Logics - how far can it lead?

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Logics - how far can it lead?

Postby inward » Mon Jan 13, 2003 3:15 pm

Logics consists of some sets of rules, connections.. relationships between different statements, or whatever you want to call it. Statements are abstract notions of what there is, throwing a cloud of dust over their nature. So logics only tells us how to deal with these.. statements, what is true and what is false, in terms of other statements. Logics can be applied to any statement, situation.

On the other hand, life's brightest colours are those involving love (especially love of a person, or God). Unlike logics, love has a selective nature. One cannot love two persons in the same way. It's based on simillarities between the nature of the "lover" and the "loved one", at certain levels. Therefor, love has a deeper insight into the nature of things.

So here my question comes. How much can we apply logics in our life, where should we start using our intuition instead?
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Postby Pax Vitae » Mon Jan 13, 2003 4:58 pm

On the other hand, life's brightest colours are those involving love (especially love of a person, or God). Unlike logics, love has a selective nature. One cannot love two persons in the same way. It's based on simillarities between the nature of the "lover" and the "loved one", at certain levels. Therefor, love has a deeper insight into the nature of things.


I don’t think love in itself has a deeper insight, but is a higher order of abstraction built on unseen logic. Meaning it’s a combination of a multitude of logical statements being met that allows us to love. These statements are mixed, some conscious and others sub-conscious. I see it as a checklist of things the must be met before I can love somebody. Some items on the list are not quite what would be called logic (Yes/No), but a little fuzzy: I like Blue or Green eyes, but not Brown. So if you where to write this logically it could be stated:

I_Love = True; IF (Eyes = Blue OR Green BUT NOT Brown)

But the fact of Blue eyes on its own is not enough to love somebody. Each logic statement has a weight. Meaning:

Blue Eyes = 10 points
Green Eyes = 10 points
Brown Eyes = -10 points
Blond Hair = 20 points
Dark Hair = 25 points
Red Hair = -10 points
Personality = 40 points
Aesthetic Beauty = 80 points

So in the example if I meant two Ladies and one who had Red Hair, Brown Eyes and was Aesthetically Beautiful she would score, (-10 + -10 + 80) 60 points. While the other Lady had Dark Hair, Blue Eyes and Personality she would score (25 + 10 + 40) 75 points. So it would be the second of these two Ladies that I would be more interested in, but I would still like the first as she also got a high score. Please do not take this as me objectifying women, as the standard is easily reversed. We all make these types of judgements so quickly that we don’t even know we are doing it. It’s only not as obvious, as the way I have portrayed it here. Ever hear the expression, “It’s first impressions that matter.”

So here my question comes. How much can we apply logics in our life, where should we start using our intuition instead?


I would say the same applies to Intuition. It’s higher order of abstraction logic, the final Yes/No to the combination of all the many unseen logic statements.

But to answer your question directly, I would say yes, we should trust our intuition in most of our daily life. Though I would not use it on its own for making any big decisions, but it would have a very strong influence on the final outcome.

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Postby Magius » Mon Jan 13, 2003 10:03 pm

Logics - how far can it lead? We have yet to see...it is premature to say that we can know how far it leads, since in order to know that, we must know where exactly its limit is. But Logic has not taken us to any final definite unchangeable and undisputed limits.
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Postby Skeptic » Tue Jan 14, 2003 12:59 am

Logic. How far can it lead?


I was wondering when you would bring this up. I sincerely believe that logic can bring us to complete objectivity, theoretically that is. There are a couple of problems, however. First of all, in order to completely deduce any given "questionable" subject, you need to have every aspect of that subject unveiled and available for referencing. That is an impossibility. We just can't know everything about any given subject. It is an unsurpassible limitation. Secondly, even if we did have every given aspect of such a subject, our brains, even in their prime form, do not have the ability to comprehend every single factor involved. This leads us to your next question.

h2o wrote:How much can we apply logics in our life, where should we start using our intuition instead?


How much? I say as much as possible. Why satisfy yourself with anything less? We should use logic to the extent that we are able, never any less. I also believe that we should always keep an open mind. Seeing as there is always room for mistake in reference to the use of intuition, an open mind is very necessary. This means that we should be more than willing to change our minds about any given subject when new information is made available. Always strive for the truth.
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Postby Brad » Tue Jan 14, 2003 1:11 am

Logic doesn't lead anywhere. It's a tool to hope us cope. Intuition is much the same thing and they are intertwined.
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Postby inward » Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:04 am

I don't have much time right now to answer, so I'll only answer Pax.
Pax, that which you described is 'like'. Not 'love'. You like blue eyes, you can't love blue eyes. That kind of love I was reffering to.
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Postby inward » Tue Jan 14, 2003 3:07 pm

Ok, let's see.

Skeptic wrote:Why satisfy with anything less?

This is what I'm trying to say, that logics is not the best life can offer. As far as I can tell, logics is the result of observation, even of intuition of how stuff is going on. It involves 'conscious thinking'.

Take, for instance, a melody. By listening to it's first n notes, you can guess, sometimes with incredible precision, how high and how long the next note is. Intuition. That impulse that precedes thought. It's a higher form of logics, a subconscious one, I guess; it doesn't involve conscious thinking. I guess that's why it's better.
Last edited by inward on Tue Jan 14, 2003 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pax Vitae » Tue Jan 14, 2003 3:29 pm

h2o wrote:Pax, that which you described is 'like'. Not 'love'.


Add up enough Likes and you'll Love! :wink:
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Postby Skeptic » Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:22 pm

As a determinist, I completely agree with Pax in that feelings such as Love can all be logically deduced down to very complex pleasure / pain equations. Although, there is much more to it than eye color, hair color, facial structure, as well as other superficial characteristics, it is still based on a mixture of reactions to simple attributes of the object that you are having a feeling for. Obviously we don't go around consciously computing this kind of jargon everytime we begin to have a feeling for an object. It is more of a subconscious effort when it comes to feelings which can often be a major problem in emotional based rationale.

Take the example of going shopping for shoes. I went shopping a few weeks ago and found the most wonderful pair of black Steve Madden tennis shoes. I did not consciously contemplate the "why" of my feelings toward the shoes. I just knew that I liked them. I bought them, took them home, wore them around the house. It was then that I realized that they really weren't that comfortable, they didn't go with any of my clothing, and they were overly expensive for such an impractical pair of shoes. I returned them, then went searching for something much more practical, comfortable, and something that would go with all of my clothes.

The above is an example of an illogical decision based on an undependable emotion. I bought the shoes based on the illogical intuition of feelings. If I had spent a little more time in research / rational decisioning I might have saved myself the hassle of having to repeat my search for shoes. I ended buying a pair of Merrill brown suede boots / clogs. They are just as appealing as the first pair but they also fulfill all the needs that I didn't think about in my original purchase. My point is to prove that feelings can be a poor assessment of value in an object. Using logic to it's fullest extent in a value assessment can be a much more rewarding scenario.

Think about how that scenario applies to love and relationships. Many of us base our assessments of a partner in an illogical /irrational way. We base it on an improper assessment called "love". We get married to the person that we are in love with. Suddenly we realize that shoe doesn't fit, so to speak. Personalities clash, dark sides come out, bad habits are exposed, and overall, it just doesn't work. Why is this? . . . because logic and rational decision making never took place. Does this mean that you don't love that person? Of course not but love is not the only factor.

Logic is very important in everything that we do. Yes there is alot of rationalization that goes on behind the scenes in the subconscious but those rationalizations are not always dependable. Our subconscious reactions, feelings, beliefs are all wonderful ways to make an inference but we should not trust them whole heartedly. If you feel that you love someone, then draw out your reasoning into a conscious logical analysis. This way you can be completely sure that your desire for a relationship is a rational decision. This of course does not only apply to love and relationships, but also to religious beliefs, ethical decisions, judgment calls, and ways to live your life. If you want to make the best decisions, it's only logical that you use logic!
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Postby Kajun » Thu Feb 06, 2003 5:34 pm

I agree with Pax Vitae. It's all just an accumulation of nervous firings based on simple organic logic gates. Love is no more than what we're given, which is chemicals. Is logic a rationalisation rather than a defining characteristic of the fabric of existence? Probably, but only in the sense of what we understand logic to be - not just P&Q etc. but simple logical things like on/off, yes/no. All this may just be representative for a deeper underlying logic that is yet unknown.

Indeed, can there be a third logical state which isn't representable by two sound logical arguments based on two logical states? Yes, No... Maybe?
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