Please destroy my theory

I was pondering the argument of freewill and determinsim and had an idea that I hope some of you might comment upon.

Spinozoa once said that if a rock were thrown into the air and given consciousness, the rock would believe it were acting according to it’s will. I have “modernized” this theory by substituting the rock with a computer to better illustrate my question.

Suppose there were a human being typing out their thoughts, desires, etc. on a computer. Then suppose that this computer were suddenly given consciousness. While these thoughts were not the computer’s (they are the person’s typing them) the computer would think that it were happy, sad or upset because of itself. Determinists believe that humans are the same as this computer. Our actions, desires, etc. are determined by the laws of nature. We have no choice over what we do, feel, or desire.

My question is this: what if the computer realized that it was not in control of itself? Wouldn’t this in a sense liberate the computer from its ignorance? Every time the computer “felt” an emotion it could attribute it to causes outside of it’s control, i.e. the human. Although the computer may not be able change it’s feelings, it would be, I suppose, “free to realize it was not free”.

I am starting to think this might sound very similar to the theory of agency, of which I do not know much about. Any comments you have would be appreciated.

Matthew E,

Check out the last post in the thread Freedom and let me know what you think.

What makes us different from the computer is the observer; and this also give us free will, but the free will still have several limitations. I also made a picture to demonstrate the free will. As a observer you can change focus and also go deeper in the calculation. Freedom is limited to the amount of information that is available, physical limitations, and moral limitations. The computer only stores information, it has no observer, and if you do not program it to make mistakes it will use the information it have to come up with the best alternative that it is programmed to do. This alternative will be wrong if it’s not programmed right. Basically I do not think computers provide a good explenation of how our consiousness works. Computer consciousness would only be relevant in a Newton-mechanic universe.

Johan

Johan-
I may be wrong but I think we are in agreement with each other. I am not sure, but I am under the impression from your last post in the “freedom” thread that we are basically free to find out what our causes are. The more we investigate, the more “freedom” we aquire because we better understand ourselves. With my computer example, I was simply trying to illustrate that the computer could narrow down all of it’s causes to the human. While as humans, we do not (atleast yet) have the ability to narrow down our actions to a specific cause. If we could, then we would be entirely free.

I hope I haven’t butchered your ideas

Total consciousness can never really be achieved by anyone. We all rely on a false sense of something to live on i.e. security in believing in a divinity. We are all governed by some rules and ideas that are not our own. This ties in with the study of good and evil. What is real evil? How do we know when something is truly evil or worng? We are told by our society what is worng and evil, its a norm, a learned method of living.

If the computer were to become conscious, it could only see the ideas of the human as being reallity because it would have no other basis to determine what is thought by itself and what is thought by others.

Omega, you stated-

This is a good point. The computer would not be able to think outside of what the human typed. If that is the case, do we as humans have the ability to think outside what is “typed” into us?

Hmmmm…

Omega, are you arguing that without a society, there would be no good or evil? If there were a single human being on this planet, that there would be no good or evil?

Also, what do you mean by “governed by some rules and ideas that are not our own”? It sounds to me that you believe humans accept rules and ideas without thought, without reason, on faith.

some points about these posts, not completely related, since the posts i am responsding to are not:

  1. re: Johan: the notion of free will does imply an observer that has this ability to make choices, and thus is “free.” But as several thinkers have pointed out, this simply moves the debate to another level, now concerning the nature of this “observer”. Importantly, if you adopt something like a materialist view of the mind, is where this observer can be fit into the picture. The common metaphor for it is a “ghost in the machine.” Also, conceptually speaking, positing an observer can be interpreted to run into problems of regress: shouldnt there be an observer to the observer, and so forth?

  2. re: omega. You write: (1) “Total consciousness can never really be achieved by anyone. We all rely on a false sense of something to live on i.e. security in believing in a divinity. (2) We are all governed by some rules and ideas that are not our own. This ties in with the study of good and evil. What is real evil? How do we know when something is truly evil or worng? We are told by our society what is worng and evil, its a norm, a learned method of living.”

—re: (1): i really dont understand why you say this, what your reasons are. Is this an empirical observation? If so, what is the evidence? Probably you would have to clarify what you mean by “total consciousness” (saying “complete awareness” would be extremely unhelpful)

—re: (2): suppose we concede that we learn what is good and evil from society. this by itself does not necessarily imply that what we learn cannot be true. this seems to be a confusion of epistemology and metaphysics. or perhaps simply truth and justification. someone can tell me something, and perhaps be trying to intentionally decieve me: but this person can be incorrect, and what they tell me is really the truth. granted, i will know the truth “accidentally,” and probably won’t be justified in my belief. But the belief, nonetheless, may be true. Similarly with good and evil.

You are right: In a Mechanic universe my point would be absurd. Total determinism would be a fact. I’m however not putting in a “ghost”, as an observer. The substance in my model is: “experience of dynamic movements in one holistic field”. In a holistic field there exist no separate particles that interact, and in it’s turn form experience/consciousness. Experience is the the premiere function, and experience IS the dynamic movement. One is not causing the other. Experience is not actually to “observe” the dynamics in the field, this is to humanize the experience. I’m not a dualist. Must be experienced to be fully understood :slight_smile:

The human brain works as the universe as a total. As long as it’s different “parts” communicate the brain experience itself as one individual. Consciousness is actually the connection between dynamic units in the holistic field, and where there is input and output there exist centers of consciousness. The consciousness is not located to a point; the centers of consciousness; “individuals” takes place because of limitations in the communication. The field is aware throughout the substance; in every “point”, like a hologram. The term point however should not refer to the mechanical universe but the dynamic field.

Johan

Km already pointed out and you’ve already retracted your ‘ghost in the machine’ argument and thank god for that. :laughing:

Nevertheless, even as we dispense with dualism, I’m not convinced by what seems to be a kind of quantum theory of the mind (not explicity stated but certainly alluded to). If you want to posit a holistic version of mind, great, but that is perfectly consistent with Newtonian physics. We need no ‘spooky action at a distance’ to explain what goes on. The only thing we need for a sense of individuality is embodiment, the only thing we need for freedom is a sense of choice and this sense of individuality, the only thing we need to understand this choice is overdetermination. Once we understand that our choices are the result, not of one cause, but of multiple and conflicting causes, we need go no further because of the very holism present in embodiment. That is you or I or whatever.

Hard determinism and free will are not in conflict because you don’t need to have any specific ontological commitment to make a free choice. The mistake, I think, occurs when we confuse freedom, free will, the ‘I’ with metaphysical concepts and that is nothing more than dualistic residue.

Newton mechanics is not an alternative any more in my opinion. If I accept a machanic universe I also have to accept total determinism. I also think that it is absurd to fit in the experience in a mechanic universe. We are leaving the classic model of the substance. It’s healty to be open for new theories as long as paradoxes exist. Read my other posts if you want.

Here is a little more information presented in a popular format:

In 1982 a remarkable event took place. At the University of Paris a research team led by physicist Alain Aspect performed what may turn out to be one of the most important experiments of the 20th century. You did not hear about it on the evening news. In fact, unless you are in the habit of reading scientific journals you probably have never even heard Aspect’s name, though there are some who believe his discovery may change the face of science.
Aspect and his team discovered that under certain circumstances subatomic particles such as electrons are able to instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of the distance separating them. It doesn’t matter whether they are 10 feet or 10 billion miles apart. Somehow each particle always seems to know what the other is doing. The problem with this feat is that it violates Einstein’s long-held tenet that no communication can travel faster than the speed of light. Since traveling faster than the speed of light is tantamount to breaking the time barrier, this daunting prospect has caused some physicists to try to come up with elaborate ways to explain away Aspect’s findings. But it has inspired others to offer even more radical explanations.


University of London physicist David Bohm, for example, believes Aspect’s findings imply that objective reality does not exist, that despite its apparent solidity the universe is at heart a phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly detailed hologram.
To understand why Bohm makes this startling assertion, one must first understand a little about holograms. A hologram is a three- dimensional photograph made with the aid of a laser. To make a hologram, the object to be photographed is first bathed in the light of a laser beam. Then a second laser beam is bounced off the reflected light of the first and the resulting interference pattern (the area where the two laser beams commingle) is captured on film. When the film is developed, it looks like a meaningless swirl of light and dark lines. But as soon as the developed film is illuminated by another laser beam, a three-dimensional image of the original object appears.
The three-dimensionality of such images is not the only remarkable characteristic of holograms. If a hologram of a rose is cut in half and then illuminated by a laser, each half will still be found to contain the entire image of the rose. Indeed, even if the halves are divided again, each snippet of film will always be found to contain a smaller but intact version of the original image. Unlike normal photographs, every part of a hologram contains all the information possessed by the whole.
The “whole in every part” nature of a hologram provides us with an entirely new way of understanding organization and order. For most of its history, Western science has labored under the bias that the best way to understand a physical phenomenon, whether a frog or an atom, is to dissect it and study its respective parts. A hologram teaches us that some things in the universe may not lend themselves to this approach. If we try to take apart something constructed holographically, we will not get the pieces of which it is made, we will only get smaller wholes.
This insight suggested to Bohm another way of understanding Aspect’s discovery. Bohm believes the reason subatomic particles are able to remain in contact with one another regardless of the distance separating them is not because they are sending some sort of mysterious signal back and forth, but because their separateness is an illusion. He argues that at some deeper level of reality such particles are not individual entities, but are actually extensions of the same fundamental something.
To enable people to better visualize what he means, Bohm offers the following illustration. Imagine an aquarium containing a fish. Imagine also that you are unable to see the aquarium directly and your knowledge about it and what it contains comes from two television cameras, one directed at the aquarium’s front and the other directed at its side. As you stare at the two television monitors, you might assume that the fish on each of the screens are separate entities. After all, because the cameras are set at different angles, each of the images will be slightly different. But as you continue to watch the two fish, you will eventually become aware that there is a certain relationship between them. When one turns, the other also makes a slightly different but corresponding turn; when one faces the front, the other always faces toward the side. If you remain unaware of the full scope of the situation, you might even conclude that the fish must be instantaneously communicating with one another, but this is clearly not the case.
This, says Bohm, is precisely what is going on between the subatomic particles in Aspect’s experiment. According to Bohm, the apparent faster-than-light connection between subatomic particles is really telling us that there is a deeper level of reality we are not privy to, a more complex dimension beyond our own that is analogous to the aquarium. And, he adds, we view objects such as subatomic particles as separate from one another because we are seeing only a portion of their reality. Such particles are not separate “parts”, but facets of a deeper and more underlying unity that is ultimately as holographic and indivisible as the previously mentioned rose. And since everything in physical reality is comprised of these “eidolons”, the universe is itself a projection, a hologram.
In addition to its phantomlike nature, such a universe would possess other rather startling features. If the apparent separateness of subatomic particles is illusory, it means that at a deeper level of reality all things in the universe are infinitely interconnected.The electrons in a carbon atom in the human brain are connected to the subatomic particles that comprise every salmon that swims, every heart that beats, and every star that shimmers in the sky. Everything interpenetrates everything, and although human nature may seek to categorize and pigeonhole and subdivide, the various phenomena of the universe, all apportionments are of necessity artificial and all of nature is ultimately a seamless web.
In a holographic universe, even time and space could no longer be viewed as fundamentals. Because concepts such as location break down in a universe in which nothing is truly separate from anything else, time and three-dimensional space, like the images of the fish on the TV monitors, would also have to be viewed as projections of this deeper order. At its deeper level reality is a sort of superhologram in which the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. This suggests that given the proper tools it might even be possible to someday reach into the superholographic level of reality and pluck out scenes from the long-forgotten past.
What else the superhologram contains is an open-ended question. Allowing, for the sake of argument, that the superhologram is the matrix that has given birth to everything in our universe, at the very least it contains every subatomic particle that has been or will be – every configuration of matter and energy that is possible, from snowflakes to quasars, from blue whales to gamma rays. It must be seen as a sort of cosmic storehouse of “All That Is.”
Although Bohm concedes that we have no way of knowing what else might lie hidden in the superhologram, he does venture to say that we have no reason to assume it does not contain more. Or as he puts it, perhaps the superholographic level of reality is a “mere stage” beyond which lies “an infinity of further development”.


Bohm is not the only researcher who has found evidence that the universe is a hologram. Working independently in the field of brain research, Standford neurophysiologist Karl Pribram has also become persuaded of the holographic nature of reality. Pribram was drawn to the holographic model by the puzzle of how and where memories are stored in the brain. For decades numerous studies have shown that rather than being confined to a specific location, memories are dispersed throughout the brain.
In a series of landmark experiments in the 1920s, brain scientist Karl Lashley found that no matter what portion of a rat’s brain he removed he was unable to eradicate its memory of how to perform complex tasks it had learned prior to surgery. The only problem was that no one was able to come up with a mechanism that might explain this curious “whole in every part” nature of memory storage.
Then in the 1960s Pribram encountered the concept of holography and realized he had found the explanation brain scientists had been looking for. Pribram believes memories are encoded not in neurons, or small groupings of neurons, but in patterns of nerve impulses that crisscross the entire brain in the same way that patterns of laser light interference crisscross the entire area of a piece of film containing a holographic image. In other words, Pribram believes the brain is itself a hologram.
Pribram’s theory also explains how the human brain can store so many memories in so little space. It has been estimated that the human brain has the capacity to memorize something on the order of 10 billion bits of information during the average human lifetime (or roughly the same amount of information contained in five sets of the Encyclopaedia Britannica).
Similarly, it has been discovered that in addition to their other capabilities, holograms possess an astounding capacity for information storage–simply by changing the angle at which the two lasers strike a piece of photographic film, it is possible to record many different images on the same surface. It has been demonstrated that one cubic centimeter of film can hold as many as 10 billion bits of information.
Our uncanny ability to quickly retrieve whatever information we need from the enormous store of our memories becomes more understandable if the brain functions according to holographic principles. If a friend asks you to tell him what comes to mind when he says the word “zebra”, you do not have to clumsily sort back through some gigantic and cerebral alphabetic file to arrive at an answer. Instead, associations like “striped”, “horselike”, and “animal native to Africa” all pop into your head instantly. Indeed, one of the most amazing things about the human thinking process is that every piece of information seems instantly cross- correlated with every other piece of information–another feature intrinsic to the hologram. Because every portion of a hologram is infinitely interconnected with every other portion, it is perhaps nature’s supreme example of a cross-correlated system.
The storage of memory is not the only neurophysiological puzzle that becomes more tractable in light of Pribram’s holographic model of the brain. Another is how the brain is able to translate the avalanche of frequencies it receives via the senses (light frequencies, sound frequencies, and so on) into the concrete world of our perceptions.
Encoding and decoding frequencies is precisely what a hologram does best. Just as a hologram functions as a sort of lens, a translating device able to convert an apparently meaningless blur of frequencies into a coherent image, Pribram believes the brain also comprises a lens and uses holographic principles to mathematically convert the frequencies it receives through the senses into the inner world of our perceptions.
An impressive body of evidence suggests that the brain uses holographic principles to perform its operations. Pribram’s theory, in fact, has gained increasing support among neurophysiologists.


Argentinian-Italian researcher Hugo Zucarelli recently extended the holographic model into the world of acoustic phenomena. Puzzled by the fact that humans can locate the source of sounds without moving their heads, even if they only possess hearing in one ear, Zucarelli discovered that holographic principles can explain this ability. Zucarelli has also developed the technology of holophonic sound, a recording technique able to reproduce acoustic situations with an almost uncanny realism.
Pribram’s belief that our brains mathematically construct “hard” reality by relying on input from a frequency domain has also received a good deal of experimental support. It has been found that each of our senses is sensitive to a much broader range of frequencies than was previously suspected. Researchers have discovered, for instance, that our visual systems are sensitive to sound frequencies, that our sense of smellisin part dependent on what are now called “osmic frequencies”, and that even the cells in our bodies are sensitive to a broad range of frequencies. Such findings suggest that it is only in the holographic domain of consciousness that such frequencies are sorted out and divided up into conventional perceptions.

But the most mind-boggling aspect of Pribram’s holographic model of the brain is what happens when it is put together with Bohm’s theory. For if the concreteness of the world is but a secondary reality and what is “there” is actually a holographic blur of frequencies, and if the brain is also a hologram and only selects some of the frequencies out of this blur and mathematically transforms them into sensory perceptions, what becomes of objective reality? Put quite simply, it ceases to exist. As the religions of the East have long upheld, the material world is Maya, an illusion, and although we may think we are physical beings moving through a physical world, this too is an illusion.
We are really “receivers” floating through a kaleidoscopic sea of frequency, and what we extract from this sea and transmogrify into physical reality is but one channel from many extracted out of the superhologram.


This striking new picture of reality, the synthesis of Bohm and Pribram’s views, has come to be called the-holographic paradigm, and although many scientists have greeted it with skepticism, it has galvanized others. A small but growing group of researchers believe it may be the most accurate model of reality science has arrived at thus far. More than that, some believe it may solve some mysteries that have never before been explainable by science and even establish the paranormal as a part of nature. Numerous researchers, including Bohm and Pribram, have noted that many para-psychological phenomena become much more understandable in terms of the holographic paradigm.
In a universe in which individual brains are actually indivisible portions of the greater hologram and everything is infinitely interconnected, telepathy may merely be the accessing of the holographic level.
It is obviously much easier to understand how information can travel from the mind of individual ‘A’ to that of individual ‘B’ at a far distance point and helps to understand a number of unsolvedpuzzles in psychology.
In particular, Stanislav Grof feels the holographic paradigm offers a model for understanding many of the baffling phenomena experienced by individuals during altered states of consciousness. In the 1950s, while conducting research into the beliefs of LSD as a psychotherapeutic tool, Grof had one female patient who suddenly became convinced she had assumed the identity of a female of a species of prehistoric reptile. During the course of her hallucination, she not only gave a richly detailed description of what it felt like to be encapsuled in such a form, but noted that the portion of the male of the species’s anatomy was a patch of colored scales on the side of its head. What was startling to Grof was that although the woman had no prior knowledge about such things, a conversation with a zoologist later confirmed that in certain species of reptiles colored areas on the head do indeed play an important role as triggers of sexual arousal. The woman’s experience was not unique. During the course of his research, Grof encountered examples of patients regressing and identifying with virtually every species on the evolutionary tree (research findings which helped influence the man-into-ape scene in the movie Altered States). Moreover, he found that such experiences frequently contained obscure zoological details which turned out to be accurate.
Regressions into the animal kingdom were not the only puzzling psychological phenomena Grof encountered. He also had patients who appeared to tap into some sort of collective or racial unconscious. Individuals with little or no education suddenly gave detailed descriptions of Zoroastrian funerary practices and scenes from Hindu mythology. In other categories of experience, individuals gave persuasive accounts of out-of-body journeys, of precognitive glimpses of the future, of regressions into apparent past-life incarnations.
In later research, Grof found the same range of phenomena manifested in therapy sessions which did not involve the use of drugs. Because the common element in such experiences appeared to be the transcending of an individual’s consciousness beyond the usual boundaries of ego and/or limitations of space and time, Grof called such manifestations “transpersonal experiences”, and in the late '60s he helped found a branch of psychology called “transpersonal psychology” devoted entirely to their study.
Although Grof’s newly founded Association of Transpersonal Psychology garnered a rapidly growing group of like-minded professionals and has become a respected branch of psychology, for years neither Grof or any of his colleagues were able to offer a mechanism for explaining the bizarre psychological phenomena they were witnessing. But that has changed with the advent of the holographic paradigm.
As Grof recently noted, if the mind is actually part of a continuum, a labyrinth that is connected not only to every other mind that exists or has existed, but to every atom, organism, and region in the vastness of space and time itself, the fact that it is able to occasionally make forays into the labyrinth and have transpersonal experiences no longer seems so strange.


The holographic paradigm also has implications for so-called hard sciences like biology. Keith Floyd, a psychologist at Virginia Intermont College, has pointed out that if the concreteness of reality is but a holographic illusion, it would no longer be true to say the brain produces consciousness. Rather, it is consciousness that creates the appearance of the brain – as well as the body and everything else around us we interpret as physical.
Such a turnabout in the way we view biological structures has caused researchers to point out that medicine and our understanding of the healing process could also be transformed by the holographic paradigm. If the apparent physical structure of the body is but a holographic projection of consciousness, it becomes clear that each of us is much more responsible for our health than current medical wisdom allows. What we now view as miraculous remissions of disease may actually be due to changes in consciousness which in turn effect changes in the hologram of the body.
Similarly, controversial new healing techniques such as visualization may work so well because, in the holographic domain of thought, images are ultimately as real as “reality”.


Even visions and experiences involving “non-ordinary” reality become explainable under the holographic paradigm. In his book “Gifts of Unknown Things,” biologist Lyall Watson describes his encounter with an Indonesian shaman woman who, by performing a ritual dance, was able to make an entire grove of trees instantly vanish into thin air. Watson relates that as he and another astonished onlooker continued to watch the woman, she caused the trees to reappear, then “click” off again and on again several times in succession.
Although current scientific understanding is incapable of explaining such events, experiences like this become more tenable if “hard” reality is only a holographic projection. Perhaps we agree on what is “there” or “not there” because what we call consensus reality is formulated and ratified at the level of the human unconscious at which all minds are infinitely interconnected. If this is true, it is the most profound implication of the holographic paradigm of all, for it means that experiences such as Watson’s are not commonplace only because we have not programmed our minds with the beliefs that would make them so. In a holographic universe there are no limits to the extent to which we can alter the fabric of reality.

What we perceive as reality is only a canvas waiting for us to draw upon it any picture we want. Anything is possible, from bending spoons with the power of the mind to the phantasmagoric events experienced by Castaneda during his encounters with the Yaqui brujo don Juan, for magic is our birthright, no more or less miraculous than our ability to compute the reality we want when we are in our dreams.
Indeed, even our most fundamental notions about reality become suspect, for in a holographic universe, as Pribram has pointed out, even random events would have to be seen as based on holographic principles and therefore determined. Synchronicities or meaningful coincidences suddenly makes sense, and everything in reality would have to be seen as a metaphor, for even the most haphazard events would express some underlying symmetry.

Whether Bohm and Pribram’s holographic paradigm becomes accepted in science or dies an ignoble death remains to be seen, but it is safe to say that it has already had an influence on the thinking of many scientists. And even if it is found that the holographic model does not provide the best explanation for the instantaneous communications that seem to be passing back and forth between subatomic particles, at the very least, as noted by Basil Hiley, a physicist at Birbeck College in London, Aspect’s findings “indicate that we must be prepared to consider radically new views of reality”.

Where did you get that article Johan? It was a fascinating read, thanks for posting it. I found the assertion “the mind creates the brain” quite striking. This seems to take Plato’s allegory of the cave one, if not several steps further. Theoretically (if this proposition is true) humans are capable of freeing themselves from the restrictions of time and the “physical” world. They would simply be experiencing everything that was, or will ever be experienced. I look forward to exploring this further. For now its just one more thing to confuse the hell out of me. :wink:

The information is all over the place. Search for “holistic fields”, “quantum fields”, “holographic brain”, “Transpersonal Psychology”, “holographic universe”, ETC. Get some books.

As I said earlier; no one is causing the other. The holistic universe is monistic. It’s easy to use old models to explain new. For me this is not abstract. I have personal experiences that verify that the substance have the character of what is described above, and I think all comes down to this.

Johan