sauwelios wrote:That Jesus was really Caesar is one of my "convictions": it is highly probable that it is so. Another is that Nietzsche suffered from a meningioma. There is no proof, there is good scientific evidence for both claims.


awwww... :(
:o

http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/jwc_e/vp.html
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Re: Jesus' last words.

Postby Jakob » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:21 pm

Dunamis wrote:
Sauwelios wrote:Hey Dunamis!

I asked about "all scholars" at the Forum Divi Julii, and I got an answer:

http://tinyurl.com/uzgs4


Hmmm. Do you actually think that "All scholars agree" is justified by "Scholars may have been phantasizing on and around these last words, but they did it *because* these words were obviously an invention." The answer is the same kind of nonsense that you posted before.

Yes, there are no doubt occasions of made up last words. There is no reason at all that this is "obviously" such a case, unless you want it obviously to be one. If you want to believe such a thing go ahead. But do not pretend that "all scholars" agree with you.

This is the kind of thing that happens when a bunch of people who agree with each other start telling each other how obvious their "truth" is.


Well said. Furthermore, it is quite likely that 'Father, why has thou forsaken me' were in fact the last words of Jesus, because the pain could well have broken through his reverie.
It is understandable if the later two gospels omitted these words because they were not to be understood from within the doctrine that had by that point developped.
It is quite likely that the earlier gospels have more historical value and the latter more interpretation in them.
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Postby heavenly_demonic » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:30 pm

Sauwelios wrote:
heavenly_demonic wrote:
Sauwelios wrote:That Jesus was really Caesar is one of my "convictions": it is highly probable that it is so. Another is that Nietzsche suffered from a meningioma. There is no proof, there is good scientific evidence for both claims.


awwww... :(
:o

http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/jwc_e/vp.html


am I too schizo if after reading that I say my personality kind of resembles both Caesar's and Jesus's?

haha... ''I'm Napoleon! I'm Jesusssss hehehehhhhahahahahhhohohoho'' lol


:o

that was a joke btw...

Sawuelios, are you saying that they are 'the same person' in the 'history may have got it wrong ' way? in the ' he had a double life' way or in the ' he was the reincarnation or twin soul of the former' way...
Last edited by heavenly_demonic on Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jesus' last words.

Postby Sauwelios » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:42 pm

Dunamis wrote:Do you actually think that "All scholars agree" is justified by "Scholars may have been phantasizing on and around these last words, but they did it *because* these words were obviously an invention."

I never said that I did.


Dunamis wrote:Yes, there are no doubt occasions of made up last words. There is no reason at all that this is "obviously" such a case, unless you want it obviously to be one. If you want to believe such a thing go ahead. But do not pretend that "all scholars" agree with you.

I have never pretended that.

I have called the idea that Jesus was Caesar one of my "convictions". This does not mean I believe it is absolutely certain. It only means that I find it highly probable, considering the evidence (which is listed in the book). I have not based my judgments on assertions such as "all scholars agree", but on linguistic evidence.
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Postby Dunamis » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:00 pm

All I know is that the book you (authoritatively) quoted from was in its quote, sorely deficient in either evidence or reasoning, and very long on overstatement; and that your follow-up was just more of the same bit of "obviousness".

If you like the fairytale that Jesus was Caesar, and that tucks you into bed at night, enjoy your sweet dreams.
Il mundo è un animal grande e perfetto. – Del senso

The starting-point of critical elaboration is the consciousness of what one really is, and is “knowing thyself” as a product of the historical process to date which has deposited in you an infinity of traces, without leaving an inventory. - Prison Notebooks

Ergo obiectum nostrae mentis est corpus existens, et nihil aliud. - Ethices

deus sum, commutavero. eandem hanc, si voltis, faciam ex tragoedia comoedia ut sit omnibus isdem vorsibus. utrum sit an non voltis? -- Amphitryon

The valley-spirit (gu-shen) does not die, this is called the obscure she-thing (xuan-pin). - Tao-te ching
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Postby Jakob » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:11 pm

Judging by his fairytales, I don't think the dreams Sauwelios aims at are necessarily sweet. That is why there is an attraction in them. Good fiction is crime fiction
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Postby Sauwelios » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:14 pm

Dunamis wrote:All I know is that the book you (authoritatively) quoted from was in its quote, sorely deficient in either evidence or reasoning, and very long on overstatement; and that your follow-up was just more of the same bit of "obviousness".

The point of that quote is that "Jesus'" last words may well have been put into his mouth by his "chroniclers" (for instance, a Psalms quote - always sounds deep!).

In the course of Carotta's argument, this uncertainty as to Jesus' last words (both as to what they were and if there were any at all) is used to show that "Jesus" may well have said nothing on that occasion, and may therefore have already been dead.

I am reminded now of a delicious passage - made me laugh out loud when I first read it:

"We can be confident that a gang went wild with daggers and other weapons, and indeed so wild that they wounded each other in the face. The arrest of Jesus seems to have been more murderous than it looks at first glance. Due to the fact that Jesus does not speak a word after the arrest [except for "Thou sayest it" and his famous last words] and is later depicted with an open chest-wound, untypical for a crucified one, it is reasonable to assume that he was murdered at this point and that his so-called arrest was actually his capture, his entrapment, and—as Mark’s choice of words indicates—his assassination."
[Francesco Carotta, Was Jesus Caesar?, Crux, A posthumous trial?]


If you like the fairytale that Jesus was Caesar, and that tucks you into bed at night, enjoy your sweet dreams.

Fairytale? How about the evidence, Dunamis...
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Postby Dunamis » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:20 pm

Sauwelios wrote: (for instance, a Psalms quote - always sounds deep!).


Yes. How bloody unlikely for a rabbi to be quoting the Scriptures on his last breath.???!!?

In the course of Carotta's argument, this uncertainty as to Jesus' last words


Argument? I saw no argument. I saw overstatement and claims to proof that were designed to convince weakminded followers of his ideas.

"We can be confident that a gang went wild with daggers and other weapons, and indeed so wild that they wounded each other in the face. The arrest of Jesus seems to have been more murderous than it looks at first glance. Due to the fact that Jesus does not speak a word after the arrest [except for "Thou sayest it" and his famous last words] and is later depicted with an open chest-wound, untypical for a crucified one, it is reasonable to assume that he was murdered at this point and that his so-called arrest was actually his capture, his entrapment, and—as Mark’s choice of words indicates—his assassination."
[Francesco Carotta, Was Jesus Caesar?, Crux, A posthumous trial?]


That you read such crap as anything more than a person's fantasy is certainly a blot on your ledger. I suggest you stop quoting from Francesco Carotta or visting his website.

Fairytale? How about the evidence, Dunamis...


Evidence is what you want to make of it. I am discussing things with a crackpot who has an emotional investment in a conclusion and sees "evidence" everywhere. Like I said, clutch hard to your evidence. Make your make believe REAL.
Il mundo è un animal grande e perfetto. – Del senso

The starting-point of critical elaboration is the consciousness of what one really is, and is “knowing thyself” as a product of the historical process to date which has deposited in you an infinity of traces, without leaving an inventory. - Prison Notebooks

Ergo obiectum nostrae mentis est corpus existens, et nihil aliud. - Ethices

deus sum, commutavero. eandem hanc, si voltis, faciam ex tragoedia comoedia ut sit omnibus isdem vorsibus. utrum sit an non voltis? -- Amphitryon

The valley-spirit (gu-shen) does not die, this is called the obscure she-thing (xuan-pin). - Tao-te ching
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Postby Sauwelios » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:39 pm

Dunamis wrote:
Sauwelios wrote: (for instance, a Psalms quote - always sounds deep!).


Yes. How bloody unlikely for a rabbi to be quoting the Scriptures on his last breath.???!!?

Not unlikely, but not likely either. ("bloody", "the Scriptures", "???!!?"...)


Dunamis wrote:
In the course of Carotta's argument, this uncertainty as to Jesus' last words


Argument? I saw no argument. I saw overstatement and claims to proof that were designed to convince weakminded followers of his ideas.

His argument is actually quite solid. Have you read the book? Or at least that passage I quoted within its context?


Dunamis wrote:
"We can be confident that a gang went wild with daggers and other weapons, and indeed so wild that they wounded each other in the face. The arrest of Jesus seems to have been more murderous than it looks at first glance. Due to the fact that Jesus does not speak a word after the arrest [except for "Thou sayest it" and his famous last words] and is later depicted with an open chest-wound, untypical for a crucified one, it is reasonable to assume that he was murdered at this point and that his so-called arrest was actually his capture, his entrapment, and—as Mark’s choice of words indicates—his assassination."
[Francesco Carotta, Was Jesus Caesar?, Crux, A posthumous trial?]


That you read such crap as anything more than a person's fantasy is certainly a blot on your ledger. I suggest you stop quoting from Francesco Carotta or visting his website.

Your irritation is so telling, Dunamis! And so amusing!

The more I read of you, the more you seem to me to be just another frustrated scholar with a weakness for Christianity.


Dunamis wrote:
Fairytale? How about the evidence, Dunamis...


Evidence is what you want to make of it. I am discussing things with a crackpot who has an emotional investment in a conclusion and sees "evidence" everywhere. Like I said, clutch hard to your evidence. Make your make believe REAL.

It is you who have an emotional investment in a conclusion. I had noticed the striking similarities between Jesus and Caesar well before I happened upon that book. But I am willing to regard it as a myth - a life-enhancing myth. (That is always the question. The Christian myth is hostile to life...)

No Jesus; just Caesar.
No beyond; just this world.
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Postby Dunamis » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:53 pm

Sauwelios wrote:Your irritation is so telling, Dunamis! And so amusing!


My irritation is not at the content of your assertion, but the weakmindedness of it. If a Christian made the same kind of statement, and many of them do, I would laugh just as hard. What is really "amusing" is that you are just participating in one more coddling "belief" that sees "evidence" everywhere, one more bedtime story. How typical of a follower of Nietzsche's.


p.s. anyone else get the impression that Nick_A fell on his head and started posting as Sauwelios?
Il mundo è un animal grande e perfetto. – Del senso

The starting-point of critical elaboration is the consciousness of what one really is, and is “knowing thyself” as a product of the historical process to date which has deposited in you an infinity of traces, without leaving an inventory. - Prison Notebooks

Ergo obiectum nostrae mentis est corpus existens, et nihil aliud. - Ethices

deus sum, commutavero. eandem hanc, si voltis, faciam ex tragoedia comoedia ut sit omnibus isdem vorsibus. utrum sit an non voltis? -- Amphitryon

The valley-spirit (gu-shen) does not die, this is called the obscure she-thing (xuan-pin). - Tao-te ching
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Postby Gobbo » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:57 pm

Your irritation is so telling


:lol:

Watch it.. it's his contempt for our... stupidity that gets him to post.

P.S. Anyone get the impression Nick_A fell on his head..


:lol:
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Postby Jakob » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:58 pm

The audacity of a myth is it's power, Dunamis. You're fighting for the prey the animal allready ate.
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Postby Sauwelios » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:46 pm

Dunamis wrote:What is really "amusing" is that you are just participating in one more coddling "belief" that sees "evidence" everywhere, one more bedtime story. How typical of a follower of Nietzsche's.

I shall be proud to be considered a follower of Nietzsche's. I will pursue his philosophy, and see where it leads me.
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Postby Gobbo » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:06 am

Nietzsche would be disgusted at anyone who 'followed' him.

Dunamis may be slightly off but at least he's taking a few swings at that mustached bastard.


You gotta fight him, you gotta win -- cause Fritz fights dirty.
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Postby Sauwelios » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:20 am

Old_Gobbo wrote:Nietzsche would be disgusted at anyone who 'followed' him.

Dunamis may be slightly off but at least he's taking a few swings at that mustached bastard.


You gotta fight him, you gotta win -- cause Fritz fights dirty.

'Tis your false familiarity that is disgusting, Old Gobbo friend buddy!
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Postby Dunamis » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:27 am

Sauwelios wrote:I shall be proud to be considered a follower of Nietzsche's. I will pursue his philosophy, and see where it leads me.


Only someone who cannot create their own truth, in other words someone who does not understand Nietzsche, would say such a thing...dear, dear follower...may you always have something to follow, and may you never lead.

O.G., Sauwelios is right, only a lacky truly knows his master.
Il mundo è un animal grande e perfetto. – Del senso

The starting-point of critical elaboration is the consciousness of what one really is, and is “knowing thyself” as a product of the historical process to date which has deposited in you an infinity of traces, without leaving an inventory. - Prison Notebooks

Ergo obiectum nostrae mentis est corpus existens, et nihil aliud. - Ethices

deus sum, commutavero. eandem hanc, si voltis, faciam ex tragoedia comoedia ut sit omnibus isdem vorsibus. utrum sit an non voltis? -- Amphitryon

The valley-spirit (gu-shen) does not die, this is called the obscure she-thing (xuan-pin). - Tao-te ching
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Postby detrop » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:32 am

"Loving the master.-- Not as apprentices do, loves a master a master."
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Postby Sauwelios » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:33 am

Dunamis wrote:
Sauwelios wrote:I shall be proud to be considered a follower of Nietzsche's. I will pursue his philosophy, and see where it leads me.


Only someone who cannot create their own truth, in other words someone who does not understand Nietzsche, would say such a thing...dear, dear follower...may you always have something to follow, and may you never lead.

Blah, blah. If you understand Nietzsche better than I, please put me right - preferably in ChimneySweep's Nietzsche: Image over Substance thread.

In following Nietzsche, I follow myself.
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Postby Gobbo » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:33 am

:wink:

You hold on too tightly to your perceptions.

''Tis' a shame it would take a demonstration of quotes and such to demonstrate this.
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