Moderator: Only_Humean
"I would rather live with the pain of truth than to live with the pain of lies."
Ignorance leads to non-existence. What is the point of life if you wish not to know anything?
The optimist that I am, I can find no pain in truth. For me, I think I would change it around to, "I would rather live with the joy of truth than the joy of ignorance." Beautiful sentence though. I will have to remember that one.
I find that all suffering roots in ignorance itself.
Upon the realization of someone's suffering, you are more apt to lend a helping hand. Or in the case that you are the source of the suffering, you are more apt to stop causing the suffering. Enlightment brings about bliss for everyone.
So I would say that "Enlightment is the greatest bliss." Would you agree?
Knowledge is more tempting for me not because of knowledge, but because of the act of thinking.
Too many people don't like to think because they realize bad things, what they don't think about is whether the bad things are true or not.
“I would rather live with the pain of truth than to live with the pain of lies."
But what is true today is shown to be untrue tomorrow and vice versa.
Ignorance leads to non-existence. What is the point of life if you wish not to know anything?
The optimist that I am, I can find no pain in truth.
"Ignorance is bliss." Well, yeah, if you are the ignorant one. The one whose suffering is being ignored will have a different perspective.
"Enlightment is the greatest bliss."
if they know nothing of the outside
However, once one is shown the outside (reason) if they are to choose to go back into the cave (ignorance), they are to deny their humanity
It may be more tempting to choose ignorance rather than face some harsh truths
No pain in truth? To help you realize my point, I want to ask you . . .
My point being that the truth hurts!
You could think about silly things all day. We are always thinking, right?
Funny enough is the fact that knowing the ‘bad things’ is addictive. You want to know more and more… in some sort of self-destructiveness.
Camus said once ‘There exists an obvious fact that seems utterly moral; namely, that a man is always a prey to his truths. Once he has admitted them, he cannot free himself from them’
so, but you can only choose such thing when is too late to go back to the cave anyway.
Animals don’t know anything apart from instinct… and they exist. But if you mean the absence of knowledge of something by someone, than I agree. Like… If I wasn’t typing in this forum, you would never know I existed, so, for you I was non-existent. But I was existent before, you just didn’t know me.
So you see, I don't think anything I think about is as you said 'silly'
I don't think it is self-destructive.
Can you elaborate on this point, I'm not sure what you mean here
Animals don't know anything apart from instinct, how can you be so certain?
What I meant with ignorance leading to non-existence is that if you favour ignorance, then you have no ambition to learn anything about life, which means you will do nothing for life.
But there is an ultimate truth that says that all of mankind is playing the same game and that game will end the same for everyone. See what I mean? Suffering is equal in the eyes of death.
"You should not grieve for what is unavoidable."
But if it hurts and you inflict it in yourself, that’s self-destructive, isn’t it?
I take pleasure from learning, I find it addictive too. I want to find out more and more, even tho I know I will never know everything having only 1 life to leave, so I run against time almost. Yet, I can’t say I am happier person now than I was on my teens. I brought me sadness and responsibility… and as consequence, guiltiness. Is a love and hate thing, I like it, yet can’t say it makes me happier, that’s why I find it self-destructive.
I don’t think science proved they are able to question past, future and present. They also can’t question their existence…Can a lion choose to be vegetarian because he empathic to the prey’s pain?
But we know, by science, that the majority of animals don’t have the same ability to think as we do.
yes there are those who mutilate themselves, those who cut themselves because of depression or some kind of a mental disorder
don't we learn to enjoy through pain? I know when I was young I feared roller-coaster like the plague, but once I pushed my suffering far enough and got on one (I cried on one of them - I was young) and than another, and another - I came to love being on roller-coasters.
When we are young we are sometimes spanked or smacked because we don't listen. The point is suffering, but it's only the means, the end is for us to learn not to do something dangerous
Where would action movies, martial arts, wrestling be if suffering and pain were self-destructive?
what I think the allegory is trying to say is that people don't want to know the truth because of the pain they must go through. To relate that to life, all people know they would like others to be honest with them, but they don't want to hear things like "I think you shouldn't use the eye shadow" or "buddy, the way you talk just doesn't suit you according to me". Most people would rather not know that. I would (I don't wear eye shadow, but I hope everyone gets my point).
Furthermore, people find it hard to be honest because it causes a lot of uncomfortable situations...they are not willing to be honest despite the fact that they know they should, because of the pain associated with it
So what I am trying to say is, that I don't agree that when you have a choice between ignorance or not it is too late. I think it is never to late. There is always something that can be done to amend your mind.
I think animals have reason, for one needs to reason the things around them in order to survive. Sure, it may not be the same reason as we humans do, but draw me the line between reasoning for animals and the reasoning for humans
So even if you can prove me wrong, you have a far way to go to prove yourself right, which is the argument from ignorance.
yes there are those who mutilate themselves, those who cut themselves because of depression or some kind of a mental disorder
So for you the only way of self-destruction is physically?
But if it hurts and you inflict it in yourself, that’s self-destructive, isn’t it?
Knowing people who self-destruct (physically) allows me to say that is the same process… you hurt yourself, with time you like the pain, you hurt yourself more for pleasure. If you do study psychology as you said, you might know that it is not a silly 'personality disorder' as doctors like to call it.
I am just trying to prove the point that you can self-destruct mentally.
Being smacked is more of a psychological suffering than really physical. You trust you parents and they are angry with you, you feel guilty, so the main point of this soft of punishment is to make you suffer psychologically.
Yes, but that is not the whole picture once again. No one will argue that we can't be self-destructive, but I am trying to show you that you are generalizing pain and self-destructiveness to an illogical degree.So if someone can do it to you, you can also do it to yourself.
Where is the pleasure in wrestling? The pleasure is pain… so, if you do it yourself, if you put yourself in a situation where you will certainly get hurt, it is self-destruction, self-harm, self-punishment… call whatever you want. It is still self-inflicted harm.
I agree with what you said before this point. But don’t you think that those people who are still in the cave might just find this person insane? Do you think is possible that they just don’t think there is an outside at all?
If you prove to me that animals do not have language, does that mean they can't think?
Did I say that? No. I said they don’t have the ABILITY to think like we do. I didn’t say the DON’T think, and I didn’t say the DON’T have a language of their own. So you should stop distorting the words I say.
Animals don’t know anything apart from instinct…
You also didn’t reply you my question ‘Can a lion choose to be vegetarian because he empathic to the prey’s pain?’. If you are still in your senses you will have to agree that no, a lion won’t choose to be a vegetarian because he is empathic to his food’s pain. Can we be empathic to other beings pain? Yes we can,… as far as I know.
That’s what I’ve been trying to say. They don’t have the ability to think like we do…doesn’t mean they don’t think or have a reason of their own.
Animals are irrational and they act irrationally. Humans are supposed to be rational… I guess you can draw a line there, maybe
But I never argued that they think like we do. I said that I believe they do think, just not like we do. But I also said that I am open to the idea that they do think like us, but they just can't express it like we do. But I will try to show you anyway, I once read a book based on a true story (a film was made out of it as well) about these two dogs. I don't remember the whole story, for I read it as a kid, but the point is that at the end of the movie one of the dogs dies and gets barried in the back of the farm where the dogs reside. Red ferns begin to grow over the grave of this barried dog. Anyway, the other dog would not eat or listen to the owner, it would simply lie down on top of the soil over the grave until it died as well. This is irrational, as you believe all animals are and I argued against in the previous paragraphs. But this is irrationality to the point of us understanding a higher consciousness within the dog, do you not agree? Would you not say that the dog was sad? If animals no nothing apart from instinct then why be sad? Secondly, one of my professors in university told the class about his cat. It was a vicious cat that attacked all other cats. One day my prof bought a new mirror and brought it in the house. Before putting it up he left in against a wall while he went to get a hammer and nail. He came back to find his cat attacking the mirror. From that day on (he hung the mirror two inches off the ground) the cat would go upto the mirror and admire itself. It learned that it was a reflection of itself.But you also haven’t showed me anything that might deny the fact that animals have got the same ability to think as we do
Wouldn’t animals be fighting for the worlds leadership if they could?
Wouldn’t animals be gathering together to for an army against humans because we are destroying nature?
Give me something that show that science might be wrong… that animals have the same ability as we do, that they can question past, present and future
and even debate about existence and religion. I will definitely change my mind or look more into my view if you do show me something, an example... anything.
To reply to your question, I think you question to be irrelevant. I don't think a lion stops to think about the pain of his prey the same way you don't think about a cow being slaughtered when you eat beef.
Clementine, it appears to me that you are distorting your own words, I continue only to try to unravel what it is you are trying to say to me.
You see, you need to be more clear with what YOU actually think, what YOUR opinion is, and most importantly; stick with it - or drop it - but don't argue both ways, people may come to see you as a hypocrit or they may feel insulted as though you are not paying attention to the discussion.
Nothing I have posted could makes me a hypocrite, as the word means a dissimulation of one’s character of belief, one who assumes a false appearance, who feigns he is not what he is, to feel or believe in something they don’t actually feel or believe, someone with false pretender to virtue or piety.
After you suggested I could be seen as a hypocrite, I stopped reading your post. There is no reason why we try together to look for an answer while you see me as this kind of person.
John Stuart Mill had observed that "no instructed person" would consent to becoming an ignoramus even if he were persuaded that as an ignoramus he would be happier than he presently is.
Also, Plato said that a person who had found knowledge would rather be the slave of the poorest master than be ignorant.
Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]