Where does art come from?

The relationship between intelligence and language is complex, and there are varying perspectives on how intelligence should be defined and measured. Of course, language is a significant aspect of human intelligence. Still, it’s not the sole indicator or measure of intelligence, but one of the multiple intelligences identified by psychologist Howard Gardner.
verywellmind.com/gardners-t … es-2795161

Gardner’s theory of multiple intelligences suggests that intelligence is multifaceted and encompasses various abilities, including musical, logical-mathematical, spatial, bodily-kinaesthetic, interpersonal, intrapersonal, and naturalistic intelligence, in addition to linguistic intelligence. Linguistic intelligence involves proficiency in language-related activities, such as reading, writing, speaking, and understanding spoken and written words.

Psychologist Daniel Goleman introduced the concept of emotional intelligence, which involves understanding and managing one’s emotions and the emotions of others. This form of intelligence is not solely dependent on language but involves interpersonal skills and emotional awareness.
resilienteducator.com/classroom … explained/

Non-verbal intelligence, including spatial reasoning, pattern recognition, and problem-solving skills, does not necessarily rely on language. People can demonstrate high intelligence through actions, problem-solving abilities, and non-verbal communication. Different cultures may express intelligence differently, which may not always align with a standardised linguistic framework. Cultures may value different forms of intelligence, including practical skills, social intelligence, or creative problem-solving.

I would argue that the experience of art is inherently non-linguistic and that the aesthetic impact of a painting or sculpture is felt on a sensory and emotional level. The appreciation of beauty, emotional resonance, and the impact of an artwork can be immediate, and it does not always require verbal interpretation. Art can also transcend linguistic and cultural boundaries. Paintings, sculptures, and other art forms can evoke emotions, communicate cultural ideas, or express abstract concepts without relying on linguistic symbols. Colour, form, composition, and symbolism can convey meaning directly to the viewer. While language can provide context and interpretation, people from different linguistic backgrounds can still appreciate and interpret visual art meaningfully.

Semantics is the study of meaning, and it primarily deals with how words and symbols convey meaning in a language. It examines the relationships between words, their meanings, and how these meanings are structured and conveyed in sentences. However, although semantics is a key aspect of language study, it doesn’t exclusively apply to spoken or written language. It can also be relevant to other symbolic systems, including non-verbal communication, such as gestures, symbols, or visual elements in art.

As demonstrated above, semantics doesn’t exclusively apply to spoken or written language.

It is generally accepted that, although the development of writing was not a linear process, early forms of communication likely involved simple symbols and gestures before evolving into more complex linguistic systems. Before the advent of written language, human communication likely relied on gestures, facial expressions, vocalisations, and possibly simple symbolic representations. Early humans used symbols and signs to convey basic information about their environment, such as the presence of food or the location of a threat.

Over time, human societies began to develop systems of proto-writing, which involved symbolic representations that may not have had a standardised or fully developed syntax. These early symbols could have served as mnemonic devices, recording important information or events. The transition from proto-writing to fully developed writing systems marked a significant leap in linguistic sophistication. Ancient civilisations, such as the Sumerians, Egyptians, and Chinese, independently developed writing systems to record complex information, stories, and administrative details. These early writing systems used symbols or characters to represent words or syllables.

Some civilisations, such as the Phoenicians and later the Greeks, made significant advancements by developing alphabets representing individual phonemes or sounds. This innovation greatly enhanced the expressiveness and efficiency of written communication. As writing systems evolved and became more standardised, they played a crucial role in developing complex societies, preserving knowledge, and communicating sophisticated ideas. Writing allowed for the transmission of information across time and space.

But you are putting the interpretation first, not the non-verbal impression a scene makes, which is deemed worth representing. Beauty is often ineffable, and all attempts to reproduce it are emotional responses. Beauty is often perceived as a subjective and complex experience beyond simple description. People may encounter beauty in various forms, such as nature, art, music, or even human relationships, and find it challenging to capture or articulate that experience’s essence fully. Artists, writers, musicians, and creators often grapple with the challenge of representing beauty in their work. They may use their respective mediums to evoke emotions, stir the senses, and create an aesthetic experience that resonates with others. That may be semantics, but it is not necessary language.

But here we are talking about art, and linguistic or semiotic signs are not always necessary for art. Art can encompass a wide range of expressive forms that go beyond the use of words or explicit symbols. While language can be a powerful tool in artistic expression, many art forms rely on visual, auditory, tactile, or other non-linguistic elements to convey meaning and evoke emotions.

A child’s first “re-presentation” of what presents itself, is often awe. The gaping mouth is expression enough for the impression made by the beauty that presents itself.

The relationship between language and intelligence is not “complex”, because both basically mean the same thing. Basically!

You seem to have not read my text. ALL signs are language - including mathematical numbers, functions, statistics, etc, ALL signs.

There is no such thing as “non-verbal intelligence”. Everything that an animal or a human being does non-verbally is language too, must also be understood in every process, i.e. the meaning of what is done must be understood - the semantics, and this is only language: (a) semiotic (what you mean by “non-verbal” is semiotic) and (b) linguistic (human language - non-oral and oral - it can be partly and passively understood by higher animals, but only on a semiotic level, because animals do not understand the linguistic semantics and grammar). And again: Written language is also linguistic language (if it were not, then it would only be understood semiotically - try to read/understand a text omly semiotically). Written language is based on oral linguistic language.

By the way, every intelligence test is language too, so it can also be used to test intelligence/language. It would be something like a hyperintelligence test.

You argue with “emotions” or “sensors”, but neither of them is of any use for the understanding itself, for the intelligence itself, but must also be interpreted, both by the sender and the receiver. This is also how art was created. An animal that wants to draw attention to itself does not do so without understanding, without knowledge, without intelligence, i.e. without language, in this case: semiotic language. Otherwise, the animal would not do it. Instinct is a program, and a program is also language. We hardly notice this program.

Semantics is not just about words. Even in ancient times, it did much more than that. Semantics deals with ALL signs. In linguistics, these are phone/phonemes, morphs/morphemes, words/logemes, sentences/syntactemes and texts/textemes, as well as with all characters/graphemes; in semiotics, these are all other signs, i.e. all those that are not linguistic. There are evolutionarily subordinate signs to linguistics, which are purely semiotic, and those which are evolutionarily/historically superior to linguistics, i.e. belong to metalinguistics, or to philosophy, to logic, to mathematics, and which are both semiotic and linguistic, because they can be traced back. And that is exactly what intelligence research does. They conduct language research.

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Semantics is a language discipline. It is about meanings. It is all about meanings. Von Humboldt dealt with this very intensively, as did many others, and later, for example, Sapir and Whorf. In this case, when it comes to attribution, it does not matter whether mathematics also does semantics (it does) or other disciplines do. Semantics only has to do with language, because all the others can be traced back to it - and must be if you really want to do good science. All other attempts at semantics are subordinated to the semantics of langunage science (either linguistics or semiotics), because everything can be reduced to it.

And also philosophy can make a lot of contributions here, because it comes from the meta-level, just like logic and mathematics.

There are reasons why certain branches of science are partly opposed to this, because they do not want to lose the power that they have been given, because certain people can use them to better control the mass of people.

You use a trick when you talk about “communication” to distinguish it from language. That is how you colour when you want to talk down or get rid of something. Communication is language, but not in such a way that it comes before it or stands above it, but the other way round: communication is an aspect of language - nothing more.

I have told you how language is to be understood. You do not go into it, because you always use words that distract from it. If you understand language the way I do, then it already exists before communication. Communication merely serves as a placeholder for focussing everything on information (see the lobby for computers and the internet - both of which are also nothing more than language). But language is more than information, more than communication. You in particular, who like to deal with emotions, should understand this very well. Is the influence of the media (also just language) stronger on you with regard to communication theory and therefore information theory? Communication theory and therefore information theory are good theories - I have studied them myself for a long time - but they are not enough if one wants to investigate language itself, on which they are also based.

If we go along with and believe the communication theory and therefore the information theory 100%, then we are lost, because that robs us of our humanity. And the reason for this lies in the fact that we are more than beings of communication and therefore of information. We are beings of language - like all other living beings - and we have placed ourselves above the other living beings by beginning to expand and develop language: from semiotics to linguistic (oral and written) language.

Written language is a great development, an important component of language and has revolutionised many things, first with the book, then with the Computer and the Internet, right up to artificial intelligence, which should actually be called artificial language. The alphabet with consonants is the best that has ever been developed, because it allows us to read much more effectively and quickly. In the case of the other writings, the writing itself must always be deciphered, so that there is no time to deal with what has been said much more effectively.

I am „putting the interpretation first, not the non-verbal impression a scene makes“, because your “non-verbal impression” is not non-language (the English language does - unfortunately - not have an adjective for the noun “language”). Beauty and all the other things you mentioned must be interpreted. A baby is not capabel of interpretation beauty, for example, but the beauty is there. It can only be done by interpretation, and interpretation is a matter of semantics, either semiotic semantics or linguistic semantics.

And your “art forms” that have to do with “visual, auditory, tactile, or other non-linguistic elements” are NOT non-language (the English language does - unfortunately - not have an adjective for the noun “language”), they are language, because language is always involved - in semiotic or linguistic or in both semiotic and linguistic forms.

You relate too much to things and far too little to what things do. They give impressions through the signs, which either come from themselves and are then interpreted by us (this way or this way or that way …) or are interpreted by us into them.

Your answers clearly tell me that you have not understood what I mean by language. I explained it to axtra several times and even created a signature for it. Perhaps it would help you if the English language would finally offer an ajective for the noun “language”. The English language does not distinguish between the hyperonym (superordination) “language” and its hyponyms (subordinations) “semiotics” and “linguistics”, so that many misunderstandings are preprogrammed.

Yes, these examples belong to the beginning of art.

Certain character patterns that are repeated over and over again are eventually varied to make a special impression. For example: “I’m the one who did this.” “I’m better than the others.”

I have no issue with what you wrote about language, but we are talking about art and my own artistic endeavours were almost always a representation of something that presented itself. It is mimicry, and language has no place until perhaps when I am finished with a drawing or a painting. It is a reaction to awe, the observance of a pattern, the fascination of a curve, the lure of light on an object, the smoothness of a face, and the symmetry of a body. I could accept that with time, the positioning of figures or features on a canvas could involve geometrical consideration, but initially, the object or subject of my representation is speechless.

I once drew a simple picture with a pencil, fascinated by the lines, and someone picked it up and spoke about its meaning. I was fascinated by what this person saw in what I had seen as pure lines on a piece of paper and told him that I hadn’t thought of the things he had mentioned. He told me that it wasn’t about me, but about him. This suggests that a picture’s implied or explicit significance may have less to do with the artist’s intention and more to do with our search for meaning. Which leads to the following:

I once saw a hilarious video of a child with one of these machines that repeats what it hears. The child spoke its babble, and the machine repeated the babble. with time, you had the impression that a conversation was going on, although it was just sounds, and the toddler grew red in the face and exasperated at the machine. But all the machine did was repeat the sounds back to it. Obviously, the child was looking for meaning even though it had no command over language.

We want meaning and may find it if the sender is expressing something comprehensible, but we also find meaning in something that isn’t sending a message. There was the story of radio hams convinced they had understood a message from aliens, but it turned out to be variations of white noise or the people who heard voices in a supposedly haunted house, but it turned out to be the wind. So it can also operate one-sidedly.

Fascinating, but as you see above, I am not saying that art has no meaning, only that meaning comes before language and can be one-sided. Of course, you can expand the meaning of word language to incorporate everything a person does because, as we know, we are unable to not-communicate when two people are in sight of each other. It is just that an impression I get from something that is not animate is not yet language.

It’s all very interesting, but I think you are flogging a dead horse. While communication is a common aspect of art, it’s not the only possible function. Art can also be a representation of an impulse, emotion, or personal expression without a specific communicative intent. Of course, you could say that without the communicative intent, it isn’t art for you. Fine. But as a hobby artist whose pictures hang in several houses, my experimentation with lines, colours and forms meant something to other people but nothing specific to me.

So, because someone says that a scenery “speaks to them,” you take it literally, although the language is metaphorical. The choice of words is pre-programmed and confined by convention, and I can represent something without doing anything more than following a fascination with the impression it makes. This does remind me of what Iain McGilchrist has spoken of, that the left hemisphere, which identifies and categorises things and giving them a name, has difficulty with the ambiguity of the right hemisphere, which can accept the vagueness of an impression, appreciating it only for its appearance, and seeing it not as a thing but a composite part of the whole.

Perhaps you are left-hemisphere orientated, and I am right-hemisphere orientated.

Emotions

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The mind —> thought x feelings = an outlet… for communication, for creativity, to pass time, to alleviate boredom, to declare love, to declare war, to declare death upon your enemies.

:sunglasses:

:wink:

Art… a multi-faceted multi-sensual tool, that makes us all too human.

“Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed.”
— Khalil Gibran

…or vice versa [for me…] from the arcane to the obvious / the inner subconscious-mind to the representational outer world.

Everything has two sides to it - or perhaps even more …

Ultimately yes it is language but the collective unconscious only conducts it language in the form of imagery through the mind, dreams, ideas, sudden inspiration, etc. I get it though, some words become corrupted by people’s attachment to them, god is a good example of that as well, people associate too often.

animals are attached to the collective unconscious as well but due to their inability to consciously comprehend such, nothing comes of it other than what shows as instinct.

I suppose it could be considered language but I’d more say art is like a flowing river which we do not choose to bathe in ourselves, it just shows up sometimes, it isn’t forced, it just flows naturally, universally between all things, only conscious individuals are able to utilize the imagery and externalize it though.

It can’t be only emotion because animals don’t make art consciously and they do feel. I’d argue that consciousness has to exist in the individual to externalize art.

I still have my unrelated images, impressions, and curiosity about lines, colours, and shapes. I gape childlike at landscapes, cloud formations, waves and wind. And if I pick up a brush, pencil, charcoal, or pen and imitate those things with strokes, am I communicating, or am I in a world of my own, where nobody else matters?

Both. You are in a world of your own and also since you externalize it, if you do, it can be used as a form of communicating but the meaning may be hard to interpret from others points of view because their own imagery in the mind is different to yours.

I would agree that “it can be used as a form of communicating” but does art require communication?

For the art to be understood outside of the intuition of the viewer, probably. That’s what music is or cinema. Externalized thought which is art (but with dialogue). A painting not so much, though some have captions/titles that can offer a simple explanation but they aren’t all necessary.

If I painted a sunset with trees and what not, it needs no caption, you can fill in the gaps with your own intuition to see what’s going on.

Art is the essence of communication.

The essence of communication lies in the exchange of information, ideas, thoughts, and feelings between individuals or groups. Considering art as the essence of communication reflects a broader and more abstract perspective on communication. Art, of course, allows individuals to communicate on a deeper, symbolic level, invoking feelings, sparking contemplation, and offering interpretations that can be highly personal.

Not all art necessarily functions as a direct means of communication. Some art forms may prioritize experimentation with lines, forms, and colours for their own sake, emphasising aesthetic exploration, abstraction, or the artist’s personal expression rather than explicit communication of specific messages.

@ Bob (ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.p … 8#p2925902).

It’s interesting how you keep skirting around my statements. In other words, you haven’t put forward a single argument against mine. And if you want to criticise my statements, then you have to refer to their content. But you have not done that once. No wonder, then, that you are constantly talking past me or my text, constantly circling around my statements. For example, you always refer to linguistic language when you use the word “language”, although I have now said more than twenty times that linguistic language is only a sub-area of language, that it only arises evolutionarily/historically after semiotic language and that it only arises in humans, but that human babies, for example, do not yet understand it, while older children already understand it and can use it soon afterwards. But what was before that? Language too! And that was semiotic language. Babies react to touch, to objects, to other people, etc. (= all signs, i.e. language). (= all signs, i.e. language, semiotic language!). Babies are still at home in semiotic language, as are animals (in some respects plants too, with the difference that plants can only do this with the help of chemistry). By the way, your example with the childbabi is not quite correct if you want to say that the child blushed out of shame, because you say that the child is not able to use “language” (linguistic language you should have said here).

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The smaller the language sub-area, the less room for art.
Unless one would regard the sub-areas themselves as art.
But the sub-areas are not entirely art, but only partially.

Meanings do not exist without language. To take up your example, artists must also either give meaning to things themselves, i.e. use signs (= language), or read the meaning out of things, i.e. understand signs (= language). Nothing works without meaning because nothing works without language. Meaning is exclusively a matter of language, which can be semiotic, linguistic, logical, mathematical or anything else. Practically (in life) or empirically (in science) it leads to art or technology.

It is not difficult to recognise your interpretation of language. It is the interpretation (= language) of the mainstream. This interpretation of the mainstream is a typically occidental interpretation because it only occurs in occidental culture. With my philosophy, I try to go beyond this and include the views of other cultures, and the other cultures tend to interpret things only in terms of their signs. Western culture also does this, but only “also”; it then immediately forgets that it interprets signs, because it is primarily concerned with mastering nature, natural bodies (physics is the best example of this), because it was only the bodies interpreted scientifically as details (singularities) in a typically Western way that made the typically Western technology possible, which brought the prosperity (luxury) that had not even come close to existing in history before. Western culture has reduced everything to the body in order to dominate it (it is therefore less body-friendly than body-hostile, because it wants to dominate the body) and repressed everything else, namely into the “psyche”/“soul” rubbish bin, because it could not use this repression for its unparalleled success in history.

But one realisation, which is not about success, wealth, luxury, etc., goes in a different direction

This - my - thread is about art, yes, but primarily about where art comes from, and I already answered the question on the first page, in the dialogue with Kriswest (see page 1): art comes from language.

You must try to put yourself in the position of animals or human babies in order to realise that, although they have not yet mastered linguistic language, they too interpret signs (language), in their case semiotic signs (language), i.e. recognise them, and in order to do this correctly (for the animals their lives depend on it!), they must already have learned the meanings.

So when you say you have recognised meanings without signs, you are saying something that is false. You cannot know or recognise meanings if you have not first become familiar with or learnt to recognise the signs (language) that go with them. Observe this for yourself!

Sloterdijk once said “that for humans, as finally speaking beings, the beginning of being and the beginning of language do not coincide under any circumstances. For if language begins, being is already there; if one wants to begin with being, one sinks into the black hole of speechlessness.” (Peter Sloterdijk, Zur Welt kommen - Zur Sprache kommen, 1988, S. 28, translated).

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