Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:51 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Oh , I just received news that my cousin died ...

So I took a break.

Stop being so damn mean to me.

There has to be a solution to zero sum, consent violating realities.

Philosophic zombies
Hallucinating from eternal forms
Or hyperdimensional mirrors.

Necessity here will be the mother of invention


I'll go crawl back in my cave for a while on this...

Thx for the discussion.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby Silhouette » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:18 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Oh , I just received news that my cousin died ...

That sucks, man.

I hope you're ok.

Ecmandu wrote:I'll go crawl back in my cave for a while on this...

Thx for the discussion.

Caves are good - they force you to find and create your own illumination.

Stay too long though, and the rheumatism sets in.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:47 pm

Silhouette wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Oh , I just received news that my cousin died ...

That sucks, man.

I hope you're ok.

Ecmandu wrote:I'll go crawl back in my cave for a while on this...

Thx for the discussion.

Caves are good - they force you to find and create your own illumination.

Stay too long though, and the rheumatism sets in.


I took it well... but maybe not subconsciously, because I've been "out of sorts" all day and couldn't sleep last night.

So let's whittle this down to bare bones...

Does information get destroyed in existence?

If yes, there are definitely no eternal forms, if no, there definitely are.

My personal take without argument right now, my mind currently is like a piece of jello... is that no information gets destroyed in existence.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:21 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Silhouette wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Oh , I just received news that my cousin died ...

That sucks, man.

I hope you're ok.

Ecmandu wrote:I'll go crawl back in my cave for a while on this...

Thx for the discussion.

Caves are good - they force you to find and create your own illumination.

Stay too long though, and the rheumatism sets in.


I took it well... but maybe not subconsciously, because I've been "out of sorts" all day and couldn't sleep last night.

So let's whittle this down to bare bones...

Does information get destroyed in existence?

If yes, there are definitely no eternal forms, if no, there definitely are.

My personal take without argument right now, my mind currently is like a piece of jello... is that no information gets destroyed in existence.


Yeah! I won the debate!

If information ever gets destroyed, the first thing someone might think is that nobody would know.

BUT! There's actually a proof that it doesn't...

If it ever is destroyed, it couldn't exist in any present state in the first place, as the present is a subset of its existence.

So: eternal forms exist
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:33 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
Does information get destroyed in existence ?

Specific information can get destroyed but information per se not so because it will always be there in some form or other in a physical system
This is because the system itself is information even if it is not understood [ all knowledge is information but not all information is knowledge ]
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:50 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
Does information get destroyed in existence ?

Specific information can get destroyed but information per se not so because it will always be there in some form or other in a physical system
This is because the system itself is information even if it is not understood [ all knowledge is information but not all information is knowledge ]


I realized about 10 minutes after I posted that, that you'd come back and say that. So I gave myself a day to think on it. The key to eternal forms really is the knowledge factor. I would say that to the extent that there's a cure for Alzheimer's, then there are eternal forms. Currently, there isn't, other than being possessed by a memory keeper, what some people might call gods. But as has often been stated through the ages, we can do anything with technology that we can do with the mind. To this regard, a cure for Alzheimer's is not impossible.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby Meno_ » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:13 pm

Interesting thread based on a futile thought.

First of all presumptive reasoning reduces to the merit of the presumption, whether determining the substance of the hypothetical. There was a very long and drawn out discussion when St. James was still here discussing the Universalization of the idea of 1=.999999999~ or not which seemed seemed to drive some crazy.

Universals dictate the content of conscious manifested intent here, as in Nietzsche , the ego coming through in times of lack of substantiative evidence, and looks bad for the promoter of idealism, and such appearance I encountered with post ex-facto modern terms within which (context) meaning is established.

So a cross wire is created, and the presumption seems to violate the rule of leaving one's ego behind.

Another form of the presumptive Universalization becomes evident through the misunderstanding around the ego appearing as a product of self realized factual acquisition.( in other words no one is on an ego trip here since it's only the results of this apparent cross- wiring. Its only a post.modern sense of simulation what its at work here, for lack of what is termed substantive.

This is Middle Ages' stuff , preceeding Nietzsche, and it was Him who concerned Himself with the issue.

Fractal Ontology
Nietzsche’s Glance at the State: Socialism, Nationalism, Universalism
Taylor Adkins.

In January of 1872, less than a year after Germany officially becomes a nation, Nietzsche gives a series of five lectures at the University of Basel on the future of our educational/cultural institutions. Six years later in section 8 of Human All Too Human we find Nietzsche discussing the future of political institutions and the fate of European nations. One of the questions that Nietzsche asks in his analysis of socialism, nationalism and democracy is whether or not these political orientations are strong enough for an affirmative investment in the development of cultural forces­, investments that one day will lead to institutions that address the true needs of all of humanity (476). Nietzsche always comments on different state organizations in terms of their speeds of evolution and lifespan.


Since all institutions are mortal, the relations of power between the citizens among themselves address a problem of the measurement of forces behind the repetition of a set of customs that guarantees the dominance of a state through the rigid adherence to one particular mode of cultural development (474). Arguing against sudden revolutionary change, Nietzsche proposes a slow evolution through inquiries utilizing the political concept of force along with a cultural program for the “gradual transformation of the mind” (452). Nietzsche insists that to begin to create the foundation for a politics of universal address, “the sense of justice must grow greater in everyone, the instinct for violence weaker” (452). In opposition to the passionate revolution of Rousseau, the task for free spirits will be one of moderation. Moderation is the becoming-decisive of thought and inquiry, and the free-spirit cultivates this quality by drawing potential energy to the promotion of spiritual objectives (464).

What may be even more complex for our examination is the fact that Nietzsche depicts socialism, nationalism and democracy to all have close affiliations and family resemblances. Socialism shows the dangers of the absolute state: it demands complete subservience of the individual through segmenting them as an organ of the community (473). It only appears in short reactionary bursts of terrorism because it has a short and violent lifespan. Nationalism is no better than socialism on this point, even if it has a mechanism to guarantee its duration. Nationalism imposes through education an unconscious reverence for the patria and its customs, and if it can instill a fiery conscience with honor, it can more easily ensure its reproduction in the following generation. The question of the benefits of nationalism and socialism must always be related back to the question of how strong these forms of government are internally and how much force they are capable of deploying for the affirmation of new goals, or as Nietzsche writes: “Whenever a great force exists­ even though it be the most dangerous mankind has to consider how to make of it an instrument for the attainment of its objectives” (446). If it is a question of justice, a socialist revolution will require a minor population the new generation to enter into a struggle with the dominant political state. Only after such a struggle—like May ’68—can the two parties articulate a calculation of forces. Based on this measurement, the existing state will either be able to reincorporate the reactive forces into a new totality or will be forced creating a new compact to prevent mutual losses through violent struggle. Finally, this compact will be able to guarantee the rights for a new social order, rights that may have the potential to satisfy an axiom of justice.

Democracy adds another element that disrupts the previous theorization. For both socialism and nationalism presuppose a dominant set of customs that “distinguish between government and people as though there were here two distinct spheres of power, a stronger and higher and a weaker and lower” (450). Democracy, however, puts forth the idea that the government is merely an organ of the people who embody the state’s power in their essence. It is important to realize that this essence constitutes the way in which the relationship between people and government reflects the organizations of other cultural relationships (teacher-pupil, general-soldier, etc.) (450). However, Nietzsche also thinks that “modern democracy is the historical form of the decay of the state,” a decay that is in itself an affirmative process (472). Democracy eats away at the layers of the state and the stratified cultural relations that they entail. This decay allows for the free spirit to collect potential energy for the invention of different institutions that will provide for the prudence and self-interests of all men.

Nietzsche’s utopia would consist in a dissemination of labor throughout the population by means of measuring how much suffering a group of tasks would cause the sensibility of different types of people (462). This cannot be achieved realistically insofar as we lack the instruments to measure the differences of degree and the capacity that people have for enduring different forms of labor. But the idea is a beginning. It offers a vision of a compact that assures the rights of everyone through the development of a form of life that affirms in a radical way the potential energy behind individual suffering. This minimizes the individual’s suffering and promotes a strong sense of self-worth along with the promotion of a contribution to society. It is with this type of society that individuals are able to exist on a level plain of power: each individual is capable of the same amount of value in his or her production of force, and so each individual is judged according to an immanent set of criteria that does not negate their individuality. This is the true foundation for a justice, insofar as Nietzsche believes that only among equals can the sense of justice begin to develop.

–Taylor Adkins


In my mind , you guys are indulging in a circular reasoning predating St Anselm, structurally grappling with the dynamic effort to dis-establish the zero sum effect, which unfortunately recurs in vengeance. This re-occurrence has come up again and again, most definitely in Nietzche, and
the most that can be said is what he implied about it in a moral sense. It is really beyond judgement, so it does present a kind of enigma, an enigma which has apparently been done away by game theory.

So I would give Ec the thumbs up in the post modern sense at this vantage point, and as far as the physical manifestation. of this argument can be demonstrated, the spatial- temporal continuity has still vestiges of nominal distinction of positing spatial determinants to temporal awareness, and as long as that is held, no overtures to unity can truly be demonstrated by utility.
Last edited by Meno_ on Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby surreptitious75 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:14 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
we can do anything with technology that we can do with the mind

The scope of the mind is greater than that of technology because you can think of things which have yet to be discovered
There are fewer restrictions with the mental than the physical which is why imagination is always ahead of actual reality
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby Ecmandu » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:32 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
we can do anything with technology that we can do with the mind

The scope of the mind is greater than that of technology because you can think of things which have yet to be discovered
There are fewer restrictions with the mental than the physical which is why imagination is always ahead of actual reality


Initially, I just wanted to say that I agree with you, but of course the exception is intelligent machines with self awareness and autonomy and imaginations, which by definition are also technology.

What I find interesting to that regard is the idea of what separates us from them, are we just intelligent machines as well?

Doesn't bother me if we are, so long as we have a degree of autonomy.

There are many things I love about life. Without limitations, we can't experience any of this at all.

So I am comfortable with the idea of being a machine to that regard.

Think about how many millions of limitations are required to lean over, pull a rose towards you and smell it. Some people misinterpret limitations as cages, rather than truly embracing them. Autonomy is key though.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby surreptitious75 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:12 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Some people misinterpret limitations as cages rather than truly embracing them

Everything that exists has limitations but for human beings the eternal challenge is to
find ways that bypass them whether they be physical or psychological or technological
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby lordoflight » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:32 pm

I am afraid surreptitious is right. Ecmandu is simply full of beans (hot gas) as per usual. As for his cousin, I would glad have let my cousin die to let his live. My cousin is an asshole.

But let's be real Ecmandu has never been to hell for 4 million years as he said. He is a sad confused man and burdened with some form of mental illness. Addressing all his arguments is draining of energy.

To summarize, no we cannot magically create our own universes. First of all many people already acknowledge we did not consent to be here in this world. I don't see how that would grant anyone god powers. Second, 75% of people are subhuman NPCs with no soul or thoughts. So we already partially have Ecmandu's mirror universe, yet it is not a good one.

Finally, information does not exist. Steven Hawking popularized the idea of information being a thing. It is not.
Information only exists relative to intelligent beings able to process the information and connect it to memes. Without intelligence there is no information.
And yes, as surreptitious said, information, ie. intelligence may always exist. Which I don't know why surreptitious said that because it proves reincarnation is real.

Anyway, in response to "If it ever is destroyed, it couldn't exist in any present state in the first place, as the present is a subset of its existence." The answer is no. I don't know how any of that logically follows.

anyway, mixing up fonts because its boring.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:35 pm

Surreptitious did not disagree with me with that last post, funnily enough, even used the words "eternal struggle" with it. He can of course renounce it, and say something else.

Your post is so full of contradictions that I'm not sure where to start ...

Since we do exist, information exists. If the universe ever discards all information, we are a subset, or as you state, the set of information, there'd be no information and we wouldn't be here to have this discussion.

From my perspective, you're just another guy contradicting himself to invest in getting women to consent to sex with you.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby Meno_ » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:45 pm

Agreed

In - toward inner
Form- building up
Ation- an action.

In-form-ation
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby lordoflight » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:26 am

Ecmandu wrote:Surreptitious did not disagree with me with that last post, funnily enough, even used the words "eternal struggle" with it. He can of course renounce it, and say something else.

Your post is so full of contradictions that I'm not sure where to start ...

Since we do exist, information exists. If the universe ever discards all information, we are a subset, or as you state, the set of information, there'd be no information and we wouldn't be here to have this discussion.

From my perspective, you're just another guy contradicting himself to invest in getting women to consent to sex with you.


From where I stand, you're just a random wackjob on the internet making up total bs either because you are really delusional, or pretending to be delusional and just doing it to get a laugh.

Your views on dating are some of the most ridiculous I've ever heard. My post had no contradictions I'm aware of and if it did, no it wasn't some convoluted attempt to pickup shieldmaiden. None of the chicks on this site even live anywhere near me anyway.

Your logic makes no sense anyway. And why do you keep repeating yourself over and over with no evidence. Where is the evidence that the future effects the past? Where is the evidence we can be gods and make our own universe? No evidence of any kind. And it's like you have the mind of a feminist too. Like if some guy slaps a woman on the ass and she gets turned on, boo hoo hoo, cry me a river. He didn't ask for permission to slap her on the ass so the universe is evil. Jesus christ grow up.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:52 am

Trixie, you are not a psychopath, but you are a narcissist. You are mad that I got attention that you didn't.

You see trixie, even though I won the debate in eternal forms, I see it as a loss (maybe someone else, like you, wanted to win it)

There is only one victory in existence : 100% non zero sum consensual realities.

The rest is losses.

I'm hard wired that way, you are not.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby lordoflight » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:58 am

Ecmandu wrote:Trixie, you are not a psychopath, but you are a narcissist. You are mad that I got attention that you didn't.

You see trixie, even though I won the debate in eternal forms, I see it as a loss (maybe someone else, like you, wanted to win it)

There is only one victory in existence : 100% non zero sum consensual realities.

The rest is losses.

I'm hard wired that way, you are not.


More delusions from you. You actually think I am jealous of you. That's actually funny. You are "cute", as the Joker would say.

Who I'm jealous of: Lesbians. Rich people. Rich visionaries who actually accomplished their goals. Legends and fictional characters also.


Sorry you did not make the list. Your vids don't even have enough views for me to be even jealous.

What you are is just irritating. You make up these ridiculous ideas and never give any evidence to back them up and its just annoying. Me posting was actually trying to help you. To make you aware of your own delusions.

As for narcissists thats you. You have delusions and always think you win every debate.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:54 am

lordoflight wrote:
Information only exists relative to intelligent beings able to process the information and connect it to memes . Without intelligence there is no information

Information can exist without intelligent beings to process it because it is not actual knowledge
Information can be just nonsense that is not meant to be understood but other times it is not understood simply because it is in some codified form
Example : if you do not understand English it will just appear as information to you but if you do understand it then it will also appear as knowledge
Knowledge is therefore a subset of information because it is only information that is understood
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:35 am

lordoflight wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Trixie, you are not a psychopath, but you are a narcissist. You are mad that I got attention that you didn't.

You see trixie, even though I won the debate in eternal forms, I see it as a loss (maybe someone else, like you, wanted to win it)

There is only one victory in existence : 100% non zero sum consensual realities.

The rest is losses.

I'm hard wired that way, you are not.


More delusions from you. You actually think I am jealous of you. That's actually funny. You are "cute", as the Joker would say.

Who I'm jealous of: Lesbians. Rich people. Rich visionaries who actually accomplished their goals. Legends and fictional characters also.


Sorry you did not make the list. Your vids don't even have enough views for me to be even jealous.

What you are is just irritating. You make up these ridiculous ideas and never give any evidence to back them up and its just annoying. Me posting was actually trying to help you. To make you aware of your own delusions.

As for narcissists thats you. You have delusions and always think you win every debate.


Narcissistic, childish, delusional and shallow.

Just another person I have to pick up the slack for.

You REALLY don't get it!

Winning in a zero sum world / reality is LOSING

Your heroes are all losers.

That's your narcissism talking...

Your plan for world peace was to make everyone in existence into female lesbians.

That's the height of your intelligence.

The summit.

I actually care about consent, you don't.

That makes my work much more difficult than yours.

Try solving every consent in existence for a change and join real adulthood.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby lordoflight » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:33 am

surreptitious75 wrote:
lordoflight wrote:
Information only exists relative to intelligent beings able to process the information and connect it to memes . Without intelligence there is no information

Information can exist without intelligent beings to process it because it is not actual knowledge
Information can be just nonsense that is not meant to be understood but other times it is not understood simply because it is in some codified form
Example : if you do not understand English it will just appear as information to you but if you do understand it then it will also appear as knowledge
Knowledge is therefore a subset of information because it is only information that is understood


No because without intelligence it wouldn't appear as anything. Materials are not information until an intelligence categorizes them into forms.

Ecmandu wrote:
Narcissistic, childish, delusional and shallow.

Just another person I have to pick up the slack for.

You REALLY don't get it!

Winning in a zero sum world / reality is LOSING


I'm well aware of reincarnation, that is why I don't believe in prison. If someone kills my friend then I kill them. Not lock them in a cage to suffer like that. It is the rest of the world who just don't get it. When you throw someone to prison you throw your future self into prison.

Your heroes are all losers.

I agree that is why i think batman is a loser who wastes his money on fighting criminals in a city that he could spend his money to make better.

That's your narcissism talking...

Your plan for world peace was to make everyone in existence into female lesbians.

It's your narcissism that can't see how its a great idea. Obviously you ain't happy as a man so why do you resist?

Anyway that plan is way out of date my upgrade is this. A world mostly females but with some men here and there to reproduce the human race. And by men I mean interesting men, not boring beta males like you see on modern tv.

That's the height of your intelligence.

The summit.

No its the height of your narcissism trying to insult my intelligence. But everyone else knows what a fool you are. And my plan wasn't some great project that took me years to brainstorm. It is basic 2+2 stuff I didn't have to spend much energy on.
I actually care about consent, you don't.

Do you? Is that why you eat animals, who've been locked in cages their whole lives? Or have you finally seen the light and became vegetarian?
That makes my work much more difficult than yours.

Your work is much more difficult because in order for it to work people need to magically obtain god powers. With mine all is needed is science.

Try solving every consent in existence for a change and join real adulthood.

More like join real godhood.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:52 am

Trixie,

You still want the power of winning over others...

You're mind is still in the zero sum world, you're solutions, your heroes...

think about this...

In non consent violating, non zero sum realities, there is no need for, religion, morality, karma or rebirth (unless that's your fetish!). It wipes the slate clean. Why are you wasting your whole intellect on dominating people the way you do...

It's people like you that I have to carry...

There is only one work. One job. Make reality less zero sum, less consent violating. The big job is to remove both completely.

You're not seeing the larger picture, and wasting your energy in dominating others.

I spent a year looking into pz universes...

They don't work.

It has to be hyperdimensional mirrors now, hallucinations still violate consent, or make it unfalsifiable that you are violating consent.

Plus, hyperdimensional mirrors allow for a live environment ...

So I've been doing this for the last several months...

Consent violating realities with zero sum worlds cause infinite bad karma...

Just using tools men made cause bad karma...

That's all of us!!

You don't understand karma worlds as well as you think.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby lordoflight » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:00 am

Ecmandu wrote:Trixie,

You still want the power of winning over others...

You're mind is still in the zero sum world, you're solutions, your heroes...

think about this...

In non consent violating, non zero sum realities, there is no need for, religion, morality, karma or rebirth (unless that's your fetish!). It wipes the slate clean. Why are you wasting your whole intellect on dominating people the way you do...

It's people like you that I have to carry...

There is only one work. One job. Make reality less zero sum, less consent violating. The big job is to remove both completely.

You're not seeing the larger picture, and wasting your energy in dominating others.

I spent a year looking into pz universes...

They don't work.

It has to be hyperdimensional mirrors now, hallucinations still violate consent, or make it unfalsifiable that you are violating consent.

Plus, hyperdimensional mirrors allow for a live environment ...

So I've been doing this for the last several months...

Consent violating realities with zero sum worlds cause infinite bad karma...

Just using tools men made cause bad karma...

That's all of us!!

You don't understand karma worlds as well as you think.


The world has to be ran by a great ruler, and that ruler is me.

I am against all dictatorships that are not ran by me. So I'm not saying the world should be engulfed into such a thing, unless that such a thing is me.

Now I hear you man. You have a good idea of a planet. But I just don't believe it can be done.

You keep blabbering about hyperdimensional mirrors and making our own perfect world with what...god powers? You never explain how it can be done. You are like a religious prophecy. Can't happen and never will happen. You're an idealist, I'm a practicalist.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:02 am

lordoflight wrote:
Materials are not information until an intelligence categorizes them into forms

Information is the state of potential knowledge before any attempt at categorisation
Once it is understood then it becomes knowledge though it is still information as well
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:09 am

Trixie,

Infinite bad karma. Your way.

That's not practical to me.
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby lordoflight » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:15 am

Ecmandu wrote:Trixie,

Infinite bad karma. Your way.

That's not practical to me.


Infinite bad karma? For what? Making a better world? Making a better planet? Please.

Your idea is not even possible so what is so practical about your idea anyway?
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Re: Do you folks still doubt me about platonic forms?

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:20 am

Ecmandu wrote:Trixie,

Infinite bad karma. Your way.

That's not practical to me.


I'll give you some very hard earned lessons.

If you want existence to work for you, you have to be two things:

1.) perfectly logical
2.) perfectly sympathetic

--- for your last reply, anything a man invented that humans use cause bad karma, unless you can break out of this world system
Ecmandu
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