Do we pick who we love?

Hmmm, I have a feeling that this post isn’t gonna solve anything, been mulling over it now for too long not to post though, so here goes my first foray into an attack on determinism. Deep breath :wink:

The trouble with determinism, and here I take it to be that you have a mapped future in front of you, is that it’s confused the past with the future. Man can take any decision he wants, at any point in time, to do anything that he is, at the time, physically able to do. So I could right now stop writing this, but I’ve decided not to. We are ultimatly so free that any one of us could do whatever we want whenever we want to (this is very Sartrean btw, but there are quite a few objections to this extreme freedom, but I think they miss the point of it). I’m not saying we will, but we do have the choice. Right now I could walk out on my degree, move country and get a job as a bartender, should I desire to do so. Or I could go downstairs and murder my housemates (hope they don’t read this! :wink:) Determinism states that whatever I do, I could not have done otherwise, I was always going to do what I have done, I will always do what I will do. Now see, they’re on what seems to be very strong ground here. Take the example that I’m going to go downstairs, get my cigarettes and have a fag in a minute. Now a determinist would argue that all the events in my life have determined that i will do this, from the fact that I’m addicted to nicotene, to the fact that I have cigarettes downstairs, to the fact that I was born in a certain place and time so that it is time of day to have a cigarette, to the mental process that are driving me right now which say I want a cigarette. Now on the other hand, if I stubbornly refused to have one in order to prove the determinist wrong, he would say that that was predetermined too, it was always going to happen because I was going to try and prove the determinist wrong, but all I’m doing is proving him right! But you see therein lies the paradox of determinism, it is infallable. Whatever I do it will be as they predict, precisly because built in to the definition of determinism is it’s own facticity. It’s no better than extreme skeptisim, you can’t disprove it.

I think the ultimate mistake of the determinist is looking at the past, which cannot be changed and then looking to the future and saying it is similar to the past. It is not, precisily because there are all the possibilities stretching in the future before us, but there is only one behind us. There are plenty of unrealised possibilities behind us. That is why I say it is impossible to prove which is wrong or right. A determinist can (quite rightly) say that there is only one future possibility that we can take. They are right because there is only one possible future we are gonna live, the one we end up living, but who are they to say it is “determined”, there is no evidence either way, precisily because we can only ever choose one path. Whether we actually had a choice of another path is impossible to show, but is also impossible to show that we didn’t.

What I will concede is that we have certain predispositions, if offered a choice of identical goods people tend to go for the one on the right (This is from a paper by Stich and Nichols on the simulation theory of mind, not sure of it’s title). I will tend to choose Tea as a drink when offered one, or lager in a bar (student :slight_smile:). But as to whether this was predetermined, or whether the times I choose differently were also, a determinist cannot prove because his argument is circular.

That about wraps it up, what I hope I’ve proved is that while I can’t disprove determinism, I can’t prove it either. Much like, while I can’t prove this is “reality”, I can’t prove that it’s not.

ok by ‘freedom’ I mean ability. so when i said that genes have the freedon to make choises, i meant ability. However, whatever choices are made by genes, they are still subject to predetermination. So our genes do not have true ‘freedom’ because they can (possibly) be predetermined. But what I was saying is that we, our conscious mind, our ‘macro’ selves cannot make decisions because we don’t have the ability to do so. Only our genes do, only our micro selves. The reason for all behavior could be found at the molecular level (perhaps we need to go even further to the atomic, subatomic levels of our genes and maybe beyond. Which I think one day we will. Ok ok I’m getting a little ahead of myself here)
Are we free? Who knows?!
Does it matter? Myself, I think it does (I mean, how can you not feel something personal about a topic like that), but essentially no cause you can’t prove or disprove determinism.

I donno, I’ve never met my significant other :wink:
Seriously though, I think you would know because you would feel happy/good when you are together. And even though you argue, and disagree you still want to be with her (him, …whoever)
And not just for a week, or month or year… but always. Other people come and go, and you both change, but you still want to be together. But you can you tell (be certain that that’s the case) from the first time you meet a person? Or hell, at any point in your relationship? Like I said, I really wouldn’t know…
On one of the other posts I think you put it nicely when you said: “[you] want to make that person feel good”… because that makes you happy.

Magius, you also wrote this on another thread: “In the midst of confusion there will be one person who you need to find and they alone can make everything clear…”
Maybe the person wouldn’t necessary make things clear for you, but instead you would find a person you want to face the confusion with… together you create your own bubble of understanding from which you can confront life.

Blah… I really don’t know what I’m talking about… :frowning::unamused:

In response to the topic question:

Love is an emotional response to positive values. That is, if you value something, and an event or action occurs that supports or promotes that value, you feel love to some extent.

For example, I value $50. If I were to suddenly obtain $50 through work or some other means of earning money, I would feel a sense of love. There are obviously different degrees of love (such as like, affection, romance, and love).

Hatred is the opposite - that is, a negative response to values. Again, there are varying degrees of this emotion, just like all emotions.

So far I haven’t really answered your question, but I’m setting up this next part.

Indirectly we choose who we love, because we choose our values. The ultimate positive response towards the values, characteristics and consciousness of another person is what most would call romantic affection. We choose what we admire in life and what we dislike. Our emotions respond accordingly. I enjoy sports and strategy games because I value the intellectual and physical components that are required to be successful at both. Other pleasures, such as taste, smell and similar senses are usually not determined by anyone. These aren’t exactly values either. They’re simply a sensational response to something pleasing your nerve stimulus. Save sex and other physical contact, people cannot stimulate your nerves. So it should be clear that love of another is something that our minds respond to, not our bodies. In this sense, if you believe that we choose our values (i.e. free will) it’s clearly a decision when we love.

Mack,
in the abstraction and generality with which you made the former part of your post (the part I didn’t paste here) I must concede my compliance and agreement. But I think you haven’t delved deep enough into life examples to really aspire readers to come to a new understanding of love. You say there are different degrees of love, ie. like, but it appears slightly that you don’t seem to believe in an all powerful demarcated love that is different from all other lower forms of it. That is what this thread is about. So tell us more about the highest level of love that you believe, or don’t believe in. Please and thank you with a cherry on top. :smiley:

Mark stated:

Do we? All of them? Are the good values you see in women one’s you have rationally decided to adopt, or did you like certain women and only after much time and thought did you realize what it is that you liked about them and rationalized for yourself why it is good for you to like those values?

Mark stated:

Can you tell me more about what you mean by ‘ultimate positive response’?

Mark stated:

Same as with the other example, did you choose to like the things you like and the people you like, or did you first like them and only later, did you actually rationalize your feelings for yourself?

Mark stated:

Do they? Or do we respond to our emotions?
So would you agree with another concept recently debated about, that you can make yourself love someone? I’m not sure what makes you jealous, but imagine a situation in which you become jealous and go back to the first time it happened to you. The first time you got jealous, did you get jealous because you previously decided for yourself about a situation you had not yet experience, and that you would become jealous if it should ever happen?

Mark stated:

Alright, but can they stimulate your curiousity, your imagination, your interest, your anger, your hate, your love, etc?

Mark stated:

Well said but I am not convinced. I agree with you, just not your explanation for it. Why is it so clear? Ever tried to play devils advocate with the idea and try to explain love using evolution?

Mark stated:

Hmm…I’m glad you stated it, for your whole conception right from the start is based on free will. Which is where the topic goes off on a tangent and holes begin to appear in the concept of love. I now need to ask you for you view on free will and why you think it exists as opposed to determinism…

What’s your take?

First, my name’s Mack, not Mark. But that’s okay.

Secondly, you’re asking me to lay out practically my entire philosophical base. That’s not something I can do on a message board. I will do my best to answer your questions and touch briefly on the subjects you mentioned.

I’ll go question by question.

In regards to choosing values: Sexual attraction is not something we choose (or at least I don’t think we do). Anything that gives us sensual pleasure, such as touch, sight, taste, we do not choose. It’s part of our nature. Just as we can’t control our natural hair color, we cannot control what sensations give us pleasure.

Other qualities about sexual attraction, such as personality, are decisions we all make. The traits of another’s consciousness that you admire are values you choose. You are not born with the liking of funny people. You have experienced laughter in your laugh and enjoy it. Now you value another that can make you laugh and feel enjoyment. You’re not born with a trait to value another person that can make you laugh.

Romantic affection is the highest form of positive response towards the values and sensations you find in another person. It’s that single entity that you find so many things that you value that you feel the highest form of love. I’ll use the generic example: smart, sense of humor, kind, giving, forgiving, etc… You feel love for someone who has these traits because you value these traits. It’s not the other way around. Love is an emotion - an effect, not a cause. Romantic love combines the attraction of physical sensations and values of another person. In order for me to love someone, I must be attracted to (value) them phsycially, intellectually and spiritually (by spirit I mean all the little things that make an entity unique). Basically, you just find so many things in another person that value and enjoy that your emotions respond with a very high level of love.

It’s important to remember that because a number of people may all have these qualities, that it is perfectly reasonable to assume an individual can feel romantic love towards all of them. However, there exists a hierachy of values. That is, no two values hold the same weight in your mind. When comparing two values, you will always value one over the other. So it’s possible that you will feel this very high form of love towards several people, but one will always be higher than the rest.

People can stimulate emotions, yes. Emotions are the response to values and it’s certainly possible to value the traits or actions of other people.

And for this reason (values are independent of physical sensations, and dependent on your mind), it is very clear that love is something your mind responds to (such as your thinking self and your emotions). Your hand cannot suddenly give you a sensation of love for another’s sense of humor. That’s only something your mind can do.

In regards to determinism vs. free will, what form/theory of determinism are you arguing? Everyone I run into has a different theory or belief of determinism and how it works etc… It becomes a real pain in the arse to argue it too.

My apologese for mispelling your name, it’s just that I know so many Mark’s, and so few Mack’s that after the first time I spelled your name right - my instinct just took over from habit and I began to spell it Mark.

Mack stated:

Why not? I mean is it a matter of length? There is always the essay section. There is no limit to how long your post can be. You must understand that in order for me to understand a view different from my own, I must be admitted to review your very foundations (philosophical base) first and foremost, if I am ever to understand at all.

You make, what appears to be an important distinction for you view. The being that there is a crucial difference between sexual attraction for matter and sexual attraction for personality traits. But I am not convinced by your distinction. Follow me here…

Mack stated:

Why is it that we do not choose our sensual pleasure? Answering that it’s part of our nature could be used just as easily to argue that it is part of our nature to like people with this or that personality trait. Obviously we don’t all have the same likes in personality, so what is it that creates diversity? Pick something you don’t like about people and tell me whether the first time you encountered such a trait in people, you rationally thought “okay, wait, now should I choose to like this trait or not, and why not” or did you automatically just like or dislike the trait and make your rational conclusions later? If you did, then it would appear that we don’t have a choice in what aspects of anothers personality we like, we just instinctively do.

Mack stated:

Mack, as a baby you didn’t laugh for no reason and begin to rationalize your laugh. You weren’t sitting around doing nothing going through your inventory of things to do in you mind, and say, ‘hey, LAUGHING, I haven’t tried that program out yet, lets see what it does’. You laughed because someone did something that was funny to you. Only after you instinctively laughed did you catch yourself doing something you realized you like and then go to associate it with a pleasant thing and begin to pick out people that cause this pleasant emotion. One cannot experiencing laughing in their laugh - it’s circular argument - something funny caused your laugh first. You said so yourself later on…

Laughter is the same thing. Just as…

in order for you to laugh you must first find something funny. But you do not choose what will be funny to you.

Mack stated:

I’m not convinced by your argument. If there were no two values that hold the same weight in our mind, I think we would all be great prioritizers, but we’re not. Live illustrates just how often we can’t decide which thing is better. And usually, our decision scheme comes down to external facts, not personal ones. For instance, one doesn’t decide on whether they should go to John’s party or go play tennis with Cindy based on values that they have set in the past or that they will set in the present or future. They base their decision on what is important in relation to everything else that is going on around them. Whether it be the time of day, ie. if it’s dark you may decide to go to the party because you hate to play tennis in artificial light because it gives you a headache. If you were correct, than Maslow’s hierarchy of needs would have solved all economic, psychological, and philosophical debates between how to run society, how to treat people, and how to prioritize all aspects of life. But Maslow’s theory remains exactly that…a theory. For the simple reason that people don’t work by his model, and some people are actually happier by what Maslow describes as lower needs than higher needs, which goes against his theory. Maybe humans are just too dynamic and unpredictable.

I have spoken to numerous people, read numerous books, and watch enough movies, talk shows, and other shows to know that the theme of indecision and professed love for more than one person are too prevalent in our society for it to be true what you propose. But my rationale still awaits you to change my mind.

About the determinism, it is difficult to say. For I am not certain what to call it myself, but it looks closest to compatabilism or what is sometimes called soft determinism. In my heart I am a soft determinist, but my logic and rationale, which haven’t changed my hearts decision yet, are convinced by far that hard determinism is true. I am still trying to find a way out of hard determinism till this day.

What’s your take?

I don’t like people who lie.

However, I do not get some instictively bad feeling when someone lies to me. As I have developed intellectually I have decided (yes, decided) that lying is wrong. Human beings need reason to survive. You can’t reason realistically with lies and falsehoods. A life proper to man is that of objective facts. Lying hinders my ability to reason and think freely, hence my dislike of lying.

I can learn about a particular trait of people without experiencing it. From there, I can decide whether I find that trait appealing, disgusting, attractive etc… without ever actually seeing or experiencing others with such a trait.

I’m not sure what you’re saying entirely in the laughing bit. I think I agree with you but at the same time I think you’re rebutting what I’m saying, haha. I’ll have to think about it for awhile.

The example you gave with tennis and partying boils down to context. No action can be judged rationally out of context. It’s perfectly fine to value tennis over parties. However, you must consider the context, or as you called it, “external facts”. Do you value tennis so much more than parties that you’d be willing to suffer the headache? The headache has a place in your values as well. I understand what you’re saying but I don’t think it negates the hierarchy of values.

Anyway, I need to eat some food. You’ve succeeded in draining my mental energy for now. :]

Oh, and I forgot.

If you’re interested in my philosophical fundamentals, they fall in line a great deal with those of Objectivism. I would suggest looking up Objectivism or Ayn Rand (its founder) in an encylopedia or something. Most of the fundamentals can probably be found there.

It focuses on rational self-interest, rights, and an objective reality (that which we percieve with our senses). Objectivists reject all forms of determinism, including genetics, as well as anything supernatural, such as God or spirits.

Ugh, I’m not a big fan of Rand. She deserves not a single mention in any of my general philosophy books, including the Oxford companion to philsophy. I’ve never really thought of her as a philospher, none of her ideas are amazing or new, it’s just the set of philosophies she’s put together pretty much defines how most people live anyway. I always feel a little sad when I see someone advocating selfishness as a moral philosophy, they seemed to have missed the point entirely. And there’s plenty of problems with laissez-faire capitalism too.

I mean it’s fine to say there’s an objective reality, but simply stating it isn’t philosophizing, it’s adopting a position. What I read from aynrand.org certainly didn’t sound like anything more than a “it’s true cause it’s gotta be true” type of argument, which isn’t philosophy at all. If she’d added anything new or interesting to the debate she’d be on every philosophy course about reality, which certainly isn’t true at my uni, one of the best in the UK. Hmm, the more I read the more I am not impressed.

Anyway, sorry, all I wanted to say that to deny genetics is a bit odd cause you see it’s effects every day of your life. I have blonde hair cause of the genes passed on by my parents, there was absolutely no chance of me having blue hair. This in turn makes me more attractive to certain people, and less to others. So there is a form of determinism in the world, it’s just not concrete determinism, which I argued against philosophically above, rather than just stating that it’s not true.

I’m also fairly convinced that there is a modicum of truth behind innate ideas. I’m not saying we’re born with certain concepts in our head, like murder is wrong, I completely agree with Locke that that kind of innate idea is nonsense. I’m saying that we are born with certain predispositions, like pain is bad, warmth is good,sex is good (upon maturity), etc.We can reason ourselves away from these, but we tend to swing towards them at first and it requitres effort on our part to break with them.

Objectivists reject genetics as a form of determinism in regards to thoughts, and your conscious being. Objectivists don’t deny genetics as a whole. Obviously your skin color and hair color are determined by genetics, but none of your mental capacity is.

Why do you get sad when you see someone advocating selfishness?

And please point out the things “wrong” with laissez-faire capitalism.

You’re born with sensory perception; it is necessary for your survival. Your senses register pain when your life is being opposed, and pleasure when it’s being supported. This has nothing to do with your mental capacity, per se (except that you can’t think if you’re dead).

Oh and one more thing to help unconfuse you.

Rand didn’t discover anything new about reality. She only applied objective reality to philosophy, which no other had done before her.

Everything we know about reality can be traced back to Aristotle.

The oft repeated quote, all philosophy after aristotle is just a footnote is bad poetry in my opinion. There are plenty of schools and thoughts of philosophy which are far reaching in their breadth, originality and effectivness. At best we can attribute the foundations of Western philosophy to Aristotle. The only tracing you can do is the historical development. Certainly he did not come up with barely any of the modern concepts. What about phenomenology? That was started at the beginning of the last century. There are plenty of other modes of though, Berkley’s idealism, Descartes skeptism, which Aristotle certainly didn’t have anything to do with. In fact much of the troubles in that era of resisting these theories were because many European Universities exclusivly taught Aristotlean philosopy and so didn’t want any new theories showing that their previous work had been pointless.

How can you apply objective reality to philosophy? That doesn’t make any sense to me. As objective reality is a philosophical term, you’re effectivly applying philosophy to philosophy.

There have been plenty of objections to laissez-faire capitalism, Marx being one of the immediate ones that springs to mind and it certainly isn’t practiced in the modern world. We have plenty of laws and such making both American, UK and European economic systems a type of Social Capitalism rather than laissez-faire. The concept of laissez-faire capitalism leads to morally repugnant ideas of not having a social security system, not protecting consumers against lies and deciets by companies, not protecting our environment from unscrupulous producers, monopolies being perfectly legal, exploitation of people’s economic situation being legal, I could find many more examples if you so wish. Some of these objections do disappear depending on what type of laissez-faire capitalism rand advocates, but certainly not all of them.

The whole idea of a Rand’s morality is absurd as we all practice altruism all the time within our family groups, under Rand, there would be no such thing as an adulterer, there would be no compulsion to bring up children, you don;'t want it, abandon it on the street (and remember, no social security and no altruism from other people means we walk on by as it lies, cries and dies).

And you wanna know why it makes me sad? Cause calling a system of selfishness isn’t a moral theory at all, it’s an excuse to duck responsibility and let suffering continue just because it’s not convinient forpeople to face upto their moral obligations.

Finally, I would argue that there is some effect of genetics on thought at it is partially genetics that determines our cognitive capacities and soour ability to comprehend ideas. We are not intellectual equals, much as we are not physical equals, whatever our governments try and pretend. The “nurture/nature” debate has pretty much burnt out concluding that it is part of both systems that determine our intellectual capacities. So it must affect thought in some way. It also will affect thoughts when yor body starts releasing mind altering drugs into your system, I’m sure most have us have felt the shift in mental patterns before/after sex, our libido will be determined by genetics, so the extent of that randiness will affect the extent of the effect of sexual desire on our thought processes. So though I will admit that genetics won’t make us think “Black man bad”, it will predispose us to agreewith a beautiful woman to do a task we wouldn’t do if asked by an ugly one. Hence the effect of genetics.

Is this a joke? I don’t know, maybe we should come up with a generic response to Objectivists and just push a button so we can be done with it. Oh, wait, I see now, you mean Rand misapplied objective reality (the two together are nonsensical by the way. What would subjective reality be?) to a misreading of certain texts in philosophy and basically tried to reverse Marx.

Galt’s Gulch is the best description of communism in action that I’ve ever read.

I think the real question should be whether or not it is wrong to choose who we love.

Sure… When I was younger I made a list of all the qualities I would basically want in a person -= to make me fall in love with them. It was really simple… it was just making sure that I kept track of all the qualities in past people that I didn’t like… so that when I fell in love… I wouldn’t be falling for the same thing. Mainly I wanted someone who was a complete contradiction (as I find myself to be) … I wanted a middle man… someone who is a little bit of everthing - which is actually a lot harder thing to find than most people imagine. Thing is… I made this list… and I didn’t follow it. I dated many people who were completely opposite from anything I had ever hoped for… though there was one person I met and jokingly said to myself “I’m going to fall in love with him…” … but I really just drifted away from that thought… and that person became my best friend…

Then… one day I realized that I loved my best friend… what made me “realize” that I was “in love” ? … One day… I was talking to him… and I had to leave… and I realized that I didn’t want to stop talking to him… I didn’t want to leave him… ever. Not then, not ever again. I did leave and go out to lunch with my family… but I had no appetite… because of this “realization” … yeah it scared me shitless. But as time passed… I finally accepted it as truth… because it never went away… and I finally told him how I felt.

Now, I don’t know if its because I love him… and I’m just wearing rose colored glasses… but… As I’ve gotten to know him… that list I made previously… he’s become everything that I’ve ever wanted on it… everything on it and more. I don’t know if I chose to love him or not- since I did pressume that I would… that could of made me look at him differently and react differently to him than I ever have with anyone else…

Point is - is it wrong to recognize what things you want in a person and find them? I’m the happiest I’ve ever been in ages… and I have an aunt my mother always refers to - who made a “list” of things she would look for in a man… and she made sure her dates had those traits before she dated them… and frankly… shes the only person in my family who has had an easy led and happily led life… especially in the area of marriage.

There are no monopolies in LF capitalism. A monopoly is something that ONLY government intervention can create. Exploitation can occur in any form of economy. In fact, I’d say that exploitation in LF capitalism is much lower than the other known economic systems.

Speak for yourself when you say we all practice altruism.

In the ideal world, abortions would be allowed, and the amount of “unwanted” babies would drastically reduce. There would also probably be laws against abandoning an infant to the streets. That’s certainly not something Rand advocated or implied in her philosophy.

What responsibilities are being ducked? Responsibilities by who’s standards? There’s no such thing as a moral obligation. Hell, that is a contradiction in terms. Morality pertains to choice. Obligation means no choice. The two words have oppoite meanings and put together they mean nothing, really. It’s a fake term coined by altruists to con you into thinking you must help other people and devote your life to your neighbors and society.

Brad, I don’t know what the hell you’re trying to say, but I will try to explain myself better.

Rand is the only philosopher to apply reality to philosophy. That is, applying man’s nature to man’s way of life. There are very few philosophies that recognize the Law of Identity and even fewer that apply it consistently throughout. Rand did. She was the first.

And yes, believe it or not there are people who believe in subjective realities… so the term objective reality seems like a redundancy to intelligent people, but is necessary in most philosophical discussions from lack of understanding.

silver stated:

Hmmm…interesting ideas here. I was wondering if you had anymore thoughts attached to this theme? Further elaboration? Examples? I love to hear more.

silver stated:

How are you so sure? Maybe you met your significant other but they just aren’t your significant other yet. Maybe you already met your significant other many many years ago, maybe you met your significant other a few weeks ago, maybe you are right and you haven’t met your significant other yet, but we can’t BE SURE of any one of these.

Silver stated:

I agree.

Silver stated:

I can’t say I can, but ironically I believe that when I do meet my significant other, if I haven’t already, that I will feel happy/good when we are together. As you described it. About the relationship thing, I usually know whether its going to be short or long. But I haven’t found a person whom I can say I would know right from the start that I would be with them forever. I know people who have said so, and as far as I can tell, it’s been true since. A good friend of mine is a good example, in the first month of dating his significant other, he articulated to me that this was the one for him and that they would get married. They aren’t married yet, but they have been dating for over two years. So far so good…

Silver stated:

Beautifully said, I agree and thank you for your wisdom. It’s so true that so often in life it’s not that we need help solving a problem, it’s just that we need someone to go through things with. Someone to share experiences with, to face lifes challenges with someone and not alone.

What’s your take?

Magius wrote:

uhh… I can try… no promises though because I really don’t have any bases for these thoughts other than pure speculation founded on an absurdly small scientific understanding…
I look at the world around me and wonder how something so stable and predictable is founded on such an unpredictable and chaotic world governed by probabilities.
So I thought; just like our reality of objects and places is based on a smaller quantum realm… so is life and, accordingly, the human existence.
We, ourselves, only exist in this form (self-aware, with bodies) because we originally exist in another form at a molecular/subatomic/beyond level. And it is this ‘micro’ part of the reality of our existence which allows us to experience the present ‘macro’ part of our existence. So you can say that our ‘macro’ consciousness is a by product of our ‘micro’ consciousness. And our macro state is a by product of our micro state … And so everything we do or think or choose… is really done, thought and chosen at a smaller part of us, a “micro” consciousness…

Err… I wouldn’t be surprised if you have no clue what I’m talking about… These are just random thoughts that i haven’t refined or justified…
Anyways… so what do u think?.. feel free to add ideas, point out errors in concept &/or logic … ask more questions…etc…

you know… i never thought of it like that…

Beautifully said… :wink:

Nobody seems to realize that before you can be in love you must reach that which Aristotle said is the goal of philosphy, eudaimonia…happiness. How can you love someone and give them all of you if you haven’t reached into yourself and tapped into your soul. You can’t give what you don’t have. Once you do that, you’ll find love and love will find you. We work too hard on finding it when in fact it will come to us when we are ready. Forcing it will not result in long term happiness.

Big Aristotle,
nice words of wisdom. You are correct in your observation of a lack of appearance of any understanding from people that they must be happy with themselves before they can be happy with others. I completely agree about one having to love themselves before they can truly love another, they must be happy with themselves before they can be truly happy with another, etc. I’ve spoken those very words in a few posts within the forums.

But I must express my critique in your reference to Eudamonia. I do not believe in teleology, atleast not in the objective and universal sense. What most people also don’t realize is that we anthropomorphize to nature, matter, and the universe which hinders or effectively slows down progress in developing our knowledge. Eudamonia is suppose to be the highest end according to Aristotle. Nothing can be higher than this end, nothing can make it better because it is the highest. But if I have Eudamonia, it must be remembered that it isn’t necessarily happiness, but a completedness. Well, if I am complete than what is the point of a significant other? On Contraire, most people would tell you that their significant other MAKES them complete. So no one can truly feel Eudamonia until they are with their significant other, but that means that they cant be in Eudamonia before they love as you suggested, for that is a contradiction. The vertex of this paradox lies in the concept of Eudamonia. It’s simply false, too ideological to be properly applied to reality. Another erroneous concept within Eudamonia is the simple fact that we all supposedly strive toward this end instinctively. But a criteria for Eudamonia is the it must be choiceworthy, we must choose it. But if we are instinctively striving for it, than we are not making a choice, we are determined to go after it, whether it be by genes, or some other coercive force within or exterior to us.

I also agree that love comes to us, it’s not something we find logically or rationally. Which is also something I have stated within my posts. It’s the one part of love that must be left to fate, in my opinion. Love isn’t something that has categorese or groups to which you can refer and check off on a list and then finally tell yourself you are in love. Like the Oracle in the MATRIX said “No one can tell you ‘you are in love’, you just know it”.

Big Aristotle stated:

I couldn’t agree more. It is the short sided effects of forcing love that people get boggled down with. It becomes attractive, extreme amounts of euphoria in short spurts of time. It makes our lives like roller coasters, we come to feel extremely inadequate once these short euphoric experiences are hard to come by, we depend on them for our identity. It’s much the same with drugs, alcohol, or any other addiction for that matter. In the fast paced life we live in, it has become harder and harder to come by people that understand your above statement. I am so glad you posted it. I hope many read it, more importantly, I hope more come to understand it.

What’s your take?

Magius,
Thanks for the thoughts on eudaimonia as, to tell you the truth, I didn’t know as much about it as I should have. Actually, after reading your thoughts on it, I realized that I failed to see the hypocrisy of what I was saying about eudaimonia preceding love. Just for arguments sake, can one feel eudaimonia without a significant other (let’s just disregard the ideological nature of eudaimonia)? Or do we need a significant other in order to be complete and feel eudiamonia?

Magius stated:

Regarding that, I have this additionally to say: The reason people force it is because they feel the need to settle for less than the best. This is more often than not due to restraints they put on themselves. By “best” I mean best for them, that which will allows them to move forward on this path towards arete, eudaimonia, happiness, content, whatever. Sometimes I wonder how long we are going to last here because most suffer from the wrong kind of selfishness. The one that impacts others in a negative way, and us in a positive, but the thing is that most of those are physical things and subject to change at any moment. People need to start being selfish and working on their soul and slow down life to a snail’s pace for a while. When that happens we won’t need to ask the question: Do we pick who we fall in love with?

Well, a lot of people argue that they are not happy without the person they love. In these cases, it would be impossible to ever love anyone.

Person A needs to be happy to love person B.
Person A needs to love person B to be happy.

See where this goes?