What makes sense in Ethics

Rational conscious human beings want things to make sense. This is another way of saying that they want things to have some meaning. To have some meaning is to have some value, for to be meaningful is to be valuable, and vice versa. The converse is true also: what we find to be valuable is at once meaningful to us.

One way for an individual to have value is for him/her to create value. In each situation in which one finds oneself one may ask: how can I add value here and now? How can I upgrade this; how can I improve, innovate, make for more harmonious human relations, boost someone up, give a sincere compliment, make someone smile, make some arrangement that is mutually beneficial, is a win/win for all concerned? How can I be more efficient and effective?

What does it mean to be “effective”? In Ethics, the new paradigm proposed by the Hartman/Katz frame of reference, to be effective is to act so as to contribute toward a Quality Life for one and all. This, they propose, is the ultimate purpose of Ethics …the provision of a Quality Life, one of well-being and flourishing, for one and for all. This makes sense to me, for one.

Now you may say, this is all well and good but there is evil out there. There are bad people, malicious people who in seeking their own ends, are ready and willing to hurt folks of good will. These evil-minded “jackals” don’t care about anyone else as they pursue money, or comply with dogma and ideology, and believe that violence will help them achieve their ends-in-view.

For example, on March 24, 2015, this man, Andreas Lubitz, was a mass-murderer, killing 149 people at once, in addition to himself. We learn from new stories some facts, as in the report following:
[size=92]“It’s been a week since Germanwings co-pilot Andreas Lubitz crashed a commercial plane into the French Alps — and much of the conversation since has focused on his mental health and medical record, especially at the time of the incident.
We know that Lubitz visited an eye doctor just before the flight for an apparent vision issue, and was deemed unfit to operate the aircraft. No medical professionals have reported Lubitz was suicidal at the time of the Airbus A320 accident, although a European official said he did complain to a neuropsychologist about work stress earlier this year. We also know Lubitz had a history of depression and suicidal thoughts, with a depressive episode in 2009 that halted his pilot’s training for several months. As Duesseldorf public prosecutor Christoph Kumpa told BBC News, he “had at that time been in treatment of a psychotherapist because of what is documented as being suicidal”— something it seems Lufthansa was informed of when Lubitz rejoined the program.” [/size] Also see cnn.com/2015/03/30/europe/fr … rash-main/

In the “free enterprise” economy money is necessary to survive, to pay one’s rent and to buy food. Toward the end of getting money desperate people do desperate things – such as withholding rather-vital information from one’s boss at work in order to keep a job. So Andreas did not inform his employers that he could not see well-enough to go to work the day of his murder-suicide. On top of weak eyesight he had Generalized Anxiety Disorder which his psychotherapists finally revealed. Was Lubitz a “bad” person, a malicious evil-doer, or did he have mental-health issues? Is the latter a euphemism for mental disease, which is a terrible-sounding condition which no one wants to admit one has. Should brain-damage be stigmatized any more than is kidney-dmage?

Is it possible that many if not most people who do bad things of a ‘really evil’ sort have a brain condition? We don’t know the medical status of Irma Grese who contributed her skills to the S.S. in Nazi Germany as a camp guard - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irma_Grese - or the example of the female surgeon, commissioned by the Nazis, who injected ground-glass into the wombs of pregnant concentration-camp prisoners to measure how long it would take to kill the new-born baby. To her this was a scientific experiment. Were these women just “good citizens” doing their part for their nation as a patriot? Was either of them a habitual sadist? Is sadism a sickness? Was the surgeon compliant out of fear and intimidation? She definitely committed evil. There is no question about that.

So many “good Germans” went along to get along once the Third Reich was voted in. Most of the voters were likely ignorant of who their new leader really was, ignorant of his background and his deeply-held anti-semitic, and race-purification, beliefs.

How many bad things are done to good people by others who believe that “violence is a way to solve problems”? Such a belief is held by those with a criminal mind, by military personnel, and by many ordinary citizens. Those who live in the ‘Muddle East’ do not have a monopoly on this concept. It is currently shared by many the world over.

Millions currently sanction vengeance as a form of justice; they speak of it as “getting even.” This concept of retribution was also held by the Hatfield clan and by the McCoy clan. Where they “bad” people? They were only trying to settle the previous score. Scoring points is a very common practice even within otherwise loving families. Also today people frequently “dis” one another; they show disrespect by casually tossing an insult, by name-calling, or by, in some way, putting an individual down. Is this ethical conduct? Is this worthy of one who intends to live a moral life?

After much consideration I have concluded that most all immoral conduct is the result of ignorance or of madness or due to some kind of brain damage - and this is a matter of degree. Some have more severe damage than others.

There is a lot more to be said on this topic, but I have made some points, and asked some questions, for you to comment on. How do you feel about these matters? Let’s hear your views.

I’m still waiting to hear, did anything I wrote in the previous post make sense?

What, in your conception, is the most-basic problem or problems that Ethics - both theoretical and applied - has to overcome?

Why is it a problem?

Can you suggest a possible solution?

  1. Individuals knowing when to listen to whom.
  1. Information overload, a chaos of possibilities with no means to discern them - can’t find the needle in the hay stack.
  1. Yep.

… but then reference (1) above.

Greetings, James

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
No one can disagree that today we have information overload. I get the impression that you, like myself, believe that educating the public, and eventually most of the people on the planet, as to the principles of Ethics and the benefits of living an ethical life is the biggest challenge.

One lives an ethical life when one agrees, and intends, to live by ethical principles. In earlier threads I have offered lists of such principles. :bulb: :bulb: Also relevant here are pp. 37-39 of BASIC ETHICS, [the first link in the signature below.] There a proposed World Constitution is offered, along with a discussion of how its ideas might be propagated. Just as kids learn The Pledge of Allegiance in schools today, they could learn the three Resolutions of the World constitution …if a major Foundation used some of its resources to get it into the school curriculum. This would take a major lobbying effort with school boards and with Education Departments, but first someone with a gift for doing so would have to write an appeal for a foundation grant. On this Appeal the benefits of an ethical world would need to be enumerated. O:)

I believe there is evidence that goodness is the default position of human beings (before they get perverted) and so it follows that it is not asking much of a human being when the ethical theory indicates: Do good !!!
:slight_smile:

Welcome back thinkr,

Superseded only by my challenge to get myself to do it.

And is not living in an environment too completely controlled by others.

I haven’t read that one of yours yet. I am a very strong critique, so mostly likely, I wouldn’t approve of it just as it is. I am already certain of what is necessary. And a “World Constitution” sounds a little scary, but actually could be done properly. The primary and critical issue would be trying to make a constitution that is a good one and also keeps the extremely vulgarly wealthy, extremely vulgarly wealthy. Else it wouldn’t be even worth attempting.

People are what they are programmed to be[size=85] (I’m sure no one knows that any more than me).[/size]

Yes, keep working on it, James; you will succeed. If we set a goal for ourselves, and renew daily our intention to get it done, are determined to be a decent person of integrity who will look for opportunities to create value, to help others, to give a sincere compliment, to be true to one’s true self, etc., it can be done - and it will be.

If at all possible, move away from such an environment! Everyone wants to be in control …at least of their own body, and their own destiny. The theory of Ethics directs an individual to seek and acquire autonomy; and to express individuality.

Yes, this is typical of critics. I might suggest, with all due respect, that one does read it. And when starting to read, approach it constructively rather than destructively. Ask: How can I build on this? How might it be improved? How can the concepts be used to provide a Quality Life for one and all?

[size=88]The alternative is to ask: How can I pick holes in this, and thus show how smart I am? {One’s ego might whisper: I don’t want to appear to be a ‘hero worshiper’ for then others may not think well of me. So I will tear this guy’s stuff apart.} This is not a helpful attitude.[/size]

p.s. Of course If the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it !

As an acquaintance of Fred Skinner - he, B. F. Skinner, showed me around his labs at Harvard University’s William James Hall; and he gave me permission to reprint one of his articles in an anthology I got published - I am convinced that people, if they make up their mind to do so, can resist programming, and even turn the tables on the programmer. It helps if one is aware of what programming is, and the tactics being used. I agree that many people are walking around in a state of unawareness and ignorance.

I for one know that I don’t know. I share in the ignorance.

Peace is one of the key concepts of Ethics.

If a nation claims it wants a peaceful world its officials, spokesmen, its people can’t use threatening tactics nor sanctions that are punishing. Instead you use the power of good example, of mentoring, of mutual aid, and launch ‘Marshall plans,’ construction projects.

You renounce violence if you want peace. Morality, and peace, begins within the individual and spreads outward from there.

Readers:
Your thoughts?

That is the primary reason that one cannot start with a “World Constitution”. To get a world constitution, the world has to agree. The world cannot get itself free of its own programming.

A small group can become free of the programming (I can explain how). That group then must do the “right thing” such as to lead toward a world constitution without violating their ethics. And if such a group works, the issue of a world constitution becomes secondary but inevitable because many such groups will form and be already functioning before and without a world constitution. The world constitution must end up being merely an improvement, not a necessary establishment.

The union cannot be strong if the members are not independently strong. But also the union cannot be strong if the members are totally independent. That has been the issue for thousands of years. Man is not very good as figuring out HOW MUCH to do things.

I can already tell you that needs to change to Harmony, not Peace. Without the momentum of vital activity and interaction, no organization has any long term chance. Total peace is total death.

Then form an “intentional community” using the exact right constitution that inherently leads to a world constitution.

Greetings, James

Thank you for the good suggestions.

You seem to have the impression I started with a World Constitution. This though is not the case.

Have you looked yet at BASIC ETHICS? {See the first link below.} It begins with meta-Philosophy, then proceeds to meta-ethics, then to ethics. It builds, by means of Logic, a carefully-thought-out theory; doing philosophy as it goes along. It shows how the major traditional academic schools of ethics can be (with some specific and specified tools of analysis) defined, absorbed, and integrated into this new synthesis. It turns out that they are not competitors of, but rather subsets of, this new paradigm.

That mini-chapter on the proposed World Constitution is thrown in primarily to stimulate and provoke thought. It suggests some ideals which are implications of the theory of Ethics which is offered.

You are correct that a nonprofit group would have to advocate the adoption of such a Constitution by a movement of some kind that would aim at Foundation backing, lobbying of the U.S.Secretary of Education, and school departments around the nation. All basic social change seems to come from grass-roots, bottom-up, agitation by those who have a sense of solidarity with some like-minded, devoted individuals who have formed themselves into a cohesive group that is focused on a goal, or set of goals.

[The Occupy Wall Street movement did not get very far because they did not have a definite platform, i.e., a set of policies that they wanted to implement. They did not do what it takes to be political with regard to their objectives. They had ideals but did not have a practical set of steps to put those ideals into practice.]

Comments welcome…

[size=150]Before anyone cares what you know, they want to know that you care :exclamation:[/size]

:arrow_right: The argument as to why this is so is available in the o.p. of this link: ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi … 1&t=187763
and the selections (to which you will find links below) are to be supplemented by the insights found there in that thread. :sunglasses:

That isn’t what I meant by “start with”.

That is what I meant by “start with”. And that is what wouldn’t work.

Having read your link, I can now say that what you proposed isn’t a constitution.
This is what a constitution looks like; The Constitution of Rational Harmony.

By what means decisions are made is quintessential to a constitution and to success.

[size=150]If I help you win, then I win too.[/size]

For I aim to have my relationships, my human interactions, win/win whenever possible.

And I shall strive to be helpful and collaborative toward moral ends-in-view. I shall advocate and work for ethical policies; I will “fight” for them until they become actualities. I want to minimize dire poverty. I want to maximize the acquiring of a Quality Life for one and all.

These are some of the concepts and attitudes I have gained from my understanding of Ethics, viz., the body of useful knowledge that goes by the name of Ethics.

Open for your comments…

thinkdr

I havent’ read all of your thread but I will read more.
As for the above quote though. Making sense isn’t just about finding meaning in something. We humans tend to find meaning in things which don’t make sense always. So, making since is also about not seeing contradictions but in seeing something as reasonable and rational.

Yes, valuabe to that person but not necessarily what is of real value.

Said in that way, true.

I’ll get back to you. I like the subject of Ethics.

Greetings, Arcturus Descending
Consciousness Seeker

Yes, you are right: Making sense isn’t just about finding meaning in something.

I was using that concept of “sense” as a segue, as a transition to call attention to the need to spread the word about how urgent it is for our contemporary world to be conscious of the basics.

What is basic is that a human life is valuable ! The Hartman/Katz paradigm for Ethics teaches that life is precious; it is to be treasured. Lots of implications follow from that, such as Avoid violence. Practice nonviolence - satyagraha (truth force.) Push for policies that enhance (the quality of) human life.

Empower people from the bottom up, rather than wait for a ‘trickle down.’ Close perceptual gaps that result in quarrels. Ask questions to learn where your offenders or so-called enemies are “coming from”. In other words, learn of their value structure so that you may find common ground, shared values - then build from there a deal of mutual aid, a win/win deal.

The axiom for Ethics, when stated in imperative form, is Make things morally better! The Axiom implies that we are to avidly seek cooperation, that we want our businesses to be workers cooperatives, or at the least profit-sharing. Let’s have more Creative Collaboration, more sharing and caring in every facet of life.

Harmonious relationships are possible and worth working on, and working for. When we apply the axiom for Ethics this to ourselves it becomes “How can I make myself better?” - it points in the direction of Self-improvement. Then “the ABCs of Emotional Control” becomes relevant. See, for example, amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-k … s&sourceid - and fortunately today there are countless internet sites on the topic of self-improvement …for those who care to learn and grow.

Also see Roots Action - rootsaction.org/about-rootsaction

…Open for comment…

When the topic of ethics is addressed two major questions usually come to our attention:

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

The best answer is that if you concentrate on being a good person you WILL think about the effects your actions will have, and you will think about, and actually do, your responsibilities.

There is more to Ethical Theory though. And it’s this:

The software of the correct values and concepts enable the hardware of effective technologies that will facilitate ethical living …the living of a quality life.

“Grads of Life” is such a technology. usworker.coop/ So also are the countless nonprofits devoted to doing good-cause work that you may learn about on the internet. See YES! magazine and The Rational Optimist magazine for more; they are both available online and are both free. …New ethical technologies are being developed every day. And that is why - if you give them your support and/or your volunteer effort - goodness can prevail over evil.

Your comments?

thinkdr

About what your duty “really” is, right and that’s not so black and white always.
I watched a very poignant video last night called Stop-Loss about the Iraq War. After their tour of duty was over, they returned to the states but the government, the military, felt that they had the right to return them to Iraq after one of them having served in Iraq and Afghanistan…kind of like a back-door draft policy - Stop-Loss policy The main character at first did not want to return. I personally think that it’s a crappy policy.
The thought of “what do you think about your duty” and “about the consequences of your actions” came to my mind during that film.
Do you return and do your duty after having served two or three terms? Do you do your patriotic duty, what the government and military tell you you have to do? Does your life have any value? Do you return only to perhaps die this time around?
Where is the ethics of a country capable of doing this to soldiers who’ve done their duty, forcing them back into active duty again? Anyway…I have to go soon.

That too is a part of real ethical behavior. We are not alone in the world. Everyone is affected by our behavior.

I wouldn’t put it that way. What does “good” mean? Becoming a more self-aware, conscious person, who wants to evolve in that way.

Again you would have to define good. Not all good people will think about the effects of their actions on others.
Sometimes to them being good simply means doing what serves their own purpose, it’s about what makes them feel good about their selves.

Though of course this is a non-existent category, in a pure form. There are not rational conscious people and then other people who are, say, irrational and unconscious. What we have is a vast range of people who are, to varying degrees, conscious and rational about some things and not conscious of other things. Further much of human valuing, choosing, enjoying, is non-rational but not irrational and for much of this one does not need it to make sense.

Meaning is often transrational or non-rational.

But it may not make sense. I like vanilla ice cream and streams more than lakes.

thinkdr

What evidence is there of that? I’m not saying that this is not true. I don’t think it’s so much about "goodness’ per se – I just don’t see that as the human’s default position - but simply about being born with the instinct to survive and for the species to survive. That’s instinct not goodness.

The thought just occurred to me - I wonder if so-called goodness or ethical behavior can be transported through one’s family genes or DNA or perhaps the capacity or potential for it? Anyway, that would still have to be nourished and nurtured I suppose or would it?

Then, perhaps it’s individual human evolution, attained knowledge and the raising of consciousness and transcendence which leads to goodness or a better phrase - ethical behavior. I just somehow don’t think goodness if our default position but i might be a bit jaded that way.

This is certainly true and those people perhaps are fully conscious of what they’re doing - though fully unconscious and asleep at the same time - they’re full of hate or greed and want to destroy just for the sheer fun and joy of it.

I’m not so sure that this was the case of this man though but I may certainly be wrong. He was mentally ill, he was depressed and I think that he just became like a runaway train which couldn’t help itself…another one to just fall through the cracks. Who even knows if he had planned what eventually happened, and if so, just another unfortunate symptom of how far down he became mentally in his depression.

I have the impression that there was a great deal of cause and effect which went into this terrible tragedy beginning with the airlines allowing him to fly in the first place even knowing of his depression and his suicidal tendencies at one point. Now some might say that I’m being biased here but the question arises in mind - does someone with such a history of mental illness ever belong in the cockpit of a plane? But look at the consequences of not judging a whole picture here. There are certain careers/job where people really need to be screened more than periodically I would say and with laser sharpness.

For example, on March 24, 2015, this man, Andreas Lubitz, was a mass-murderer, killing 149 people at once, in addition to himself. We learn from new stories some facts, as in the report following:
“It’s been a week since Germanwings co-pilot Andreas Lubitz crashed a commercial plane into the French Alps — and much of the conversation since has focused on his mental health and medical record, especially at the time of the incident.
We know that Lubitz visited an eye doctor just before the flight for an apparent vision issue, and was deemed unfit to operate the aircraft. No medical professionals have reported Lubitz was suicidal at the time of the Airbus A320 accident, although a European official said he did complain to a neuropsychologist about work stress earlier this year. We also know Lubitz had a history of depression and suicidal thoughts, with a depressive episode in 2009 that halted his pilot’s training for several months. As Duesseldorf public prosecutor Christoph Kumpa told BBC News, he “had at that time been in treatment of a psychotherapist because of what is documented as being suicidal”— something it seems Lufthansa was informed of when Lubitz rejoined the program.” Also see cnn.com/2015/03/30/europe/fr … rash-main/

It seems that in every possible way what was happening with this man was somehow overlooked/simply swept under the carpet…from the airline, to the eye doctor (though even that simple thing ought to have kept him “grounded”, to the neuropsychologist to the psychotherapst.
Someone who is so depressed and mentally ill cannot really be responsible for his own actions but i don’t understand how this man could have been allowed to get on that plane. There seems to have been such a gross failure or maybe even apathy to communicate and to function expeditiously all the way down the line but again I may have been wrong in this or at least to the degree that it is apparent.

How much forethought and consideration went into or goes into what they deem[ed] as ethical behavior or lack thereof and viewing the consequences of their lack when it comes to exercising good safety policy? That goes for everyone involved.
I’ve heard that even some pilots have been known to get onto their planes after having been drinking or being drunk and apparently that is acceptable behavior? Why is that allowed to happen once it’s noticed? Perhaps just plain lunacy and fear and a failure to act when necessary…being asleep while being awake. Okay, I don’t want to derail your thread.

By most, the vast majority. It includes those who opposed Hitler militarily. I mention this since you mention Hitler as an example. And even most of those who were pacifists there, would still resort to violence to stop a rape, to repel an intruder in their homes, etc.

Morality = a behavioral standard that makes social behavior possible.
Morality is only found among social species.
It involves feelings, and evolved behavior that maintain social cohesion and the individual’s place within the group - herd psychology.
Because social cooperative unions permit the development of larger brains morality has been associated with the Divine or the superior, the absolute.
It is based on survival strategies and is selfish, but the modern prefers to think of it as divine, mystical, almost magical, not wanting to demystify it, because understanding it would reduce its effect, and if this occurs the individual feels vulnerable.

Most moral behavior is peer related, and the individual imitates what he thinks is expected of him by the others.
Within heterogeneous populations, such as the ones moderns are forced to coexist within, the enforcement of morality is a method of enforcing a rule which will maintain discipline and internal harmony.
It is not successful but requires the threat of law to support the behaviors the system considers “valuable”.

Females and weak psychologies, effete males, are always the most vehement defenders of common moral rules, because they feel the most vulnerable outside their premises.
With females the attitude is also based on female sexual roles which place her in a position of weakness while pregnant and while weening an offspring.
With males it has to do with the beta-male psychology, also explaining why some males are the most passionate feminists.

Ethics = a human encoding of said moral behavior.
To understand why ethics must promote the least-common-denominator as a virtue, or a binding identifier, you must study evolution Psychology, and consider Dunbar’s Number and its implications within a cosmopolitan heterogeneous overpopulated human environment.

So if humans would have smaller brains if they followed your without morals approach?
NOt that I disagree with the problems with these kinds of morality. IOW abstract rules with their inherent distrust of humans/life. SAdly it seems like people who argue in the way you did above tend to think, just like their opponents, that without guilt we are these little solely competition based monads. An autistic version of reality, immaculate and unreachable, and pissed off and resentful.