Nietzsche and Christianity meet Hegel

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Postby Wobbly » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:51 pm

Dunamis wrote: Nietzsche is just less efficient in his concept of power, mistaken and confused in his concept of active and passive, though the two thinkers operate at times with similar assumptions.


I was just trying to figure out what "Nietzsche lacks the simplicity of 'the order and connection of ideas is the same as the order and connection of things'" is supposed to mean. Nietzsche denies causation, and this quote expressly endorses casusation, so it's more than a matter of simplicity it's a matter of underlying assumptions. Also, I would endeaver to say that Spinoza's simplicity is due to his conception of God/substance, something that Nietzsche doesn't hold. But I guess you're just criticizing him for not being a systematizer who has the advantage of god/substance to lend simplicity, and having literary merit as well as philosophical.

Last I recall you were here calling me "imputent" and "arrogant" for questioning Nietzsche. Weren't those the absurd words you used? To have a discussion with such a person really isn't productive. Perhaps take your conception of questioning to someone else.


I used Arrogant, not the other one. Anyway, it is arrogant to try to trivialize a philosopher's merit because of prejudices of the time that hold little sway on the philosophy itself. It would be like trying to trivilize Aristotle because of the relation he posits between the greek and the barbarian..
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Postby detrop » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:58 pm

So my friend tells me that the Exodus was proof that God wanted only the white race to survive.

Is this true?

What if the Nazi ideal is really just another interpretation of a biblical story involving the extinction of a race? Noah was a white dude, right? And he made the boat. So God wanted to drown everyone else, apparantly.

Did Hitler believe that he was God's chosen race?

Discuss.
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Postby Jakob » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:16 pm

evidence you gave of Nietzsche's racism.[/quote]
"Hysterical"... You have become a Dunamite!

----Yes, I've become a slave to your Great Enemy...

Is racism not simply the notion that there is such a thing as race?

-----No.

it was never my assertion, but has always been a joke. You first made it into an assertion by taking it seriously.

-----So what it was a joke? It showed more spirit than all your serious exhibitions in that thread combined. That it negated them as well was part of it's wit.

When is one ever not determined by "external" factors?

------When one is inspired.

I'm getting enough of your disrespectful metaphors.

------<i>You</i> are getting tired of <i>my</i> disrespect? I hope that is a joke.

"Did my loathing itself create for me wings and fountain-divining powers? Verily, to the loftiest height had I to fly, to find again the well of delight!"

--------My point exactly. What do we care for the rabble or Nietzsche's loathing thereof - the well of delight is free from both. Your facination with odium is a function of your facination with the rabble.

"Zarathustra leaves no doubt at this point: he says that it was his insight precisely into the good, the "best," that made him shudder at man in general; that it was from this aversion that he grew wings "to soar off into distant futures[.]"

--------I don't see you growing any wings. Well, sometimes, but you cut them off before they can take you anywhere.

Granted.

--------Why, thank you.

So then, he suffers from the overfulness of his joy. Beavis does not.

--------Cornholio does. Look at the guy. He doesn't know what to do with all that power but to constantly proclaim to everyone how great it is.

Well, then I must have got that idea from nowhere!

--------Prophets prophesize according to their own convictions.

I was talking from the perspective of one who dwells on earth.

-------Ah. At night, then.

There the term "blond beast" has become a metaphor.

------ A very bad one. Beast of prey would have sufficed -blond has become irrelevant - which shows that Nietzsche's racism was uninspired.

I am not so sure you have rendered it right here - in any case, I can't recall the passage in question. But then that is probably due to my memory, which - in contradistinction to some, it has been implied - is selective...

------If you really don't remember, your memory is selective. It is a remarkable passage, and, if I have rendered it right, certainly very important.

Thus spake Asserthustra.

-------How poetic.
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Postby Jakob » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:23 pm

Dunamis wrote:
Sauwelios wrote:
Jakob wrote:"Hysterical"... You have become a Dunamite!



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Stand back. Watch how it explodes.

Well well... the enemies shake hands.
:evilfun: :evilfun: :evilfun: :evilfun:
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Postby detrop » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:25 pm

Thus spake Asserthustra.


Ahuh-huh..huh..

He said "Asserthustra"...

Huh..huh..

Check this out, Beavis...

Ahuh-huh...huh...huh...

Ass-Thruster....

A-HUH-HUH-HUH!!!
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Postby Jakob » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:03 pm

"Now try drinking this water with your nose"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0uVIXYUNVU
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Postby Sauwelios » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:00 pm

Jakob wrote:
evidence you gave of Nietzsche's racism.

"Hysterical"... You have become a Dunamite!

----Yes, I've become a slave to your Great Enemy...

Is racism not simply the notion that there is such a thing as race?

-----No.

So then what is it?


it was never my assertion, but has always been a joke. You first made it into an assertion by taking it seriously.

-----So what it was a joke? It showed more spirit than all your serious exhibitions in that thread combined. That it negated them as well was part of it's wit.

Wit is not the same as spirit. The former would be esprit in Nietzsche, the latter Geist. So, it showed more esprit. So what? Hell, I did not even think it was particularly witty. Perhaps it just resonated more to your spirit.-


When is one ever not determined by "external" factors?

------When one is inspired.

Inspired by what - by something "internal"?


I'm getting enough of your disrespectful metaphors.

------<i>You</i> are getting tired of <i>my</i> disrespect? I hope that is a joke.

"[T]he chatter of the petty and the poor in spirit is a terrible torment for the ears of those who remember with a shudder that the destiny of humanity depends upon the attainment of its highest type."
[Nietzsche, WP 987.]


"Did my loathing itself create for me wings and fountain-divining powers? Verily, to the loftiest height had I to fly, to find again the well of delight!"

--------My point exactly. What do we care for the rabble or Nietzsche's loathing thereof - the well of delight is free from both. Your facination with odium is a function of your facination with the rabble.

Nonsense, and another failed attempt on your part to provoke me. The rabble is the order of the day...

"The great majority of men have no right to existence, but are a misfortune to higher men."
[WP 872.]

Thus the fate (the fortune) of the higher men depends upon the great majority of men, upon the rabble!

"How wretched is the "New Testament" compared to Manu, how foul it smells!— Yet this organization too found it necessary to be terrible—this time not in the struggle with beasts, but with their counter-concept, the unbred man, the mishmash man, the chandala. And again it had no other means for keeping him from being dangerous, for making him weak, than to make him sick—it was the fight with the "great number.""
[Twilight, "Improvers", 3.]


"Zarathustra leaves no doubt at this point: he says that it was his insight precisely into the good, the "best," that made him shudder at man in general; that it was from this aversion that he grew wings "to soar off into distant futures[.]"

--------I don't see you growing any wings. Well, sometimes, but you cut them off before they can take you anywhere.

You don't see me at all, remember?

You have shown a disturbing displeasure at all signals I gave of the greatest health - I wonder why that is?


Granted.

--------Why, thank you.

So then, he suffers from the overfulness of his joy. Beavis does not.

--------Cornholio does. Look at the guy. He doesn't know what to do with all that power but to constantly proclaim to everyone how great it is.

Well, then I must have got that idea from nowhere!

--------Prophets prophesize according to their own convictions.

I was talking from the perspective of one who dwells on earth.

-------Ah. At night, then.

Of course: I compared it to the full moon, didn't I?


There the term "blond beast" has become a metaphor.

------ A very bad one. Beast of prey would have sufficed -blond has become irrelevant - which shows that Nietzsche's racism was uninspired.

Commander Merlin has said the following about this:

"Nietzsche makes it clear in the Genealogy that he derives the phrase 'Blond Beasts' from the blond Aryan invaders of Europe. That he finds similar cultural/martial characteristics in the Arabs and the Japanese does not negate the racial derivation of the phrase."
[Re: Some things to remember/consider]

Bill, on the other hand, said the following:

The Nazis allied with the Japanese race!
Hitler said that the Japanese had 'aryanlike' qualities!
This is all old news.

Of course, the Japanese, like the Teutons, had preserved their warrior/aristocracy.
Although Europe was then (and even more so now) in mortal danger, by allowing the castes to mix - but the basic material was still there.

The Jews though, as I have explained in the posts above, had lost their warrior caste.

Hitler thought that the Slavs also [as their name implies!] were without a warrior caste [Russia was created by the Viking Russ, who traded Slavs as slaves with the Turks and Arabs], and had mixed with the Mongols etc., [not all Nazis agree with him on this point, then as now, and feel that a White Europe should extend as far as Vladivostok [see the work of Thiriart for example].

It must be noted that some parts of the Arab race was/is also allied to the Nazis; again, this is due to their preservation of a warrior/aristocracy.

Here the Nazis are in accord with Nietzsche, who included the Japanese and Arabs amongst 'Blond Beasts'.

[What This Actually Said]

So Nietzsche's assertion that the blond beast is at the core of all noble races appears to be neither sloppy nor "uninspired".

One's "blond bestiality" does not betray itself so much in one's hair colour;

"[T]his hidden core needs to discharge from time to time, the animal has to get out again and go back to the wilderness: the Roman, Arabian, Germanic, Japanese nobility, the Homeric heroes, the Scandinavian Vikings—in regard to this need they are all alike."
[GM I, 11.]


I am not so sure you have rendered it right here - in any case, I can't recall the passage in question. But then that is probably due to my memory, which - in contradistinction to some, it has been implied - is selective...

------If you really don't remember, your memory is selective. It is a remarkable passage, and, if I have rendered it right, certainly very important.

Is there any memory that is not selective?
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Postby aspacia » Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:24 am

Uniqor wrote:aspacia ma'm, I am flattered that you recall my humble existence from a couple of month ago. What it matters that you totally confused my name with somebody else'? :)

I missed you among many others as well. By the way, I have just checked out the photo thread, to my disappointment, what I saw was only yet one more detrop. It's just that I wish girls here would be that open. When therefore, are you going to post a photograph of yourself?


I may have confused you with, who was it? I do not remember as it was quite a qhile ago. My apologies sir.

I will probably never post another picture of myself as another poster, you probably know who, is going to have it printed on his ass wipes, however, I have already used his for target practice. The photo is on the Post a Picture of Yourself thread, and remember I was glaring at mummy as she always had her trusty camera ready to snap flicks of me in almost any situation, including being a teen with curlers in my hair.

I do have some recent ones, mandatory for work, perhaps I will send one via pm to you. I have never photographed well, but then many people do not.

With regards,

aspacia 8)
"The moment you give up your principles and your values, the moment you laugh at those principles and those values, you are dead, your culture is dead, your civilization is dead. Period." Oriana Fallaci

God Bless America, The Land of the Free and Home of the Brave -- but with flaws that we are working on.

Qui es ignarus quod tumidus ero ignarus

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The idealist is incorrigible: if he is thrown out of heaven he makes an ideal of his hell. Friedrich Nietzsche

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Postby aspacia » Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:38 am

détrop wrote:
Is it only an accident?


I don't think I understand your post but I will tell you this; regardless of whether or not this universe is an accident, the possibilites are quite obvious concerning the survival of this human species, those things pertaining to the very real physical reality we live in.

What they lack is a goal. The Sun is going to explode one day; so they become philosophers and nihilists? But that is no solution....that's just a great "meanwhile" in outer-space.

I speak of extremely severe politics from this decade forward, and death to the philosophers. We are entering into the age of emergency. Its now or never.


Chuckle, when hasn't humanity been in a state of emergency. The real emergency started with nukes and the Cold War. We had drop and cover drills back in the 50's and 60's. Also, pollution was far worse then as we had almost daily smog alerts during the summers.

Sure we have problems, but they really are not any worse than when I was a kid.

Smile for that detrop.

With regards,

aspacia
Deist, capitalist. 8)
"The moment you give up your principles and your values, the moment you laugh at those principles and those values, you are dead, your culture is dead, your civilization is dead. Period." Oriana Fallaci

God Bless America, The Land of the Free and Home of the Brave -- but with flaws that we are working on.

Qui es ignarus quod tumidus ero ignarus

fight CAIR
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Know your friends well; know your enemies better. Know their weakness and exploit it to your advantage.

The idealist is incorrigible: if he is thrown out of heaven he makes an ideal of his hell. Friedrich Nietzsche

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Postby detrop » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:15 am

Smile for that detrop.


Something tells me that this planet might be better off by and large now, had the Nazis won WW2....

Just speculation though. Imagine the tighest system of control clenching its fist around the world.

You so much as look in the wrong direction and you die. No questions asked.

That's how you run a tight ship.

A national socialism which would be "getting comfortable" righta bout now in 2006. No rap music, no Nas-Car, and no Aspacias.

Good enough.

I'll take it.
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Postby detrop » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:22 am

Beware Capitalist scum, the bolshevik children have iron discipline and their numbers are large. The day shall come:

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Postby detrop » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:23 am

(if you post a picture of the dead Che I'll smack you)
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Postby Jakob » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:55 am

Sauwelios wrote:[-X [-X [-X

Your memory is especially selective - I have never liked your evangelizing. You always seem very pleased to notice that I am 'disturbed'. I am displeased by what I perceive as your lack of ambition. You have not attained Bill's style. One of Bills motto's was 'what do I matter?' Until you affirm that you do not matter, I will be 'disturbed'

Why? Because your identification with and deification of Nietzsche's weakness, your emphasis of his running away from the herd to a safe mountaintop, and your complete lack of expression of mountain-sun, is an opiate to the masses. You make the boys and girls feel safe - more powerful than Nietzsche. 'Oh... poor Nietzsche...' they think. The fact that you are such a good writer makes you the perfect man for the job. The Saul of Nietzsche.

The more I think about it, the more I feel I am justified in making clear to you how little respect I have for your 'great health' which you owe entirely to parasiting on Nietzsche, and hollowing him out.
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Postby Jakob » Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:14 am

détrop wrote:
Smile for that detrop.


Something tells me that this planet might be better off by and large now, had the Nazis won WW2....

Just speculation though. Imagine the tighest system of control clenching its fist around the world.

You so much as look in the wrong direction and you die. No questions asked.

That's how you run a tight ship.

A national socialism which would be "getting comfortable" righta bout now in 2006. No rap music, no Nas-Car, and no Aspacias.

Good enough.

I'll take it.

The thought that the nazi's ran a tight ship is a sailor-boy's wet dream, not based on reality. The only reason they lost the war (which they might very well have won) was that Hitler was too sloppy to be commander in chief. For example, he overslept with 6 hours on the morning of D-day, so no command could go out for reenforcements at the beach.
He sent his soldiers to winter Russia without coats, because he thought he would inflame them with his psychic heat. The sloppiest bunch of the lot, with a chain of command more defective and orders more arbitrary than any free-the-panda-smokers-hopers club of hippy-activist. The west would probably be plague infected, the last traces of culture rotting away if the corporate-facists had given up and left the bounty to the dreamers as you would have liked.

Capitalism is the most tightly ran ship since the absolute rule of the Egyptian priest-kings. Try to imagine a mob of drunks accomplishing in Washington what they di on a yearly basis in Rome - or in Berlin in '89 and in Moscow in '91. Absurd. Why do you think rap music propagates the most hopeless forms of ethnic depravity? Do you think it is because of freedom of expression? Our commander in chief doesn't have to kill anyone looking the other way - nobody wants to look another way.
Read section IV of the Will to Power. A lot more relevant to controlling the hearts of man than Marx on Feurbach.
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Postby Sauwelios » Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:53 pm

Jakob wrote:
Sauwelios wrote:
Jakob wrote:
evidence you gave of Nietzsche's racism.

"Hysterical"... You have become a Dunamite!

----Yes, I've become a slave to your Great Enemy...

Is racism not simply the notion that there is such a thing as race?

-----No.

So then what is it?


it was never my assertion, but has always been a joke. You first made it into an assertion by taking it seriously.

-----So what it was a joke? It showed more spirit than all your serious exhibitions in that thread combined. That it negated them as well was part of it's wit.

Wit is not the same as spirit. The former would be esprit in Nietzsche, the latter Geist. So, it showed more esprit. So what? Hell, I did not even think it was particularly witty. Perhaps it just resonated more to your spirit.-


When is one ever not determined by "external" factors?

------When one is inspired.

Inspired by what - by something "internal"?


I'm getting enough of your disrespectful metaphors.

------<i>You</i> are getting tired of <i>my</i> disrespect? I hope that is a joke.

"[T]he chatter of the petty and the poor in spirit is a terrible torment for the ears of those who remember with a shudder that the destiny of humanity depends upon the attainment of its highest type."
[Nietzsche, WP 987.]


"Did my loathing itself create for me wings and fountain-divining powers? Verily, to the loftiest height had I to fly, to find again the well of delight!"

--------My point exactly. What do we care for the rabble or Nietzsche's loathing thereof - the well of delight is free from both. Your facination with odium is a function of your facination with the rabble.

Nonsense, and another failed attempt on your part to provoke me. The rabble is the order of the day...

"The great majority of men have no right to existence, but are a misfortune to higher men."
[WP 872.]

Thus the fate (the fortune) of the higher men depends upon the great majority of men, upon the rabble!

"How wretched is the "New Testament" compared to Manu, how foul it smells!— Yet this organization too found it necessary to be terrible—this time not in the struggle with beasts, but with their counter-concept, the unbred man, the mishmash man, the chandala. And again it had no other means for keeping him from being dangerous, for making him weak, than to make him sick—it was the fight with the "great number.""
[Twilight, "Improvers", 3.]


"Zarathustra leaves no doubt at this point: he says that it was his insight precisely into the good, the "best," that made him shudder at man in general; that it was from this aversion that he grew wings "to soar off into distant futures[.]"

--------I don't see you growing any wings. Well, sometimes, but you cut them off before they can take you anywhere.

You don't see me at all, remember?

You have shown a disturbing displeasure at all signals I gave of the greatest health - I wonder why that is?


Granted.

--------Why, thank you.

So then, he suffers from the overfulness of his joy. Beavis does not.

--------Cornholio does. Look at the guy. He doesn't know what to do with all that power but to constantly proclaim to everyone how great it is.

Well, then I must have got that idea from nowhere!

--------Prophets prophesize according to their own convictions.

I was talking from the perspective of one who dwells on earth.

-------Ah. At night, then.

Of course: I compared it to the full moon, didn't I?


There the term "blond beast" has become a metaphor.

------ A very bad one. Beast of prey would have sufficed -blond has become irrelevant - which shows that Nietzsche's racism was uninspired.

Commander Merlin has said the following about this:

"Nietzsche makes it clear in the Genealogy that he derives the phrase 'Blond Beasts' from the blond Aryan invaders of Europe. That he finds similar cultural/martial characteristics in the Arabs and the Japanese does not negate the racial derivation of the phrase."
[Re: Some things to remember/consider]

Bill, on the other hand, said the following:

The Nazis allied with the Japanese race!
Hitler said that the Japanese had 'aryanlike' qualities!
This is all old news.

Of course, the Japanese, like the Teutons, had preserved their warrior/aristocracy.
Although Europe was then (and even more so now) in mortal danger, by allowing the castes to mix - but the basic material was still there.

The Jews though, as I have explained in the posts above, had lost their warrior caste.

Hitler thought that the Slavs also [as their name implies!] were without a warrior caste [Russia was created by the Viking Russ, who traded Slavs as slaves with the Turks and Arabs], and had mixed with the Mongols etc., [not all Nazis agree with him on this point, then as now, and feel that a White Europe should extend as far as Vladivostok [see the work of Thiriart for example].

It must be noted that some parts of the Arab race was/is also allied to the Nazis; again, this is due to their preservation of a warrior/aristocracy.

Here the Nazis are in accord with Nietzsche, who included the Japanese and Arabs amongst 'Blond Beasts'.

[What This Actually Said]

So Nietzsche's assertion that the blond beast is at the core of all noble races appears to be neither sloppy nor "uninspired".

One's "blond bestiality" does not betray itself so much in one's hair colour;

"[T]his hidden core needs to discharge from time to time, the animal has to get out again and go back to the wilderness: the Roman, Arabian, Germanic, Japanese nobility, the Homeric heroes, the Scandinavian Vikings—in regard to this need they are all alike."
[GM I, 11.]


I am not so sure you have rendered it right here - in any case, I can't recall the passage in question. But then that is probably due to my memory, which - in contradistinction to some, it has been implied - is selective...

------If you really don't remember, your memory is selective. It is a remarkable passage, and, if I have rendered it right, certainly very important.

Is there any memory that is not selective?

Your memory is especially selective - I have never liked your evangelizing. You always seem very pleased to notice that I am 'disturbed'. I am displeased by what I perceive as your lack of ambition. You have not attained Bill's style. One of Bills motto's was 'what do I matter?' Until you affirm that you do not matter, I will be 'disturbed'

Ah, all memories are selective, but mine is especially selective. Well, that may or may not be, in any case there is nothing I can do about it - the selection occurs wholly unconsciously.

I did not say you were disturbed; now that's sloppy (reading). I said that your behaviour was disturbing - to me.

Now for something else: Zarathustra's reason for declaring all gods dead. This is not the same as his, and Nietzsche's own, reason for declaring God dead (which is that the Christian God has become unbelievable).

"To repeat: how many new gods [Götter] are still possible!- Zarathustra himself, to be sure, is merely an old atheist: he believes neither in old nor new gods. Zarathustra says he would [believe in a God who could dance]; but Zarathustra will not- Do not misunderstand him.
The type of God after the type of creative spirits, of "great men.""
[WP 1038.]
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Postby Jakob » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:13 pm

I edited my post Sauwelios. To be short: I have no need for your biblification of Nietzsche. But I'm sure you can make some money of it - 'Nietzsche for the Moon-sick' or 'Revelations of a Rabid God'
Who knows you could then afford a retreat to actual mountains, breathe clean air, and maybe understand something of the higher man.
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Postby Sauwelios » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:39 pm

Jakob wrote:I edited my post Sauwelios. To be short: I have no need for your biblification of Nietzsche. But I'm sure you can make some money of it - 'Nietzsche for the Moon-sick' or 'Revelations of a Rabid God'
Who knows you could then afford a retreat to actual mountains, breathe clean air, and maybe understand something of the higher man.

Go on, continue making your assertions, and presenting a selective reading of Nietzsche. You can ignore my rebuttals of those I may make when I come across them.

By the way, when I want to add something to a post I already made, I simply quote it (entire, or just the relevant passage(s)), and then make a new post of my addendum. I think this is to be preferred above editing your post (except for making minor corrections to it, such as typo's and spelling errors), as it does not break the chronological order of the thread.
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Postby detrop » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:32 pm

The only reason they lost the war (which they might very well have won) was that Hitler was too sloppy to be commander in chief. For example, he overslept with 6 hours on the morning of D-day, so no command could go out for reenforcements at the beach.


Well there are endless theories as to what caused the loss of the war. Probably the biggest deciding event was the decoy radio transmission regarding the target beachs for the allied ships waiting off the coast. The Nazis were fooled into believing that the heaviest attacks would take place where they really wouldn't after intercepting the false transmission.

They reinforced the wrong defenses along the coast line. Himmler, bless his soul...was a damn good general if I may say, but his day had come.
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Postby Jakob » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:38 pm

Sauwelios wrote:Go on, continue making your assertions, and presenting a selective reading of Nietzsche. You can ignore my rebuttals of those I may make when I come across them.

I have demonstrated with perfect clarity why odium is not necessary. It is a means to separates one from the herd. When one is allready on a mountaintop, there is no need for odium. You hate, therefore are not on a mountaintop. Is this not clear reasoning?
Let me make it even more clear: why does Nietzsche go grow wings to soar away when he feels odium? Because he wants to be free from that odium, so he can be his glorious self.
It is ridiculous to preach odium. Hate and disgust is something one feels instinctively when coming across something that threatens the expression of the self. Odium is a means to self expression, not an end.
I clearly see why you identify with Nietzsche's odium. So do I. So does every creative being. So are most things in Nietzsche - that is his genius. I challenge you to show me something in Nietzsche I have not understood.
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Postby Jakob » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:50 pm

détrop wrote:
The only reason they lost the war (which they might very well have won) was that Hitler was too sloppy to be commander in chief. For example, he overslept with 6 hours on the morning of D-day, so no command could go out for reenforcements at the beach.


Well there are endless theories as to what caused the loss of the war. Probably the biggest deciding event was the decoy radio transmission regarding the target beachs for the allied ships waiting off the coast. The Nazis were fooled into believing that the heaviest attacks would take place where they really wouldn't after intercepting the false transmission.

They reinforced the wrong defenses along the coast line. Himmler, bless his soul...was a damn good general if I may say, but his day had come.

The point is that they were hotheaded maniacs, and hotheaded maniacs do not run tight ships. Hitler had no thought. Neither did Stalin. Both were plebs. Roosevelt was an intellectual and Churchill was a thinker. He knew the dialectic process. That made him a more powerful commander than Hitler and Stalin, who believed in absolutes, like vulgar men of the mob.
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Postby Sauwelios » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:24 pm

Jakob wrote:
Sauwelios wrote:Go on, continue making your assertions, and presenting a selective reading of Nietzsche. You can ignore my rebuttals of those I may make when I come across them.

I have demonstrated with perfect clarity why odium is not necessary. It is a means to separates one from the herd. When one is allready on a mountaintop, there is no need for odium. You hate, therefore are not on a mountaintop. Is this not clear reasoning?

Sure - except how do you know that I hate?

By the way, there is a difference between hating and loathing. Horace's odium is loathing. It is a question of looking up against or looking down upon.

Now, as I do not literally live on a mountaintop, I come across people whom I loathe. Perhaps I even come across people whom I hate (i.e., who inflame in me the hatred of myself); but these are not the same people.

"Catiline—the form of pre-existence of every Caesar.—"
[Twilight, Skirmishes, 45.]


Jakob wrote:Let me make it even more clear: why does Nietzsche go grow wings to soar away when he feels odium? Because he wants to be free from that odium, so he can be his glorious self.

Indeed: "I loathe thee; and I hate loathing."


It is ridiculous to preach odium. Hate and disgust is something one feels instinctively when coming across something that threatens the expression of the self.

Oh, so the selves of those wallowing in the mire are simply not threatened?

"Though Zarathustra avoids it, his speech [Of the Flies in the Market-Place] provokes he disturbing question: what kind of delicate creature is this potential superman who allows himself to be driven from society by flies?"
[Peter Berkowitz, Nietzsche: The Ethics of an Immoralist, page 169.]


Odium is a means to self expression, not an end.
I clearly see why you identify with Nietzsche's odium. So do I. So does every creative being. So are most things in Nietzsche - that is his genius. I challenge you to show me something in Nietzsche I have not understood.

I think it is you who identify me overly with Nietzsche's odium. Anyway, I will accept your challenge. Please explain the second proposition of Nietzsche's Decree Against Christianity, which he did at the end of The Antichristian:

"Every participation in divine service is an assassination attempt on public morality. One should be more severe toward Protestants than toward Catholics, more severe toward liberal Protestants than toward the orthodox. The criminal character of a Christian increases when he approaches knowledge [die Wissenschaft]. The criminal of criminals is consequently the philosopher."
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Postby aspacia » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:07 am

détrop wrote:
Smile for that detrop.


Something tells me that this planet might be better off by and large now, had the Nazis won WW2....

Just speculation though. Imagine the tighest system of control clenching its fist around the world.

You so much as look in the wrong direction and you die. No questions asked.

That's how you run a tight ship.

A national socialism which would be "getting comfortable" righta bout now in 2006. No rap music, no Nas-Car, and no Aspacias.

Good enough.

I'll take it.


Chuckle, so move to China, Cuba or North Korea. They live with no freedoms, no posting your thoughts.

At the moment I wish all the Marxists would move to another land, I enjoy my freedoms, but you seem afraid to claim that you enjoy yours and prefer control, totalitarian dictatorships.

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Postby aspacia » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:13 am

détrop wrote:
The only reason they lost the war (which they might very well have won) was that Hitler was too sloppy to be commander in chief. For example, he overslept with 6 hours on the morning of D-day, so no command could go out for reenforcements at the beach.


Well there are endless theories as to what caused the loss of the war. Probably the biggest deciding event was the decoy radio transmission regarding the target beachs for the allied ships waiting off the coast. The Nazis were fooled into believing that the heaviest attacks would take place where they really wouldn't after intercepting the false transmission.

They reinforced the wrong defenses along the coast line. Himmler, bless his soul...was a damn good general if I may say, but his day had come.


Supporting genocidal maniacs, this is a new low for you.

Chuckle, it was more than the decoy that lost the war, the two fronts, the Russian winter, added with the fact that we cut their supply lines, go gas. Can't run a conventional war without gas.
"The moment you give up your principles and your values, the moment you laugh at those principles and those values, you are dead, your culture is dead, your civilization is dead. Period." Oriana Fallaci

God Bless America, The Land of the Free and Home of the Brave -- but with flaws that we are working on.

Qui es ignarus quod tumidus ero ignarus

fight CAIR
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Know your friends well; know your enemies better. Know their weakness and exploit it to your advantage.

The idealist is incorrigible: if he is thrown out of heaven he makes an ideal of his hell. Friedrich Nietzsche

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Postby Jakob » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:13 pm

Every participation in divine service is an assassination attempt on public morality. One should be more severe toward Protestants than toward Catholics, more severe toward liberal Protestants than toward the orthodox. The criminal character of a Christian increases when he approaches knowledge [die Wissenschaft]. The criminal of criminals is consequently the philosopher.

As religion becomes more iberal and less an identification with the church, it's focus shifts from obedience to a centralized political authority (the pope in the case of Catholicism) to an increasinglly uncontrollable and unverifyable authority of God in oneself - it's ultimate consequence in (the likes of) Spinoza, who rejects all influence from outside as coming from God, arguing that the only holy law man can know is what his body dictates. As God becomes more an object of experience and less of worship, morality grows from public to private. Secular law becomes irrelevant: crime.
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Postby detrop » Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:04 pm

Supporting genocidal maniacs, this is a new low for you.


I don't support it. I don't support anything really. However I would bet that the population explosion that has occured since the fifties, and the increase of famine and poverty in the undeveloped primitive countries, as well as at home in this "battle of consumer classes", wouldn't be happening at such a rate and with such momentum, now, if WW2 ended differently.

This doesn't involve my opinion. I don't care about politics. Hitlers philosophical ideals were silly, but his political ideologies shared a consistency with many aspects of marxism. National Socialism is an innovation from marxism because it is a historical materialism and is therefore grounded in communism.

There is nothing "wrong" with genocide, but this doesn't mean that it is necessary either.

I am no Kantian. I am a Consequentialist-Pragmatist-Isicist.

...and remember, the ocean is the ultimate solution.
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