What is time?

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What is time?

Postby ApocalypseOfWar » Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:36 pm

One of probably a hundred questions, is time infinite?

Our definition of infinite is an expnase which continues forevor, a beginning that keeps changes places to before it was created. Can we actually view time as a graph in geometry where x is time and y is space? And each event is a coordinate and we measure it by years?

Well, if time is infinite, then each event would as well expand within infinite time in turn making it infinite. If each event expanded unto other events' origin, then this would create a paradox.

My theory is that if you can distincly measure something, it is not infinite for the measurements would change all the time.

Maybe the question of infinite is for another post, but I am here now, feedback please of what you think.
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Re: What is time?

Postby Exist » Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:55 pm

ApocalypseOfWar wrote:Well, if time is infinite, then each event would as well expand within infinite time in turn making it infinite. If each event expanded unto other events' origin, then this would create a paradox.


What?

I don't know if time is infinite. But infinite only means it has no end, not that it doesn't have a definite beginning from which to measure it.
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Postby Mainiac » Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:03 pm

Personally I don't believe anything can be infinite. Everything ends at some point, life ends, stars die, I'm sure galaxies must fade away eventually. Everything has some sort of end eventually, I think its probably too far away into the future or into the past for us to conceptualize or understnad hence we come up with the idea of infinity but eventually... everything begins and everything ends.
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Postby Future Man » Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:08 am

I don't believe anything can be infinite


well imagine the 3d universe is like the 2d surface of a sphere.

you go in one direction long enough youll end up back where you started, except 30billion+yrs passed. therefore you could go around that circle forever and always see something different.

15 billion years ago it was all a dot of hotness you were travelling around, but soon after and before that point, it was a space either contracting or expanding in some way.

cycles can be infinite if they are maintained from the outside somehow. the way its maintained doesnt need to be understood in order to see from within the cycle that its going to go on forever.

My theory is that if you can distincly measure something, it is not infinite for the measurements would change all the time.
who said we could ever distinctly measure exactly what happens inside an atom sized big bang
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Postby northcutt » Sun Oct 24, 2004 2:18 am

the way its maintained doesnt need to be understood in order to see from within the cycle that its going to go on forever.


Not as long as faith exists, no. Otherwise, and from a scientific viewpoint, I think it does.

who said we could ever distinctly measure exactly what happens inside an atom sized big bang


And who says we won't? We didn't even know atoms existed until a short time ago, let alone that we'd be able to break them down as far as we have so far. I think people find too much certainty is systems that we haven't explored a full 1%.

We have no proven evidence of any system in the Universe that is infinite. We also have no examle of life coming from something that isn't alive, and we are fairly sure we're alive, so I guess I'll be agnostic.
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Postby ApocalypseOfWar » Sun Oct 24, 2004 2:31 am

You guys need to understand that just because we cant measure it doesnt mean it cant be measured. If something doesn't have an end, then it must not have a beginning because within infinite, any point is the center.
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Postby Iroel » Sun Oct 24, 2004 2:33 am

Is the horizon in which we can comprehend being?
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Postby ApocalypseOfWar » Sun Oct 24, 2004 2:35 am

Is it what?
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Re: What is time?

Postby Obw » Sun Oct 24, 2004 2:50 am

ApocalypseOfWar wrote:Our definition of infinite is an expnase which continues forevor, a beginning that keeps changes places to before it was created.


Hi,

Given your definition of infinite to work with, my first comment would be on your use of the word 'expanse'. To me this implies a material or physical surface such as land or sea. If time is an expanse that is not physically set in a particular place, then one would expect that expanse to have set and measurable limits.

Your theory is more attractive:

My theory is that if you can distincly measure something, it is not infinite for the measurements would change all the time.


I can distinctly measure my pencil. I am looking at it and it is distinctly measured to 9 cms. My pen is distinctly measured to 8.5 cms. Neither are infinite by your definition nor anyone elses.

You say that things which are measurable are not inifinite because such things would change all the time. That makes little sense to me because by virtue of being distinctly measurable, an item such as time is surely a constant. It cannot change all the time because it is distinctly measurable. Time is therefore by your definition, a constant.
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Postby ApocalypseOfWar » Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:19 am

I see your point, but we are not quite on the same track...

By expanse, I mean something which continues forevor. Think of the Universe (no dispute here please) it has been proven that it is 'expanding' because the galxies continue to move away from one another. Henceforth we can not accurately measure the distance to any Galaxy because they continue to move farther away.

I hope that cleared a few things up, if not, ask specific questions.
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Postby Future Man » Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:09 am

My theory is that if you can distincly measure something, it is not infinite for the measurements would change all the time.


if you distinctly measure the size of something, then youve measured its size at one tiny point in time.

if you measure the rate at which it changes, then you will know where it is in the future. if we measure that the universe has a force expanding it outward that is greater than the forces that are contracting it inward, then it ends up that the big bang was in fact the arbitrary starting point and the end is a slow cold expanding freeze as all hydrogen is turned into heavier, non-star creating elements.

if gravity is strong enough, then it will all eventually collapse back in, at which point we are back at a place that resembles the unknown starting point, and therefore is also unknown.

something doesn't have an end, then it must not have a beginning because within infinite, any point is the center.


this is the typically belief of somebody who lives in this universe. imagine someday that what we observe as the passing of time is nothing more than a physical process just like magnetism and gravity.

would you today, say that if there is a god, he is uncontrollably affected by gravity? of course not. and by the same logic he would not be affeted by time. he would not indicate his position by saying that today it is 5000bc ill go make a universe, he would say something that we couldnt possibly understand.

saying something is infinite is our way of coping with those things that are greater that us and impossible to understand
"those who take the sword will die by the sword... it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." - some jerk nobody cares about, Jim or Jesus or something
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Noam Chomsky- wrong due to underestimation of Cold War fear in America. DUH.
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Postby ApocalypseOfWar » Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:15 am

Lol This has been fun, but my original aim of writing this was to prove that time CANNOT be infinite. All your views are well appreciated and have been taken into account for future revisions of my theory, but FutureMan, just like on the 'Peace of Mind' post, you are thinking inside the box. This is what I was thinking: Ask yourself, what is before and after the Universe, or what is it expanding into?
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Postby Future Man » Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:42 am

what is before and after the Universe

Future Man wrote:he would not indicate his position by saying that today it is 5000bc ill go make a universe, he would say something that we couldnt possibly understand.


what is it expanding into


refer to 'the big bang is actually the big shrink' in natural sciences. which i will now write so give me a minute
"those who take the sword will die by the sword... it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." - some jerk nobody cares about, Jim or Jesus or something
"The purpose of government is the greatest quantity of human happiness...."-John Adams
"A common man marvels at uncommon things; a wise man marvels at the commonplace"- Confucius
Noam Chomsky- wrong due to underestimation of Cold War fear in America. DUH.
"If you wish to make Pythocles wealthy, don't give him more money; rather, reduce his desires." - Epicurus

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to do the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger"
Hermann Goering, officer of the democratically elected Nazi party, referring to the corporate led war against communism
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Postby Obw » Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:03 pm

ApocalypseOfWar wrote:I see your point, but we are not quite on the same track...

By expanse, I mean something which continues forevor. Think of the Universe (no dispute here please) it has been proven that it is 'expanding' because the galxies continue to move away from one another. Henceforth we can not accurately measure the distance to any Galaxy because they continue to move farther away.

I hope that cleared a few things up, if not, ask specific questions.


Well, an expanse does not continue forever but ok, I will accept that and also accept that the universe is expanding constantly (rather than in fits and spurts).

By your definitions it is ok to put time on a graph when we refer to the past as it has been measured, which is good enough for our graph.

What I suspect you are suggesting now is that an hour tomorrow will not be the same length as an hour yesterday. However, I do not see how this gets you any closer to time being or not being infinite.
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Postby ApocalypseOfWar » Sun Oct 24, 2004 5:52 pm

Oxford, Ok, If an expanse was not infinite and had a set measurement, then it would not be expanding now would it. I hate to use definitions but:

Expand- to increase the extent, number, volume, or scope of

It has no definite end, where the beginning is unknown but any point may be a starting point at which infinite is equal on both sides.

And it does get me closer to proving time is not infinite BECAUSE an hour yesterday IS the same amount of time as an hour WILL BE tomorrow( In your own words).
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Postby Obw » Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:57 pm

Why? You're not providing any reasons. I want to get to the truth of this too.

No need to bring up expanse, I already accepted your definitions for the purpose of this thread.
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Postby askewd » Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:15 pm

everything begins and everything ends.


Nothing begins. nothing ends, all is, and always will be.

do you realise that the big bang is happening in this very moment right now? Not millions of years 'out of reach' as you think. Your consciousness can alter the 'outcome' of the big bang! Fantasy I hear you laugh!!! l o l.


We think we live in the "moment" between past and future. But how big is this moment? It is valueless. it has to be. (if you do give it a value I can instantly half your value so you know your value is wrong)

So one moment of time = a 'time' value of ZERO

How many moments have gone past since the "start" ? billions? so what are billions of zeros? STILL ZERO!

Time doesn't exist. Is's all about state of consciousness, and for us humans, consciousness is a very limited thing (at the moment).

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Postby ApocalypseOfWar » Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:37 pm

Referring to one of my other threads, the moment between past and future(present) is a value of 0/some number; some number/0 where the number can never reach zero nor one.

Oxford, I honestly can't figure a way to explain what I am trying to say in a way you would understand it, Time is not infinite because if it were, each event which occurs would collide with othr events and disrupt the content of the event creating a paradoxial dejavu where there are no definite origins of events. If someone understands this, please explain it better.
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Postby tmminionman » Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:54 pm

I can honestly say i don't understand that logic at all. the X and Y axis of any graph are infinite. yet the coordinates on the plane are still perfectly meaningful. if time is infinite, then there is no boundary, and so nothing has any absolute age. Everything has a perfectly well defined age if measured from an arbitrary zero point.
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Postby ApocalypseOfWar » Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:08 am

Let's see if I can do this...

Say that time IS infinite.
We measure the time it takes to do anything
If the thing we do(event) takes place in time,
then that event becomes infinite.
So, unless infinite has a set value, the events which had already
began and ended will evntually intervene with every event of the past/future, considering the present is infinitessimal.

Consider: Infinite + Infinite = Infinite, not 2infinite
This is the exact reason that the concept of zero wasn't realized until the Roman Empire. Zero and Infinite are in fact one in the same.
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Postby meddler » Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:30 am

time may be defined as:


a form of calculable measurement, which, despite its ability to represent "infinity" (the biggest thrill in mathematics, everything) serves its most "useful purpose" as it provides a perspective of the finite.

Yet the very "stuff" it seeks to measure appeals more to a sense of the infinite than the finite. Just as in mathematics, increments can be divided into infinity, amounts added, multiplied (and subtracted) thus, there is no rational basis to perceive time otherwise.


To answer concerns about dejavus and temporal overlaps:

I can't!

No, I can suggest that there is more to "events" than we perceive (which is pretty fair and basic), and that there is no reason to omit the possibility that an infinite number of time-space continuums, and events within them, various combinations and "causal" chains exist.

time is so mysterious!!!

Imagine we are really all just this one person (God, for example) and the illusion of time is the only thing separating us from truly being One??? through this fabric of apparent separation which places us in different places and lifetimes? We are able to be WE instead of the lonely i?

In this playful sense, this is how we answer the problem of God and man, with the answer that God IS man. With the divisive element of "time," the spirit energy is able to compartmentalise itself so as to participate in thiS
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Postby tentative » Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:34 pm

Time is a finite concept of measurement allowing past, present, and a projected future. That there may be something infinite cannot include time. Time is just a man made convention of convenience, as is our concept of space.

Of course, humans function in both time and space and it seem's to work reasonably well as long as we don't take it too seriously. Infinity, as a concept, isn't 'testable', and belong's to metaphysics. Enter the mystery.

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Postby Obw » Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:42 pm

I am either not intelligent enough to understand your logic, or your logic is bad. :-?
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Postby Uniqor » Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:32 pm

Everything changes, hence time comes into place.

Evidence: the scientific facts used in the film "Forever Young".

Explaination: bodily functions cease to run, body remains the same decades later - for the body during the decades, time doesn't exist. Please don't argue that the time exists in the period as zero/frozen, not much point.
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Postby Future Man » Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:51 pm

Evidence: the scientific facts used in the film "Forever Young".

please mail me a copy or explain


Say that time IS infinite.

as in it started infinte years ago and will end in infinite years but today is observed to 'pass' at a rate of one second per second?

We measure the time it takes to do anything
by comapring it to another event whos time is used as the standard? like an episode of the simpsons took exactly 12,004 swings of the pendulum aka seconds?


If the thing we do(event) takes place in time, (if the simpsons episode took place in between + and- infinite?)
then that event becomes infinite.
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"those who take the sword will die by the sword... it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." - some jerk nobody cares about, Jim or Jesus or something
"The purpose of government is the greatest quantity of human happiness...."-John Adams
"A common man marvels at uncommon things; a wise man marvels at the commonplace"- Confucius
Noam Chomsky- wrong due to underestimation of Cold War fear in America. DUH.
"If you wish to make Pythocles wealthy, don't give him more money; rather, reduce his desires." - Epicurus

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